0:00

I think if this thing goes well,

0:02

it's going to negatively impact my reputation

0:04

because it's with someone who's divisive.

0:06

And so there's going to be a lot of people who dislike

0:08

me just because of that reason. If it

0:10

goes poorly, it's going to negatively impact my reputation

0:12

because it goes poorly. There's

0:14

no way out of this. And so me just choosing

0:17

to do it one way or the other is going

0:19

to hurt me in some ways, but

0:21

I think it will help the likelihood

0:24

of this not hurting a lot of people. Hi,

0:30

everyone. Welcome to Unchained, your no-hype resource

0:32

for all things crypto. I'm

0:34

your host, Laura Shin, author of The

0:36

Cryptopians. I started coming crypto nine years

0:38

ago and as a senior editor, Forbes

0:40

was the first main-trade meter partner to

0:42

cover cryptocurrency full-time. This is the

0:44

September 17, 2024 episode of Unchained. Today's

0:48

episode is brought to you by Gemini,

0:51

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0:53

and advanced traders. Gemini is offering new

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1:56

Today's guest is Ogle, crypto security expert,

1:59

founder of Glue. We

10:00

lost the negotiation, but I was just able to find them

10:02

physically. But in the next case, where it

10:04

was a 10% return, I did not know that person. Oh,

10:07

now I get it. Yes, sometimes we do. Sometimes

10:09

we don't. And that's the gamble the person has

10:11

to take. And that's actually part

10:14

of the game theory here is you don't know what we know.

10:16

And we're not going to tell you what we know. And

10:18

a lot of times we do know who you are. A lot of

10:20

times we don't, but we'll give you the flat. We'll give you the

10:22

offer that we give everyone else. It's 10%. Or

10:25

you can worry about what happens next week. You

10:28

know, it's up to you really. Well, so

10:30

something that was also interesting that

10:32

I heard you say was you said frequently

10:34

the hackers are Asian, like

10:36

from Asian countries. Why do you think that is?

10:40

Yeah, yeah, by Asian, I mean from like

10:42

from Asia. Exactly. I'm not. There's

10:44

not like more Asian Americans, you

10:46

know, it's

10:48

like Asian countries that

10:50

typically are. I mean, I'm not really sure.

10:53

I've thought a lot about this. I've talked

10:55

about this a lot. It's very

10:57

specific Asian countries, too. Generally, it's

10:59

Hong Kong a lot of times and it's Singapore a

11:01

lot of times like you don't see Koreans

11:04

doing this very often. You don't see

11:06

mainland Chinese doing this very often, not

11:08

to the Westerners anyway. It's

11:12

usually Hong Kong and Singaporean.

11:15

And my guess to

11:17

this is because, you know, if

11:19

you go to mainland China or if you

11:21

go to Korea, if you go

11:23

to Japan, even the amount of

11:25

people who speak English is very

11:28

low relative to if you go to Hong Kong

11:30

or if you go to somewhere like Singapore. So I think that

11:32

just the sort of East East

11:34

West there where you have understanding

11:36

of nuance, you have the understanding of Western sort

11:38

of ways of doing things, you know, how to

11:40

manipulate Western sort of psychology,

11:43

perhaps a little better because you're just more exposed to

11:45

that is probably it just makes it

11:48

just like an easier place for people to play

11:51

if they happen to be there. I don't think it's like something

11:53

in the blood of Hong Kongers, you know, that's making

11:55

them more likely to do this. I think it's just they just have a

11:57

better skill set. It's so interesting.

12:00

And out of curiosity, I also heard you

12:02

say that you speak Chinese and obviously appear

12:05

to be American. So

12:07

how did you come to speak Chinese? So

12:10

I studied when I was in school, I studied as

12:13

as one of my one of the

12:15

focuses of what I studied was Chinese history.

12:19

And in studying Chinese history, you have to learn some

12:21

Chinese language. And

12:23

then there was a program like

12:27

a like a what you

12:29

call it like an exchange kind of

12:31

program with Qinghua in Beijing. And

12:34

there was an opportunity for me to go

12:36

there and study. And that's a university. I

12:38

think that's right. That's right. Yes,

12:40

one of the one of the oldest universities in

12:42

China that are there

12:44

still around. So it's so

12:46

there was an opportunity there. But that's not

12:48

really like I could have done that entire thing in

12:50

English, to be honest with you. And so it was

12:52

really after the fact that that I learned most of

12:54

most of the solid Chinese I did a Asian language

12:57

concentration like a like a 13

12:59

hours a day thing for a while learning just

13:01

just Chinese for several months. And

13:03

then ever since then I have a Duolingo right now that's got,

13:06

you know, many hundreds of days of

13:09

streak on it. So

13:11

yeah, just I just like languages. It's not just

13:13

Chinese. There are a lot of languages that I just enjoy. Generally

13:15

speaking, I like I just like cultures, I like to understand them,

13:17

I like to be able to speak to them in the way

13:19

they speak to me, they speak to each other. So

13:22

that's really what it is. All right. Well,

13:24

some one other thing that I have to ask you about.

13:27

And this just reminded

13:29

me of when I wrote about the

13:31

White Hat hackers in the Dow incident.

13:34

It was pretty much a parallel experience. But you told

13:36

the chopping block that a lot of the work you

13:38

do on this is pro bono and you often don't

13:41

get paid and frequently the teams don't even thank you.

13:44

And I wondered if is that is that so

13:46

true? Or have you kind of like professionalized so

13:48

now you can charge for it? How

13:51

Yeah, how are you doing this work? I

13:53

mean, it's actually a net loser for me because I've got

13:55

to pay for security when I travel, you

13:57

know, and I have to do a lot of like extra stuff that

13:59

I would. wheel

18:00

necessarily if you look at it from that

18:02

perspective. But I think

18:04

that there are a lot of benefits potentially

18:06

that could come from this, especially given who's

18:09

backing it and who is running it. They

18:12

could make it get to the next level in terms of

18:14

new user adoption. Oh,

18:16

interesting. Meaning you feel that they can

18:18

onboard new crypto people. Right.

