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0:56

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1:39

right now.

1:55

Hey, guys. Hi.

1:58

Welcome back too. violating

1:59

community guidelines with

2:02

Britney and Sarah. We're back, guys.

2:05

We are. And we're front too.

2:06

I'll show you a

2:08

back and a front.

2:09

We well,

2:11

I guess there's actually no gap in recording.

2:14

because this comes out every Monday. Yeah. I was gonna

2:16

say we're back. Yeah. But it's you guys

2:18

listen to this every Monday. So But

2:20

the

2:20

real fans do. You betches. It's like

2:22

how, you know, like, back in the day, they put, like,

2:25

commercials in between. So, like but if you watch

2:27

it just, like, on, like, a streaming service, there's just,

2:29

like, that weird gap where the commercial would have gone,

2:31

but they, like, fade to black, and it's, like, you'll

2:33

never know the killer.

2:34

The killer is, you know, okay, the the

2:37

the the son. next

2:38

week. It is next week. Alright,

2:41

guys. What are we talking about today? We're talking

2:43

about True Crime, which Of

2:46

course.

2:46

As per usual, we have some disclaimers. Mhmm.

2:49

First of all, being both of us are sensitive to light

2:51

today. Yeah.

2:52

up up up up up

2:54

Yeah. So

2:56

we're we're looking super sick and cool

2:59

wearing sunglasses inside. Mhmm.

3:01

And they fix the AC in this room, so

3:03

you guys don't have to look at us sweating through our

3:05

little skinny t shirts and things like that. Exactly.

3:08

Yeah. Alright. There is a serious

3:10

claimer though, because obviously, when we're

3:12

talking about true crime, there are lot

3:15

of variables at play. There's a lot of controversy

3:17

around the popularization of

3:19

True Crime online and whether

3:21

or not it should

3:22

be, you know, a part of pop pop culture the

3:24

way that it is.

3:25

So it's a sensitive topic given that the

3:27

more recent, the tragedy, the more painful it

3:29

is for the victim's families, obviously, especially

3:32

when it's an ongoing investigation. Yeah.

3:34

So we in no way are attempting to sensationalize

3:37

or

3:37

make jokes of these situations at all.

3:39

We're

3:39

more aiming to discuss and we're interested in

3:42

why True Crime intrigues us -- Yes.

3:44

-- as human beings and Internet

3:47

users specifically -- Yeah. -- because the Internet

3:49

has really helped this

3:50

become a widespread phenomenon of,

3:53

like, consistently, the most listened to podcasts

3:56

are comedy and True Crime. Yeah. Which

3:58

is like, why? What is it about

3:59

wanting to drive to work and listen to how someone

4:02

was violently murdered? Yeah. And it's crazy that it's

4:04

also like hybrid now. Like, a lot of the top comment

4:06

podcasts are about murder, which is

4:08

scary in itself. I know it. Not

4:10

scary, but

4:12

definitely

4:13

a point of intrigue, what do you say?

4:15

Yes. So we wanna get that out of the way because we

4:17

know

4:17

the Internet Warriors the keyboard warriors

4:19

will that'll be the first comment if we don't address it.

4:21

And

4:21

we obviously agree. You know, this is we're

4:24

coming at this from an angle of

4:26

analysis and interest

4:29

as as to why this has happened,

4:31

not so much that it's happened. Yeah.

4:33

So -- Mhmm.

4:34

-- get that out of the way for you bitches.

4:35

also feel like this is a little bit self

4:37

explanatory. There's just there's gonna be mention

4:40

of murder and suicide, so those are sensitive

4:42

topics for you. Maybe

4:43

skip on this one, guys. Yeah. Or skip to

4:45

the end when we do the ad reads. Absolutely.

4:48

Maybe don't be as loyal this time.

4:50

Yeah. But we're gonna start

4:52

talking about true crime a little bit about it.

4:54

Do you wanna take it away or should I? I'll take it away,

4:56

Khazo? Alright. Actually, you

4:57

take it away Khazo. Alright.

4:59

True Crime is a non fiction

5:01

literary podcast and film genre in which

5:03

the author examines an actual crime and

5:05

details the actions of real people associated

5:07

with and affected by criminal events. The crimes

5:09

most commonly include murder, about forty percent

5:12

focused on tales of serial killers. I mean,

5:14

I've I couldn't imagine a podcast doing well when

5:16

it talks about like famous tax evisions. Sure.

5:18

Actually, though, white collar crime is interesting. Yeah.

5:20

Well, now that I said that out loud, I'm like, I I would

5:22

love to, like, hear about, like, enron and stuff like

5:25

that. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Next week.

5:29

Oh, what color crime podcast comes out?

5:31

It is interesting to

5:33

rich people play by a different set of rules in

5:35

in life. Yeah. I think that's very interesting.

5:37

So yeah.

5:38

It is really crazy. And so continuing

5:40

on true crime comes in many forms

5:42

such as books, films, podcasts, and television

5:44

shows. Oh, yeah. I love that. It's

5:46

also in the newspaper sometime. Many

5:49

works in this genre recount high profile

5:51

sensational crimes such as the John Bené Ramsay

5:54

killing, John Wayne Gacy, BTK killer,

5:56

and OJ Simpson murder case. and the

5:58

Pamela's smart murder while others are

6:00

devoted to more obscure slayings. True

6:03

crime works can impact the crimes

6:05

they cover in the audience who consumes it The

6:07

genres often criticized for being insensitive

6:10

to the victims and their families and is described

6:12

by some as trash culture. Yeah. I equate

6:14

it to, like, You know, you would never

6:16

go up, nor would you ever be in situation

6:19

where you could go up and ask someone.

6:21

Damn,

6:21

your daughter got murdered Yeah.

6:23

-- what happened? Yeah. That is so

6:26

you can't do that. I know. Like, dude,

6:28

so I heard that your daughter got, like,

6:30

allegedly stabbed by her husband. Is that Correct?

6:32

Yeah. It's like that's so awful

6:34

to ask them about that. How many times? And you tell

6:37

me. Yeah. And you tell me pictures? Did she bleed

6:39

out? It's just like you can't.

6:41

Yeah. But there is this insatiable need

6:44

to know. Yeah. And

6:47

and I think that it's just rubber necking -- Yeah.

6:49

-- the nth degree. It's rubber

6:50

necking and we've somehow made it

6:53

culturally

6:53

okay where

6:55

there's an avenue where you can

6:56

ask those questions and have that

6:58

curiosity and you get the answers. Yeah.

7:00

So I get it. definitely get it. I

7:02

do too. I feel like it's kind of similar thing

7:04

that what happens with, like, Internet or celebrities

7:07

are, like, Internet influencers were, like, these people

7:09

are no longer real. Yeah. So, like, you can

7:11

ask, like, sort of, invasive questions, but

7:13

you realistically would never ask that

7:15

anyone in real life. Right. Or

7:18

or that's how it happens online as we get comments

7:20

that are just so are you out of your

7:22

mind while you say that to someone? and

7:25

it's because of that. There is a scream -- Yeah.

7:27

-- literally in between you and them. They just

7:29

don't real like, I was talking about this other day.

7:31

This is Si Bar, but like I went on a day with

7:33

a girl one time who said that her sister

7:35

hated me, and she had me blocked. And

7:38

so at the end of the day, she Facetimes her

7:40

sister and her sister's just like, yeah, I

7:42

don't like you. And I was like, you're not

7:44

joking. And was like the

7:46

thing is, he's like, this woman, like, it was it

7:48

the thing like, it I understand if you don't

7:50

like my content, but like imagine, like,

7:53

imagine you're on a date with someone and then

7:55

someone's like, yeah, my sister went through, like, your social

7:57

media to twenty seventeen. She hates you. Like,

7:59

that'll be into

7:59

yourself maybe by the way. That'd be such a weird thing.

8:02

She went

8:02

on a day with you just to be able to say that to you.

8:04

Yeah. My family fucking hates you, dude. Oh,

8:06

dude. Yeah. Sometimes I see, like,

8:08

influencers were, like, they took a picture

8:10

with someone, and then the person, like, who posted the

8:12

pictures, like, I fucking beat this person. were

8:14

like, what's your name again? I just recognized you from

8:16

TikTok. Yeah. That's the worst. Yeah. It's so

8:18

humbled. I know it's like that one time

8:20

at VidCon. This girl came out to me. She was

8:22

a very sweet girl, but she's like, I love your music. And

8:25

I was like, I have

8:27

never saying like, for like, ever

8:29

before You just gotta say

8:30

thanks to the picture and girls.

8:31

Yeah. You know?

8:33

But, yeah, so back to True Crime, it just feels

8:35

like these people ask these questions because they're

8:38

cannot they don't understand that these people are

8:40

real. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. It's

8:42

also I mean, again,

8:44

this is a common theme on

8:45

this podcast is we really

8:47

encourage touching grass. We

8:49

encourage leaving the confines

8:51

of your mother's basement -- Yes. -- swiping

8:53

the crumbs from your neck period. Yes.

8:56

And seeing the sun. During the dead, Yes.

8:58

We really encourage that. You know, put them out and

9:00

do down. It's gonna be okay. And

9:03

part of that is, you know, there are certain

9:05

social customs online that have somehow

9:08

become normal. Yeah. Shit

9:10

like that. Yeah. Or the comments under something

9:12

like this, if complex or NPR

9:14

posts something like

9:15

serial killers are up, Twenty

9:17

percent. Yeah. And one of the comments is

9:19

like, why is he kinda hot?

9:21

Yeah. It's like you could never this

9:24

would never have been allowed to

9:26

flourish if the Internet weren't there.

9:29

So Imagine your aunt got killed

9:31

and you're in the courtroom and your friend turns

9:33

to you because she's there for emotional support and she's

9:35

like, why is be kind of hot. That's hot

9:37

at all. You'd be like, can you just, like,

9:40

keep that thought to yourself, like, gonna

9:42

kill you. Yeah. But

9:44

I kind of understand, like, true crime that talks

9:46

about very old crimes -- Yeah. --

9:48

or, like, if you're talking about the Hindenburg and

9:50

making jokes, I'm, like, I'm okay with that.

9:52

But the idea of someone who maybe got murdered

9:54

last year and you're like, you know, she shouldn't have been

9:56

what like, I'm like It's just not yeah. What

9:59

what it's not the

9:59

comedy you think it is. Yeah. even

10:02

things like the black Dahlia murder where it's like don't

10:04

even know their identity. Yeah. It still feels kind

10:06

of it feels okay to talk about

10:08

it, but it still icky because it's like that was a

10:10

human being. Yeah. It's still it's

10:13

some level of permission, but it's still like

10:15

yeah. So Anyway, keeping

10:17

all that in mind. I'm gonna

10:19

go into the history of,

10:21

I guess, morbid

10:22

curiosity. That's really what it is.

10:25

So the

10:25

human obsession with morbid curiosity dates

10:27

back pretty far around,

10:30

like circa sixteen seventeen, and

10:33

please forgive me. Jiang Ying

10:35

Yu, the book of Swindles, which

10:37

is a late Ming Dynasty collection of stories

10:39

about allegedly true cases of fraud.

10:42

This is sixteen hundreds. Mhmm. Hundreds

10:44

of pamphlets, broadsides, chat books,

10:46

and other street literature about murders and

10:48

other crimes were published from fifteen

10:50

fifty to seventeen hundred in Britain as

10:52

literacy increased and cheap new printing

10:54

methods became widespread. They varied

10:57

in styles. some were sensational. While others

10:59

conveyed a moral message, so I get that.

11:01

You know, you wanna maybe retail in

11:03

a dramatic way something that's happened to teach lesson

11:05

to kids -- Yeah. --

11:06

or to whatever. to, like, be safer.

11:09

Most

11:09

were purchased by the Artisan class and

11:11

above as the lower classes did not have the

11:13

money or time to read them. I didn't

11:15

know how old. Ballads were also

11:17

created, the verses of which were posted on walls

11:19

around towns that were told from the perpetrators point

11:22

of view in an attempt to understand the psychological

11:24

motivations of the crime. Oh my

11:26

god. Imagine making a musical

11:29

of your slaughtering. Blake. And then it's doing

11:31

well. Yeah. If it's written from a point

11:33

of view of

11:33

your murderer. You kick mommy and wake

11:36

up and say this is, like,

11:38

you're killing

11:38

people. It's Broadway. Sarah Shower's

11:41

murder. That's ridiculous. That's actually

11:43

kinda crazy. That is really

11:45

oh my god. To understand the psychological

11:48

motivations of the crime. Yeah. Because if anything,

11:50

we need to sympathize

11:51

with the killer. Yeah. I I don't

11:53

understand this. Why would they do this?

