0:00

The analogy that I love using is that of a puzzle

0:02

. Right , we would never expect

0:05

a puzzle for all the pieces to

0:07

be the same . It

0:09

wouldn't create a picture . So if

0:11

we can accept that puzzle pieces , we

0:13

want them to all look different . Right

0:16

, but all are needed by the

0:18

puzzle to create the beautiful picture

0:20

that the puzzle creates . And it's the same

0:23

with diversity . Each one of

0:25

us is . The team is richer

0:27

for the diversity that we each bring to

0:30

the table .

0:41

Welcome to the Cultural Agility

0:43

Podcast , where we explore the stories

0:45

of some of the most advanced intercultural

0:48

practitioners from around the world to

0:50

help you become culturally agile and

0:52

succeed in today's culturally complex

0:55

world . I'm your host , Marco

0:57

Blankenberg , International Director of KnowledgeWorks

0:59

, where every day we help individuals

1:02

and companies achieve relational

1:04

success in that same complex

1:07

world . Welcome

1:10

again to another episode of

1:12

Unlocking Cultural Agility , and

1:15

I'm so happy that Linda Berlotte

1:17

is back with us again . Actually

1:20

, the very , very first podcast we

1:22

recorded was us together .

1:24

That's right , that's how we started .

1:27

So thank you for making the time , and

1:29

it's always great to hear all

1:32

the things that you're involved with , but also

1:34

I always have loved sharing our perspectives

1:36

. We have come a long way

1:38

together , but for our listeners

1:40

it would be really good if you can just

1:43

do a brief introduction who is

1:45

Linda Berlotte ? And we'll dive

1:47

straight into the subject . For today , Absolutely

1:49

, marco .

1:50

Thank you for inviting me back onto your podcast

1:52

. We had so much fun last time talking

1:55

about both relationships teams as

1:57

well as intercultural agility

1:59

. Both of these topics are close to our heart , I

2:01

know , so I'm thrilled to be here with you again .

2:04

So tell me a little bit more about Linda

2:06

.

2:08

How long do you have ? So

2:12

I am Italian . I have been living

2:14

here in the Middle East , in Dubai specifically

2:16

, for the last 20 years . I

2:19

came here for two .

2:22

Heard that before Right .

2:24

It's now my home . I

2:26

am passionate about many

2:29

, many things food , music , dancing

2:31

but , more importantly , I

2:33

love what we do . I am absolutely

2:36

passionate about working with teams

2:38

and , more specifically , multicultural

2:40

teams , to help bring more

2:43

connection and more peace to these teams

2:46

, despite the diversity

2:48

that lives between them . Now , we all know diversity

2:50

is a gift and very often in a

2:52

multicultural team , this can create a

2:54

lot of challenges , and I

2:56

love working with these teams

2:59

to help them find a different way forward

3:01

.

3:01

You said you're based in Dubai , but you

3:04

don't just work in Dubai . Tell

3:06

us a little bit more . Where does your work take

3:08

you ?

3:09

That's right . My work takes

3:11

me across the globe , really , from Mexico

3:13

to Thailand and everything in between

3:16

. Wow .

3:17

Wow , it's an

3:19

exciting but sometimes maybe

3:21

also challenging span of countries

3:24

, span of time zones . Now

3:26

you already mentioned intercultural agility

3:29

. We've had the privilege of applying

3:31

that in our own unique ways , sometimes

3:33

working together on projects . But

3:35

how is intercultural

3:38

agility making a difference

3:40

, maybe even for you as a person

3:42

to start with , but also how

3:44

does it make a difference in the work that you do ?

3:47

Marco , for me , cultural issues

3:50

in groups have always lit up

3:52

like string in front of me . I've

3:55

always been able to see that when there is

3:57

misunderstanding or

3:59

people are not hearing each other or sometimes

4:02

miscommunication , that

4:04

partly could be who they are and

4:06

also partly could be cultural

4:08

. So whenever I am traveling I

4:10

see these cultural differences

4:12

between me and whoever I am surrounded

4:15

by . That happened

4:17

to me from a very young age , I guess , because

4:19

we traveled extensively as a

4:21

family and I've lived in so many different countries

4:24

that I was always able to see

4:26

that diversity piece

4:28

and get very curious around that . But

4:32

so almost it's become second

4:34

nature for me personally to become

4:36

interculturally agile . But

4:38

I see how important it is in

4:40

the world that we live in , right , where we're a globalized

4:43

world , most teams now

4:45

are multicultural

4:47

and so it's become vitally

4:49

important for team members to really

4:51

learn to move away from

4:53

me and you to understanding

4:56

and being curious about that which is most different

4:59

, which could be a different culture , a different

5:01

personality or anything else

5:04

really .

5:04

Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . Now , today

5:06

we were hoping to talk a

5:09

little bit more about some contentious issues

5:11

. Potentially , there's a lot

5:13

of thinking about diversity

5:15

, equity , inclusion , belonging . A

5:18

lot of the original thinking initially

5:20

came out of more the Western countries and

5:23

there's been some hiccups around that

5:25

, so we're going to take

5:27

permission from our audience today to

5:30

give maybe a more global perspective

5:32

on that . We both are in the trenches

5:34

pretty much every week in working

5:36

with teams , working with leaders , working

5:38

with organizations on organizational

5:41

culture , etc . So

5:43

let's get into it . When we

5:46

listen to you know , this year

5:48

is a crazy year when it comes to elections . Actually

5:51

, I just learned that this is the

5:53

year where more people on the planet

5:55

vote for a new leader

5:57

than any time in history before

5:59

. So , unfortunately

6:02

, what has happened with the world of diversity

6:04

? In many countries ? Actually

6:06

, it's become part of the political agenda

6:09

and

6:11

, I must say , in some countries it's

6:13

actually unfortunate almost

6:15

because it politicizes

6:17

it . It sometimes even weaponizes

6:19

it . What you do with diversity

6:21

and how you think about it , While people

6:24

like yourself and others , they

6:27

just want to come alongside teams , come alongside

6:29

leaders and navigate diversity

6:31

, tool them up , help them . So how

6:34

do we move forward ? Are

6:37

we facing a situation where

6:39

the core is not the

6:41

core anymore . People start

6:44

to lose track of why

6:46

it was invented in the first place or why it

6:48

was emphasized in the first place . So

6:51

how do we deal with this ? People

6:53

try to politicize it . People try to

6:55

say , no , this is my agenda . And

6:59

then , in the midst of that , your heart

7:01

is really to bring people together to

7:03

help people be effective together so how

7:05

do we stay focused on the core with all

7:08

this noise ? Daniel Kahneman would call

7:10

this lots of noise in the system . We

7:12

try to stay focused . How

7:15

do we do that ?

