0:01

The fiftieth was coming.

0:03

Ah, that's gonna be gay on. Hi,

0:09

Glennis.

0:10

We are back after a

0:13

year of Wilder finishing releasing

0:15

all of its episodes.

0:17

Emily, we're back. It's been a

0:19

year since Wilder was released

0:21

into the wild, and it's been two years

0:23

since we were on the road, and three

0:26

weeks from now is the fiftieth anniversary

0:28

of the television show premiering

0:31

on NBC. So we thought it would be

0:33

a really fun time to reconnect

0:36

and sort of look back on our

0:38

whole podcast making experience

0:41

and reflect on it and also give

0:43

you guys some of the outtakes that didn't

0:45

make it into the final podcast.

0:57

Okay, So Emily, Hi, Hi.

1:01

This year because the original

1:03

premiere of Little House came out in March. As

1:05

you heard Alison say at the top

1:08

of this show, they're having past reunions,

1:10

you know, at all the different locations of the houses.

1:13

We felt left out.

1:14

We wanted to have our own little reunion, and

1:16

we're missing our fearless executive

1:18

producer, Joe Piazza because she is

1:20

off on her own other adventure or road

1:23

trip or something, who knows what, somewhere, but

1:25

she does have a little message for you, so we just

1:27

wanted to play.

1:28

That, Hey'll,

1:31

I miss you. I miss being on the

1:33

road with you. I actually

1:35

can't believe that it's been a

1:37

year since we made this podcast.

1:39

And it's funny because I've been on

1:42

the road again, traveling

1:44

on book tour for the Sicilian Inheritance,

1:46

and every single place

1:48

that I go all over the country,

1:51

people ask me about the Wilder podcast,

1:54

and people have their own stories of

1:56

Laura Ingalls Wilder and how

1:58

much she touched them and how much she inspired

2:01

them. It just

2:03

reminds me how

2:05

big Laura looms in

2:08

our collective American

2:10

imaginations and our

2:13

mythologies. She's

2:15

a force. Look, no one

2:17

has forgotten Laura, but I

2:20

do feel that we got to kind of bring

2:22

her back into the zeitgeist and

2:24

get people talking about her about

2:26

the good, the bad, the ugly, the inspirational

2:30

in a way that I

2:32

really think she would have appreciated.

2:36

I miss it. I miss you, guys. I'm

2:39

going to go watch some Michael Landon taking off his

2:41

shirt and crying.

2:42

Now it's

2:49

funny.

2:49

On my phone in the last few weeks comes

2:52

up the photo memories and can

2:54

you believe it was more than two years ago?

2:57

We were on the road for this podcast.

2:59

It keeps sending me photos of us

3:01

and just met South Dakota with you,

3:03

like with the mics and us standing in front of

3:05

the cottonwood trees and at

3:08

the pageant.

3:09

And I'm like, wow, it's already

3:11

been a year.

3:11

And then I realized, no, it's already been two years.

3:14

Yeah, and then realizing like, the

3:16

podcast has been out for

3:19

over a year, which

3:22

is amazing because it feels like another

3:24

lifetime that it came out. I don't know if

3:26

that's just the news cycle we've been living in

3:28

America this year, but it feels like

3:31

wildly distant and it was even

3:33

though it was such a huge undertaking

3:36

and such like a joyful undertaking. I

3:38

don't know. Does it feel like that to you?

3:40

Yeah, it feels like there's two separate timelines,

3:42

and there was the making of

3:45

the podcast and then the releasing the

3:47

podcast. Everything we talked about has been

3:49

so relevant in the past year with the

3:51

crazy news cycle. It's like, there's

3:53

not it really a day that goes by that I don't think about

3:55

all of the things that we saw and discussed

3:59

in the entire show.

4:00

I feel like the more distance we get

4:03

from this podcast the prouder I am of it.

4:05

It's such a

4:07

monumental undertaking and how

4:09

fortunate we were to drive around the country

4:12

and be in all those different places. So anyways,

4:14

this is basically we're doing a fiftieth

4:16

annivers three Little House in the Prairie TV Show

4:19

special episode, and also just

4:21

congratulating ourselves on a podcast

4:23

that we really read of.

4:27

And on that note, just speaking

4:29

of the road and speaking of everything that initially

4:32

surprised us. As you can imagine

4:34

listeners, there is so so many

4:37

more hours of tape than what you actually

4:39

heard go into the show.

4:40

And I think.

4:41

It's one of the sad parts when you're

4:43

making this as some of your favorite characters and your favorite

4:47

places we went to or things

4:49

that we learned just couldn't make it into the show.

4:51

I was always the one being like, can we slide

4:53

this in? Can we slide that in? And you're like,

4:56

this is one episode. It cannot be four

4:58

hours long because a

5:01

you recorded everything on the road, Like

5:03

it's not an easy thing to always have everything

5:05

miked for hours every day,

5:08

but like, we got so much good stuff.