11:55

I don't know. The whole premise

11:57

of sounds of the lambs. Mhmm. I'd why

11:59

don't you

11:59

do it? I've never actually seen that. Really?

12:02

That's the one with the lotion in the hole. Yeah.

12:04

Yeah. And the Jodie

12:05

Foster in the hole. Wait.

12:07

Was

12:07

it Jodie Foster in the hole? Yeah.

12:09

With the lotion. She had to cover self in lotion? No.

12:11

I don't think so. Wait

12:12

a note. It was in the hole. Doesn't he you I

12:14

just said he didn't I've never seen it. I've

12:16

seen holes love that. Anyway,

12:19

let's keep going. I don't even know what I talking

12:21

about just now. We were talking about sorry.

12:23

We had to cut because Bringing out hit by a car.

12:26

Yeah. No. No. We were talking about who fell in the

12:28

hall and it's Brooks Smith. Oh, yeah.

12:29

Yes. God. So what was

12:32

the Jody Foster that was put in motion No.

12:33

Brooks Smith is the oh my god. I don't

12:35

even know if that's the actor. Brooks

12:37

Smith played Hannah Montana's mom.

12:40

Brooks Smith is not Jody Foster,

12:42

which Wait. That's

12:44

Brooke.

12:47

Brooke Shields. You're thinking Brooke Shields

12:48

is different from Brooke Smith. Brooke Smith is

12:50

AII just her face looks like any

12:53

any other white woman. Oh. I couldn't

12:55

describe her. She's just like me for real. Yeah. But

12:57

she's brown hair. Oh. Mhmm. So

12:59

starting in eighteen eighty nine, Scottish lawyer William

13:02

Roughhead wrote and published his

13:04

script. He used

13:06

his teeth. and published

13:08

essays for six decades about notable

13:10

British murder trials he attended, with

13:13

many of these essays collected in the two thousand

13:15

book classic crimes. Love that one.

13:17

Classic crimes. Everybody knows them. I feel like

13:19

it's in one of those, like, huge books, like,

13:21

the -- Yeah. -- the world record books. What is

13:23

it? Rippley's? Yeah. Or the Rippley's believe

13:25

it or not thing or, like, the Guinness World record. There's,

13:27

like, pop ups in it. Yeah. It's just like a murder scene,

13:29

but there's like a pop up.

13:30

Oh. There's a puzzle that you have to do.

13:33

Yes.

13:33

It sings on

13:34

certain page. from the perspective

13:37

of the murderer

13:38

to teach us a lesson in psychology. was

13:41

so an American pioneer of the genre was

13:43

Edmund Pearson. who was influenced in

13:45

his style of writing about crime by Dequinci. Pearson

13:48

published a series of books of this type start

13:50

starting with studies in murder in nineteen twenty

13:53

four, and concluding with more studies in murder

13:55

in nineteen thirty six. Murder and more murder.

13:57

I like that he didn't go murder too. Yeah. He

13:59

went more

13:59

murder stuff. too. It's

14:01

real this time.

14:04

The forward of a nineteen sixty

14:06

four anthology of Pearson Stories contains

14:09

an early mention of the term true

14:11

crime

14:11

as a genre.

14:12

TRuman Capote, Capote, Capote,

14:14

Capote, Capote.

14:16

Cayote. Mhmm.

14:16

Non fig his nonfiction novel in Cold

14:18

Blood published in nineteen sixty five, is

14:21

usually credited with establishing the modern

14:23

novelistic style of the genre and

14:25

the one that rocketed it to great profitability.

14:27

Also, I

14:29

wanna read this first of all. I've never

14:32

read it. Uh-huh. Feel like it's terribly hard to

14:34

read. Probably.

14:35

It's not old English nineteen sixty four.

14:37

I do. They were still pretentious back then.

14:39

It's using a thousand words to

14:41

describe, like, someone's dress. Yeah.

14:43

Murder. Like, there's like a thousand words

14:45

in the book. Also,

14:48

Stanley didn't include this in the research

14:50

since

14:50

it's fiction, and we're focusing on non fiction.

14:52

But

14:53

Even before, in cold blood,

14:55

authors like Arthur Conan Doyle and Edgar Allen

14:57

Poe really incorporated that morbid

14:59

curiosity and, like, subject matter. into

15:02

their works. I mean, when you think about Sherlock Holmes

15:04

solving these criminal mysteries and edgar Allen

15:06

posed like the raven and all of his famous poems

15:09

or so dark. And that's why people like

15:11

them. And that's why even

15:14

Alfred Hitchcock and things like that, it's just

15:16

so influenced by that -- Yeah. --

15:18

just crime and just dark

15:20

nature of the human spirit. I think that

15:23

it deserves a notable

15:24

mention. Obviously, we're not it's not true crime,

15:26

but it's

15:27

cool to see how

15:28

real life events, not

15:29

cool. Let me retract that.

15:31

It's interesting to see how real

15:33

life events and the horror

15:34

of what humans can do to each other.

15:37

has

15:37

inspired and

15:38

intertwined with what becomes popular

15:40

and pop culture -- Yeah. -- you know, of of inspiring

15:43

movies and and fiction books and

15:45

things like

15:45

that. Even music. I mean, it's really

15:48

interesting. You know, we what

15:50

we find inspiration

15:51

in. So thought that was Obviously, we wouldn't

15:53

include that because it's fiction, but it's still interesting.

15:55

Yeah. I think about that all the time with, like, doctor

15:58

shows -- Yeah. -- where, like, you have to

15:59

I have, like, a doctor like, probably

16:02

advise, you know, what you're writing because it just

16:04

could quickly not make sense. Yeah. But I imagine,

16:06

like, the doctors are, like, telling, like, actual stories

16:08

that they've encountered. you know, and I'm like,

16:10

oh, that's know, my butt plug being

16:12

stuck in my butt could inspire the next

16:15

house episode. Right. Right. Oh,

16:17

that would be So cool.

16:20

I actually inspire at an episode of House.

16:22

Oh, yeah. Or like lawnmower SBU. It always

16:24

is like it's this is like based off a true

16:26

story, but not it's an That's yeah. Yeah.

16:28

The victim was found with a Elmer's glue

16:30

stick in her hole. Yes. Yeah.

16:33

So there are forms of distribution gonna

16:35

make me mad about magazines. Magazine,

16:38

the first true crime magazine, true detective, was

16:40

published in nineteen twenty four. It featured a fairly

16:42

matter of fact accounts of crimes and how they were solved.

16:45

during the genre's heyday before World War two,

16:47

two hundred different true crime magazines were

16:49

sold on newsstands. That's simply too much.

16:51

Two hundred? Yeah. with

16:53

six million magazines sold every month. Well,

16:55

I guess, you know, people are eating it up.

16:57

The covers of the magazines generally featured

16:59

women being minist in some way by

17:02

potential crime criminal perpetrator, but

17:04

the scenarios being more intense in the nineteen

17:06

sixties. Just once. I mean, being minuses.

17:08

Yes. I mean, it's always like to see.

17:10

What is, like, the, like, the sixties

17:12

were, like, the decade of love, but just, like, all

17:14

the True Crime gets horrific. Actually, dude,

17:17

there's so many there's so many horrible things that

17:19

happened in the sixties. Yeah. because, like, hitchhiking.

17:21

Yeah. That's crazy. I went on a day with

17:23

a girl who said that she's hitchhiked in the past

17:25

year. And I was, like, there's Oh my god.

17:27

Who am I dating? But like

17:29

Yeah. Maybe not that some introspection needs

17:31

to go

17:31

on. But, like, I was like, do you like, have

17:34

you ever, like, Like, have you ever

17:36

heard of murder? You know? Yeah. I would be too

17:38

scared. Was she ugly?

17:39

No. No.

17:42

They don't like the ugly ones. III

17:44

think they go for, you know Anyone.

17:47

Yeah. As long as they're hitchhiking. That's

17:49

true. I feel like also around

17:51

this time just historically

17:54

speaking. Look,

17:55

pop culture historically, was

17:58

this like creature from the black lagoon

18:00

-- Mhmm. -- king kong, things

18:02

like that where it's always a woman getting,

18:04

like -- Yeah. --

18:05

gripped by the big

18:07

gorilla or whatever. It's

18:09

like The damsel in distress. It is.

18:11

You know? But they die. Yeah. You

18:13

don't die in distress. Like a dunstan distress.

18:16

Yeah. Because, like, if you saw, like, a honestly,

18:18

if a man got, like, picked up by a large ape

18:20

and, like, kill. I'd be like,

18:22

damn. He's dead. Yeah.

18:24

No one's

18:25

gonna save him.

18:26

There are books on true crime,

18:29

often center, the sensational, shocking,

18:31

or strange events, particularly murder. Even though

18:33

murder makes up less than twenty percent of

18:35

reported crime, it is present in most true crime

18:37

stories. Yeah. Because what the fuck? Yeah. Imagine

18:40

like a book of jaywalking. Right.

18:45

Look shop looking for Walmart. Yes.

18:48

Let's hear about that. unless you're teaching me

18:50

how to do it.

18:50

Yeah. Typically, these book reports

18:53

on a crime from the beginning of its investigation to

18:55

its legal proceedings, serial killers have a highly

18:57

profitable subgenre. Some

19:00

true crime works are instant books produced

19:02

quickly to capitalize on popular demand.

19:04

These have been described as more than formulaic

19:06

and hyperconventional. Others

19:08

may reflect years of thoughtful research and inquiry

19:11

and may have considerable literary merits.

19:13

There is Norman Mailers, the x executioner

19:16

song from nineteen seventy nine, which was the first

19:18

book in the genre to win a Pulitzer prize.

19:20

Wow. That's that's really something.

19:22

treatment Capote is in cold blood, the best selling true

19:25

crime broke of all time. It details the nineteen

19:27

fifty nine murders of four members of the clutter

19:29

family in the small farming community of

19:31

Holcomb, Kansas. The armpit of

19:33

America. And the what's that

19:35

called tornado alley? Kansas?

19:38

Yeah. Yeah. Is it crazy? The

19:40

US is the only country with all

19:42

natural disasters. Sounds

19:43

about right.

19:44

Yeah. And, like, it's crazy what you have to

19:46

worry about. I've never worried about a tornado,

19:48

but hurricanes definitely. Yeah. We had

19:50

to worry we had tornado drills in

19:53

North Texas.

19:53

Really? Yeah. What'd you do for him?

19:56

Slow down.

19:58

walk outside and

19:59

just let the Lord take you. Honestly,

20:01

I don't live next thing. No

20:04

worries. It's a tornado siren inside.

20:07

Shoot at it.

20:10

Anne rules the stranger beside me

20:12

about ten buddhi. I'll get Oh my

20:14

god. We could do a whole fucking episode on

20:16

people's obsession with Ted Bundy. Yeah.

20:18

They're like it's kind of crazy

20:21

to me why women are like they're

20:23

like they're hot. Like, why would you say

20:25

that he's hot? Yeah. You know, he killed women?

20:27

Yeah. Like he would've been a victim, babe.

20:30

I think he's not hot. I think that they're just,

20:32

like, I could change him or, like, he wouldn't kill

20:34

me. You know? Like Or It's the I

20:36

think it's the charm and charisma. It's

20:38

it's that yeah. It's, like, I would be the one -- Yeah. --

20:40

new phone

20:41

with or whatever. Yeah. That, like, romantic

20:43

sizing of

20:44

Yeah.

20:46

He would kill you. I'm so sorry. You

20:48

would be dead. Holy

20:49

fuck. Who was I talking to? Who was

20:51

I talking to? Curry. Curry. Oh my god. Okay. We were

20:53

on tour and we were at I think it

20:55

was West Palm Beach. That girl who came up to us

20:57

and she was like, yeah, I went I flew down

20:59

here from Wisconsin. Yeah. And she they

21:02

used to rent like, her school used to rent out.

21:04

That's right. Jeffrey Dahmer's apartment. And he used

21:06

to kill people in. They would throw parties there.

21:08

god, dude. You that is fucked up.

21:10

That's wild. I know. I was, like, that

21:13

that was fucking wild to hear. Yeah. I

21:15

guess, what else do you do in Wisconsin though? eat

21:17

cheese and party and dover doors apartment? Tivicau.

21:20

Oh, I guess you could. Yeah. Tractor Tipping.

21:22

My I had a vine one time about Cal

21:24

Taping because my grandma the

21:26

cows were laid down in, like, the winter, and then

21:29

the cat would come lay where the cow was because it

21:31

was warm, but then the cow would return to where it was

21:33

sitting. and the cat was crushed

21:35

up against the cow. It died. But like Simply

21:38

move. Yeah. Move. Sorry.