7:16

For me , and I'm sure that you and

7:19

we all have different opinions around this

7:21

right . That's why it's so contentious , I guess . But

7:24

for me it's important to remember that we are

7:26

all diverse and

7:28

that diversity plays itself out

7:30

in not just personality

7:33

or gender or the big pieces

7:35

, but culture is

7:37

one of those , and no

7:39

one culture should drive the agenda

7:42

for anyone else , because

7:44

there are things that are important

7:46

for me which may not necessarily be important

7:48

for you , or there may be overriding

7:51

important factors that are more

7:53

important for you , right ? So , for

7:55

example , race might be important for me

7:57

, but you are striving to stay

8:00

alive in a war-torn

8:02

country , so that's going to be primary for you

8:04

. It would not be right for me

8:06

to pose my agenda on

8:08

your culture and in your situation

8:11

, because it's just not relevant and also

8:13

, I believe , not quite respectful

8:15

. I think respect is something , not

8:17

just the obvious things of saying good

8:20

morning and good evening and being polite . Respect

8:22

is truly accepting the nuances

8:25

of diversity and

8:28

not pushing those to serve my agenda

8:30

.

8:31

Yeah , I think that's well said

8:33

being able to

8:36

maybe be

8:38

a little bit more open-handed as opposed

8:40

to you know , here's my agenda

8:42

, my prescription . Yeah . And

8:45

what I hear you say really is

8:47

what we talk about being having more

8:49

of a cultural learner mindset . Yeah , as

8:51

opposed to bringing a prescription or bringing

8:54

a method to navigate

8:56

things . Well , one of the things

8:58

that we've seen in

9:01

coming up with solutions to

9:03

navigate diversity , to create healthy

9:06

cultures together . One of the

9:08

dilemmas I've seen is that , you

9:10

know , every method is always designed

9:13

through the lens of the method

9:15

creator , right ? So

9:17

culturally around the world , some

9:19

cultures are very relationship centric

9:21

in the way they look at things and

9:24

other cultures are much more problem-centric

9:27

, and very often problem-centric

9:29

cultures tend to have more direct communication

9:32

and relationship-centric cultures

9:34

have a little bit more indirect communication

9:36

. But I've seen this play

9:38

out in so many methods and

9:41

approaches to navigating

9:43

diversity , equity , inclusion

9:45

, belonging . So talk to me

9:47

about the difference . So you

9:49

have problem-centric ways of looking at

9:51

things to figure out what's

9:53

at the center , agree on it and

9:55

then magically make it go away , or

9:58

a more relationship-centric approach

10:00

, which is a different

10:02

. Some people say I don't have time for that , it

10:04

takes too long or it's too fluffy , not

10:08

tangible enough . So talk to

10:10

me about the difference and how you've seen it play

10:12

out , the choices you've made in your work

10:14

.

10:15

Thank you for raising that , because I see

10:17

it being played out obviously in the multicultural

10:20

teams we work with , but also out in the world

10:22

and also in

10:24

the teams I belong to , right

10:26

, where we've got problem-centered cultures

10:29

which are very for them . It's

10:31

very important to put the problem in the center

10:33

, to talk about it , to very clearly define

10:36

what the problem is and , like

10:38

you said , they have a very direct communication

10:40

approach and the person with more

10:42

verbal , more words

10:44

, more sophisticated language usually

10:47

pulls rank on identifying what

10:49

the problem is . On the other side

10:51

, we have a relationship-centered approach

10:53

where it's more important for us

10:55

to rebuild our relationship after

10:58

there's been a problem and to

11:00

focus on rebuilding trust and

11:02

respect and helping each other feel

11:04

honored . In a way

11:06

, relationship-centered cultures

11:09

may never

11:11

go back to talk about the problem because

11:14

they're building their relationships , so they've built their

11:16

relationship past the issue that

11:19

there may no longer be a need to go

11:21

back and talk about the problem . Or , if

11:23

they've built a lot of trust and safety

11:26

, they might at a later stage , you

11:28

know , re-look at it and talk about

11:30

it in a very different way . So

11:33

you can see how those two different approaches would

11:35

clash right .

11:37

Absolutely yes , that's what I'm trying

11:39

to reflect on . Okay , how does that

11:41

if you have people who are saying

11:43

no , no , no , no . We need to get to

11:45

the bottom of this . You know what's the issue . Let's

11:48

talk about what's the issue . And then

11:50

another person gets hesitant

11:52

or scared or nervous and say , well

11:55

, wait a minute . I

11:57

thought it was about you

11:59

and me . So

12:15

yeah , just this last week

12:17

I was talking to somebody I'm coaching right now

12:19

and she's very much from a relationship-oriented

12:22

culture , very community , accountability-oriented , quite a bit of honor , shame , and she's

12:24

in an organization that is very right and wrong , innocence

12:26

, guilt , very policy driven , and something happened that triggered the

12:28

policy and one of the things she said in the conversation

12:30

. She said I

12:37

thought we created a space where my story could be heard and she said the

12:39

policy didn't allow me for my story

12:41

to be heard . And now

12:43

that I'm listening to you , I thought that's

12:46

a classic example of problem-centric

12:48

the policy kicks in , certain rules

12:50

apply and she was saying no , I want

12:52

my story to be heard , I want to have a chance to have

12:54

a conversation with people , because relationships

12:56

are important for me .

12:58

Absolutely , and what you find is the

13:00

more problem-centric for them . It's very important

13:02

that we do things right , that

13:05

we follow the right path and we do things right

13:07

For relationship-centric cultures

13:10

. It's important that we honor each

13:12

other , respect each other , that we don't embarrass

13:14

each other or anything like that . I

13:17

see that played out in teams all

13:20

the time , right when people

13:22

well , let's say , a policy

13:24

kicks in and you can't get

13:27

it feels stuck . If

13:29

you pick up the phone or get up and walk to the office

13:31

and , you know , have a chat

13:33

and a conversation with the person , all of a sudden , magically

13:36

, you get everything resolved because

13:38

we've stepped into relationship , we've made each

13:40

other feel seen and understood

13:43

and and , and then their

13:45

issue doesn't exist anymore and , despite there

13:47

being a policy , all of a sudden we

13:49

can create the solution together

13:52

yeah , yeah

13:55

, so that that idea of being

13:57

willing and allowed to have a conversation

13:59

.