5:10

But yeah, I think first I really

5:12

wanted to do justice to all of the people

5:14

in the towns who are benefiting off of

5:17

Laura tourism, whether that's being

5:19

dedicated to managing the houses, or

5:22

running the pageants, or even just like

5:24

the people who run the restaurants and the

5:26

cafes in this town that yeah,

5:29

they owe a lot of the most of their revenue

5:31

in the summer probably to Laura

5:34

tourism. And talking

5:36

to them, it always kind of astounded

5:38

me that they weren't sick of it, and they weren't

5:42

that you know, you saw like these usually generations

5:44

of like mothers and children

5:47

and you know, family businesses of people that

5:49

were just really dedicated to the cause.

5:52

I think there was one good example of that in Pepen

5:54

Lake Pepin and Wisconsin, the town

5:57

which was a cute little vacation town

6:00

and was.

6:00

The first place where we really began to understand

6:02

that people who lived in these places but weren't necessarily

6:05

working directly with the houses

6:07

all had positive feelings about little

6:09

House and Laura and what and what her

6:11

legacy had brought to the town, which I thought was interesting

6:13

because I could see a possibility

6:16

of or the potential to be sort of resentful

6:19

or tired of her. And meanwhile, I think everybody

6:21

loved it.

6:22

Our very first stop was this amazing

6:24

cafe, and that was where we learned to just start asking

6:26

everyone what they thought of Laura. This is

6:28

one of our initial conversations with people

6:30

to just get a sense of how the

6:33

books and living in a place that

6:35

where Laura lived has impacted their

6:37

lives and their business. And the name of this cafe

6:40

is the Homemade Cafe. Just to give them a.

6:41

Shot if you are ever they are.

6:43

They had they had great pie,

6:45

amazing pie.

6:46

Oh they had the best pie.

6:51

Well, good, good, awesome,

6:55

she's awesome show.

6:57

I'm just curious that how much how

6:59

many people through here for the house,

7:01

for the for the to get it a lot?

7:03

How do you even estimate?

7:04

Yeah, a lot, it's a lot.

7:06

Then I have a sticker on the green sticker

7:09

it says I was hit Laura's or something

7:11

like that.

7:11

And then they got that museum down here, so I said,

7:13

you know, usually they'll go water the other and then

7:16

have.

7:16

You been at the museum.

7:17

We're cutted there.

7:18

We came here first.

7:19

That's awesome. And I told

7:21

them to go down by the lake. Yeah, it's beautiful

7:23

here.

7:24

Yeah, So did you grow up like surrounded

7:26

by Laura that you were aware of her for

7:29

ever forever.

7:30

I read those books I read when

7:32

I read them when I was Yeah.

7:34

Yeah, did you ever read them?

7:38

That you ever read those books?

7:40

And did you watch the TV show?

7:41

Oh yes, I've never missed it.

7:43

Yeah, did you too?

7:44

Yeah, my mom always watched it, so and

7:46

my granddaughter.

7:47

It's all about Morgan's Yeah, it was

7:49

wed.

7:50

And the people you get here would like is

7:53

it sort of an international crowd and definitely

7:56

yes?

7:56

Oh yes, yes, yes.

7:58

All over, I said, a lot of them.

7:59

You we have the wedding wedding venues here too.

8:02

We have two big wedding venues, so I said, we get

8:04

it from all over?

8:05

Really, Oh yeah, is this like a

8:07

vacation, not a like a it's more

8:09

of a tourist It kind.

8:11

Of shuts down in the winter.

8:12

Now it's a tourist destination. It never

8:15

used to be, never used

8:17

to be. It is now we have a tourism board.

8:19

Yes, yes, is that because

8:21

of Laura or Hartley?

8:23

I'm sure in the wedding venues,

8:26

did you guys like, what did you love about Laura?

8:28

Would you ever feel like suffocated by her?

8:30

It's just sort of a reality.

8:31

No, no, I.

8:32

Loved it, but all

8:34

of it. I love the books.

8:36

Well, I just like the whole thing.

8:38

How they made.

8:39

It through all those tough times, and

8:41

you know, and they were very close family.

8:44

Yeah, you know that's hard anymore.

8:46

You don't have that a lot anymore.

8:48

Does the Mississippi Freeze is pet Lake Pepin

8:50

Freeze?

8:51

It does because that's the end of the opening

8:53

of the house and the pairs they're going across.

8:55

The frozen water. It exactly does.

8:57

Yeah, And when we were driving down but we were all remarking.

8:59

On how much bigger Mississippi

9:02

appears when you're driving beside it. Then maybe

9:04

it's huge, Yeah, and pretty

9:07

fast flowing, I think, right.

9:08

Yeah, to drive across

9:10

there with just pantrified.

9:14

Used to drive across the across

9:17

here to say thank you so much for speaking with

9:19

us.

9:19

I have a terrible voice.

9:21

You know, you have an amazing voice.

9:23

Not when it recorded.

9:26

That's what I think.

9:26

And I've made a career of making pods.