21:41

armor

21:42

Where does a cow eat lunch? At

21:45

the

21:45

at

21:47

the cow emcafic? At the

21:49

calf

21:49

batirae. I was almost I was

21:51

almost there. I'm so sorry. I was hit with a shovel

21:53

when I was a kid.

22:02

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25:06

that

25:09

edit

25:12

Okay. Anyway,

25:15

it's some more

25:16

notable books. are

25:18

Eric Larson's the devil in the white

25:21

city, which is crazy tea.

25:23

What is it about? It's about h. h.

25:25

Holmes. who if don't

25:27

know about h h Holmes, he was, like, a serial

25:29

killer in the

25:30

active in Chicago. in

25:33

the late eighteen nineties around the world's

25:35

fair. Uh-huh. And there is

25:37

an incredible series of

25:39

episodes on HHH holmes on the podcast

25:42

last podcast on the left. Have you ever listened to

25:44

them? No. It's three

25:46

comedians, male. Uh-huh. and

25:49

they are so funny. And what I appreciate

25:51

about them is is they pick these old ones, you

25:53

know, like the old eighteen nineties. Like, obviously,

25:55

no one's

25:56

alive who could remember it.

25:57

But it's not so much

25:59

making

25:59

fun of it. It's making fun of

26:02

him as a serial killer. Like, you are

26:04

such a loser dude. Yeah. You're gonna

26:06

like, this is what you dedicate your life too. Mhmm.

26:08

And he was a swindler and all this. It's it's

26:10

very

26:11

I mean, I the first time I listened to these episodes,

26:13

was

26:13

driving on my way to work at my

26:15

awful insurance job. And I

26:17

was crying laughing to the point where I had to

26:19

pull over on the side of the road because couldn't see. I was

26:21

laughing so hard. Yeah. Like, it is Oh, my

26:23

god. It's so good. I can't recommend it enough. So if

26:26

you I mean, obviously, you're you're listening

26:28

to this episode, you have an interest somewhat. Yeah.

26:30

know, true crime. I would really recommend

26:32

her because he sucks. First

26:34

of all, ACH Holmes -- Uh-huh. -- and then, god,

26:37

some of the shit he got up to. Yeah. Crazy

26:39

man. He did eat how many people did

26:41

he kill? I don't know, but he built this. It's

26:43

called the murder hotel -- Uh-huh. -- which is what AHS

26:46

hotel was kind of based on Wait. The CECL

26:48

Hotel is in Los Angeles. That's

26:50

different. So hotel

26:53

is based on the CECL Hotel. 0T0

26:55

yeah. The AHS? Yeah.

26:57

Tea. Well, I mean, slept. Uh-huh.

27:00

There's a bunch of

27:01

in the murder hotel, H. H. Holmes,

27:03

he would hire contractors to, like, build

27:05

certain parts of this hotel, fire

27:08

them, say that their work was insufficient or

27:10

whatever. They would and then hire other

27:12

contractors. That way, he never had to pay anyone

27:14

-- Awesome. -- like your work is sub par. built

27:16

this entire hotel doors that led

27:18

to nowhere, stairs that led to secret

27:20

rooms, like

27:21

vaults, chambers, like very

27:24

scary rooms that no new no

27:26

one hey. Yeah. No one knew how to

27:28

get to. And

27:31

he would like kill people and

27:32

leave their bones in there. And when he was finally caught

27:34

or if he died, I don't remember.

27:36

Oh my god. When the police found this hotel

27:38

-- Yeah. -- wild. Wild.

27:40

really it's

27:42

that a shit where it's like, how does the human

27:44

brain even come up with

27:45

how to hurt people in that way?

27:47

Yeah. I mean, I assume it's like asbestos

27:50

in all the mercury and this and I would

27:52

agree. They're applying, like, lead

27:54

directly to their eyeballs. Dude,

27:58

if the boomergen duration has, like, lead

28:00

poisoning. Can you even imagine their parents?

28:02

Oh my god. I'm surprised they can

28:04

speak. No. Yeah. Like,

28:06

you know what I always think about. If you

28:09

were a murderer back in the day and you got caught,

28:11

you're actually a fucking idiot. Yes. It

28:13

was it was so easy. It was no,

28:15

like, fingerprints and, like, if

28:17

they got, like, your fucking if no. There was

28:19

no, like, DNA. So, like, if they got your fingerprints,

28:21

you'd like Yeah. Yeah.

28:24

Yeah. You had to wanna get caught. Yeah.

28:26

Back then. Because it was so easy, probably.

28:28

I know. And then it's just so fucking stupid. You'd

28:30

actually wear stupid.

28:31

Yeah. Anyway, I really recommend

28:34

last podcast on the left there. They're really funny.

28:36

In two thousand six,

28:38

Associated content stated that

28:40

since the start of the twenty first century, the genre

28:42

of writing that was growing the quickest

28:43

was True Crime. The majority

28:45

of readers of True Crime Books are

28:47

women. Go figure. And there are lots

28:49

of interesting analyses that I

28:51

found online and also what Stanley

28:53

LinkedIn here.

28:55

And there is a book by Laura Broder

28:57

in which she says, the interviews I

28:59

conducted with a group of True Crime fans

29:01

suggest that many of them read True Crime

29:03

to help themselves cope with the patriarchal

29:05

violence they have encountered in the past

29:07

and

29:07

fear in the present. Yeah.

29:10

Absolutely. Yeah. Like, I mean, I could

29:12

understand if you're trying to, like,

29:14

learn how to be safer. Like, it makes sense that

29:16

men wouldn't care as much -- Yeah. -- because they

29:18

run at night with headphones on and no

29:20

Mace. Yeah. because they don't have to worry about

29:22

it. So, like, it's just a way in a,

29:25

like, a way to, like, arm yourself with,

29:27

like, knowledge. Absolutely. Yeah. It's arming yourself with

29:29

knowledge.

29:30

And

29:31

as a sense of not

29:34

comfort, but I guess being seen

29:36

-- Yeah. -- you know, like, that that fear you have

29:38

of going out alone

29:40

-- Yeah. -- is valid because this

29:43

shit happens. Mhmm. And I think that

29:45

it's important to talk about, but I think that the level

29:47

as with anything. Mhmm. Internet

29:49

has taken it to a level that is

29:51

ah

29:53

dismissive of the original intention. Yeah.

29:55

You know, like, it's it helps to be

29:59

in

29:59

the know of how

29:59

these people do it. You know, like and

30:02

I see it on TikTok all the time of putting

30:04

zip ties on someone's car, to mark

30:06

that car, to know, like, follow her when

30:08

she leaves her she leaves her job at this time. Yeah.

30:10

That shit. Like, these are all employees that people like

30:12

this use when they want to harm someone. and

30:14

they don't have to think about it. So, of course, it makes sense,

30:17

but it's also like and then they did

30:19

what? Yeah. And where was their

30:21

body? Shit. I mean, there

30:23

is like some good advice from like true crime

30:25

people. Like, I some lady was

30:27

like, you know, if a man is asking you for help,

30:29

he's probably gonna do something horrible. Yes. because

30:31

men literally never asked for help. Exactly. A man

30:33

comes up to you in the grocery store parking lot,

30:35

and he looks like able-bodied. And he he's

30:37

like, can you help me with the groceries? A man

30:39

doesn't even ask help, like, ask for to work.

30:42

A man doesn't even ask for directions or why

30:44

would he help you with his fucking, like, ask

30:47

need help with groceries. You know what I mean? Why would

30:49

that be where

30:49

he stoops down to -- Yeah. -- for help.

30:51

Very valid.

30:53

We talked about books. There's also

30:55

films and television. True crime documentaries have

30:57

been a growing medium in the last several decades.

30:59

I would say consistently number one on

31:01

Netflix. Yeah. one of the most influential

31:04

documentaries in this process was the thin

31:06

blue line directed by Errol

31:08

Errol Morris. Mhmm. This documentary, among

31:11

others, features Reenactments. And

31:13

although other documentary filmmakers choose not

31:15

to use them since they dramatized the truth

31:17

-- Yeah. -- this one for

31:18

whatever reason did use it, Other

31:20

prominent documentaries include Paradise

31:22

Lost, the child murders at Robin Hood

31:24

Hills, making a murderer which was crazy.

31:27

Internet was wild when that came out. Mhmm.

31:29

The jinx and the keepers. The keepers,

31:32

dude. What is the keepers? Oh my god. It's

31:34

about abuses within the Catholic church

31:36

-- Uh-huh. -- and murders.

31:38

Yeah. It is oh, my it's one of those,

31:41

like, when there's religion attached to it Yeah.

31:43

That scares me shitless.

31:44

Yes. And the abuse that some of these women

31:46

went through is just

31:47

missing women, stuff like that nuns

31:49

-- Yeah. -- like nuns and school children.

31:52

wild. Mhmm. So dark. So

31:55

anyway, there's so many more. In the early nineteen

31:57

nineties, a boom of True Crime films began

31:59

in

31:59

Hong Kong as well. Podcasts,

32:02

if

32:03

you wanna take that?

32:04

So, yeah, podcast with the True Crime

32:06

theme are a recent trend. The twenty fourteen

32:08

True Crime Podcast serial broke podcasting

32:10

records when it achieved five million downloads

32:12

on iTunes quicker than any previous podcast.

32:15

As of September two thousand eighteen, it has been

32:17

downloaded more than three hundred forty million times.

32:19

Did you ever listen to this? No. It

32:21

was wild. I think I listened to my favorite

32:24

murder because my ex did, and so we just

32:26

would listen every time it came out. But kind of

32:28

stop listening because I love.

32:31

Love is a strong word. I like them,

32:33

but they spend a solid Okay. Best

32:35

people who ramble. They spend a solid

32:37

thirty minutes of the beginning of the podcast just

32:40

talking about themselves. I'm like, get to the point.

32:41

Yeah. No. I would yeah. That was a reason

32:43

why I stopped listening. I feel like the difference

32:45

though is when you structure it

32:47

as, alright, we're gonna

32:50

tell you guys about -- Yeah. this

32:52

thing

32:52

and we have this prepared for today.

32:54

you know, it's like get to it. But

32:57

the more it grows and the

32:59

more that their personalities come through, I

33:01

get, well, maybe they were just listening to

33:03

fans. They were like, I wish you guys would just talk about

33:05

it in a week's more. We get that comment a lot. Yeah. And it's

33:07

like we live together. I don't there's nothing to talk

33:09

about. Yeah. Like I saw you in a memorial

33:11

yesterday, today. Leaving the bathroom?

33:13

Yeah. And then you had to walk by the bathroom.

33:15

Yes. And there's really nothing to discuss there.

33:17

my eyelashes melted off. I'm sorry.

33:19

Yes. So I feel like that is and

33:22

that

33:22

happens with a lot of I don't

33:24

know. I appreciate a podcast which is why

33:26

we wanted to do something like this that teaches

33:28

-- Yeah. -- you know, or informs.

33:29

And if there's room for banter

33:32

there is, but I agree with you about my favorite

33:34

murder. I was

33:34

like, Yeah. I just think, like so

33:36

the they basically tell, like, about,

33:38

like, murders and it's, like, a story. You know?

33:40

Like, imagine if someone was, like, I have to tell you

33:42

the story. of Jamin a Ramsay. But

33:44

here is thirty minutes of what

33:46

I did this week, and I totally understand that they

33:48

were probably listening to fans, but you're like, Alright?

33:51

Yeah. What is happening? But, yes, they

33:53

seem like nice people, and I'm sorry, guys.

33:55

Yeah. They were I would say, though,

33:58

cereal was

33:59

a

33:59

trendsetter in itself to really

34:02

popularize true crime. Yeah.

34:04

And and tap into that market that I

34:06

feel like in the podcasting space no one really

34:08

had before. My favorite murder

34:10

was the first to make it like a

34:12

comedy -- Yeah. -- which is

34:15

on paper, so awful. Yeah.

34:17

But, I mean, one of the most successful podcasts

34:20

ever. I don't argue. So they tapped into

34:22

some market there as well that no one had

34:24

done before. So it's it's interesting

34:26

to see how it develops. Mhmm.

34:28

I like I know I've definitely bought

34:30

their book. So, like, they probably make a lot

34:32

of money. We should write a book. We should. Yeah.

34:34

Trico's fucking good. They can't even read. I was gonna

34:36

say we have to learn how to read first. Damn. Yes.

34:40

Anyway, it has been so serial was one

34:42

of first ones like we said. It's been followed by

34:44

other True Crime Podcasts such as Dirty John,

34:46

which was Wild too. What is dirty John?