18:22

Right. And this is exactly why this

18:25

is the reason that I agreed

18:27

to come and help on this, is because I think there's

18:29

going to be a lot of new people come in because

18:31

of the people who are running it who

18:33

have known for a while. And because of the people

18:36

who are backing it, such as the Trumps,

18:38

for example, almost certainly this

18:40

is going to bring in a whole new breed of people who

18:42

are going to have no idea what they're doing. Right.

18:45

And so onboarding, like

18:47

from a UX perspective, is super complicated

18:50

for most people. And

18:52

it's really, they're prone to make mistakes. And

18:54

I think that one place where I was

18:56

really hoping that I'll be able to be

18:58

helpful with this is advising

19:00

them on ways to make sure that the people

19:02

who are coming on board, the new people who

19:04

have no idea what they're doing can do so

19:06

as safely as they possibly can, can be as

19:08

not as confused as they possibly can. And when

19:10

the money's in there, that it can be stored

19:12

and managed in a safe as possible way. What

19:15

I would really hate to happen, of course, is

19:17

people bring it on, they follow the president

19:19

or whatever, and they say, you know what, I don't know what

19:22

this crap is, but boy, I'm excited. And they

19:24

bring in 250 bucks or 500 bucks

19:26

or whatever is important to them. And then, you

19:28

know, six weeks later, it's gone. Like, first off,

19:30

it's bad for them. Right. But

19:32

secondly, it's awful for the industry. You know, these

19:34

are a lot of people who are their first

19:37

impression is going to be complete crap. And

19:39

if I could help at all to stop that, and we

19:41

can actually build some believers out of these people, I think

19:43

that's an awesome net win for crypto. And

19:46

it sounded like from the way you

19:48

worded one of

19:50

your sentences earlier that they approached you about

19:52

becoming an advisor. Is that the case? That's

19:55

correct. Okay. And

19:57

so Yeah.

20:01

You're an interviewer. So when I started talking, you're

20:03

like, yeah,

20:07

so basically the story is one

20:09

of the other advisors called

20:11

me, I was walking around and he called me and he

20:14

said, hey, can I, or he messaged me and he said,

20:16

can we do a quick call? Because I'm going to be

20:18

announced soon for this thing. I said, whoa, holy smokes, really?

20:20

That's incredible. Yeah. Feel

20:22

free to call me. He said, yeah, I just want to go

20:24

over some details of how to keep myself safe, how to keep

20:26

my family safe, because there's going to be some eyeballs on this,

20:28

then, you know, some hate on this that maybe we don't want

20:31

to be susceptible to. And I said, not

20:33

a problem at all. Give me a ring. So we got

20:35

on the phone like five minutes later, and we talked for about 35

20:37

minutes, and I just went through a list of like what you should

20:39

do to keep your Twitter account safe.

20:41

How do you lock down your Discord? You know,

20:43

just basic stuff, but just making sure that everything's

20:45

aligned. How do you use different phones to stay

20:47

safe, different phone numbers, 2FA, multi,

20:49

you know, all this other stuff. And

20:52

by the way, I didn't know who

20:54

was involved at that point besides him. I said, hey,

20:56

look, if anybody else on the team, if they need

20:58

some assistance on this, if they need input, I don't

21:00

want to have 40 30 minute calls. But I'm happy

21:02

like if you get everyone on the call one time,

21:05

give some some input on this just because if you're telling

21:07

me you're doing this, and it's gonna be a bunch of

21:09

new users, now I'm starting to freak out worry about new

21:11

users are going to be they're going to have vulnerabilities. So

21:13

I said, look, if anybody else wants

21:15

this, I'm happy to do like a group call and

21:18

give us an input. He said, thanks

21:20

so much. Well, fast forward a couple

21:22

of days. And I saw that I

21:24

saw I kind of heard through the grapevine that

21:27

the people who were running

21:29

the thing, so Chase Harrow and

21:31

Zach folkman that, well, I

21:34

heard they were running it. And I was like, Oh, wait a minute. I've

21:37

known these guys for over 10 years, like

21:39

from a prior industry, like this is kind

21:41

of crazy to hear. They

21:43

had asked that advisor to bring

21:45

me to talk to them, but didn't know who I

21:48

was because my name online is not my real name.

21:50

And they know me as my real name. And

21:52

so once we kind of got in the same group, we got on

21:54

a call and they're like, Wait, what is you?

21:57

Whoa, what? Oh, and I'm like, Yeah,

21:59

it's me. the

26:01

likelihood of this not hurting a lot of people.

26:04

I know it sounds like BS probably to a lot of people

26:06

out there who's like, oh, you can't possibly look at things in

26:08

that light, but that's actually literally how I'm looking at this.

26:11

The same reason that I do things like glue, like I

26:13

think maybe incorrectly, maybe

26:17

correctly that my contributions

26:19

here will help to keep it and make it a

26:21

safer situation for a lot of people. And if I

26:23

can do that, then I'll do it. I'll just eat

26:25

the reputation. I'll eat these stupid posts like today came

26:28

out with some nobody who has

26:30

a lot of things to say, but not a lot of

26:32

things to back it up. I'll just eat it. It doesn't

26:34

stress me out. It doesn't bother me. And

26:36

yeah, the show must go on, I

26:38

guess. Yeah,

26:40

spoken like a true crypto believer, I guess

26:43

I would say. It's like you sound very

26:45

dedicated to just growing the crypto pie. I

26:48

did want to ask though, so

26:51

as we mentioned about Lauren, Tiffany Trump's

26:53

ex-accounts being hacked, I

26:55

imagine that this project just has so many

26:57

more hackers and security attacks

26:59

aimed at it than a normal

27:01

project. So how do

27:04

you think about security for something that has such

27:06

a large target painted on its back? Yes,

27:09

there's a few things. First off, I just want to be clear.