9:32

Appreciated, you

9:36

know, going to these pageants, we talked about them

9:38

putting on these big shows and

9:41

like the kids from the town playing

9:43

out scenes from the book, and sometimes

9:45

a mix between the book and the TV show but

9:48

there was also uh like fun

9:50

little communities that we encountered, Like,

9:53

I mean, we are just coming out of the Olympics, and my

9:55

favorite thing in the world is like the more niche sports

9:57

like archery, artistic swimming, these

10:00

things. I would say, like the Mansfield

10:02

Fiddle Off was my delightful,

10:05

little like niche performance competition

10:08

of the road trip.

10:09

Good morning to y'all, and welcome up to

10:12

the fiddle off contest here.

10:13

It's gonna be here out most of the day.

10:17

Remember in the fiddle competition,

10:19

there was like the there was the tiny category,

10:22

and then like the junior category, and then the adults.

10:24

And I just remember must have been like a

10:27

eight or nine year old girl going up there

10:29

and just slighing, just killing.

10:31

All, just owned the whole competition.

10:34

And also people had driven I mean, Mansfield's

10:36

not that close to anything except Springfield,

10:39

but like people had driven distances

10:41

to come there and compete. These people were serious

10:44

about their fiddle talents,

10:46

which they should be. They were incredible. Mansfield

10:48

was delightful. When I chase that

10:50

guy across the back to across

10:53

the field who was carrying pause fiddle, I was

10:55

like, oh my god, what is it like? To hold pause,

10:58

fiddle. You're just wandering around like

11:00

the most valuable and a lot of people's

11:02

lives, a lot a

11:05

lot of you think it's worth

11:08

emotionally priceless. I

11:11

don't think you could put a price on Yeah,

11:16

that's a terrible like I

11:19

can't even grasp painting.

11:21

It was also.

11:21

Thinking of remember when we were in Burr Oak

11:24

and they had the competition of the

11:27

A. Laura and Almonso competition, uh

11:30

costume competition, but that people who won

11:33

it was almost like a Miss America set up, like people

11:35

who won had responsibilities of visiting

11:37

schools like it was and bur Oak isn't

11:40

even it is so tiny, it's not even incorporated,

11:43

Like it's literally like

11:45

a postage stamp of a handful of buildings,

11:48

and they held this competition and had really

11:51

serious responsibilities to it. I just, yeah,

11:53

that should be in the Olympics. Maybe we should, like, if

11:55

they're gonna put break Dance in the Olympics, we should just,

11:58

you know, petition the Olympics to consider our

12:00

little house contests.

12:02

Yeah. Yeah. The other thing that

12:05

I still can't get over about

12:07

the road trip is we covered so much ground

12:10

just going from Wisconsin to Minnesota

12:12

to South Dakota, and then we ended up

12:14

going over to Wyoming just to take in that

12:17

stretch of the Americana of

12:20

it all. And that was the first

12:22

time I had seen that part of the country.

12:24

And besides just being

12:27

wowed by the bad lands, like I think,

12:29

I just said wow the entire time we

12:31

were driving through it.

12:33

Yeah.

12:34

Wow.

12:36

It was the first time that it really hit

12:39

me that I had only seen mythology

12:41

of America, like almost

12:43

have only seen like the bastardization of

12:45

it in old Westerns and

12:47

all of that, and I had never seen the

12:50

actual thing. And you realized,

12:52

why, oh, yeah, that

12:54

that is so amazing. I get why rich,

12:56

greedy white men just like wanted

12:58

to destroy this place and make money off of it.

13:01

But it is and which it's tragic, because it is

13:03

some of the most beautiful places I've ever seen.

13:06

America is incredible. And I mean, again, going back

13:08

to driving across it, I think we

13:11

so many Americans and so many

13:14

people around the world are sort of fed the

13:17

postcard version of it that

13:20

becomes so familiar in two dimensional

13:22

and sometimes a caricature, that when you actually

13:24

go there, to any of these

13:26

places, it is gobsmackingly

13:29

beautiful and powerful, and you're like,

13:32

oh, it is an incredible country

13:34

and it is gobsmacking and breathtaking and

13:37

seeing it firsthand feels so necessary

13:39

to me actually.

13:41

And smack dab in the middle of that.

13:43

After you get out of the bad Lands, you

13:45

get like a little bit cartoonish Disneyland

13:48

Old West location. Do

13:50

you want to tell everyone about Waldrug? Which

13:52

is maybe the thing that I'm most disappointed

13:55

couldn't make it into the show, because there wasn't

13:57

really right.

13:58

I forget that Waldrug didn't make it. So the

14:00

first time I went to Waldrug was the

14:02

first time I went to Waldrug was in two thousand

14:04

and two, before the Internet,

14:07

and the way I came to

14:09

it was west to east. And for Waldrug,

14:11

there's all these hand painted billboards for miles

14:14

and miles and miles saying like come

14:16

to Waldrug, five cent coffee, come to Waldrug,

14:18

all these things, and so the build up is so extraordinary

14:21

and you pull in and it's just this like wild

14:24

caricature of a wild West town

14:28

with all these buildings and like kitchy stuff

14:30

and that crazy dining room and

14:34

it's sort of the entryway to

14:38

rapid city, which has a bit of that same vibe

14:40

to it, that very like Mount Rushmore

14:45

kitchiness that is

14:49

very, very very American. And

14:52

also in all it's

14:55

the Las Vegas of you know, the wild

14:57

West and with all the problems

14:59

that come with that.