34:48

Dirty John was about just

34:51

this dude named John. People killed in a porta

34:53

potty.

34:54

It's so funny. It's

34:56

funny.

34:59

You're not wrong.

35:02

Just this, like, crazy dude named

35:04

John in some podunk town. Yeah.

35:06

It's a wild story.

35:07

And it

35:08

was just some guy that went out there. One of those

35:10

ones where

35:11

they go out and just talk to Rednecks and kinda do

35:13

fun of them. But it's like there's something deeper

35:15

here. Yeah. My

35:16

favorite murder,

35:17

last podcast on the left, That's why

35:19

we drink up and vanished. And then

35:22

podcast series such as cults, female

35:24

criminals, and minds eye, someone knows

35:26

something and many more. Mhmm. Podcasts

35:28

have now expanded to more sites such as Spotify,

35:30

Apple Music,

35:31

YouTube, where you can find. Alright. Podcasts.

35:33

You like to subscribe. You guys wanna leave

35:35

a comment. and

35:36

many more. They exist to provide others an easy

35:39

way learn

35:39

about True Crime murders and mysteries because

35:42

why

35:42

would I wanna learn it the hard way? Yeah. You

35:45

get murdered. You get murdered. I

35:46

learned it the hard work done. Yeah. Spotify

35:49

has an expanding number of True Crime Podcast

35:51

with Rotten Mango, Conviction, American

35:53

Panic. bet of lies, catch and kill among

35:55

many more. This genre has been on the rise

35:57

as psychologist Amanda Vicery said

35:59

her report found women were most drawn

36:02

to True Crime Stories that gave them

36:04

tips for spotting danger and staying alive.

36:06

Period. Yeah. It's been speculated that

36:08

fear could play a role in the popularity of True

36:10

Crime Podcast. What's that thing? Keep your

36:12

friends close for your enemies closer? Yeah.

36:14

Like information about serial killers?

36:16

Yeah. Yeah. These podcasts often and

36:19

recount horrific crimes which triggers the fear response

36:21

and the release of adrenaline in the body. Oh,

36:23

you guys are all adrenaline junkies. That makes

36:25

sense. You guys should try skydiving. That's why you

36:27

guys wanna listen to us, talk about Bronie's.

36:29

Yeah. Entrell, and she's okay.

36:31

So

36:35

the

36:35

camera is Due to the

36:37

possibility of binging podcasts, adrenaline

36:39

rushies can be experienced in quick bursts. Another

36:42

explanation of the popularity of true crime podcast

36:44

is due to the serialized nature of crime in

36:46

which events happen one after another as

36:48

we could follow. Yeah. Yeah. Podcasts

36:51

that explore a crime episodically can

36:53

utilize this aspect in their storytelling. Yeah.

36:56

Mhmm. So

36:57

the real life impacts, which,

37:00

I mean,

37:01

is

37:03

how do you define it? Because there's so

37:05

many you know, are these stories

37:08

inspiring people to repeat

37:09

them? Yeah. Are they

37:12

fear mongering. Mhmm. Are they

37:14

really, you know, just inspiring people to be more

37:16

well protected? Yeah. It's a

37:18

whole different it's a whole

37:21

spectrum of, like, how

37:24

something this dark can

37:26

affect the human psychology. When you listen

37:28

to it like that, so On Monday?

37:30

Yeah. No. It's crazy. So the investigative

37:33

process of the True Crime genre can lead to changes

37:35

in the cases being covered. which

37:37

is wild. Yeah. When you get the Internet involved,

37:40

which we did an an episode on -- Mhmm. --

37:42

crime solved by the Internet. Yeah. I just wanna listen

37:44

to that too. Very interesting. such as

37:46

when Robert Dursett seemingly confessed to murder

37:48

in the documentary, the jinx, and was arrested.

37:51

Like, what? In the middle of an ongoing investigation.

37:53

A study conducted in twenty eleven in Nebraska

37:55

showed that consuming non fiction

37:57

crime shows, aka true crime, is correlated

37:59

with an increased fear of being a victim of

38:02

crime. As the frequency of watching true

38:04

crime shows increase, support for the death penalty

38:06

increased, while support for the criminal justice

38:08

system decreased. because

38:09

you see how fucking flawed it is. Yeah.

38:12

Oh,

38:13

that is so fucking should that wait.

38:15

Wait. Wait. Yeah. I'm at increased fear of being

38:17

a victim of a crime. I don't know I feel

38:19

like I'm trying to think about back before True

38:21

Crime. I mean, I was just always super afraid

38:23

of men too. Yeah. Like even before

38:25

that, I don't I actually can't gauge if the

38:27

severity of, like, my fear of men has been

38:29

great. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think it's

38:31

you're told from even being a little girl, you know,

38:33

to be cautious --

38:36

Mhmm. -- of where you are and who's around you

38:38

and men men aren't taught that. Yeah.

38:40

So this

38:41

definitely I talk about this

38:43

with my mom sometimes because I don't know if you

38:45

have any living grandparents? No. My

38:47

grandparents are very my grandma

38:50

and Mammi,

38:50

in particular, is so

38:54

terrified -- Yeah. -- of the world. Uh-huh.

38:56

And I don't know if we've discuss this

38:58

on the podcast before, but the worldview

39:01

that old people are fed -- Uh-huh.

39:04

-- via Facebook and via Fox News.

39:06

and even CNN, I mean, they're all the

39:08

same, is so not

39:10

realistic. Yeah. And if you don't have the brain

39:12

power, or the knowledge

39:15

to get online and get a

39:17

more accurate depiction of, you know, how

39:19

the world is. even though the Internet is not much of an upgrade

39:21

because of doom scrolling -- Yeah. --

39:24

like, that is such a terrifying mental

39:27

state to exist in. at all times.

39:29

Yeah. My grandma is constantly sending me

39:30

Facebook links. So if girl abducted

39:33

here, they're using this,

39:35

don't if they put a twenty dollar bill under your

39:37

windshield wiper, they're trying to kill you. Yeah.

39:39

They're gonna put you in the van. Yeah. If you

39:41

don't want to get you in that van. That's

39:44

so, like, maybe it's Tuesday on

39:46

a it's ten AM.

39:46

It's a Mazda. A day just gonna

39:49

be. It's not a van. Yeah. He was driving

39:51

an SUV. So it's, like,

39:53

to constantly live in that state

39:56

of -- Mhmm. -- and and to worry

39:57

about, you know, your daughter or your grandchild

39:59

is I can't imagine and it such

40:02

a warped view -- Yeah. -- reality.

40:05

That is wild -- Mhmm. -- that old people

40:06

are obviously victims of it. Yeah.

40:08

But that world view is curated

40:11

for them. Yeah. It's it's wild. So I

40:13

think that we're kind of victims of that as well

40:15

-- Mhmm. -- as women or, you

40:17

know, Yes. Yeah.

40:19

I think, like, also, they weren't raised

40:21

with the Internet. So it's just, like, it seems like

40:23

they're being bombarded with, like, horrific

40:25

stuff all the time. That's also a lot of people

40:28

who are, like, on the Internet now. Like, it's, like,

40:30

there are a lot of horrible events happening,

40:32

but the thing is is that they probably happened in the

40:34

same amount. It's just like now we

40:36

know about them. Exactly. You know, your gram

40:38

gram used to live in complete ignorance,

40:41

you know, bliss. But little did she know there's probably

40:43

like four murderers in her town? Right. Yeah.

40:45

Yeah. Oh my god. Have you ever looked at that

40:47

predator like map? Yeah. Oh my god.

40:50

Finding out how many people are predators

40:52

in your fucking Which I didn't know. It's

40:54

crazy. Yeah.

40:56

But who live around

40:58

the school? Yeah. Wild. Well, I guess

41:00

they can't. If you're a registered

41:01

sex offender, you can't live within what

41:03

many miles of a school? I think it's like a hundred

41:05

feet.

41:07

The thing is is like,

41:08

you do you is it any kid? Because I

41:10

imagine walking down the street must be difficult

41:13

even if it's not near a school. If you see

41:15

a child you have cross the street, I

41:17

mean,

41:17

I see proteins and I always cross the street.

41:20

that's out of fear. Yeah. Out of want.

41:22

Your ankles are so thick. Stop.

41:24

Please. This is a hair.

41:26

I'm doing my hot co walk. Why is your body lumpy?

41:30

There is criticism obviously on the true

41:32

crime genre has been criticized as being disrespectful

41:34

to crime victims and their families,

41:37

other Jack Miles believes that genre has a high

41:39

potential to cause harm and mental trauma

41:41

to the real people involved. Yeah. Like, sometimes,

41:43

I'll see something that I don't know how to feel.

41:46

Like, Okay. So on TikTok, like, the

41:48

best friend of someone who's been murdered,

41:50

will, like, post this, like, funny, like, poking

41:52

fun of like, you know her, like, she would have wanted

41:54

this. I'm coping with humor. And while coping

41:57

with humor is a valid thing to do, and I

41:59

don't imagine that the rest of her family is

42:01

as well. Yeah. So Yeah. Just because you

42:03

cope with humor, like, I feel like you should probably

42:05

not Yeah. You know? Or

42:07

just joke privately in your own home. Exactly.

42:09

Close it on the Internet because that shit does not

42:11

go away. Yeah. And once it's out there, you can't

42:14

take it back. So that is

42:16

yeah. I see that a lot. Or

42:18

they use like a viral audio

42:19

to talk about some of the most horrific

42:22

trauma. Yeah. ever

42:24

seen. Yeah. So it's

42:27

interesting. True crime media can be produced

42:29

without the consent of the victim's family, yeah, which

42:31

can lead them to being reached commentaries. Yeah. Dude,

42:33

imagine scrolling. I mean, I already, like,

42:36

get kind of nervous when I'm scrolling my for you page

42:38

and I see a video about you. And

42:41

and it's used to be murder herself. I thought I

42:43

was literally always like a good thing or like,

42:46

I saw, like, a video of, someone who was at,

42:48

like, an airport, like, baggage claim, and they saw

42:50

you and video deal. Sure. I'm just, like, I'm

42:52

I'm nervous that someone's gonna, like, I don't know, do

42:54

something weird talking about you. And it's, like, usually

42:56

a nice thing. But I imagine, you

42:58

know, it could easily crossover if, like, it's negative.

43:00

It's just, like, uncomfortable to see. Yeah. Yeah.

43:02

Yeah. Mhmm.

43:03

the

43:05

I don't think that you're a murderer. Yes.

43:07

Go ahead. I know. No.

43:10

You'll never get that happen fast.

43:11

That smell in the house. just think it's

43:13

your bathroom. Just don't open

43:14

that closet door if you don't mind. Mhmm.

43:16

Depending on the writer, True Crime can adhere

43:18

strictly to well established facts and journalistic

43:20

fashion or can be highly speculative. Ryder's

43:23

can selectively choose which information to present

43:25

and which

43:25

to leave out in order to support their narrative.

43:28

Artist

43:28

have offered

43:29

Fact based narratives, blending fiction, and

43:31

historical reenactment. I've always found

43:33

those to

43:34

be so cheese.

43:35

Yeah. Like,

43:37

the reenactments of or

43:39

the the

43:40

Yeah. You ever watch those haunting

43:42

shows where they're, like, fly manner? Oh,

43:45

I don't know. Oh, are you talking about, like, true hunting?

43:47

Or, like, real people

43:49

recounting? I lived at this address

43:51

and it is so haunted. Yeah. This would

43:53

happen. and they find people that

43:56

look kind of

43:56

like the real person and they completely reenacted.

43:59

It's like, the

43:59

faucets

44:00

would turn on. and then you see dramatically

44:03

like, a

44:06

dish would fly across the room and then you

44:08

see it. Yeah. Like a woman being like,

44:11

it's just like You ruined it. You

44:12

blew it. Well, it's like the same thing with, like, civil

44:14

war reenactments. Like, they fire the guns

44:16

and they drop and you're like, I

44:18

mean, this is cheesy, you know.

44:20

much more believable. Who

44:22

is your little guy? He's

44:25

shooting with a cannon, with the bander in

44:27

his face.

44:28

Like, the thing is is are

44:30

you talking about, like, how it's like a reenactment? I

44:33

I hate when they blend fiction and,

44:35

like, historical, like, Quentin

44:37

Tarantino does that a lot with this movie as he did

44:39

that for Ingory's Basterds -- Mhmm. -- where, like,

44:41

it was, like, a fictional way that Hitler

44:44

died and I was me Brad Pitt wouldn't

44:46

He wasn't actually if his

44:48

accent in that movie is atrocious, that

44:51

is a blend of like four different Southern accents.