27:11

I'm not like the head of security at this thing. I'm not

27:13

on the team, so I'm not the

27:15

one making the decisions for security. I'm advising. I

27:19

can give advice all day long. If it followed, then that'd

27:21

be great. If it's not, then that's just how life goes.

27:24

And I think this is actually to the

27:26

point that you make about risk. I think this is where my

27:28

risk actually lies, is if I

27:30

make particular suggestions and they're not taken, then

27:33

people are going to say, oh, but you're

27:35

the security guy, why not? And they're going

27:38

to conflate head of security position with security

27:40

advisor. But the way you would

27:42

actually approach this is first off, you would do something

27:44

comprehensive, which I hope I'm able to do for these

27:46

guys. I'm hoping I'm able to come in and say,

27:49

look, these are the 78 things that you should be

27:51

doing every single person on this team

27:54

to make sure there are no weak links. That

27:56

includes putting 2FA on your Twitter accounts, using

27:58

all the stuff I would go into. big

28:00

long list about, you know, for them to do. Hopefully,

28:02

everyone will do them. This would include

28:05

doing, doing other things. So for example, one

28:07

of the founders hit me up a couple days ago, and he said,

28:09

Hey, oh, we've been thinking about it. We

28:11

want to make sure this is as secure as it

28:13

possibly can be. What can we do to make sure

28:15

that that a situation like dough doesn't happen again? Because

28:18

they because they had a hack before, right? And

28:20

they didn't know I was Ogle. So they didn't ever hit

28:22

me up for help. So but I guess they probably would

28:24

have if they had known

28:26

that. But they said, What can we do? I

28:28

said, Okay, I'm glad you're asking that. That's a proactive question to

28:30

ask. So what we need to do is do a

28:33

run through a dry run. And so basically,

28:35

we'll, we'll pretend like it happens, go

28:37

through several different things that could pretend like they happen,

28:39

set aside several hours on a Saturday, and then we'll

28:41

go through it, we'll make mistakes, we'll figure out who's

28:44

going to be the person who does the communications, who's

28:46

going to be the person who, you know,

28:48

who, who corrals all the helpers, who's going to be the

28:50

person who's doing the blockchain sleuthing, who's going to be the

28:52

person who locks down the tech, whatever, we'll

28:55

figure that out during that process. And

28:58

that way, this fire drill, as they call them,

29:00

we'll have a little bit of muscle memory there.

29:02

So if something does happen, it can be closed

29:04

down fast, right? And so there's lots

29:06

of these sorts of things that you can do proactively.

29:08

Then there's other things to you can be audits, which

29:10

they have, for my understanding, they've

29:13

been audited four times now, the new code that

29:15

they've done is got four audits, which

29:17

is great. But you can do continuous

29:19

audits, you can use companies, there are companies

29:21

out there that actively look for, for

29:23

exploits that are happening on chain on a per

29:25

transaction basis. I know things

29:28

like like, like Ironblocks, aka Vin,

29:30

has this sort of real time monitoring and

29:32

transaction, they call it like a firewall. So

29:34

you can do that you can implement things

29:36

like that. There's all sorts of different things

29:38

we could do. I'm hoping their appetite is really

29:40

large, because I've got a lot of food to give them,

29:43

if it turns out that it is. Alright,

29:46

so in a moment, we're going to talk a little

29:48

bit more about world liberty financial, as well as crypto

29:50

security in general. But first, a quick word from the

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at meridian.stellar.org by using the

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code unchainedpod. Back to my

32:47

conversation with Ogle. CoinDesk

32:51

reported that at least an early version of

32:53

the project's code that later went offline, it

32:57

did seem that that code had been lifted straight

32:59

from DO Finance, which as we mentioned had already

33:01

been hacked. So I don't

33:03

know what you can say about the current

33:05

state of things. You

33:07

know, apparently they're launching just in a few days.

33:10

What's your confidence level? I

33:12

can't have a comment on the confidence level of the code because

33:15

I haven't seen it. But I

33:17

can say that something being forked from

33:19

something else with, that

33:21

was at once problematic is not an issue.

33:23

Like this is how everything works. You

33:26

fork it and then you fix it. And then now you have

33:28

a working product with a fixed bug. You don't

33:30

need to reinvent everything and rewrite every line of code

33:32

for it to be good. So if there was a

33:35

DO Finance hack, which it was apparently, there

33:37

was one thing that was wrong with it. Fair

33:39

enough. They fixed that. Should be fine.

33:42

I mean, this is theoretically how it works. That's what the

33:44

audits are for, right? But

33:46

how confident people should be coming into it is

33:48

really a personal decision. It's not one that I

33:51

haven't seen the code, so I can't comment on it myself and I

33:53

can't vouch for it. Okay.

33:56

And can you give us a sense of the organizational structure behind World Liberty

34:00

Financial, Barron Trump is listed

34:02

as the DeFi visionary. But

34:04

apparently it's really more the other

34:06

sons, Eric Trump and Donald Jr.

34:08

who play a bigger

34:11

role. But can you just give

34:13

us a sense of how involved they all are?

34:15

And, you know, who else is

34:17

part of this? Chase and

34:19

Zach are pretty much the ones who are running it.

34:21

And they're quite successful in the past. I know you've

34:23

mentioned some stuff, you know, some kind of more embarrassing,

34:27

seemingly named businesses like

34:29

Pick It Up Hot Girls, LLC, or whatever,

34:31

some have run. But I know that Chase

34:33

and Zach have both run very successful companies.

34:35

They've done very, very well. Neither

34:37

one of them, I can very confidently

34:39

say are doing this for the deck to

34:41

make cash. That's not the situation. I feel

34:43

very confident about that just knowing their backgrounds.