14:01

It brings a new perspective . I

14:04

think I mentioned this before on the podcast , but

14:07

in Dutch we have a saying unknown

14:10

makes unloved . So

14:12

if I'm not allowed to talk to you and there is

14:14

a challenge between us , I

14:16

start to create my own perspective of you

14:19

and it gets reinforced by people

14:21

who support me and , on

14:23

the other side of the equation , gets reinforced by the

14:25

people who support the other party , and

14:27

then it just widens the gap ?

14:29

Absolutely , we make so much . It's

14:32

fascinating how we do that as humans

14:34

, and there are reasons , obviously , why we learn to do that

14:36

. But we would make an assumption

14:38

and have a perception about what's happening

14:40

and

14:51

then , of course , if I'm looking at it through that lens , everything that I see or do confirms

14:53

my original belief , but I don't go out and check if that belief is indeed true or if it's just

14:55

the story I'm making up . And then what ends up happening is I

14:57

treat you as if my belief is correct

15:00

.

15:01

You just briefly mentioned , you

15:03

know , know , seeing two people having

15:06

a chance to chat , having a chance

15:08

to hear each other's story , and then you said

15:10

, magically , the problem goes away . But

15:12

what actually happens if you take a more

15:14

relationship centric approach because I know

15:16

in your work that's what you do um

15:18

, how does how does that shift ? Even

15:21

if on a multicultural team you

15:23

have lots of diversity in the room , some people

15:25

say no , no , no , we first need to talk about the problem . If

15:28

they allow you to take them into

15:31

the relational route

15:33

or the relational space , how

15:35

is that different ?

15:36

Yeah , To be honest , all of the work

15:38

that we do focuses on the relationship

15:41

or , in a corporate setting , the team dynamics

15:43

between people . So we're constantly

15:45

coaching the team members to

15:47

shift the focus away from

15:49

me and you to

15:51

the we and looking

15:54

at where are the places that we can align . So

15:56

, if a policy is creating stuckness , what

15:59

can we both align around ? What do

16:01

we both want to achieve ? And

16:03

so we're not making anybody wrong

16:05

. It's not me above you or you above

16:07

me , or my way versus your way

16:09

. We're really looking for a way that

16:12

is good for the relationship

16:14

, that is inclusive of both of our cultures

16:16

or both of our beliefs , and

16:18

I feel that because of this

16:21

approach , we create very close

16:23

, connected relationships , and

16:25

when team members

16:27

feel more closely connected , when

16:29

there is more positivity , it makes them more resilient

16:32

in times of conflict or in times

16:34

of change . So all of our approaches

16:37

are relationship-centric .

16:39

And you haven't mentioned it , but

16:41

you are very passionate about one

16:44

team coaching methodology I am

16:46

let's say a little bit more about

16:48

that it's the osc , team coaching

16:50

or coach coaching methodology .

16:52

It's a systemic coaching methodology . Osc

16:55

stands for organization and relationship

16:57

systems coaching and

16:59

yes , I'm passionate about it because

17:02

not only is it the model

17:04

that we use in our coaching , but I'm also

17:06

the local partner here in the gcc

17:09

. So we we run a school to

17:11

teach people to be systemic

17:13

coaches such as ourselves , right right

17:15

gcc the gulf countries

17:18

the gulf countries correct ?

17:19

yeah , so you

17:21

mentioned intercultural agility

17:24

is close to your heart . It's been

17:26

part of your life journey . You

17:28

now mentioned ORSC , relational

17:31

organizational coaching methodology

17:33

. How do the two blend together ?

17:36

My belief is that relationship supersedes

17:39

everything . Right , and if we focus

17:41

on the relationship , we can

17:43

talk about the differences between us , because

17:45

the focus is the relationship

17:48

. We can talk about the diversity

17:50

pieces without making

17:52

either one of us wrong

17:54

, without making creating

17:56

embarrassment or shame for anybody . We

17:58

can look at the team

18:01

as a whole or the system as a whole

18:03

and look at all the various pieces

18:05

that are different , and we wouldn't want it to be

18:07

any other way . The analogy that

18:09

I love using is that of a puzzle . Right

18:12

, we would never expect a puzzle

18:14

for all the pieces to be the same

18:17

. It wouldn't create a picture .

18:19

Yeah , and it would be a nightmare to put together .

18:21

Imagine that all red , all blue

18:23

. So if

18:25

we can accept that puzzle pieces , we

18:28

want them to all look different , right

18:30

? If

18:32

we use that as a metaphor and we imagine

18:35

that each one of us is a piece of the puzzle , each

18:38

one of us has an individual identity . So

18:40

the puzzle pieces mine , I

18:42

am responsible for it , I come in

18:45

a particular way , but all are needed

18:47

by the puzzle to create the beautiful picture

18:50

that the puzzle creates . And it's the same

18:52

with diversity . Each

18:54

one of us is the team is

18:56

richer for the diversity that we each

18:58

bring to the table , richer

19:01

for the diversity that we each bring

19:03

to the table . And

19:06

it's up to us to learn skills and tools to talk about the diversity , in an effort to

19:08

educate each other about what's important for

19:10

me and what's important for you , so

19:12

that then we can design , you

19:14

know , we-centered cultures

19:16

or we-centered team dynamics

19:18

.

19:19

I remember you once talked about

19:21

the fact that in team coaching

19:24

you often have two facilitators . So

19:27

how does even already

19:30

having two facilitators , which could be diverse

19:32

in and of itself , how

19:34

does that impact the way you facilitate

19:36

team journeys , team sessions

19:38

?

19:39

I love that you point towards that , and I remember when

19:41

I first started to do this work and we deliver

19:44

this work in so many different countries

19:46

around the world my first

19:48

lens was , oh , I'm going to

19:50

another country , I'm going to be coaching a

19:52

group from a different culture , and that

19:54

was where my focus was , until there started to

19:56

be challenges and conflict , maybe

19:59

between me and my colleagues . And

20:05

then I looked to where my colleague was sitting and I thought , oh , there's

20:07

cultural differences here between us too

20:09

. So it's always present , marco

20:12

, it's always present

20:14

, right . And so what

20:16

we learned is that we call the

20:19

third cultural space , which is not

20:21

my space or your space , but

20:23

it's the space we designed together . We call that

20:25

the third entity . It's like

20:28

the we that

20:30

delivers the course , and we found

20:32

that if we accept that

20:35

it's the we that's delivering the course

20:37

, then how do you and I want

20:39

to show up in service of

20:41

that we , so

20:44

that the we may deliver the most powerful course possible

20:46

and role model , the way for

20:49

the participants that we are educating

20:51

?