44:53

Yeah. Appalachia is so easily,

44:56

like, you can whatever. But yeah.

44:58

Like, I'm like, this is kind of cheesy.

45:00

I feel like because it's obviously like him trying

45:02

to be, like, this is what I would do in this situation.

45:05

Right. Like, it's like, oh my god. Yeah.

45:07

Yeah.

45:07

Prove it. Yeah. Show us.

45:09

Go back in time. But so there

45:11

is the true crime Internet community, the true

45:13

crime community. Sometimes I just

45:15

lick this microphone. Why did

45:17

I do that? Sorry.

45:18

Studio one. One time

45:19

I kissed my mom on the mouth and I accidentally suck

45:21

my tongue out. Why did so why would you say that?

45:24

I don't know. I just felt like I should be honest.

45:26

Okay. She No one was asking

45:28

for her. was a kid. So sometimes referred

45:31

to as the True Crime fandom

45:34

is an online community which focuses

45:36

on mass murders, serial killers,

45:38

and similar criminals. This is gonna be

45:40

weird. Okay.

45:41

whenever someone's like, there's like a mass murder and

45:44

it's two people, I kind of I'm like, is

45:46

it? You know, and maybe I'm too literal

45:48

about the situation. I assume

45:50

masks is, like, more than ten.

45:53

Oh, you mean when there's only two victims?

45:55

Yeah. Like,

45:57

if you say a mass murder and many people

45:59

usually attend a mass.

46:00

Catholic

46:01

mass? Yes. It's at least

46:03

two hundred people. Oh, oh, No. But I

46:05

just I saw didn't know that is just

46:08

more than one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

46:10

I guess that is -- Yeah. -- a few

46:12

murder.

46:13

Yeah. A few murderer. Few murderer.

46:16

So notable subjects of focus include

46:18

Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Eric Harris,

46:20

Dylan Klebold, James Holmes, and

46:23

Oh. Do you

46:23

know what Jesus?

46:24

the the car there are

46:27

many

46:28

you get Russian name? I just said, like, bug you

46:30

backwards or something.

46:31

I summon someone.

46:33

There's too

46:33

many z's. There's only one. Okay.

46:35

And

46:38

then Stanley comments, l people. Yeah.

46:40

I agree.

46:40

The history of the True Crime Community can be

46:42

considered a pre internet phenomenon that was

46:45

later brought to light by the Internet. Can

46:48

you say that?

46:50

Hibristia,

46:52

the sexual attraction to those who have committed

46:54

some form of wrongdoing is a well known

46:56

phenomena. although the exact reason

46:58

behind

46:58

why it exists is unknown. I can tell you,

47:01

mental illness. Yeah. And tumbler

47:03

dot com.

47:05

Wait. That yeah. So there's an actual word for being

47:07

attracted to people who are like murderers. Hey, Bristolia.

47:09

Just

47:09

gave some of your bitches an identity. The

47:13

true crime community notably flourished due

47:15

in part to the nature of websites such as

47:17

Tumblr, which allow easy sharing

47:19

of materials related

47:20

to the true crime community, which

47:23

I mean,

47:24

I wonder

47:25

how Tumblr reacts.

47:28

Yeah. Like

47:28

like executives at Tumblr, like,

47:31

We got the tenfunny fan fiction doing crazy

47:33

right now. Hashtag tenfunny fan. Just

47:35

the number one trending. Like, it's

47:37

trying to delete it.

47:40

So the wait wait wait. There are

47:42

characteristics. The True Crime Phantom

47:44

shares many characteristics with other subcultures,

47:46

notably in the way of fan works such as writings

47:49

and fan art focused around its

47:51

subjects. Dude, when I was on Tumblr, I

47:53

literally used to see And

47:54

don't question what parts of the Internet I

47:57

was on because

47:58

Lord knows I'm I have my fingers in all of it.

47:59

Yeah. Richard Ramirez,

48:02

fan art. Oh, yeah. Like,

48:04

what's the night stalker -- Yeah. --

48:06

night something? because they thought

48:08

he was hot. And there would be gifts on

48:11

my dashboard of,

48:13

like, him and court -- Yeah. -- with handcuffs

48:15

and people being, like, why does he look --

48:17

Yeah. Like,

48:18

you're that's insane.

48:20

Genuinely, what is that? Like, you we've

48:22

said it, like, earlier. Like, you is you think

48:24

that you're gonna be the only person not killed by

48:26

this person? Right. Or, like, is it, like, how

48:29

mail validation is so intoxicating to

48:31

the point where like must be it. A powerful

48:33

man in, like, the most literal sense and that he kill

48:36

people. Yeah. Like, you want him to like you?

48:38

Yeah. That you're the

48:38

exception. Something about you is different.

48:41

He would pick you. I don't know. But

48:43

it's also, like,

48:44

the Bonnie and Clyde nature of it all. Yeah. You

48:46

know, maybe that adrenaline

48:49

and that life on the

48:51

edge sort of lifestyle is attractive.

48:54

Yeah. don't know. Uh-huh. You know, that

48:56

that's been talked about in music for

48:59

for a century, you know, where it's like,

49:03

he's on you're on the run with your

49:05

boyfriend. Yeah. dropped the bank. He did something. I

49:07

don't know. Even like Beyoncé did a a -- Yeah. --

49:09

the money

49:09

and Clyde sort of attribute her in JZ.

49:11

It's like I there's something, I

49:13

guess, romanticized -- Yeah. -- that's romantic

49:15

about that. Your boyfriend standing trial

49:18

-- Mhmm. -- and he's your boy for and y'all

49:20

love each other.

49:21

He skinned three people alive. Yeah.

49:23

But not many reports. Yeah. But

49:25

he loves me. He would never do

49:27

that. He is not capable of love. You

49:31

mirror his love back to me. It's real

49:33

sweet.

49:41

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49:41

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54:29

This aspect has proven controversial as it

54:31

has been equated by some to an equal equal

54:34

to realizing criminals. Yeah. Yeah. This

54:36

claim is I've seen so many fan edits on

54:38

TikTok of, like, criminals.

54:39

I'm like, oh my god. I

54:41

get it if it's white color crime because

54:43

it's like fuck yeah. You cheated the system or

54:46

like you stole from a corporation or whatever.

54:48

Like the the white man celebration

54:50

of like a Jordan Bellfort. Yeah. I

54:52

I kind of understand that. But when

54:54

it's literally a Ted Bondi

54:56

-- Mhmm. What are we doing, dude?

54:58

Well, I think white color crime could, like, easily,

55:01

like, you know, it's a systemic issue sometimes

55:03

too. So that could be, you know, I

55:05

don't I don't even I I think it's just yeah.

55:08

Yeah. Yeah. What did

55:09

you just say about Tenpony? When

55:11

people are making edits of Ted Bundy. It's

55:13

like, what are we doing? Yeah. That's not

55:15

anything that I can even remotely

55:17

start to understand. Yeah. Other than you think

55:19

he's physically attractive, but it's not just that.

55:22

it's it's you think that him as a

55:24

person and what he did is -- Yeah. --

55:26

I don't get it. Yeah. Ted Bundy looks like he could work

55:28

at, like, six the most ever

55:30

kind of ugly. Yeah. He's so ugly.

55:32

And the fact that they use Zach Efron to explain

55:34

him, I was like, that's what are you doing? Yeah.

55:37

Doesn't make any sense. The claim

55:39

is typically countered by the claim that the fanization

55:42

fancies fascination is rooted in criminology

55:44

as opposed to an ulterior motive.

55:46

Mhmm. It's definitely

55:48

both. Subfandoms, there's

55:50

the Colombine massacre. The Colombine massacre

55:52

of fandom is one of the largest, oldest, and best

55:54

known examples of the true crime he

55:57

killed teenagers, focused

55:59

on the April twentieth

55:59

nineteen ninety nine mass murder of Columbine High

56:02

School in Columbine Colorado by Eric

56:04

Harris and Dylan Kleibold.

56:06

Participants in the fandom are commonly

56:08

known as column binders. Jesus Christ.

56:10

And are typically younger individuals who associate

56:12

with Harris and Kleibold as immediately misunderstood

56:15

by the world. They were which they were just bigots.

56:17

Yeah. Every, like, every time there's, like, a documentary,

56:20

like, it you know, they were bullied. No. They

56:22

were bigots. Yeah. Yeah. You

56:24

you were a hateful person -- Yeah.

56:26

-- to do something like that. As if

56:28

and I've also been bullied and treated horribly.

56:30

I'd never have I ever brought a gun to school

56:33

Yeah.

56:33

Thank

56:34

god we got you out of school. Yeah.

56:36

The fandom, I don't know if I could

56:38

laugh at that. The fandom

56:40

has been the subject of numerous case studies.

56:42

Yeah. It's also I mean, there are

56:46

people who take inspiration from

56:48

these people. Yeah. And the

56:51

only reason that happens is because

56:53

the

56:53

news networks and the journalists

56:56

go into way too much detail on who these

56:58

people are -- Yeah. -- their backgrounds. they

57:00

were misunderstood. You know, they

57:02

they linked to their Facebook that's still active.

57:04

Yeah. And they see memes and and people find

57:07

an identity and a connection

57:09

in these people. Mhmm. Don't give it that

57:11

power. The first time I saw that

57:14

was on during the

57:16

pandemic -- Yeah. -- during the

57:19

height of the

57:19

Black Lives Matter protests where

57:22

it was

57:23

all happening so rapidly one after

57:25

another. And

57:26

all of the news articles would be focused on

57:28

the person who who shot the gun. The

57:30

person who did this, the person who did that.

57:32

We should be talking about the victim. That was the first

57:34

time in my life that it was reframed like

57:36

that. That was, like, why are we

57:38

giving it so much attention? Yeah.

57:40

You are inspiring others. Yeah. Whether

57:43

you meant to or not, because you think you're it's

57:45

an what's

57:47

it called? Your

57:47

journalistic integrity -- Yeah. -- that you're reporting

57:50

all the facts. We don't wanna know the fucking facts of

57:52

who did it. We wanna know the

57:54

victim and how we can help. Yeah. And so

57:56

I feel like this is a bit it can be solved.

57:59

Stop fucking

57:59

doing Mhmm. When this happens, I

58:03

you know, it's always and and it's the whole idea

58:05

of which pictures you use. Yeah.

58:07

You use the white guys, you know, graduate

58:10

photos. Yeah. There's that. So it's awesome.

58:12

Yeah. It's like or that this is a horrible

58:14

meme where it's, like, a white guy just killed his

58:16

entire family and they used, like, the most recent

58:18

family vacation photo and then, like, all writing dolphins.

58:21

Yep. But then if it's a person of color, they use,

58:23

like, a mugshot or, like, something taken from

58:25

someone's Facebook. Yep. And it's, like, Why would

58:27

you do that? Also, the fact that a lot of these, like,

58:29

serial killers are or, like,

58:31

mass shooters are white men. Yeah.

58:33

That that's because of in entitlements.

58:35

Yeah. You know, like, you feel like the world has

58:37

screwed you over and you're owed something.

58:40

To the point where, like, you feel and you

58:42

feel like you can take someone's life. God.

58:44

I mean, I feel like anyone who's a

58:46

woman or person of color can be

58:48

like, yeah, dude, the world is

58:50

fucking awful, but these men just can't accept

58:53

that they weren't given everything on like a silver

58:55

platter. Yeah. The first inconvenience

58:56

or or alert

58:59

that the world is not how they saw it. At first,

59:01

it's just like, yeah. women reject

59:03

you. Therefore, I get to kill people. Oh,

59:05

god. Oh, my god. We're gonna seers.

59:07

We're gonna ask in Robin.

59:09

Yeah. So there's, like,

59:11

true crime, the judicial system, and its effects

59:13

from twenty eighteen to twenty twenty one. The number of

59:15

documentary series on streaming services grew

59:18

sixty three percent. And True Crime was the

59:20

largest segment of that, according to data from

59:22

Parrot Analytics, a media tracking company. This

59:24

is an opinion piece by Vox, by

59:26

the way. Okay. just wanna

59:28

throw

59:28

that out there. This isn't like

59:29

it's just an opinion piece. Okay. Yeah. So

59:31

it's not fact. So True Crime turns

59:34

the courtroom into a source of entertainment and transforms

59:36

people's and the narratives for others to consume,

59:38

oh my god. Yeah. Dude, the fucking

59:41

Johnny Depp never heard trial. The

59:43

the it was disgusting. live.

59:46

Yeah. Like, and they're like, I'm in line to

59:48

watch this. It's a get a job. Yeah.

59:50

Again, Sears.