34:46

But I think they're the business people

34:49

here. That's the way it feels to

34:51

me. And then it

34:53

comes with the support and

34:55

ideation of the Trump. This is what

34:57

I understand. And so I wasn't

34:59

involved in the early days. So I can't say like how

35:01

everything happened. But what I do understand there to

35:03

have been happening is a lot of conversations, a

35:06

lot of buy in over the course of a

35:08

long period of time to make sure

35:10

there was a lot of education on the part of the

35:12

Trump side. And there was a lot of alignment on the

35:14

part of the guys who are running it. But

35:16

what I've been told, the

35:19

Trump's get it. And they believe

35:21

it. And it's not BS. And

35:23

because what I was worried about, I'll be honest, my

35:25

concerns, okay, you know, here's same concern. I think a

35:27

lot of other people have is okay, look, there's a

35:29

quick way to make a few, you know, to get

35:31

a lot to get a few, few hundred million dollars

35:34

of donations or whatever. And like, that's going to be,

35:36

you know, that's just that's just what it is. And

35:38

they don't really care about crypto, like, you know, this

35:41

is kind of where I was, what I was

35:43

worried about. But from having discussions with people who I've known for

35:45

a long time, who I trust to tell me the truth, they

35:48

said, Oh, listen, like these, these

35:50

guys really believe in this, that we've talked to

35:52

them over the course of a long time,

35:54

we've sold them a vision of how this could

35:56

actually solidify and strengthen the United States dollar period.

36:00

how this could solidify and strengthen the United

36:02

States tech sector, period. They believe in

36:04

it, and they see it as the future, and they want

36:06

to be a part of that process, and that's why we are where we

36:08

are. When you talk about

36:10

their, quote-unquote, belief, this is

36:13

a family that has made its money off

36:15

of centralized ventures.

36:18

Are you talking about a

36:20

belief in decentralization and in

36:22

decentralized projects and decentralized finances?

36:25

Is that what they're on board

36:27

with? I

36:29

believe they're on board with the idea. I

36:34

think there's personal frustration on the part of

36:37

at least a couple of the Trump sons

36:39

with being de-banked or unbanked.

36:43

They were made where they can't do banking

36:45

in the traditional sense because of their ties to

36:47

their dad. This is an

36:49

understanding that I've gotten from some things

36:51

I've read. I think they like

36:54

the idea that people can have in

36:56

their own control, the opportunity and

36:58

the option to do as they wish with their

37:00

money. They can lend

37:02

or borrow with their own money, no matter

37:04

if people like them or not. I

37:07

think that this

37:10

is just conjecture. I

37:13

imagine that's probably what's most exciting. I don't know

37:15

if decentralization per se is the most exciting thing.

37:17

I don't know necessarily like exactly

37:19

philosophically where they land on that from

37:21

a DeFi point of view. But

37:24

I think they really believe in the fact

37:26

that you shouldn't be kept

37:28

from doing something you want to and you should have

37:31

a right to just because someone doesn't like you on

37:33

a personal basis, which is a decentralization in a certain

37:35

sense. It's like a less centralization. I don't know if

37:37

it's like a totally decentralization. I don't know. It's like

37:39

we have we have 2000 nodes that are confirming things.

37:44

I don't know how decentralized they want to see it because

37:46

they are making a platform. So there's like a

37:48

certain level of centralization by

37:50

making your own platform. But what

37:54

I said is what I think is probably the case. The

37:57

philosophy is in line. I understand.

38:00

Well, speaking of decentralization, the project

38:02

also has a governance token WLFI,

38:04

which is non-transferable,

38:07

at least for launch, hilariously

38:09

on the chopping block when

38:11

they were discussing this. Tarun

38:14

Chitra of Gauntlet said something like,

38:17

oh, it should be tied to

38:20

an oracle that makes it

38:22

transferable if Trump wins the election,

38:24

which I thought was a

38:26

funny comment on, you know, obviously the

38:28

issues that the crypto industry has with

38:30

SEC under Biden,

38:32

the SEC under Biden, or

38:35

under Gensler, I really should say. But

38:37

anyway, can you talk a little bit about, you

38:39

know, what they're planning in terms of governance, you

38:42

know, why this is transferable? You

38:44

know, what are their plans? So generally, you

38:46

know, these types of projects start centralized and

38:48

then become more decentralized over time. So

38:51

can you talk a little bit about that? I

38:53

can't talk a whole lot about it. I mean, there is an

38:55

NDA in place and I've been told a little bit of how

38:58

things will probably work or how they might work. I

39:01

think, if I'm being honest, I think some of

39:03

this is still TBD a little bit. Like, I mean,

39:05

I know some of the, I saw Danny Nelson and

39:07

the other authors, I thought, saw their article in Queen

39:09

Desk. And I think that a lot of

39:12

the, I think

39:14

the draft that they got is, has

39:16

a lot of TBD information in it. It

39:18

was a very premature draft. I've

39:22

asked specific questions like what you're asking me

39:24

and I've asked specific questions around tokenomics, like

39:26

you probably would ask me to. And

39:29

the answer is that I'm getting is like, what

39:32

you've seen online is not correct completely. We're

39:34

working through this. We're still pivoting. We're still

39:36

pulling. We're still pushing. We're trying

39:38

to figure out, you know, what levers need

39:40

to go where and time will tell. So

39:43

governance, I think is exactly what the thing is meant to

39:45

be for in the beginning. I

39:48

don't know if that's a forever thing or if it's going to

39:50

be just a short term thing. But I do know

39:52

that's the goal. I don't think that,

39:55

you know, it's necessarily wise to pick

39:58

a fight with, with. Gisler

40:00

on things being securities. So

40:03

if I were to look at this from one

40:05

angle, I think that Tarun has a

40:08

fair point. But that's just

40:10

my own personal opinion here. Maybe you're a

40:13

little bit safer depending upon certain outcomes than

40:15

others. All

40:17

right. And actually, just from the way

40:19

you're answering these questions, it really does

40:22

feel to me like your primary role

40:24

has been advising them maybe

40:26

on how to do security, but you're

40:28

not necessarily advising them on like the

40:30

nuts and bolts of the project itself.

40:33

Am I getting that correct? Yeah.