20:51

Yeah , and I always find that

20:54

people are really carefully

20:57

observing you as a facilitator

20:59

, especially if there's two of you in

21:01

front of the room . So

21:03

if you don't quote , unquote , practice what you

21:06

preach , then Absolutely yeah

21:08

, and people are smart . Oh yes .

21:10

People are smart and they see everything

21:12

and so if there is a little bit of a challenge

21:16

, they will feel it and sense it

21:18

. I think the magic of

21:20

the co-delivery

21:23

is really carefully designing

21:25

and redesigning and continuously

21:27

raising issues of diversity that

21:29

emerge so that we may realign

21:31

. So there's that word again alignment

21:34

. It's not agreement . It's very different

21:36

to agreement . It's truly

21:38

finding the place where

21:40

we can align and move forward from yeah

21:43

, yeah .

21:45

Now , we both have done a lot of reading

21:47

on different methods and different ways

21:49

of doing things . Um , and

21:51

we were part of networks

21:54

, so you're part of the knowledge works global

21:56

network with people in 55 countries . You're

21:58

part of the orsk network , which is growing

22:00

. It's spanning the globe . Now

22:02

, one thing that

22:04

that I I'm always amazed by is

22:06

that some people think that you

22:08

can design a solution in one country and

22:11

then , uh , you know , franchise it

22:13

out or ship it out . You know it's

22:16

global announcements and from now on

22:18

, we're going to do things this way . And

22:20

I came across a really cute article

22:22

profound article , but the title

22:25

is very cute . He calls it the elephant

22:27

on the plane , and he had

22:29

a really nice Photoshop picture where

22:31

he was trying to stuff an elephant on the plane

22:33

to fly to another country

22:35

, and the symbolism behind it was you know , we

22:38

have all these methods that we design in one

22:40

place . It was you know , we have all these methods

22:42

that we design in one place , and

22:47

either because we are an authoritative voice or because

22:50

we have the power in the organization , because we're either a center

22:52

of excellence or we're part of the global HR

22:54

team or the global diversity team at

22:56

the headquarters of the firm or the organization

22:58

. And then we see these

23:01

methods drift into faraway

23:03

places and then people scratch

23:06

their heads and say , what do we do

23:08

with this ? Um , how

23:11

do we , how do we approach that ? How

23:13

do you and I both have seen those methods

23:16

drift into different places

23:18

, sort of the elephant on the plane , uh

23:20

, drama , what have you

23:22

seen ? And how do we start

23:24

to become more interculturally

23:26

intelligent about all of this ? Because we

23:28

need to see solutions . But stuffing

23:31

the elephant on the plane and then taking

23:34

it to faraway places is not necessarily the

23:36

way to go .

23:38

I can't tell you how many HR teams

23:41

I have worked with across organizations

23:43

that complain about this . Right

23:46

, they say you know , but head office is

23:48

sending us this policy , this is how

23:50

we have to execute it , and then it doesn't

23:52

work . Right , the elephant can't just be

23:54

stuffed on the plane and

23:58

I think , well

24:00

, it's that . Go global , think local

24:02

. And what that means for me

24:05

is that align

24:07

around the intention of the policy what do you want

24:10

to achieve ? But then trust

24:13

the systems in the diverse lands

24:15

to come up with solutions that they can

24:18

own . So trust that the system

24:20

is innately intelligent

24:22

, creative and they will come

24:24

up with solutions

24:26

around diversity that work for them

24:29

and will give you the result that you're looking

24:31

for . If you want to cookie cut

24:33

a stamp , it won't

24:36

work because it won't be relevant

24:38

, it may not honor the local deities

24:40

, it may not be culturally appropriate

24:42

. You know you , you miss

24:44

, you would be missing a lot of perspective

24:47

that the local teams have

24:49

right . So , um

24:52

, does that mean we can't control

24:54

everything ? Yes , does it mean

24:56

we have to trust the local teams

24:58

a lot more ? Yes , yes

25:00

, is that scary ? Yes

25:03

, I'm sure it is . Yeah . But it is the only

25:05

way forward , in my belief .

25:07

So you're raising a number of issues . You

25:10

know one of them has to do with you

25:12

know you mentioned think global act local

25:14

, which is hard to do because

25:16

if , especially if you look at it from a large

25:19

global organization's perspective you

25:22

don't know , you can't control , it's

25:24

very hard to police what happens locally . It's

25:29

almost more comforting

25:31

to design a method and

25:33

say , okay , we've got it , absolutely

25:36

A nice global communication

25:38

strategy around it and we push it out

25:40

the door . Global communication strategy around

25:42

it and we push it out the door . That's almost easier to do than

25:44

to start doing what you just suggested

25:47

. It's scary

25:50

. Do we have the talent locally ? Can

25:54

they actually come up with these localized solutions ? How

25:56

do you actually operationalize something like that

25:58

? How

26:01

?

26:01

does it work ? I think the question I always

26:03

ask is how much money are you willing to throw away

26:05

?

26:06

Willing to throw away .

26:07

Throw away , because if

26:09

you push what you believe is

26:12

right and it doesn't work , how

26:14

much will that cost you Versus

26:16

perhaps , implementing

26:19

a process which might be slower ? Perhaps

26:21

implementing a process which might be slower because

26:24

we may need to educate teams , empower

26:26

teams , train up teams to think and

26:29

be brave enough to speak up

26:31

and provide solutions . So it might take

26:33

a little longer , but in the end

26:35

, teams themselves will come up with

26:37

solutions that will work in their

26:39

context . So

26:45

how do we operationalize that ? The

26:51

best way for me is to ask the local teams what's needed , what's appropriate

26:53

. I would say spend more time upfront asking more questions

26:55

.

26:55

Yeah , you mentioned earlier on . You know there

26:58

might be a policy or there might be a desired

27:00

objective that an organization

27:02

sets . It could be to do with gender , it

27:05

could be to do with other versions

27:07

of diversity , it could be the way they

27:09

recruit local talent

27:12

, et cetera , et cetera . But

27:14

you mentioned , you know there is the policy or

27:17

the desired outcome

27:19

, but there is the intent behind

27:21

it . So it seems you're saying

27:23

focus more on the intent . Is the intent behind it ? So

27:25

it seems you're saying focus more on the intent than the how-to and if the

27:28

intent is clear , then figure

27:30

out the how-to . Local Is

27:32

that ?