59:51

right

59:52

What are you doing? That's this is

59:54

real domestic violence, your shit heads. Yeah.

59:57

Alright. The interest in other people's

59:59

trauma, whether depicted through documentary

1:00:01

footage or by actors has real life ramifications.

1:00:04

Our obsession does have an effect on the court system

1:00:06

in both positive and negative ways. It can encourage

1:00:08

public advocacy advocacy that illuminates

1:00:11

the cases of marginalized defendants

1:00:13

or victims. And know that's like, we see that all the

1:00:15

time with Twitter. Like, if someone's missing -- Mhmm. -- like

1:00:17

my sister is missing, can you retweet this? Mhmm. Like,

1:00:19

that's That makes it yeah. And it

1:00:21

it works. Yeah. Sometimes. It does.

1:00:23

And yet the proliferation of

1:00:25

sensationalized stories also means that juries

1:00:27

have preconceived notions about how crimes

1:00:30

happen, how investigations unravel and

1:00:32

how justice is delivered. Mhmm. I can imagine

1:00:34

that would because you're not supposed to be biased

1:00:36

or have, like, an opinion when you walk in the courtroom.

1:00:38

Mhmm. Dude, finding ten

1:00:40

people who are not social media

1:00:42

literate. Mhmm. That's not even your peers

1:00:44

at a certain point. Yeah. It's all like old people.

1:00:46

Have you heard of this case? don't

1:00:48

want old people judging whether or not I die.

1:00:50

I know. Yeah. I'm fucking faced with the

1:00:52

death penalty. That's insane.

1:00:53

That is crazy. But

1:00:54

it's it's I mean, it's

1:00:57

a

1:00:57

larger philosophical question of, like,

1:00:59

can anyone

1:01:00

truly be objective? Mhmm.

1:01:02

No. because

1:01:03

we're all influenced by our

1:01:05

social environment. Yeah. And how

1:01:07

we grew up and how we see the world. And so

1:01:09

you

1:01:09

can try. And I think that can be best

1:01:11

accomplished through diversity on a panel, but

1:01:14

at the same time, you know, we know how the

1:01:16

American

1:01:16

justice system works and -- Yeah.

1:01:18

-- it's not

1:01:18

always the case. Mhmm.

1:01:19

Over

1:01:20

the past decade, the number of non fiction crime

1:01:22

shows has dramatically increased. because

1:01:25

they're listening to the people. Yeah. Netflix

1:01:27

has leaned into this genre with viral titles

1:01:29

such as Tiger King, making a murderer and

1:01:31

inventing Anna. That was about crime,

1:01:33

Tiger King. Yeah. I thought

1:01:35

it just like tigers. What was

1:01:37

the crime? I never watched it.

1:01:39

0II he some I mean, maybe

1:01:41

there was, like, his his tiger

1:01:44

sanctuary was, like, unsafe. There

1:01:46

was a murder, something I don't know. I know

1:01:48

that there was a lesbian on that show who got, like, hand

1:01:50

bitten off, and she was just like, you know, it happens

1:01:53

every day. And I'm like, I wanna meet

1:01:55

you. I

1:01:56

wanna find out what your issue

1:01:58

is. An eccentric larger

1:01:59

than life unscrupulous character Joe

1:02:02

Exotic's management of the animals leads

1:02:04

him into confrontation with animal welfare

1:02:05

advocates and another zoo owner owner,

1:02:08

Carol Baskin.

1:02:09

I remember all this, and

1:02:11

I just never cared to watch it.

1:02:13

Yeah. I was like, y'all are telling me

1:02:14

about this. Against

1:02:17

my will. Bless. I

1:02:18

did watch making a murderer though.

1:02:20

That's what's that about? I just keep licking

1:02:22

this microphone. Why do I do it? Keep your

1:02:24

tongue in your mouth. It's literally like Oh my

1:02:26

god. I I thought about it and I just did it. Okay.

1:02:28

You keep going. What? Wait. What was it

1:02:30

about? Making a redder was about that guy

1:02:33

who was

1:02:35

allegedly innocent, but then, man,

1:02:37

it's been so long. Why would you ask me that?

1:02:39

Making.

1:02:39

And then inventing Anna Anna

1:02:42

is

1:02:44

inventing, Anna,

1:02:46

about

1:02:48

Oh, the oh, my god. This is right. Making a murderer

1:02:50

came out twenty fifteen. Steve

1:02:53

Avery is freed from a wrongful

1:02:54

conviction. So

1:02:55

he served time for something he didn't do,

1:02:58

and

1:02:58

then ends up actually

1:02:59

committing a crime later.

1:03:00

This is all about that journey of like what

1:03:02

that does to the human brain. Yeah. Crazy.

1:03:06

Anyway,

1:03:07

things like this the serial podcast, which

1:03:09

launched in twenty fourteen, all

1:03:13

inspired a boom. Mhmm. Basically, these

1:03:15

were kind of the first to do it, and then it's just gotten

1:03:17

crazy from there. The interest in news

1:03:19

coverage of criminal trials is strong as well,

1:03:22

especially when they're

1:03:22

public figures.

1:03:23

Uh-huh. One of the most notable modern Crème

1:03:25

cases was O. J. trial in nineteen ninety

1:03:27

five, which was watched by over a hundred and fifty

1:03:30

million people. That is crazy. Not

1:03:32

me. More

1:03:33

recently, audiences followed the twenty twenty one

1:03:35

trial of Kyle Rittenhouse, the seventeen year old

1:03:37

who shot three people during an anti racism

1:03:39

and police brutality protest in Wisconsin.

1:03:42

remember

1:03:42

that all that, very recent. Dude,

1:03:44

he's on fucking TikTok. Him and his girlfriend are

1:03:46

active on there. And I'm like, how are you even allowed

1:03:48

to be alive right now? That is wild. Yeah.

1:03:51

You're just allowed to just assimilate back into the world

1:03:53

Uh-huh. -- and

1:03:54

then the DEP versus Amber Heard trial. Yes.

1:03:56

The news stories are part of the larger trend

1:03:58

of crime related discourse with the audience

1:04:00

of both news and

1:04:02

produced shows talking about the nuances

1:04:04

of the court cases, discussing

1:04:05

a judge's behavior, dissecting

1:04:07

testimony, and evidence, or wondering

1:04:09

is he guilty? This discourse adds

1:04:11

to True Crime's negative effects. Mhmm.

1:04:13

Oh my god. That is so

1:04:16

true and you know what? God

1:04:18

what movie was this? or

1:04:20

was it a documentary where,

1:04:22

you know, when you serve jury duty

1:04:25

-- Yeah. -- and it's

1:04:26

a criminal case, like any

1:04:28

of these,

1:04:29

you're not allowed contact with the outside

1:04:31

world because social media, like we said earlier,

1:04:33

can sway your opinion. Yeah. More

1:04:35

evidence is coming out that

1:04:38

there some of these

1:04:40

court what am I

1:04:41

trying to say?

1:04:42

jurors -- Yeah. -- would

1:04:43

see evidence on Twitter before they would in

1:04:45

the actual courtroom. I should. It's just what

1:04:48

the fuck are we doing? I know.

1:04:50

And, dude, oh, I mean, this is not jerry,

1:04:52

but it's a sentence. Big

1:04:54

brother, like, celebrity

1:04:57

big brother, there was, like, so there

1:04:59

was I don't know. Okay.

1:05:01

But yeah. Like, it's, like, Like,

1:05:03

they did the twenty sixteen election. It's you

1:05:06

have no access to your phones. Mhmm. And

1:05:08

so, like Oh. So they all the people

1:05:10

on big brother, like, they were, like, sitting down

1:05:12

and they're like, so we have to tell you, like, who has

1:05:14

elected the next president, and everyone is just,

1:05:16

like, are

1:05:16

you fucking serious? It's actually

1:05:18

y'all shit. And I didn't even think about

1:05:20

that. Yeah. Oh, like, people on survivor.

1:05:23

Yeah. What? What do you mean to

1:05:25

Fuck. What was that? Oh my gosh. Like, that lady,

1:05:27

like, crossing the ocean, and they found No.

1:05:30

No. No. No. This lady was, like, crossing the ocean

1:05:32

in a boat and her friends were, like, she's gonna

1:05:34

be so pissed when she fans out about Rovi

1:05:36

Wade. because, like, you can't fucking

1:05:38

contact these people. Oh my god.

1:05:40

I know. That stresses me out. Yeah. If

1:05:43

my phone ever,

1:05:45

like, broke. Yeah. Or if something happened,

1:05:47

we're like, my I

1:05:48

I don't know. I just could never have access to the Internet

1:05:50

again. Yeah. You just wouldn't know. Yeah. Yeah.

1:05:52

How did people stay tuned?

1:05:54

I am the newspaper.

1:05:57

Yeah.

1:05:59

There is the case against

1:05:59

True Crime. The storytelling element of this

1:06:02

genre is a vital part of its appeal why people

1:06:04

turn on podcasts about serial killers during

1:06:06

their morning commute to catch up on Netflix documentaries

1:06:08

to wind down at night or tune into

1:06:10

the live courtroom feeds keep up with the cases

1:06:12

taking over social media timelines. But it's

1:06:14

so crazy that you unwind with, like,

1:06:16

Richard Ramirez' killings. Just

1:06:19

like I

1:06:20

I don't have words for it. That's like

1:06:22

how like,

1:06:23

if you if you smoke a cigarette and you don't normally

1:06:25

smoke cigarettes, it's gonna give you like some form of

1:06:28

adrenaline. Right? Like, you're gonna feel like But

1:06:30

if you smoke cigarettes long enough, you actually

1:06:32

get, like, more depressed -- Yeah. -- and, like, lethargic.

1:06:34

So, like, these people are so so

1:06:37

addicted to the adrenaline that it actually

1:06:39

calms them down now. I guess that's

1:06:41

a very apt comparison. I

1:06:43

think it's also

1:06:46

the over sensationalization of

1:06:49

it. This no longer affects us the way

1:06:51

that it should.

1:06:51

Yeah. When you hear about, oh, so and so

1:06:54

shot and killed, seventeen people in movie

1:06:56

theater. We're just like, again. Yeah.

1:06:58

It doesn't have that heart wrenching effect

1:07:00

that it should because it's so

1:07:03

And I don't I feel like

1:07:05

you said this earlier of, like, it's

1:07:08

not that this is happening more. It's just

1:07:10

that we know about it more. Mhmm. This been

1:07:12

happening for decades and decades in this country. And I'm

1:07:14

sure there's been an uptick -- Yeah. -- in, you

1:07:16

know, whatever. But

1:07:17

it's also, like,

1:07:18

we just hear about everything all the time

1:07:21

all at once. Yeah. So it

1:07:23

desensitizes

1:07:23

us.

1:07:25

Mhmm.

1:07:26

So publications such as time and

1:07:29

the Guardian have written about exploited of nature of

1:07:31

True Crime Media and how it affects families of victims

1:07:33

who are often re traumatized after being reminded

1:07:35

of the murder book. I what I can't

1:07:38

what I would fuck me up so much.

1:07:40

It's like if my friend who's a woman

1:07:42

got killed and then someone's talking about

1:07:44

it and I go in the fucking comment section, And

1:07:46

there's, like, comments, like, what is she wearing?

1:07:48

Or, like, that that would fucking,

1:07:51

like, make me, like, ill. You know what I

1:07:53

mean? Yeah. because I wanna go through and be like,

1:07:55

what the fuck is wrong with you? Why does it matter? And then

1:07:57

there's now there's, like, multiple videos on it.

1:07:59

We're like,

1:07:59

you know, these your shithead teenagers

1:08:02

who are, like, trying to be edgy, say something controversial.

1:08:04

Like, this is a real person. Yeah. You know?

1:08:06

Or even, like, if it was your sister or your

1:08:08

best friend and someone was, like, Part

1:08:11

one of the dead bottom murder case -- Yeah.

1:08:13

-- this is tea guys strap in. Yeah.

1:08:15

What is your Wow. Dude,

1:08:17

these are real

1:08:18

people. And then you reach out to them and they're like, I'm just

1:08:20

trying to raise awareness. I'm aware that she's dead.

1:08:23

You know? And then at the end, it's like and

1:08:25

this is done at a what do you guys think? Tell

1:08:27

me in the comments. Yeah.

1:08:28

really -- Yeah. -- everything

1:08:30

awareness for what? Yeah.

1:08:32

God. There's also, like, the

1:08:34

CSI effect publications such

1:08:36

as, yeah, Both

1:08:38

non fiction and fiction crime shows

1:08:40

can influence people's understanding of how legal

1:08:42

proceedings work. This becomes an issue

1:08:44

when those audiences become members of the

1:08:46

jury. Oh,

1:08:47

interesting. Social media has added another

1:08:49

layer of difficulty for those who work in criminal

1:08:51

justice. Lawyers don't know how much

1:08:54

jurors perception of a case has been affected.