15:00

You're right.

15:01

I mean, you go from Wall Drug which

15:03

it does feel like the Disneyland of rest

15:05

stops, like it literally has animatronics

15:08

and if you go into the gift shop there's

15:11

there's a glass wall

15:13

and behind it is animatronics

15:16

of just old like Western Western

15:18

men, just like play in banjo and singing

15:20

a song.

15:22

When I say it's so American, it's like it's both

15:24

the what we talked about, like the extreme breathtaking

15:27

beauty and openness and

15:29

possibility and

15:32

history and

15:34

also the worst of America

15:36

in terms of the extermination,

15:39

the attempted extermination of Native Americans,

15:41

of the Buffalo, of the

15:44

natural wonders, and also the

15:46

overlayer of you know that

15:48

that kitch, that sort

15:51

of Las Vegas, but the West kitch

15:53

and so's it holds both of these things

15:55

which are both or all of

15:57

these things which are all so American in

16:00

the same place. And I think that is

16:02

the real intensity and

16:06

magic of it. And I don't mean magic in sort

16:08

of like a frivolous way. I mean like deep

16:11

magic of being out there and to

16:13

some extent, you know, I think speaks

16:16

to the enduring

16:18

a peal of Little House because

16:20

she's holding all of those things in

16:23

the book at the same time

16:25

too.

16:52

What are your feelings coming up on the fiftieth

16:54

anniversary and your fiftieth birthday.

16:57

I feel great about turning fifty. There's

17:00

something very charming for me and having the

17:02

fiftieth anniverse, Like the show premiered

17:04

one week after I was born, and so there's

17:07

something delightful to

17:09

me about having it.

17:11

It's always existed, but like it's always

17:13

been around, and I just think, oh,

17:15

it's both a short period

17:17

of time and such a long period of time.

17:20

I just had this memory of remember when we got to Desmet

17:22

and we were in the B and B, and I hadn't

17:24

watched the show, Like we've

17:26

been so heavy in prep that I hadn't seen

17:28

the show in a while. Remember when we turned

17:31

it on the TV when we were in the B and B, and

17:33

like we're immediately engaged

17:35

with it, Like immediately our heads whipped around and

17:37

we were pulled in and it's just a reminder,

17:39

like it was such a good show. We

17:42

talked about all the problems with it as problems with everything

17:44

but ban the music.

17:46

Pah.

17:48

One of the surprise takeaways for us, anyway,

17:50

when we started doing our interviews for

17:52

this podcast, which we did so many interviews before

17:54

we went out on the road, was how

17:56

many of the people who loved

17:59

the book and had written about the book and were

18:01

scholars of the book disliked

18:03

the TV show and primarily

18:05

disliked Michael Landon, which I

18:07

thought was fascinating because

18:11

obviously we talked about this. I loved both, but

18:13

Michael Landon in particular seemed to

18:15

be po His version of paw Ingles

18:17

seemed to be a flashpoint for a number

18:20

of people.

18:21

I never liked the series

18:24

ever, because it didn't look

18:26

right.

18:27

You know, Michael Landon obviously

18:29

looks nothing like Pa.

18:31

It was so clearly an ego

18:33

project for him that I

18:36

just never liked it.

18:37

I actually didn't like it because it was so different

18:39

paw In Like, I was like, who is

18:42

this clean shaven?

18:44

I just phoned Michael Landon. I

18:47

just could not relate to him. And

18:49

plus they never moved out of walnut growth.

18:51

They completely eliminated South Dakota.

18:55

You know, he's such a kind of preening presence

18:58

in a way that I think would have been horri

19:00

fine to Laura Ingles Wild. I think

19:02

she would have been dumbstruck

19:05

at that portrayal of her beloved

19:08

father.

19:12

Lover hate. What Landon

19:15

did with Charles Ingalls, like

19:17

Michael Landon is one of the main

19:19

reasons that everything still persists.

19:21

Oh, for sure.

19:22

The TV show gave the books a whole

19:24

new life and continues to do so because

19:26

it's on TV all the freaking time.

19:29

And to my atten delight,

19:33

Yeah, yeah, why it's been on my

19:35

mind is Tim Watz, the VP

19:37

candidate with Kamala Is.

19:41

He's not from man He's not from

19:43

Mancato, but he spent He's

19:46

from Nebraska, but he spent most of his adult

19:48

life in Mankato before becoming governor. Which,

19:51

as people who listen to the podcast know, there's

19:53

an entire episode where we're primarily in man

19:55

Cato, and people who watch the television show

19:58

know that they're always going to man Cato to

20:00

buy something or sell something or whatever. And

20:02

then the wagon falls off the side of the road. And

20:04

someone almost dies and like Mary's glasses

20:06

set the whole place on fire, like Mankato

20:09

figures into this as a destination. But

20:11

as I was thinking about, you know, Rebecca Tracer,

20:14

who was on the podcast, wrote

20:17

a piece for New York Magazine recently about

20:19

the different versions of masculinity

20:22

the Republicans are providing and

20:24

the Democrats are providing and talking about sort

20:26

of the Tim Waltz masculinity, and

20:29

in some ways it really reminded

20:31

me of the Michael Landon version

20:33

of masculinity. Not that Tim Waaltz is taking

20:35

off his shirt and like glossing up his pecks

20:37

or whatever, but like the masculinity

20:40

the ability to be

20:42

to provide an

20:45

idea of masculinity that also

20:47

allows for emotion and

20:49

sensitivity. And Michael Landon's

20:51

paw ingles was like, as we know and have discussed,

20:54

was crying in nearly every episode

20:56

as like a show of strength.