27:32

the direction you wanna go . I think so . So

27:34

be clear on the what and the why , and

27:37

then let them figure out the how Right , because

27:40

you'll get your result . It might look different in

27:42

different countries , but the outcome will

27:44

be what you want .

27:47

It almost sounds like if

27:49

that's the way to go , then from

27:51

a global if you have a global organization

27:53

point of view they need to be more coach

27:56

oriented in the way they navigate

27:58

how things are globally done

28:01

in different locations . Maybe

28:03

more coaching skills for people who

28:05

are at these global roles .

28:07

I think so so well , the coaching

28:09

and the education starts at the global perspective

28:12

right , allowing them

28:14

to understand that in a

28:17

world with different cultures , the same

28:19

solution might not work a

28:23

world with different cultures , the same solution might not work . And helping

28:25

them , you know , move away from what they believe to be right to being more curious

28:28

, asking more questions , the ability to ask more questions

28:30

, and accept that different isn't

28:32

wrong , it's just different . And if

28:34

I hold that to be true , how

28:36

do I challenge my own beliefs and

28:38

then get curious about what's being said

28:41

? Challenge my own beliefs and then get curious ? about what's being said

28:43

. That will allow me to trust more

28:45

, but there might be more skills

28:48

and education that's needed on the ground .

28:50

Absolutely . We're talking about

28:52

skills and education . Some

28:57

of the people in our network have said well , sometimes people

28:59

want to do too much too fast . Either

29:03

it's to do with the law the

29:05

law dictates that we need to have

29:08

a percentage of certain

29:10

types of diversity , so we need to hit

29:12

that percentage as quickly as possible or

29:15

there's been a legal

29:17

fallout . Legal

29:27

fallout Typically it's related to racism , nasty stereotypes , popping up unconscious

29:30

bias , taking organizations into the wrong direction . So there's that

29:32

trigger and then they say , okay

29:34

, now we need to do something about it and we

29:36

need to follow the directives

29:39

from above . And then people

29:41

push that out the door and then it

29:43

quite frequently has

29:45

a negative impact . One

29:48

of our facilitators he

29:50

says he's often seen and this was

29:52

within the North

29:55

American context and he says often programs

29:58

like that . The way they

30:00

impact the participants is fight

30:02

or freeze . And

30:05

he says we've been brainstorming

30:07

about finding solutions . How

30:09

do you get to a

30:11

point where these programs become fun

30:14

? The coaching journeys become fun . They

30:17

are relevant in the local context

30:19

. People walk away from

30:22

them not with their hairs up

30:24

and emotions all over the place , and

30:26

so I'm done with this and

30:28

I'm frustrated about it . How

30:30

do you get back to really the

30:33

joy of exploring diversity

30:35

, the joy of building culture together

30:37

. How do you do it ?

30:38

I think it's really important to provide people

30:41

with a positive experience , to move

30:43

away from finger pointing and finding

30:45

various groups wrong , because

30:48

we're all right and we're also all

30:50

wrong . In OSC we have , you know , everybody

30:52

is right partially , and

30:55

the opposite of that is also true right . And so if we can create an environment which

30:57

is fun , and so if we can create

30:59

an environment which is fun , it's

31:02

powerful . People feel like

31:04

their voice is valued when they

31:06

speak . They feel heard , they

31:08

feel understood and at the same time

31:11

, they're learning to challenge their own

31:13

mindsets , challenge their own perspectives

31:15

. They get taught

31:18

questioning techniques or they get taught

31:20

tools to really listen to each other , give

31:22

each other feedback in a way that is respectful

31:25

and not hurtful . All

31:28

of a sudden , people

31:34

start enjoying what they are doing . I was working with a very large

31:36

local company fairly recently and all of the cultural stereotypical

31:39

behaviors were present

31:41

. All

31:44

of the cultural stereotypical behaviors were present . I had lots of choices

31:47

. I could have got upset , I could have put my foot down , I could have got to a more

31:49

school teacher-ish approach , but I didn't

31:51

. I chose to step into

31:53

relationship and I designed

31:56

the workshop . Not the tools and skills

31:58

, because those

32:00

had been agreed to up front , but

32:02

I designed with

32:04

the participants . How did we

32:06

want to create this day that we

32:08

had together ? What would work in terms of

32:10

timings , checking your phones

32:12

, walking in and out ? How do we want to be

32:14

around all of that ? And they

32:17

truly came to the party . They

32:20

were present . The disruptors became my biggest

32:23

allies , you know . Afterwards

32:25

, in a way it pleased me but also

32:27

broke my heart a little bit , because

32:29

they came to me and said this was the

32:31

best course we've ever attended . We

32:34

walked in here thinking

32:36

I've attended so many of these

32:38

leadership development courses , what on earth

32:40

can this lady teach me ? But

32:43

they felt that we had

32:45

put some very applicable

32:48

tools in their hands . We'd given them

32:50

skills which were relationship skills so that

32:52

they could take not just in their

32:54

teams as leaders , but also in

32:56

their families , in their social

32:58

groups , in all of their

33:00

environments . So they learned

33:03

in a fun , engaging environment

33:06

. No one was made to feel wronged

33:08

in any way and we put usable

33:11

tools in their hands . So it wasn't theoretic

33:13

based there was very little

33:16

theory , if you will . So they walked

33:18

out knowing what to

33:20

do next , if you will , very applicable

33:22

, and they loved that .

33:25

I'm picking up on something you say , because I think

33:27

it's important that what

33:29

you give people is not just applicable

33:31

at work , and that's

33:34

in our intercultural agility work that's

33:36

always been super important for

33:38

us . You know , you can use those tools

33:41

when you go shopping , when you're out

33:43

and about , when you're with

33:45

your loved ones , with family , and

33:48

with your colleagues and with your clients . I

33:51

think that's also one of the connect

33:53

points from the early days that we both

33:55

have that desire to

33:57

really give people relational

33:59

skills , no matter who they're connecting

34:01

with .

34:02

Yeah , Absolutely , and I'm

34:05

very aware that when I work with

34:07

a group of leaders probably

34:09

a few months ago I finished a workshop

34:11

with young leaders at

34:14

this age I'm usually the oldest person in the

34:16

room . But why that's

34:18

absolutely delightful for me is that when I

34:20

asked the question , how many of you have children ? They

34:23

all put their hands up . So we're

34:25

putting these skills into mothers and fathers

34:28

hands leaders , of course and

34:30

they're going home and teaching these skills

34:32

to their children . So it's got

34:35

a it's world work in the end

34:37

has a knock-on effect . I can't

34:39

imagine how different my life would have

34:41

been if somebody had put these

34:43

tools and skills in my hands

34:45

when I was five or six or ten . My

34:48

whole life would be different , yeah .