40:35

I mean, if they had asked me to come and be an

40:38

advisor for the project in general, I would have said no, because

40:40

I just don't have time. Because I have my own projects and

40:42

I'm working on it. I simply don't have time for that. I

40:44

can't run another project, but I

40:47

do have time to give advice a couple hours

40:49

a week on security related topics. So yeah, you're

40:51

correct. Okay. I'm

40:53

sorry, because I know it's not quite as useful. It's

40:55

not quite as interesting. I did

40:57

that, but that's all I got for you. All

41:00

right. Well, one thing that you might have gleaned,

41:02

which I am also curious about, is whether or

41:04

not it seems to you

41:07

that the family expects that this

41:09

crypto project will help Trump's presidential

41:11

campaign because they are launching it

41:13

before the election. So I

41:15

don't know if you have any insight into that. My

41:18

understanding is that former President

41:20

Trump is extremely excited about this, like

41:22

very excited about it. And I

41:25

can tell you, I went to the NFT

41:27

gala down in Mar-a-Lago the first time, the

41:29

second time I was supposed to go, but

41:31

I got sick. Wait,

41:34

the first time? Are you talking about the one

41:36

last fall or the one this May?

41:38

Yeah, the one last fall. Okay, got it.

41:41

So I went to that one. I was supposed to

41:43

go to the second one as well, but I did not make it

41:45

because I was unwell. But I went to it

41:47

the first time and I

41:49

very briefly got to talk to

41:51

President Trump. And I

41:53

was surprised. You never know

41:55

what's BS and what's not, whatever you're talking to a politician. And

41:58

so I was very... surprised

42:01

at what he

42:03

seemed to understand about NFTs in general. Now it

42:05

could have been he was just memorizing things, but

42:07

he doesn't seem like a memorizer. He seems like

42:09

someone who just sort of BSes or he actually

42:11

knows something and sort of comes out. And

42:13

he didn't seem to memorize. He seemed like he actually knew

42:16

what we were talking about when we were

42:18

talking about NFT related stuff. And I was

42:20

like, wow, that's actually really surprising. And we

42:22

left from there. I brought my grandpa with

42:24

me and a friend of mine. And

42:27

my grandpa, after we left from there, he

42:29

got to meet President Trump and shake his hand and all that. And he

42:31

goes, boy, that man's older than

42:33

me. And he seems to know all this about technology.

42:35

I should probably look into that. And

42:37

I was like, God, man, that's incredible. Trump

42:40

is a bridge to a whole group of

42:44

people who otherwise would probably be

42:46

like, God, this is all too complicated for me.

42:48

Anyway, I'm not answering your

42:50

question. I'm just telling you something else right now. So

42:53

I was surprised at that point, and this was about a year

42:55

ago almost now. And then evidently,

42:57

in the one that happened in the

42:59

spring, he was even more adept. And

43:02

then at BTC

43:04

Nashville, he seemed even

43:06

more adept and more understanding of

43:08

this stuff. And now he's

43:11

backing a project that's in it. And

43:14

so if you look at me,

43:17

only the person who has in their heart what their

43:19

motivation is would know what their motivation is. But

43:21

I think that you can see the amount

43:24

of donations that are coming in from the crypto

43:26

sector. What I read online was right now for

43:28

Trump is the second biggest sector giving

43:31

donations on a dollar per dollar basis.

43:33

And so if that's true, then how do you

43:35

ignore that? You're talking about the new teachers union

43:37

here. You have to pay attention. You

43:39

have to at least pretend like you

43:42

care. And if pretending like you care is

43:44

enough to get people to come into crypto and actually

43:46

give our whole slice of the world a shot, then

43:48

that works for me. Yeah,

43:50

honestly, I actually think this week I read

43:52

that crypto is the biggest donor so far

43:54

in the election. I

43:57

think it keeps flip-flopping back and

43:59

forth. first and second, but

44:02

the other thing that I thought was so

44:04

funny was when you said he didn't seem

44:06

like a memorizer because we're recording after the

44:08

debate where that was the commentary that he

44:11

probably practiced a lot of answers and didn't actually

44:13

give them during the debate. Anyway,

44:17

so, you know, as

44:19

I mentioned, we are recording before the launch, but

44:22

I did wonder, do you have any prediction

44:24

for what the TVL of World Liberty Financial

44:26

might be on the first day? If

44:29

it's, if it, if

44:32

it ends up being less than, then she but

44:35

you knew, then that'll be a weird thing. Wait,

44:37

a less than she but you know now or

44:39

less than she but you know, like at some,

44:42

you know, like all time high.

44:45

She but you know, but I mean she knew as it is today.

44:48

Wow. Because I think I

44:50

think the height behind I think people underestimate

44:52

how much mobility of funds, this

44:55

is probably going to probably going to have offline,

44:59

like, like, like when I talked to like, when

45:02

I talked to, you know, family members and so

45:04

forth who have no idea what this is. They're

45:06

like, I don't know what it is, but

45:08

I heard he's going to do it. So I'm going to put

45:11

5000 in, you know, everyone's like, okay,

45:13

there's people. Well,

45:15

okay, so just just for the audience at

45:18

the time of recording the sheep at Enos

45:20

market cap is $8 billion. So

45:22

you're saying on day one, you think the

45:24

TVL in this will be $8 billion. If

45:27

you mean day one in like the literal

45:29

day 24 hour period, I'm talking more biblical,

45:32

you know, the biblical day one, but, but,

45:35

um, okay, so like within

45:37

the first month ish. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

45:39

yeah. Like whenever, like when people have had time to get

45:41

their money from the bank and put it into Coinbase and

45:43

send it onto the chain, you know, do whatever they got

45:46

to do. I

45:48

think that that first flow what you know, like, like the

45:50

first inflows, I think they're going to be significant probably. Oh,

45:53

wow. Okay. Which would put

45:56

it on par with like wrapped Bitcoin

45:58

higher than like chain link. Uniswap,

46:01

die, near. Okay,

46:03

interesting. Now, this, by the

46:06

way, is going to depend heavily, I think,

46:08

on it getting a little more traction because right now it's

46:10

got a little bit less traction than I thought it would,

46:12

if I'm being honest. And there has

46:14

been some fud even in the crypto sphere, like you said.