20:59

And it really.

21:01

It's interesting because the show itself, I think

21:03

appealed in its day to conservative

21:06

groups, and we know Ronald Reagan it was his favorite

21:09

show, but we're obviously in a much different

21:11

time of what who and what gets to find

21:13

as conservative And I was just like there's

21:16

something a little tim Waltzy about Michael

21:18

Landon's Paw Ingles and maybe vice

21:20

versa, and it seems like it

21:22

just struck me as so interesting, especially

21:24

with the like man Cato connection,

21:27

So MU should write that the Mancato connection of

21:30

Charles of Paw, of Michael Landon's

21:32

Charles Ingles and Governor

21:35

Tim Waltz running for VP.

21:36

I think we've got our finger on the pulse with this one.

21:38

And I think with the anniversary of the TV

21:41

show and Tim Waltz, maybe there's maybe

21:43

there's a whole other season here, six

21:45

Degrees of Separation, just man Cato

21:48

edition. Well,

21:51

in honor of the Vivia the anniversary,

21:53

we did just want to bring you some more snippets

21:56

of conversations we had

21:58

with the cast that all of them were

22:00

completely amazing, like

22:02

exceeded all expectations.

22:04

Also will shout out all of their books

22:07

if you have. If you're a fan of the TV

22:09

show even a little bit, I recommend especially

22:11

Alison Aringram's book. But

22:13

with Alison Aringram, I mean we talked

22:15

to her for well over an hour.

22:18

And if you're thinking of iconic Nelly Olsen

22:20

episode, a big fan favorite, that

22:22

we didn't really talk at all about in our

22:24

TV episode is Bunny Oh.

22:28

That I love that episode, Oh

22:31

Bunny.

22:31

We did talk to Melissa

22:33

and Alison about the making of that episode

22:36

and people's reactions to it, and

22:38

we're going to play some of those clips side by side,

22:41

and I love hearing them talking about it because that's

22:43

where you can also hear their deep friendship

22:45

come through. Melissa Gilbert and

22:47

Alison Aringram, despite being

22:50

very believable enemies on screen,

22:52

are the best of friends, and it delights

22:54

me every time they talk about it.

23:00

So do you hear about the most And what was your

23:02

favorite episode of the show.

23:03

Bunny where I go down the hill in the wheelchair?

23:06

I hear about Bunny

23:08

and the race. People really

23:10

dig the wheelchair push down

23:12

the hill.

23:13

That's the only time my mother walked into the family

23:15

room and said Laura seems

23:18

mean and I was like, Laura's

23:20

amazing, and my mother said, I don't think that

23:22

was a nice thing to do and then exited the room.

23:26

Well, Laura was pushed to the brink, but

23:28

I did pretend to be paralyzed and ruin

23:31

everyone's life.

23:32

In most episodes, Nellie does things

23:34

to ruin Laura's life and make her miserable.

23:37

But in Bunny's the only episode

23:40

Nelly's insane behavior

23:43

actually impact everyone.

23:45

So, yeah, she has it common. She

23:47

has it common.

23:49

And I'll tell you Alison

23:51

got her revenge many

23:53

years ago. I had to go in for a colonoscope

23:56

and she took me, and

24:00

when it was over, they wouldn't let me walk out of the

24:02

surgery center. I had to go out in a wheelchair and she

24:04

pushed it, and she kept

24:06

threatening to shove me down a

24:09

number of different hills that day,

24:11

even though I didn't. I said, I, you know something I

24:13

fault.

24:13

I didn't write it. Tell them

24:15

people let me do that.

24:17

The other thing I hear about a lot too, is the mud fight.

24:20

People like a lot when Alison

24:22

and I got physical.

24:24

We hear that from a lot of fans, and I think it

24:27

was having girls express

24:29

sort of like complicated emotions to each other and

24:31

that jealousy and competition, which felt

24:33

very recognizable at

24:35

that age.

24:37

I think the other thing that that informed

24:39

those those performances, and maybe

24:43

the audience was getting it subliminal, subliminally,

24:46

was that we really loved each other dearly. And

24:49

I've always said, you know, you

24:51

don't really have to necessarily get along

24:53

all that well with someone you're doing a love scene with, but

24:56

boy, you have to love and trust the person you're doing

24:58

a fight scene with.

25:00

We thought it was so funny because we bonded

25:02

right away, and then the idea that

25:04

regularly every few episodes we'd hate each

25:06

other in the face was like, it's

25:08

awesome, Like, oh.