34:50

So their first team is their home team

34:52

. Yes , absolutely yeah , that's

34:54

great . Now

34:57

we already have you know . You

34:59

started to give examples just now about

35:01

you know , the actual creation

35:04

of culture . You say relationship is important

35:06

, but ultimately it needs to go somewhere right

35:08

, so it needs to become so

35:11

. This idea of creating

35:13

culture we've

35:15

started saying recently . You know , every

35:18

time two human beings meet

35:20

, they are creating culture . The

35:24

question is , how good are you at doing it ? Or is it just

35:26

happening to you and you're

35:28

not in control of it ? You say , oops , what just happened

35:30

? Yeah , you know . So I love that

35:32

. How , how does all

35:35

the work you do , how does that sort of culminate

35:37

into that and why is it so important

35:39

?

35:40

Because relationship matters . In

35:42

a world that has more and more challenge and conflict

35:44

, relationship and , dare I say

35:46

, love matters . And

35:49

, yeah , something is generated . Two

35:51

people make eye contact and it's

35:53

either a project or a baby , but

35:55

something is created . And

35:57

so we focus people on

36:00

being conscious and intentional about the

36:02

relationships they want to create . And

36:04

that's why cultural agility is so important

36:06

, Because we're not

36:09

just coming together I mean

36:11

teams come together to produce

36:13

something , a project , and

36:15

as a couple , we come together too

36:17

. But how do we come together ? How

36:19

do we produce that project ? And

36:22

we know that the more positivity

36:25

there is in a team meaning not rah

36:28

, rah , rah , happiness but the more

36:30

positive we feel about working together

36:32

, the more safe

36:34

I feel when working with you , the more trust

36:36

that's born between us , the more

36:38

I can feel safe to fail

36:40

and then pick

36:43

myself up and continue

36:45

to work . So the more positive

36:47

a team feels , the more productive they

36:49

will be , and people

36:52

of diverse cultures feel

36:54

safe when they feel heard

36:56

, seen and understood . That's

36:59

why we want team members to be

37:01

conscious and intentional about

37:03

the dynamics they are creating together

37:05

.

37:06

Now , you've already mentioned a number

37:08

of ingredients that you sort of use

37:10

. So , if you think about your work as

37:14

putting a beautiful meal together

37:16

, you've mentioned a number of ingredients

37:18

, but also , just for our audience maybe

37:20

, what are your key

37:22

ingredients ? If you think about working

37:25

with a team , what makes

37:27

a beautiful meal ?

37:28

That's such a big question . To

37:32

start off , I like to sprinkle

37:34

in a good amount of

37:36

powerful questions and

37:38

I teach the team , or coach the

37:40

team , to be curious about each other , so

37:43

to challenge their perspectives . We

37:45

all make judgments and challenging

37:48

my perspective means not assuming that

37:51

my judgment is right , but

37:53

going out and checking and being curious

37:55

and accepting that that could be your truth . Very

37:58

often I believe my way is right

38:00

and therefore you are wrong and

38:02

that's what causes the conflict . Right , but

38:04

if I can accept , well , my way is right

38:07

and somehow you're also right . So

38:09

being curious around that and then helping

38:12

the team to design how they want to

38:14

be around that , how do we move forward

38:16

, accepting

38:18

that both of those need to exist

38:21

somehow in the way forward ?

38:24

Maybe just to comment on that , because I think that's

38:26

important in our world , that

38:28

it is actually very possible to be

38:30

in relationship and have a very

38:32

different perspective on things , and

38:34

I find that the media at the moment

38:37

, some politicians , some cultures

38:39

, seem to say no , no , no

38:41

, that's not possible . If people think different from

38:44

you , you disconnect , you

38:46

find people who think like you which

38:48

you seem to say no , that's

38:51

actually . I want to pursue the opposite .

38:53

I think there

38:56

is so much at the moment that's creating

38:58

division out in the world the

39:00

media , social media , the news everything's

39:03

creating division and accentuating

39:05

the division . It's easier

39:07

to be with like-minded individuals

39:09

because there are commonly understood

39:12

norms which we can quickly align

39:14

around . But it doesn't

39:16

mean that if we're different , we can't get along

39:18

and create strong , powerful , connected

39:20

relationships . I we can't get along and create strong , powerful , connected relationships . I think we

39:22

can , but we have to be curious

39:25

and accept that there is diversity

39:27

, to talk about that diversity , not

39:29

just ignore it . So , for example

39:32

, staying away from comments like I don't

39:34

see the diversity , we're all the same , but

39:37

when you say that you're actually marginalizing

39:39

a diversity piece , so name

39:41

it and get curious about it and

39:43

then build a relationship

39:45

that is inclusive of all of those

39:48

diversity pieces .

39:50

So what are some other ingredients in

39:52

your beautiful tasty meal ?

39:56

I like to encourage people to turn towards

39:58

each other , not away from each other , and that's

40:00

challenging sometimes . So staying

40:03

away from communication pieces that

40:05

are disrespectful Disrespectful

40:08

in all cultures but learning what

40:10

respectful communication sounds

40:13

and looks like in different cultures . And

40:15

so , for me , communication is key so

40:18

that we can fight right . So , for me , communication is key so that

40:20

we can fight right . Have fights that , you know , don't

40:23

upset or offend , but allow

40:26

us to stay connected . I was

40:28

40 when I learned that you can

40:30

be angry with someone and

40:32

fight and still be respectful . I didn't

40:34

know that before . I thought

40:36

fighting was all out war

40:38

and it was important to win

40:41

, and , of course , you don't

40:43

win at all right .

40:46

You just create division and in the end… it deteriorates very

40:48

fast when it becomes personal .

40:49

Right , yeah , right . So teaching each other to

40:52

truly… Teaching team members to

40:54

truly hear each other .

40:55

This is also very , very key and

40:58

respecting what I'm hearing , even though

41:00

I might hold a very different opinion , how do

41:02

you work with leaders , because I know

41:04

leaders play a key role , but how do

41:06

you allow them to be part

41:09

of what you're trying to accomplish ?