1:08:56

by what they've heard outside the courtroom. Uh-huh.

1:08:58

And then that means lawyers must now prepare

1:09:00

for trial based on what has been reported as well

1:09:02

as the speculation has appeared on social media.

1:09:05

so much to keep up with -- Yeah. -- and

1:09:07

all of that

1:09:07

can affect you subconsciously too.

1:09:09

Like, if you heard someone talking about it on Twitter,

1:09:12

that

1:09:12

and they they have a theory that's plausible.

1:09:14

Yeah. You're gonna bring that in with you to the courtroom.

1:09:17

Yeah. It's wild. So on

1:09:19

the flip side of the coin, in

1:09:20

defense of true crime, Emily

1:09:22

Danker Feldman. Dankers

1:09:24

such as -- I love that name. -- solid last name.

1:09:27

I love when that last name has hyphen in it because

1:09:29

it's like you're not done. know,

1:09:32

take up space. That says, you know, you

1:09:34

should. Use a colon. Start a list.

1:09:37

You know? Bullupoyer.

1:09:41

Emily Denker Feldman, the former director

1:09:43

of the innocence clinic at the MU

1:09:45

School of Law. This

1:09:46

is a quote. One of

1:09:47

the things that I talk to my students about is trying

1:09:49

to craft a good narrative and good

1:09:51

story in their cases.

1:09:53

exposing them to good narratives, good storytelling

1:09:55

in terms of various True Crime docu series

1:09:57

or shows or films can help with that.

1:09:59

When

1:09:59

we

1:09:59

talk about how to be good advocates in our cases,

1:10:02

we have the state

1:10:02

story about what happened. It's

1:10:04

often not story that we believe is true.

1:10:06

So how do we tell a different story that

1:10:08

tells the narrative that we believe is true? That

1:10:11

often means telling a story from the client's perspectives,

1:10:13

classic, just like how

1:10:15

a court case works 101

1:10:16

Mhmm. The Equal Justice Initiative reports

1:10:19

that racial discrimination often prevents black

1:10:21

people and

1:10:21

other people of color from serving on juries.

1:10:23

EGI's race in the jury report reveals

1:10:25

a study in which felony trial judges throughout

1:10:28

North Carolina were thirty percent more likely

1:10:30

to remove prospective jurors of

1:10:32

color for cause than their white counterparts.

1:10:34

At almost every step of the jury selection process,

1:10:37

racial discrimination leads to

1:10:38

predominantly white juries. That

1:10:40

means the constitutional right to a jury

1:10:42

of peers is not implemented when court

1:10:44

practices prevent all voices from being

1:10:46

included. Mhmm. True crime shows are a

1:10:48

vehicle to get those voices into the conversation

1:10:51

even if it isn't directly in the courtroom. The

1:10:53

prominence of different True Crime Stories encourages

1:10:56

people to take cases to social media and

1:10:58

advocate for those who otherwise wouldn't have

1:11:00

advocates.

1:11:01

This is what happened for defendant at non

1:11:03

Sayed following the serial podcast. True

1:11:05

Crime Media has become a viable option

1:11:07

for commenting on the shortcomings of the legal system.

1:11:10

Period. It's

1:11:11

crazy that, like, we I mean, we do worry

1:11:13

that the jury is gonna be biased, but it's even

1:11:15

the people selecting the jury that are biased.

1:11:17

Oh, everything is intentional as well. Yeah.

1:11:20

That's

1:11:20

god, this fuck everything about

1:11:22

this. What was I gonna say also?

1:11:26

Wait.

1:11:26

Wait. Wait.

1:11:27

Oh,

1:11:28

yeah. So they, you know, talk

1:11:31

about crafting a good narrative and a good story

1:11:33

in their cases. I also like it's a lot

1:11:35

of like serial killers get like a nickname for that

1:11:37

reason. because, like, instead of I mean,

1:11:39

you could remember Richard Ramirez's name, but

1:11:41

the nightstalker, like, gets your attention. Yeah.

1:11:43

And it gets people to do it once. Stalking

1:11:46

at night. Yeah. But, like,

1:11:48

it's just it's just a way to, like or

1:11:50

BTK, you know, buying torture. Like,

1:11:52

that makes people interested, and so now there's more

1:11:54

eyes on and there's, like, more resources

1:11:56

going to investigating it. Yeah. Yes.

1:11:59

Which

1:11:59

is

1:11:59

good and bad the but yes.

1:12:02

There's also the verdict for consumers

1:12:04

of True Crime shows moderation is important.

1:12:07

Yes. According to Cleveland Clinic,

1:12:09

a nonprofit multi specia Multispecialty,

1:12:13

academic medical center watching too much

1:12:15

crime can result in psychological effects

1:12:17

such as increased fear, anxiety, and weariness.

1:12:19

Yeah. which is not

1:12:22

again an accurate

1:12:24

version of reality. Yeah. There

1:12:26

is an acceptable amount of, you know,

1:12:28

being aware -- Yeah. -- your surroundings.

1:12:31

And at the point that

1:12:33

it limits you from being able to live a

1:12:35

full life, because you're so overcome

1:12:38

with anxiety and fear that you're gonna be murdered

1:12:40

-- Yeah. -- it's just not realistic. You

1:12:42

know, and and even statistics don't

1:12:44

really help -- Yeah.

1:12:45

-- because when there is

1:12:47

violence against women just for existing.

1:12:50

So it's like and not just women. Obviously,

1:12:52

I'm just speaking because I am a woman. Yeah. But it's

1:12:54

like, I

1:12:55

have a fear that

1:12:57

has been instilled in me since I was

1:12:59

probably five, six years old. Yeah. No.

1:13:01

Just don't play outside. Don't do this. Don't do whatever.

1:13:03

Mhmm. And that's why I'm so pale. Yes.

1:13:05

So I was allowed to play outside. They shouldn't have

1:13:08

wrinkles. Thank you so much. Uh-huh. But

1:13:10

I yeah. I mean, I

1:13:12

think, like, it's the same thing with any sort of

1:13:14

addiction where, like, you can drink

1:13:16

in moderation. But if you're starting

1:13:18

to get shakes every morning, and you have

1:13:20

to remedy the anxiety with more

1:13:22

alcohol. Like, that's or if you,

1:13:24

you know, you're

1:13:25

just you're making it worse, and then you also

1:13:27

get like the physical symptoms of anxiety.

1:13:30

Like, it's not anxiety, not just mental. Like,

1:13:32

if you're stressed out for long enough,

1:13:34

Like, that could affect, like, your blood pressure,

1:13:36

like, your health condition. Yeah. And

1:13:38

so, like, I can only imagine what that does to you

1:13:40

physically. But True Crime

1:13:42

isn't inherently good or bad, but audience should recognize

1:13:45

the difference between exploit exploitation

1:13:47

and advocacy. This

1:13:49

is TikTok. That's the thing. You're asking

1:13:51

the general public to understand nuance.

1:13:53

That was take number one.

1:13:55

We have been trying to do this for years.

1:13:58

No matter how well a podcast

1:13:59

documentary Earth series is produced, it

1:14:02

won't reflect the reality of a courtroom. Yeah.

1:14:04

That is true. Like, I mean, we were talking about

1:14:06

one episode where lawyers watch,

1:14:08

like, movies where there's, you

1:14:10

know, a courtroom scene -- Yeah. -- and they pick them apart.

1:14:12

You know, like, this is technically correct, but it's

1:14:14

like, you would this would never happen in real life. Yeah.

1:14:17

But then again, I mean, what

1:14:18

are we talking about? These are it's

1:14:21

entertainment. Yeah. So

1:14:23

great, but it technically follows

1:14:25

the rules of a a

1:14:27

trial. Mhmm. But, like, the actual

1:14:29

occurrences, of course, not because it's traumatized.

1:14:32

Yeah.

1:14:33

Such media can be a needed challenge

1:14:35

to a legal system that excludes marginalized

1:14:38

people following the release of Netflix's when

1:14:40

they see us. many viewers reflected on

1:14:42

the wrongdoings of the criminal justice system.

1:14:44

Mhmm. A former prosecutor and author

1:14:46

was dropped from her publisher amid criticism of

1:14:48

her role in convicting the exonerated five.

1:14:51

In an NPR story TV critic Eric

1:14:54

Degans talks about how effective the show was

1:14:56

and highlighting the over policing of people of color.

1:14:59

Andrew Crime can be an agent of change as

1:15:01

long as audiences aren't accessories to

1:15:03

its harmful effects,

1:15:04

which is

1:15:07

variable that is not predictable --

1:15:09

Yeah. -- because I mean,

1:15:11

with anything. Like, when you're trying to

1:15:13

amass an audience that follows

1:15:15

something and, like,

1:15:16

know, awareness

1:15:17

and action and change, there's

1:15:20

always gonna be those people that just misunderstand

1:15:21

-- Yeah. -- and, like, they think they're

1:15:23

helping and

1:15:23

they're just really undermining the movement.

1:15:26

Oh, dude. It's always so crazy

1:15:28

to see, like, someone who like, someone

1:15:30

who's a fan of you or, like, they get it, and

1:15:32

then you see them speak on something else and you're like,

1:15:34

oh, fuck. You know what I mean?

1:15:37

Like, there was someone that followed me that

1:15:39

called out someone for being transphobic, but

1:15:41

then they called them a pig and,

1:15:43

like, that they were making fun of their weight. And I was, like,

1:15:45

ugh. You almost like,

1:15:48

you none of us. missed it. Yeah. You just oh,

1:15:50

it's another group of people that you're like, you

1:15:52

know, I was, like, you True.

1:15:54

It's probably wrong.

1:15:55

The fact will be wrong. Yeah. So we gotta,

1:15:57

like, dial it back. Yeah. And that's the problem that

1:15:59

with these sort of audiences is that, like, they don't realize

1:16:01

that there's, like, multiple issues it's just so much

1:16:03

anger and they don't know where to direct it. Yes. Definitely.

1:16:06

Yeah. So why are we obsessed with

1:16:08

true crime, Britney? Why are we obsessed with true crime?

1:16:10

This is an opinion piece by lawyer

1:16:12

monthly. I have lawyer weekly. You're

1:16:15

more in the know than I am. True

1:16:17

crime dramas give us an insight into our culture

1:16:19

and norms as well as our anxieties and

1:16:21

values. By watching True Crime dramas,

1:16:23

we unlock our natural desire to solve

1:16:25

puzzles and mysteries. We didn't even talk about that.

1:16:27

Uh-huh. And that puzzles I too. That's why

1:16:29

I do Lego so much. Period. Yeah.

1:16:31

It is that, like, just you want

1:16:33

to know. Mhmm. And that's why also

1:16:36

there is a big following of unsolved

1:16:38

crimes, like BuzzFeed's

1:16:40

unsolved. All that, like, that was a

1:16:42

huge thing a few

1:16:43

years ago. and then people get upset

1:16:45

when it's unsolved. It's like, yeah.

1:16:47

Well

1:16:48

I mean, this does make sense. Like, I mean,

1:16:50

think about, like, if you're ever, like, cheated on.

1:16:52

And, you know, you didn't get the full story.

1:16:54

Mhmm. And, like, you know, a couple months later, you find

1:16:56

out one piece that you're like, holy fuck.

1:16:58

Like, just a series of events now makes

1:17:00

sense. Right. you know, so it's it's like the

1:17:02

major version of that. Definitely. Mhmm.

1:17:05

And people get to speculate as to

1:17:06

why criminals may act the way they do, which

1:17:09

is Sounds to the lambs, cladding. Mhmm.

1:17:11

These programs also allow us to examine

1:17:13

the darker sides of humanity from a safe

1:17:15

distance, and they

1:17:16

bring in another crucial element, our natural

1:17:18

desire

1:17:19

for justice. Period. That's These

1:17:21

are all good. Laura monthly, you're

1:17:23

on the top man. Y'all should do this for

1:17:25

a job.

1:17:25

Y'all should be professionals. People

1:17:27

get emotionally invested and want to see those

1:17:29

who have done wrong get caught and punished.

1:17:32

Seeing this play out on screen can be hugely

1:17:34

satisfying for

1:17:34

viewers.

1:17:35

fear of crime and stereotyping. This

1:17:38

is another one why we're obsessed with true crime.