25:10

Yeah, fight scene coming up.

25:11

And it was funny because like the very first fight scene,

25:13

they were very careful and there was a stunt girl

25:15

to do one of the falls so I wouldn't hit my head.

25:18

And then but like after that they went

25:21

and we pretty much were choreographic our own fights

25:24

and they just didn't need stunts for that. The

25:26

mud fights all us, they're stunk with that,

25:28

the famous mud fight. They're like, yeah,

25:30

you guys got this whatever, and

25:33

they're just like, do

25:35

do whatever the hell you want to do. And we did,

25:37

and we had so much fun, and

25:39

we thought it was so funny to play these

25:41

mortal enemies and do all this terrible stuff.

25:44

And then but it was weird because these

25:46

scenes right me saying things and she's

25:48

crying. It's

25:52

like and we're going out for slurpees

25:54

later.

26:00

Other favorite actor to just

26:02

learn more about her story was Karen Grassley

26:05

and how her she as

26:07

a person was so polar

26:09

opposite of Caroline Ingles, and

26:11

she was part part of the free sex

26:14

movement. She was in Berkeley, she was an

26:16

actor, she was like on these

26:18

things. And also I think if you read her book, which

26:20

which I highly recommend, she

26:23

talks about her entire life and if you have any

26:25

interest in you know, sixties arts

26:28

and counterculture, definitely read it.

26:30

Yeah, it was not progressive where Caroline Ingles

26:32

was. And I think it's interesting though, because I don't know.

26:34

I mean, she played the character

26:38

that was written for her on a show that was huge,

26:40

but ilo The Waltons were on at

26:42

the same time, and the mother

26:45

in The Waltons, that character was much

26:47

more feminist, you know she And so that

26:49

is one of the major issues

26:52

with Michael Landon was he was

26:54

open minded in so many ways, but

26:56

not about grown women. It's just worth

26:58

pointing that out because I think she was in a

27:01

tough position of making those decisions as

27:03

a working actor to get that show that sets you

27:05

up for life and allows a lot of choices.

27:10

The little Woman had never

27:13

been my goal, and so there

27:15

were times when the choices

27:18

offered to Carolyn in

27:20

the script wrinkled.

27:24

Let me give you an example, and

27:26

this is not at all a criticism. This

27:29

is just an example of how Michael

27:32

knew his vision and

27:35

he knew what he wanted

27:37

and in fact was well

27:40

connected to his audience. Early

27:43

on. This is Carolyn has the

27:45

scene in the morning of

27:48

finishing those braids and

27:51

getting those scrambled eggs on, and

27:53

packing those lunches and rescuing

27:56

the three year old who's climbing

27:58

up the stairs and keeping

28:01

her from putting her hands by the fire, and

28:04

finally the girls have their coats on and

28:06

their little lunches and they're going out

28:08

the door. And my reaction was,

28:12

oh, thank goodness we

28:15

did. And Michael said,

28:18

no, you look out the door,

28:20

you watch them going, and

28:23

you smile because

28:25

they're so lovely. And

28:28

that's what we did. So there

28:30

were times when I couldn't influence

28:33

what I believed about the hard

28:36

work that a mother does, that

28:40

a woman cooking

28:42

on a fire does, But

28:45

as much as I could, I

28:47

tried to influence the

28:50

way the writers would see

28:52

her, and I

28:56

was happy that in the end many

28:59

of them got it. They got

29:02

it?

29:02

What are your favorite episodes with

29:05

respect to them getting it well?

29:07

Olsen versus Olsen where

29:10

the women all go on strike.

29:13

That was our idea a friend of mine

29:15

and I, and she consequently

29:17

became a staff writer

29:20

on Little House. Yeah, I

29:22

was very proud that Chris Abbott

29:24

came on, and then I think it

29:27

was our very close to

29:29

our final show, if not our final

29:31

show, where Laura

29:34

and I have a nice scene where

29:37

we acknowledge our contribution

29:39

and she says something like they couldn't

29:42

have done it without us. But

29:44

you know, I respect also

29:47

this traditional role that women have

29:49

played, and I mean, for

29:52

God's sake, these women who helped

29:55

settle the country. They

29:58

were so strong. When

30:00

I read this book called Pioneer Women,

30:04

it said that if a

30:06

woman at that time lost her husband,

30:09

she just went on.

30:12

But if a man lost

30:15

his wife, he wrote immediately

30:18

for a Maile lord a bride because

30:20

he simply could not handle it alone.

30:27

Someone that you might not expect was as

30:29

bad as in her day as she was because she's

30:32

so perfect and loving

30:34

and warm on the show is Charlotte Stewart,

30:36

who was Miss Beetle, and we got to

30:38

meet her in Mansfield pretty

30:40

much by accident. We were in Mansfield

30:43

during Wilder days. She was kind of

30:45

the big guest that they

30:47

had, and she was there to do signings and everything,

30:49

and we got invited to a little

30:51

reception where we got to sit down and speak

30:53

to her. So we're gonna that is why this tape

30:55

might be a little noisy, the tape that we're about to play

30:58

you.