41:11

Very important question . So often we get called

41:13

to the table and the leader says

41:15

coach , my team , they

41:18

are the issue . So

41:20

the first is an educational piece that you are

41:22

part of the dynamic . Each

41:24

one of you plays a very different

41:27

role , but an integral role . It's

41:29

that puzzle piece . So the leader must

41:31

be in and

41:33

I start to work with the leader , upfront

41:36

role modeling how I would

41:38

like for us to then be with the team

41:40

as a whole , so designing

41:42

with the leader how do they

41:44

want to be with me and me with them

41:47

? How do we want to partner together ? How

41:52

do we want to work through our differences

41:54

or our challenges ? Probably

41:58

my most challenging conversation was with a team leader . This one happened to be a man . He

42:01

had a very strong work ethic , was

42:03

very dominant and

42:06

felt very uncomfortable

42:08

, being vulnerable , okay . And

42:10

so there was a design piece around

42:12

that and he kept speaking over me and

42:14

interrupting me . So I kind of had

42:16

to meet him eye to eye and say I'm driving

42:18

this bus and

42:21

although he acknowledged that that was a tough

42:23

conversation to have , he was

42:25

thankfully able

42:27

to surrender to

42:29

my leadership in that moment and

42:31

that was a great learning point

42:33

for that leader , because that dynamic ? Well , there are parallel processes happening

42:35

all the time . Right , that dynamic ? Well , there are parallel processes

42:38

happening all the time . So that dynamic

42:40

was playing itself out with the team . Except

42:43

they had a lot more to lose by

42:45

standing up to him . So

42:47

what happened between us now

42:49

could be role modeled and I could

42:53

empower him to lead that piece

42:55

in the team because he needed

42:57

that and it gave the team members hope

42:59

.

43:01

They saw it happen in front of them Right and it gave the team leader

43:03

a new platform to move forward in

43:06

a different way .

43:07

Yeah , the magic was in that was

43:09

that this leader was extraordinary

43:12

because they were really there to learn

43:14

and the

43:17

vulnerability came through from the very beginning

43:19

and that allowed the team

43:22

to be vulnerable . It allowed

43:24

the team to see that person and

43:26

not just the mask that they'd been wearing

43:29

yeah and it was extremely

43:31

powerful . They walked away . The

43:33

engagement scores in the organization

43:36

shot

43:38

through the roof just because the

43:40

of that work that we did in that multicultural team

43:43

and brought the leaders as

43:45

a leadership team much closer together .

43:48

We alluded here and there in this conversation

43:51

to the challenges

43:54

of the world that we live in . When

43:56

you think about your work and

43:58

working with teams , working with leaders , working

44:00

with organizations what are some of the

44:02

most important challenges

44:04

that you would say , yeah , that's what

44:06

people need to really pay attention to . Conflict

44:11

Okay .

44:15

Fighting right is for me key across cultures . Right

44:17

is , for me , key

44:19

across cultures . Fighting

44:21

right , for me , means being

44:25

passionate and unfiltered

44:27

and respectful and

44:30

allowing all voices to be heard

44:32

and valued . Everybody has a right to

44:34

speak and be heard , and

44:36

not dominating the conversation and believing

44:38

that my way is the right way .

44:41

Unfortunately , we don't live in a world with a lot of good

44:43

examples .

44:44

No , you just have to listen to the news , right

44:47

? Yeah

44:51

, I've become a little bit almost intolerant

44:55

of what I hear in the news and at the same

44:57

time , that drives me even more

44:59

to do the work that we do , marco

45:02

, because I truly believe conflict

45:04

is healthy . We

45:07

don't want vanilla and we don't want cookie cutter of

45:09

each other . It's so precious

45:11

to be diverse and the only way

45:14

that we can work through the challenges between

45:16

us is to have conflict . But

45:18

if you view conflict as a doorway , or

45:21

a dream door , to something different wanting

45:23

to emerge and we believe that

45:25

and we stay in the fight

45:27

, but have a clean fight or

45:30

fight right we can create

45:32

something different in the world .

45:35

So learning to be

45:37

okay with tension

45:39

, conflict , difference of opinion , but also having

45:42

the skills to find

45:44

that door and walk through it together . What

45:48

else do you see in the world ? What's important to

45:50

pay attention to ?

45:52

For me , some of the news in

45:54

the world makes me feel like there are

45:57

impossible situations , right

45:59

, some of the news pieces that are

46:01

emerging feel gridlocked , right

46:03

, and we know

46:05

that if we try

46:08

and resolve conflict at

46:10

the level that it's playing out , we

46:13

can't unlock that

46:15

gridlock .

46:15

It's too complex , too many people , too

46:17

many parties involved , etc .

46:19

That's right . The key to resolving

46:21

gridlock is to going back to how

46:25

do I feel , what's emerging

46:27

in me in terms of emotion , and

46:31

then re-dreaming up that story . Right

46:35

, re-dreaming up the story . If I rethink

46:37

the story of what

46:39

I'm feeling in a different way

46:41

, the way I behave will be

46:43

different . And if we do

46:46

that together , we can start

46:48

to unlock some of these terrible

46:50

, impossible situations that

46:52

are emerging in the world . But to do that

46:54

, we have to accept that if

46:56

I'm feeling frustrated and you're feeling frustrated

46:59

, it might be for two very different reasons

47:01

, it's true , and I bear

47:04

some responsibility of

47:06

how you're feeling , and vice versa .

47:08

Yeah , the thing to that point . I think

47:10

there's a lot of dilemmas

47:12

we face in the world that are really

47:14

going to be with us for

47:16

the foreseeable future . Be with us

47:19

for the foreseeable future and

47:27

the illusion of let's solve this problem or let's overcome this challenge is something

47:29

that I have to . I naturally want to solve the problem and move on , but

47:31

a lot of these dilemmas you can't solve . You

47:34

just have to collaborate and

47:36

connect and find ways to navigate it more effectively

47:38

. And connect and find ways to navigate it more

47:40

effectively . So doing

47:42

what you're saying , doing that at a more

47:45

granular level , as opposed to all

47:47

focusing on the big macro issues

47:49

. One of the issues that's thrown at

47:51

everyone , of course , is

47:53

the whole technology . Some

48:00

people say industrial revolution 4.0 is already passé . 5.0 has already

48:02

started , with AI taking incredible

48:04

flight , sometimes uncontrolled

48:06

. The world of work is changing

48:09

rapidly . What do you see

48:11

with teams and how do people

48:13

prepare for all these changes ? All

48:15

this friction , all this conflict how

48:18

do people prepare for that ? How do you work

48:21

with teams too ?