46:17

But I think in a few

46:19

days, like you were saying, so it will be a couple days ago,

46:21

once this airs, President

46:23

Trump will have said his piece. He'll have debuted

46:25

it. And I think if that lands, it's going

46:27

to super land. If it doesn't

46:30

land, then I take back everything I've just said

46:32

and we'll figure it out. Okay.

46:35

And actually, I realized one other thing I'd forgotten to ask you

46:38

is, so which chains will it be on? What

46:41

I've read is it'll be Ethereum. Okay.

46:44

Okay. And do you know if

46:46

it's on any L2s as well? I

46:48

don't know anything else about that. I mean, I would

46:51

love, there are specific places where I would love

46:53

for it to be, but all I've heard about

46:55

is Ethereum. Okay. Yeah. And

46:58

it would probably help juice

47:00

it if it was on

47:02

base, arbitrum, optimism. I

47:05

think especially base, yeah. Because you shoot for

47:07

checking Coinbase and the base, boom. Yeah, I

47:09

think you're right. Yeah.

47:12

Yeah. Okay. Well, we'll

47:14

have to see. This is, yeah, it's going to be an

47:16

interesting thing to watch. Well,

47:18

at the same time, you are yourself working

47:21

on your own layer one, which is glue.

47:24

So just describe that for us. How is

47:26

glue going to be different from other layer

47:28

ones and why did you decide to launch

47:30

it? Sure. So we've been

47:33

building this for almost three years now, actually. So

47:35

it's been around, we've been building it for a

47:37

while. We're just about to go live with our

47:39

testnet and the mainnet will be not too far

47:41

from now, but it's an

47:43

L1 with L2s actually, and

47:46

non-adversarial L2s. And

47:49

the idea basically was to try to

47:51

accomplish some of the same things. And this is a

47:53

little bit why there's an alignment with World Liberty, is

47:56

try to figure out ways to onboard lots

47:58

of new people. but keep them

48:00

really safe whenever we do it. And so

48:02

right now the onboarding experience is complete trash

48:05

in crypto. User experience is complete

48:07

trash in crypto. If you look back at

48:09

projects that you interviewed six years ago, and

48:11

you look at the UX and you look

48:13

at the UX of projects you interviewed two

48:15

months ago, not a whole lot of difference.

48:17

I mean, it's pretty much just as complicated

48:20

as it has been the whole time.

48:22

And that's a major barrier. It reminds

48:24

me of in the 90s when

48:26

you had to use consoles to use

48:29

links to do text-based browsing. You

48:31

had eventually someone in

48:35

recent comes up with Netscape and you have

48:37

nice visual ways of doing stuff, but we

48:39

haven't got there yet. And so the UX

48:41

is complete trash in crypto

48:43

almost across the board. Most of what's

48:45

being done, in my view, in crypto

48:48

is, how should I say it, is

48:51

being done to show off how smart people are,

48:53

basically. And so it's

48:56

like a lot of like, oh, you have

48:58

this particular algorithm with this particular way of

49:00

blah, blah, blah, like re yada, yada, and

49:02

this and well, I have a separate way

49:04

to do this. And I can do it

49:06

blindly, in fact, using zero knowledge. Oh, but

49:08

I have a faster zero, who freaking cares?

49:10

Like, it just doesn't matter. Like, if you

49:12

talk to like a regular person, no one

49:14

cares about that. That's not how people are

49:16

going to come into crypto. And so

49:19

the way you're going to come into crypto is you say, hey, look, there's

49:22

a place where you can put your money, you

49:24

can make money on that, you can safely

49:26

do that. And if you have a problem,

49:28

there's somewhere to call. That's how people come

49:31

on to crypto. Simple that there's

49:33

nothing more to it. And so we've designed

49:36

a thing called glue glue.net

49:38

as the URL. And the

49:40

onboarding experience, like you can sign up with Google,

49:42

you don't have to have a MetaMask wallet, you

49:44

can sign up with Google SSO, it abstracts away

49:47

a lot of the complicated crap that goes on

49:49

in crypto. And people can see their money, they

49:51

can track their stuff. There's a coin market cap

49:53

competitor inside of there. There's essentially a D bank

49:55

competitor, a portfolio viewer, there's a way for you

49:57

to buy stuff, you can sell stuff, you can.

50:00

lend things, but you can't borrow things unless you

50:02

go into advanced mode. So there's lots of these

50:04

things that take away some of the choice for

50:06

regular people unless they go into advanced mode. It

50:08

takes away some of the choice, but makes it

50:10

simple. So another example I'll give

50:12

you on that is right now, let's say you own

50:15

Apple stock, and you want to own some Google stock.

50:18

Can you sell Apple for Google? It doesn't

50:20

work like that. You go Apple to USD,

50:22

and then you go and you buy some

50:24

Google with that, right? So these

50:26

things are great if you really, really know

50:28

what you're doing. If you can trade BTC

50:30

to eat, it's fine because there's all these

50:32

moving numbers and decimals everywhere. But for regular

50:35

people, it's too complicated. They want to know,

50:37

okay, I get a hundred dollars back. Great.