30:58

She was delightful.

31:00

Alison Arngrim, You know, she

31:02

is at all of the conventions and everything. And when

31:05

she first described to us people's reaction

31:07

to Charlotte, she said, it's

31:10

in line. It's men in eraser

31:12

Head t shirts crying to her

31:14

and telling them how much they loved her as this

31:17

beetle while they're in their full like David

31:19

Lynch, get up. Because she worked with David

31:21

Lynch.

31:21

She was a favorite of David Lynch. Yeah.

31:29

Was it strange in

31:31

the seventies to

31:34

be cast.

31:34

As sort of a very

31:37

tradition and a very traditional female role.

31:39

I meanwhile, I was smoking dope at home, yes,

31:43

and then an eraser the movie rape in m I

31:45

right about the eraser Head eraser Head, Yeah.

31:47

Well I was doing it at the same time as

31:50

I did the episode of The Waltons because

31:53

David Lynch, as a student filmmaker,

31:57

had no bounds on how late you worked.

31:59

You know, we used to shoot all night long.

32:02

That's when he preferred to shoot. We'd show up at

32:04

eleven o'clock at night and shoot all night. So

32:06

I would finish at six in

32:08

the morning, and if I had a job, I

32:11

would have to run home or change

32:13

or something and get to the studio.

32:16

So it happened to be I was doing The Waltons

32:19

at the time. So I came staggering

32:21

into Warner Brothers where they were shooting, and I

32:24

watched it the other night it was on, and

32:27

I watched it and I thought, oh no, that

32:29

scene is coming on because I

32:31

could not remember my lines. I

32:34

was so tired and.

32:36

Like playing if you were saying, like playing

32:39

like a traditional misfeto was fairly

32:41

traditional and then and

32:43

then, but you were like a brown up woman

32:46

in the seventies, an actress in Hollywood.

32:48

I mean, that just feels like I'm sort of night

32:52

and day.

32:52

I'll tell you I was more connected with rock

32:54

and roll than I was Hollywood.

32:57

I was never very popular in Hollywood at

32:59

the time that I got the

33:01

part I had a clothing store called

33:03

the Liquid Butterfly. It was on Santa

33:06

Monica Boulevard, and it

33:09

was rock and roll the across

33:11

across the hall. I was in a building

33:13

on Los Angele called the Pure

33:16

Thoughts Building, and it

33:18

was the office of Elliott Roberts,

33:20

who managed Joni Mitchell, Neil Young,

33:23

Crosby Stills, Nashing Young, you

33:25

know, Jackson Brown. So I

33:27

was in the middle of rock and roll for

33:29

a lot of that time because I was dating

33:31

the agent that

33:34

managed them all. So I was backstage

33:37

at rock and roll more than I was in Hollywood.

33:39

I never was in Hollywood. I never got invited to

33:41

any Hollywood parties.

33:44

You know.

33:44

And then when I got Little House on the Prairie, it

33:46

was like people in Hollywood went, what

33:50

little House on the what? Oh

33:52

how boring? Well guess what, we're

33:55

still on the air. Yeah.

34:01

Yeah, we got put down a lot. Really

34:03

oh yeah, and we got put down a lot.

34:06

But also because I.

34:07

Mean people still today are like, oh that was so wholesome

34:10

and a little too mushy, but like it tackled.

34:12

Some big issues. And I meet people

34:15

all the time who I

34:17

remind them of when they used to watch the show

34:19

with their grandparents, you know, and they

34:21

get very emotional. Good.

34:29

We drive to Memphis tomorrow evening

34:32

and then we're going to Graceland Sunday.

34:34

To four hour drive.

34:35

But we flight.

34:36

It's hard getting flights back and forth to New.

34:38

York to this area.

34:39

You know.

34:39

I worked with no

34:42

I did what was that?

34:43

Like?

34:43

I did a movie called Speedway, and

34:46

I have been a guest at Graceland. It's

34:48

pretty amazing. It was in the sixties. I was

34:51

expecting something totally different.

34:53

I thought he was going to be this, you know, look

34:55

me up and down and be with his

34:57

guys. You know, it's on trush. Nobody

35:00

was there. He was by

35:02

himself. Colon Parker wasn't even there.

35:05

So it was a director and me and a

35:07

girl that was playing his girlfriend in the scene.

35:11

They were in a convertible. They come to a drive in and

35:13

I wait. I'm a waitress and I wait on

35:16

them at the drive in and

35:18

he's ordering all this special stuff and I burst

35:20

into tears and tell my

35:22

boyfriend. You know, my boyfriend, he can't

35:25

afford anythinking of you, you know. Anyway,

35:27

he ends up paying for my wedding, and it gives me

35:29

a big wedding and all of that stuff. So

35:31

it was fun. We were there always worked with him for

35:33

two days. And what he did was

35:35

when we broke from

35:38

shooting the drive in, he

35:41

went over and sat down, and I don't know what happened

35:43

to the girl. She took off somewhere and

35:47

he asked the assistant director to bring over another chair

35:49

and he sat sat it down beside him and

35:51

he said, come here, and I sat

35:53

down and he took

35:55

my hand and he started telling me about his mother.