1:17:40

A

1:17:40

lack of knowledge of crime statistics combined

1:17:42

with an overconsumption of certain types of

1:17:44

media can create the perception that one is

1:17:47

more likely to become a victim of crime than

1:17:49

may be statistically true. In certain

1:17:51

situations, fear of crime will influence people's

1:17:53

behavior, and it has been shown that this fear

1:17:55

can be disproportionate to a person's actual

1:17:58

risk, which is

1:17:59

what we're talking about earlier.

1:17:59

Mhmm. although

1:18:00

it is important to note that the risk of any

1:18:02

one

1:18:02

individual will vary greatly depending on multiple

1:18:05

different factors. There

1:18:06

can also be danger when it comes to stereotyping.

1:18:09

When

1:18:09

crimes perpetrated by or seen to

1:18:11

be associated with a particular group in

1:18:13

society are dramatized or overreported, it

1:18:15

can give the impression that people form people

1:18:18

from that group are disproportionately involved

1:18:20

in crime and they can therefore be wrongly

1:18:23

stereotyped as criminals. Yeah, like

1:18:25

the fucking term black on black crime.

1:18:27

It's not real. It's the people who are committing

1:18:29

these crimes live in an area where it's a large

1:18:31

number of black people. So, like, it's would

1:18:33

make sense that if it's against their neighbor and

1:18:35

their neighbor's black, that would happen.

1:18:37

You know? Yeah. Where it's like black and black crime

1:18:39

doesn't exist. It's just people from a

1:18:41

similar neighborhood. no gay

1:18:43

on gay crime. Yeah. I seek

1:18:45

out homosexual's. No. I

1:18:48

I've never beaten up a gay person. Really?

1:18:51

But that can change. My birthday's in

1:18:53

couple weeks. If anyone's looking

1:18:56

to be around. When was

1:18:58

yeah. So it's the in certain situations, the fear

1:19:00

of crime will influence so I have

1:19:02

a fear. I know that this is not rational

1:19:04

that I will,

1:19:05

like, get like, fall off a roller coaster. Mhmm.

1:19:07

I've, like, seen people got in their heads,

1:19:09

like, hit a bar, like, took their

1:19:11

head off. And I know that roller

1:19:13

coasters for the most part are fairly safe. Yeah.

1:19:15

the same with airplanes, but people are praying to a god

1:19:17

they don't believe in -- Right. -- if there's turbulence. You

1:19:19

know? Yep. Like,

1:19:20

you're like Right. -- so I understand

1:19:22

that it's so unlikely for

1:19:24

me to die on a rollercoaster, but I'm

1:19:26

still like, I don't know about the matterhorn. The

1:19:29

chances are -- Yeah. -- improbable

1:19:31

but

1:19:31

never zero. Mhmm. Yeah. I get

1:19:33

it.

1:19:34

This obsession

1:19:36

with True Crime as well as inspiring a

1:19:38

new generation of law enforcement professionals,

1:19:40

which is good and bad. because

1:19:43

there are so many bad apples,

1:19:45

and it's a bad institution in general.

1:19:47

Mhmm. But it's I understand, you know,

1:19:50

this push

1:19:51

to if

1:19:52

you wanna pursue law, whether that's as

1:19:54

a lawyer, you know, or as

1:19:56

an advocate in some sense

1:19:57

of just advantage disproportionately,

1:19:59

you know, targeted people.

1:20:02

And then if you wanna go to the police officer route

1:20:04

or firefighter route or whatever, I get that,

1:20:06

you wanna make a

1:20:07

change, but you're entering in to such a flawed

1:20:09

-- Mhmm.

1:20:11

-- industry. And that's

1:20:13

a larger discussion. Yeah. But, you know,

1:20:16

it's but it's it's interesting. While

1:20:18

there is the possibility of fictionalized narrative

1:20:20

setting unrealistic expectations and communicating

1:20:23

misconceptions

1:20:23

about roles in the criminal justice

1:20:25

system and the police, There are also

1:20:27

plenty of positive reasons why crime dramas

1:20:29

could inspire the audience to take a wider interest

1:20:32

in this field. And I think that that should

1:20:34

be celebrated more and they

1:20:36

should be paid more. Yeah. Especially teachers.

1:20:39

Yes. because a lot of this goes back to I

1:20:41

was

1:20:42

just talking about I haven't got a whole family full

1:20:44

of teachers. And

1:20:45

so much of the onus of whether you

1:20:47

grow up to be a good or bad kid is

1:20:50

dependent

1:20:50

upon your your teachers. Now your

1:20:52

parents

1:20:52

yes. Your parents fail

1:20:54

you.

1:20:55

then the onus is now on your teacher. Yeah.

1:20:57

And there are that's

1:20:59

what people love of a victory

1:21:00

story. You know, of, like,

1:21:02

my football, my my my

1:21:04

teacher -- Yeah. -- da da da inspired

1:21:06

me to whatever. And it's like they're life changing

1:21:09

people when your parents fail you. So Mhmm.

1:21:11

Crazy. trying

1:21:12

to think about any teachers I really enjoyed

1:21:14

when my parents were failing me.

1:21:16

What was your favorite subject

1:21:18

in school? I liked English a lot,

1:21:21

but that's because I'm gay. And I

1:21:23

didn't know it. Yeah. Yeah. But I was the

1:21:25

creative writing teacher's assistant for

1:21:27

a while. Oh, yeah. I'd like proofreading some papers

1:21:29

the only thing that she was I

1:21:31

had to proofread them, and then also if some of them were

1:21:33

alarming, I had to report them to the guidance counselor.

1:21:35

Sure. Sure. Sure. Yeah. So, like, one would be, like,

1:21:37

you know, I'm blood who's oozing from every

1:21:39

office. And I'd be like, hey, Tim. Gotta

1:21:42

go to the guidance downstairs for a while. I said, if you

1:21:44

don't mind, we seem to sneak you out of the room real

1:21:46

quick. We'll turn the lights off and

1:21:48

go out the

1:21:48

back.

1:21:50

It's also the rise of

1:21:52

cozy crowd. Wait. What's your favorite? What was your favorite,

1:21:54

like, subject in school? Spanish.

1:21:57

Oh, yeah. In high school too? Yeah. Do

1:21:59

this so cool. You can

1:21:59

just finish. Well, language teachers are always

1:22:02

the fucking best. Like, because they're they're

1:22:04

cultured the

1:22:05

right good ones. Okay. I

1:22:07

was fortunate enough to have really good Spanish

1:22:09

teachers who don't just teach you, you

1:22:11

know, here's how to conjugate comair --

1:22:13

Yeah. -- but it's and

1:22:15

here's music and here's

1:22:17

theater and here's literature

1:22:19

from all these cultures and

1:22:21

here's how it varies country to country and here's

1:22:23

how this spread and here's the history. When

1:22:25

you learn all about that and you get to celebrate it,

1:22:28

on my Spanish teacher in high school, we used to have days

1:22:30

where everyone

1:22:31

had to make like a traditional Latin

1:22:33

American dish -- Yeah. -- and you brought it in. There

1:22:35

was, like, flan,

1:22:35

and there was a lot

1:22:38

of And,

1:22:39

like, everyone got to immerse themselves

1:22:41

in the culture and celebrate

1:22:42

it together. It was so fucking fun.

1:22:44

That is cool. It's like that if

1:22:46

that was how all of my classes

1:22:48

were? Uh-huh. I would

1:22:49

have great time. I would

1:22:50

love math. Yes. But not can't

1:22:52

even add

1:22:52

without my iPhone calculator.

1:22:54

I give me that it's crazy like I all

1:22:56

my history teachers were, like, guys, that I

1:22:59

like you teacher. I enjoy all coach. Yeah.

1:23:01

Like, the history teacher never chose to

1:23:03

be a history teacher. It was always someone, like,

1:23:05

you know,

1:23:05

the PE teacher. He's he's got some, like, a free

1:23:07

period. Yeah. He just love reward too. Yeah.

1:23:09

I think have a very I understand. Okay.

1:23:12

I have a very soft spot for, like, teachers who

1:23:14

lose their shit Yeah. Like, you they're just

1:23:16

just about to, like, always combust. And I

1:23:18

know that, like, they probably shouldn't be teaching, but, like,

1:23:20

I just get it. You know? Oh, I definitely get it

1:23:22

too. Yeah. Some of my my teachers were who

1:23:24

were so unhinged. Yeah. And would just open

1:23:27

the class being like, well, he left me.

1:23:31

like, I get I

1:23:34

get what you would open the class with that

1:23:36

everyone needs to know. Like, you were talking about language

1:23:38

teachers. I took French. and, like, my French

1:23:40

teacher, she just when she, like, edited something

1:23:42

where she, like, helped, she's just, like, no, that's bad.

1:23:44

I was like, that doesn't make any sense. And I'm like,

1:23:46

thank you for not like, it's just so fucking funny

1:23:48

that you're not explaining anything. Yeah. Yeah.

1:23:51

Love

1:23:51

it. There's

1:23:52

also the rise of cozy crime. Is

1:23:54

it where you rival Walmart and onesie?

1:23:59

No. That's

1:23:59

not what it is. When you slash someone

1:24:02

in the blue eleven like this? There's

1:24:05

common circle theory w. This is what Stanley

1:24:07

wrote. Common circle theory w. A

1:24:09

new generation discovers cozy crime. Cozy

1:24:11

mystery is also referred to as cozy's or

1:24:13

a subgenre of crime, fiction which sex

1:24:15

and violence occur off stage. The

1:24:18

detective is the detective is an amateur

1:24:20

sleuth in the crime and detection take place in

1:24:22

a small socially intimate community. With

1:24:24

so, what does it mean off stage?

1:24:26

Cozy is like like before

1:24:29

the narrative start. Oh. These are these

1:24:31

are this is fiction. Okay. Cozy is

1:24:34

this

1:24:34

dude. Sexual assault cozy. Cozy's

1:24:37

the stand in contrast to hardboiled fiction

1:24:39

in which more violent and explicitly sexual

1:24:42

Expicit sexuality are central to the plot.

1:24:44

The term cozy was first coined in the late twentieth

1:24:46

century, with various writers produce works

1:24:48

in an attempt to recreate the golden age of

1:24:50

detective fiction. in. Cozie

1:24:52

Crime has boomed in the last year, but there is

1:24:54

still space for the psychological thriller according

1:24:57

to agents and editors who describe a general

1:24:59

appetite for crime and escapism that has

1:25:01

flourished under lockdown. But

1:25:02

escapism. Escaping into a

1:25:05

worse world. Where you've you're

1:25:07

like, you're home, like, and this sucks. god. I wish I

1:25:09

was sexually assaulted at some point. I

1:25:13

wish my neighbor got murdered. Yeah. Like, that's

1:25:15

interesting. I think it's escapism more

1:25:17

in the

1:25:18

the realm of it has nothing to do with

1:25:20

you. Oh, okay. It's completely new characters,

1:25:22

completely new players, completely new story line, has

1:25:24

nothing to do with your real life. Mhmm. Okay.

1:25:27

So Teresa Keating, a senior

1:25:29

editor at Viper, described seeing a

1:25:31

rising cozy submissions dating back to you

1:25:33

before the pandemic, stressing that it has

1:25:35

been thriving. a thriving subgenre in the

1:25:38

digital market in particular for a while.

1:25:40

Like others who spoke to, the book seller, she thinks

1:25:42

the recent uptick is down to a recent

1:25:44

taste for escapism. fueled by the current

1:25:46

events. Yeah.

1:25:48

So you're

1:25:50

you're like, god, I I'm escaping where

1:25:52

someone else's life is horrific. and

1:25:54

that's comforting. Yeah. I

1:25:56

would but, I mean, I don't

1:25:58

I and let I don't really, like,

1:25:59

find any comfort in, like, yeah,

1:26:02

someone, you know, grandma got killed.

1:26:04

At least I'm not them. You know? Like, I mean, it seems

1:26:06

kind of I mean, maybe I'm not getting in as much

1:26:08

as that. Well, I mean, it's like anything. Why do we

1:26:10

watch a movie, a thrilling movie. Why

1:26:12

do we read a thrilling book? Why do we, you know, it's

1:26:15

like -- Yeah. -- it's entertainment as

1:26:16

well. Mhmm. As as much as it

1:26:18

is escapism.

1:26:20

People are flocking to cozy crime

1:26:22

books because of the oversaturation of graphic

1:26:24

violence inside the mainstream true crime,

1:26:26

as well as a way of escapism from our current

1:26:28

times. Time's

1:26:29

are tough and using cozy crime as an escape

1:26:31

compared to

1:26:32

other violent genres of true crime makes sense

1:26:34

as a current rising trend. And

1:26:36

I would like to see Nancy Drew. as

1:26:38

a cozy crime.

1:26:39