50:40

Now I feel clean. What do I

50:42

do with my hundred dollars? Okay. And so in our

50:44

system, it's a lot more

50:46

familiar to people who are just regular

50:48

folks. Last thing I'll say

50:50

there is we built in a lot of security stuff

50:54

for what I call the buns of the

50:56

burger. So we have institutional people,

50:58

and we have regular folks coming in. There's a lot

51:00

of barriers there too. And so if

51:03

you were to send me 500 bucks, which I hope

51:05

you do, then nothing would get triggered. But on the

51:07

other hand, if you were to send me $5 million,

51:09

or if you were to send me all of your

51:11

money at one time, you would

51:14

require 2FA. And so it's sending you

51:16

a text message and say, hey, did you mean to send

51:18

every dollar of your money to Ogle? Did you mean to

51:20

send $50,000? And these are

51:22

parameters you can set that if it goes

51:24

outside the parameters, if what your wallet does

51:26

outside the parameters, you get double checked. So

51:28

now we get rid of rugs. We get

51:30

rid of money

51:33

being pulled from your account without you knowing it. We get rid

51:35

of front facing hacks that

51:37

put a different version of PCS on top

51:39

of PCS. Now a lot of these things

51:41

are fixed by a lot of these sorts of

51:43

things we put into the platform. This

51:45

is super random. But as you've been talking, I

51:47

just keep thinking about Taylor Monahan. Have you chatted

51:50

with her or worked with her? Because I

51:52

feel like she's I don't

51:54

know, I feel like if you two got together, you could

51:57

really jam on some idea. I've worked with

51:59

Taylor. Taylor 50 times

52:02

on different hacks and stuff. We're in war rooms

52:04

a lot of times together. We've never met in

52:07

real life, which is too bad because I feel

52:09

like we'll be able to really riff

52:11

through. Actually, so I'm gonna be speaking at token 2049

52:13

here soon. And I

52:15

was talking to Alex Fiskin. I said,

52:17

hey, who do you think should moderate me? And

52:19

he said, have you ever met Taylor

52:21

Monahan? I think she'll

52:23

be a great moderator for your panel.

52:26

And it's not gonna work out. I'm

52:29

getting interviewed by someone else. But yeah,

52:32

she had a similar thought to you, I think, in that. Yeah,

52:34

yeah. Well, so also as you were

52:37

talking, you described the

52:39

Google sign-on and all these different things. It

52:42

does sound obviously like

52:44

it resolves a lot of the issues that we've

52:46

seen over the years, but it also sounds more

52:49

centralized in a way it reminded me kind

52:51

of like AOL back in the day. So

52:56

what elements of this are centralized? Like

52:58

what are the trade-offs that you're making?

53:01

I love the analogy of AOL because that's exactly

53:03

what I was thinking about from

53:05

the get-go. I'm thinking of my childhood when I had

53:07

that experience and then you could also open up internet

53:09

explorer and get around all the parental controls. You have

53:11

your way to get to advance. You have your way

53:14

to get to the advanced mode if you know how

53:16

to, but if you don't, you stay inside of

53:18

the silo and you can't really do a whole lot

53:21

that it's gonna mess you up. The

53:23

glue system itself is not centralized and

53:25

that's actually what makes it safer than

53:29

something like Coinbase. What we're trying to shoot for is

53:31

the Coinbase crowd and they

53:33

don't know it, but it's safer. We want to

53:35

prevent issues that came from Myshinsky and Celsius. We

53:38

want to prevent FTX issues. We want to prevent

53:40

your money being locked in the system because your

53:42

money was taken and something else

53:44

was done. We want to prevent that stuff. And

53:46

whether users know why or not, we

53:49

just want it to actually be safer. But

53:51

we want the user experience to be good,

53:54

better, the way that it is on Coinbase, the way that it

53:56

is in a Mysh app. And so all of

53:59

that that I would. was describing to you, with

54:01

the exception of the multifactor and stuff, all

54:03

of this lives in what's called the hub.

54:05

So it's hub.glue.net. It's live right now, parts

54:08

of it are anyway. But

54:10

if you don't ever want to go to the hub

54:12

and you just want to interact on our L2s and

54:14

just do regular DeFi stuff and trade on Uniswap and

54:16

like do all the other stuff outside of this, you're

54:18

totally free to. And there's a lot of benefit to

54:21

it. We built this in a way that DeFi people

54:23

should be super stoked. But our

54:26

focus is not on that. Like that exists. That

54:28

is decentralized. That is the way that everyone hopes

54:30

it'll be. That's like clicking in an

54:32

explorer and getting out of the silo. But

54:35

for the people we're shooting for, it's the hub. That's

54:38

our UX that we want them to experience. Okay,

54:41

got it. So I'm assuming that when

54:43

people create an account on Glue, they

54:45

don't need to write down a seed

54:47

phrase? They don't

54:49

need to. It will not be necessary to. Okay.

54:53

Now, they don't have to create a hub account to

54:55

begin with. You never have to interact with the hub.

54:57

You go in there, just add our RPC, and

54:59

you can interact with stuff just normal. You

55:02

don't ever have to even go to the hub. I

55:05

can't control the UX of other apps and the network.

55:07

So then what do I say is my differentiator there?