36:00

WHOA And I'm sitting

36:02

there. I'm twenty five years old. I'm,

36:05

you know, young enough to remember him

36:07

as a big, big, big deal. And

36:10

do you tell me about Gladys and when

36:13

he went in the army and they wouldn't let him come home

36:15

to see her when she was sick. And

36:18

I was like, holy shit, Elvis

36:21

is holding my hand.

36:24

Yeah, needed someone to talk to.

36:26

Honestly, that was because

36:29

we were there.

36:30

I was there.

36:32

Wow.

36:40

It was funny that we found out

36:42

we had absolutely no clue she had ever worked with Elvis,

36:44

and we were actually going to be on our way to Graceland,

36:47

like in the next day or so.

36:50

What do you think was your favorite part

36:54

of doing this whole podcast. That's

36:56

a big question, because this is.

36:57

A yeah, I'm

37:00

I mean the road trip, my favorite part was

37:02

going to a random place, even the places

37:04

that were a little more out of the way, like pass

37:06

South Dakota or going

37:08

from Missouri over to Tennessee.

37:10

When we would just start having conversations with

37:12

someone, make sure in every conversation

37:15

to bring up lor Engles Wilder, and usually

37:17

someone did have a connection with her. It was the

37:19

serendipitous thing of yeah,

37:21

she is everywhere.

37:24

Yeah, I'm trying to think what my favorite part was. I

37:26

think my favorite part was I think

37:28

Pepin surprised me the most. And

37:30

then our drive from

37:33

Heuron to Buffalo, Wyoming

37:35

because it's the emptiest part of the country, and when

37:37

Ranger Tanya actually was

37:39

one of my most favorite parts of our road

37:42

trip because I think she was such a surprise and such

37:44

a delight. And so that's

37:46

the word I'm looking for, reaffirming or.

37:49

I'd like to begin.

37:50

Where I'd love to begin is in fourteen ninety

37:52

two, Pelma says the

37:54

ocean blue, a four hundred year resistance up.

37:57

Until this is like a bravery

37:59

to the way she was, you know, talking

38:02

about the history at the Battle of Little

38:04

Big Horn site, and she's just she was so

38:06

delightful when she got on the podcast with us, So she was one of

38:08

my favorite parts. And then I think in the

38:10

recording when we moved to CDM Studios

38:13

in terms of like actual work experience

38:16

and having such a high end facility

38:19

and working with such kind people, like, I think

38:21

it comes through on the podcast that we're actually

38:23

in the recording of it, we're having a lot of fun too,

38:25

and working with so many people who took such

38:28

great care to make sure that the

38:30

product was high

38:32

quality.

38:33

Yeah, I do want to give a big shout out to all

38:35

of our amazing producers and editors and

38:37

mixers that worked on this, because I'll

38:40

say it a million times, podcasts are not easy

38:43

to make, especially this kind of podcast, and it

38:45

takes it really does take a village. And Yeah, coming

38:47

into CDM and immediately getting

38:50

more ears on things and

38:52

more opinions is always

38:54

a good thing. It shows you where you're where you're

38:57

coming through, not coming through. It gives you validation

38:59

that like, yeah, this is interesting.

39:01

It was such a team effort and

39:04

everyone on the team took such great

39:06

care with the whole podcast. There's so much

39:08

depth to all of the

39:11

intelligence and attention to detail and

39:14

determination to make this really

39:16

good that came through in

39:18

the final product that

39:20

I just want to make sure that people are aware

39:23

like this this was a huge undertaking

39:25

and everybody involved in it was willing

39:28

to go the distance with it, which is

39:30

amazing because, as Joe and I talked

39:33

about endlessly, that

39:35

degree of support, you

39:38

know, is rare, not just in podcast

39:40

world, but in like media,

39:43

creative or otherwise in general, and so we were so

39:45

fortunate to be able to have

39:47

that backing for this project

39:49

which needed it.

39:51

Yeah, yeah, I'm so grateful that we got

39:53

to make this and then it gives us a chance to sit here

39:55

and chat. So thank you for chatting,

39:57

Glennis.

39:59

This was so and thank you to everyone

40:01

who listened to this podcast and provided feedback

40:03

positive or otherwise. It's so gratifying

40:07

to have something you worked this hard

40:09

on be engaged with, and.

40:12

We're so.

40:15

Thankful that people have taken

40:18

the time to listen to it. This is not this isn't

40:20

this podcast isn't undertaking as a listener

40:22

too, So thank you everyone. We're

40:25

just we wanted to come back and follow up basically

40:27

to say that like, here's extra

40:30

stuff, and also we're so grateful that it resonated.

40:40

Thanks everyone for listening.

40:42

This episode was hosted by Glennis

40:44

McNicol and me Emily Maronoff.

40:47

It was produced by me mixing and mastering

40:49

Gune.

40:50

I'm a Heath Frasier.

41:16

Now and now. It can never

41:18

be a long time ago. It's just two

41:20

years ago.