48:22

It's true , marco , the leaders

48:24

that we work with are complaining

48:26

a lot about the pace

48:28

of change and the type

48:31

of change that's happening . We

48:33

I mean as a Generation X dare

48:35

I say that in

48:38

our lifetime how much

48:40

change we've seen and it feels like it's accelerating

48:45

right . So we've got so much change

48:47

and so much diversity that

48:50

we could never have dreamt of . So equipping

48:53

leaders to navigate

48:55

this is important . Ai is

48:57

emerging quickly , but one thing

48:59

that machines cannot teach us is

49:01

how to be human . So my belief

49:04

is and I guess that's one of the drivers why

49:06

I'm driven to doing this quicker and

49:08

quicker with larger and larger groups my

49:10

belief is that AI

49:14

can't teach us how to be in relationship

49:16

, how to be human . How

49:36

to be human , it's the ability that we will have to stay human and connect at a relationship level , which

49:38

is going to be more and more important , learning skills to collaborate better and be creative

49:40

and access our creativity . You know , um , how do we have empathy for each other

49:42

, right ? How do we really come from a place of love and one

49:44

where I want to hear

49:47

your point of view , where I can

49:49

suspend my point of view and then champion

49:51

your point of view . You know , one

49:53

of my team members the other day laughed because

49:56

they said to me how do we

49:58

get to this place where you had

50:00

one point of view , point of view A , I

50:03

had point of view B and

50:05

by the end of it you are holding

50:07

my point of view and I was holding yours

50:09

. How did that swap ? And I

50:11

said that is the crux of

50:14

humanness , of conscious

50:17

and intentional relationships , where we bring

50:19

love and empathy to the table , because

50:21

I care about you and your point of view

50:24

and vice versa , that

50:26

I want to find a way

50:28

forward together and I think machines

50:30

can't take that away from us .

50:32

Some people might say well , that's all

50:35

you know . It sounds really almost

50:37

utopian . How

50:41

does that allow us to be a more successful

50:44

organization ? So

50:46

what have you seen ?

50:48

Because at the moment , we still have humans

50:50

working in our organizations . It's

50:53

the humans , who have a very human

50:55

experience , that are getting

50:57

the work done . We're not at the place

50:59

where it's just machines and one day I might be eating

51:02

my own hat but at the moment

51:04

we still have humans , and so

51:06

it's important to own

51:09

our humanness and to

51:11

help organizations do the same .

51:13

Yeah , it's a

51:15

future that we don't quite know what it's

51:17

going to look like . But , yeah , a lot

51:20

of the even if just reading lot of the , even if just reading up

51:22

on this the skills we need for the future

51:24

. That which is now is

51:26

really all about some of

51:29

the ones you just mentioned collaboration

51:31

, holding conflict much more

51:33

loosely instead of tightly being

51:35

in relationship with people who think different

51:37

from us , connected

51:40

to people who are more divergent and , as a

51:42

result , coming up with better solutions , better

51:44

creativity so all of those

51:46

are almost

51:48

must-haves and

51:50

creating team cultures

51:53

where they can flourish . Absolutely , I think it's

51:55

super important and

51:57

obviously I can see that you're passionate about

51:59

your work . You love what you do and

52:02

it's almost dangerous in today's world to

52:04

ask where are you going to be a few years from now

52:07

? Would you still be doing

52:09

this work ? What are you hoping

52:11

for ?

52:12

Sometimes I think how nice it would be to be sitting

52:15

on a beach reading a book and living my life

52:17

out in that way , but I know that not

52:19

to be true for myself , or not for very long or not for very long

52:21

. Or not for very long , especially

52:24

because of what you've just said . For me , my

52:26

work is not a job . It's

52:28

almost like a vocation . I am

52:30

driven to create more

52:32

peace in the world , one team at a time

52:35

. If I can help teams fight right or

52:37

be in better relationship , help

52:39

teams fight right or be in better relationship , then I will

52:41

feel like my work is done . My

52:44

work is valuable and

52:48

there is no end to that . There is no end to supporting

52:50

or coaching teams to

52:53

learn how to be

52:55

more empathetic , more collaborative and

52:57

to be more respectful towards each other even

52:59

during conflict . More collaborative and and to be more respectful towards

53:01

each other even during conflict . So I don't see my work

53:03

maybe slowing down , but not ever ending

53:05

. Yeah , well .

53:07

Thank you so much for today's conversation

53:09

. Thank you , um , and if

53:11

if you've listened to this conversation today

53:14

and you want to connect with linda , her contact

53:16

details will be in the notes section

53:18

of this podcast . So connect

53:20

with her , connect with the Berlotte Group team

53:22

, and I'm

53:25

sure that your team

53:27

or your leadership situation can be

53:29

equally impacted by how

53:32

Linda engages with teams . So thank

53:34

you for joining on the podcast

53:37

. It's always great to unpack

53:39

these conversations and we

53:41

will continue to work together .

53:43

We certainly will , Marco . Thank you for

53:45

inviting me on the podcast . It's always

53:47

delightful . I love these conversations between

53:49

us . We generate a lot

53:52

of sparkiness between us and I always

53:54

enjoy that .

53:54

Thank you . Thank you for listening everyone

53:57

.

53:57

Thank you everyone .

54:00

Thank you so much for joining us for this episode

54:02

of the Cultural Agility Podcast . If

54:05

you enjoyed today's episode , share

54:07

it with someone . The best way

54:09

to help us out is by leaving a review

54:11

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54:13

, or forward and recommend

54:16

this podcast to people around you . As

54:18

always , if any of the topics we

54:20

discuss today intrigue you , you will

54:22

find links to articles discussing

54:25

them in greater depth in the podcast

54:27

notes . If you would like to learn

54:29

more about intercultural intelligence and how

54:31

you can become more culturally agile , you

54:34

can find more information and hundreds

54:36

of articles at knowledgeworkscom

54:39

and hundreds of articles at

54:41

knowledgeworkscom . A

54:45

special thanks to Jason Carter for composing the music on this podcast

54:47

and to the whole KnowledgeWorks team for making this podcast a

54:49

success . Thank you , nita

54:51

Rodriguez , ara Azizbakian

54:53

, rajitha Raj and thanks

54:56

to Vip and George for audio production

54:58

, rosalind Raj for scheduling and Caleb Strauss for marketing and helping produce

55:00

this podcast . Thanks to Vip and George for audio production , rosalind Raj for scheduling and

55:02

Caleb Strauss for marketing and helping produce this podcast

55:05

.