55:10

Why am I different than Optimism or Arbitrum or

55:12

whatever else? There are reasons. I can

55:14

give you tech reasons. I can

55:16

talk about our services layer and our security fund

55:19

where I go chase down bad guys if they

55:21

do stuff, which by the way is exactly what's

55:23

going to happen. You come rug on Glue. We

55:25

will chase you down with every bit of effort

55:28

as we possibly can because the

55:30

idea is we can't make it foolproof, but

55:33

we can make it where you'd rather go somewhere

55:35

else. If you had two stores and

55:37

one of the stores is called a

55:39

Ethereum store, you can walk in and you can steal something

55:41

and you can walk right back out and no one's going

55:43

to do anything. Most of the time, you

55:46

can just steal the food. On the other

55:48

side, you have the Glue store, which has turrets and

55:50

guns and bodyguards on the outside of it. Maybe they

55:52

miss every shot they take. You never know, but is

55:54

that really the risk you want to take? Just

55:57

go somewhere where it's a little bit safer. We want to make

55:59

our place in Gems. can

1:06:00

attribute or whether anyone can reasonably attribute that for

1:06:02

sure to Korea, I think is tough

1:06:05

to say. Okay,

1:06:07

but do you have any tips

1:06:10

that you feel like people should

1:06:12

be following to prevent

1:06:14

being hacked by them or those

1:06:18

moments when you are suspicious that it

1:06:20

is likely them? Are there new

1:06:22

behaviors you're seeing from them or new trends you're

1:06:24

seeing and how they're trying to attack crypto

1:06:27

projects? Yeah, they're just so clever now,

1:06:29

like socially, they're so clever. You know, a lot of this

1:06:31

is like they they are

1:06:33

doing basically to the attack, what

1:06:36

I tried to do to the recovery, which

1:06:38

is to like humanize it and

1:06:40

personalize it. Oh,

1:06:42

wait, they do. You're saying they do

1:06:45

social engineering, like where they Oh,

1:06:48

wow. And that's why they're so good now

1:06:50

because they're getting so good at that. Like

1:06:52

that's actually what they're doing. It's not like, oh,

1:06:54

they seem like a PDF and people people are

1:06:56

people are not opening PDFs as much as they

1:06:58

used to. They're not opening exe files and running

1:07:00

them on their system with admin privileges. They're not

1:07:02

doing that so much anymore. Most of the big

1:07:04

companies have, you know, your own your own laptop

1:07:06

that doesn't allow that kind of stuff. But

1:07:09

what they're doing is they're spearfishing, they call it.

1:07:12

And so they'll look for, you

1:07:14

know, they're not going to target you, Laura, they're going to

1:07:16

target your assistant, right? And they're going

1:07:19

to spend three weeks learning everything about your assistant.

1:07:21

They're going to look at them on Facebook, they're

1:07:23

going to look at their Instagram, they're going to

1:07:25

memorize all the stuff, they're going to have a

1:07:27

whole dossier about the assistant, then they're going to

1:07:29

hit up your assistant and say, Hey, look, assistant,

1:07:31

assistant, I haven't talked to him forever. It's been

1:07:33

so long. But do you remember this is Zach

1:07:35

from blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, we went and

1:07:37

did this and this together. Was that crazy? Anyway,

1:07:39

if you're still around, hit me up. I haven't

1:07:41

talked to your driver. And if it's, if

1:07:43

it's a person that that person Yeah, I remember Zach,

1:07:45

but then we weren't really close friends. But

1:07:48

I do remember Zach, then they'll actually

1:07:50

engage. And when they engage, they, they

1:07:52

spend weeks on building out a personal

1:07:55

relationship, they'll bring in friendship, they'll even

1:07:57

make sometimes videos or pictures that

1:08:00

that are fake a lot of times, but it's not

1:08:02

very hard to do these deep fakes these days. They'll

1:08:05

build a whole relationship with this person and they'll

1:08:07

say, hey, look, I've actually got a

1:08:09

job. I'm over here working at blah, blah, blah.

1:08:12

I'm sure Laura's great, but have

1:08:14

you ever thought about working at Paradigm? Someone's

1:08:17

like, oh, shoot, fricking Paradigm. Oh, man,

1:08:19

I've always dreamed of working at Paradigm. How do they know that?

1:08:21

Because they've done all this research on this person. This person followed

1:08:23

Paradigm from day one. So they know

1:08:25

they love Paradigm. And so they say, oh, yeah, well,

1:08:28

you know what? I'm going to get you an in

1:08:30

on this. I'm going to take care of you because

1:08:32

we are old classmates from 2003 or whatever. Tell

1:08:35

you what, though, my computer security doesn't allow

1:08:37

me, these guys are really, really hardcore about

1:08:39

security. They don't let us use Zoom and

1:08:42

whatnot. We have to use Zincaster

1:08:45

in this case. And so

1:08:49

what you want to do is you want to download

1:08:51

Zincaster and then join me and we'll talk about it

1:08:53

tomorrow. So the person downloads it. Now they trust them.

1:08:55

They get downloaded on the computer. Maybe

1:08:58

the app actually works. They do have a conversation.

1:09:00

They talk. The video doesn't work on

1:09:02

the other side. Unfortunately, something's wrong. But now there's

1:09:05

a virus in the system. Now

1:09:07

there's a virus inside of the large

1:09:09

network. So now they can read your emails

1:09:11

that you send. Now they can send emails

1:09:13

on your behalf. Now they can learn more about whoever else

1:09:16

their next target is and now they can do bad stuff.

1:09:18

So if you're an ETF that

1:09:20

actually has to have assets, they're backing what it is

1:09:22

you're trading. That's access potentially to a

1:09:24

lot of money. If you're a big crypto company that

1:09:27

has users information that's very valuable,

1:09:30

now there's access. So this is how they do

1:09:32

it. And they're really clever about it. They're really

1:09:34

good at being patient and playing this long game.

1:09:40

Oh my God, I have so many questions. But one

1:09:42

of the things that really surprises me is that their

1:09:45

English is good enough to do all those things. But

1:09:49

the impression that I've had is their

1:09:52

English tends not to be great, which is how

1:09:54

a lot of people clue in that they're dealing

1:09:56

with a North Korean hacker. Yeah,

1:09:58

so. Yeah,

1:12:00

I'm just realizing I So

1:12:03

I get a lot of similar

1:12:05

messages But I just never

1:12:07

respond to them because I'm always like so they

1:12:09

say like oh we're raising money You know we're

1:12:11

looking for investors, and I'm like don't you know

1:12:14

I don't invest so I just don't respond I'm

1:12:16

like like that's not my role But

1:12:18

I'm realizing now yeah some of them might be

1:12:21

fishing things Um so I mean

1:12:23

you're so public are like you probably get

1:12:25

fishing attempts every day I would

1:12:27

bet you know and and there's ways especially if

1:12:29

someone pretends to if someone seems like they're your

1:12:31

friend But they're asking you a question That's you

1:12:34

know one tip I would say is to have

1:12:36

a way that you always do this Right

1:12:39

so like like like if someone like

1:12:41

you select let's say the girl college friend messages

1:12:43

you and or your friend from childhood or whatever

1:12:46

Always have like a thing this in your head

1:12:48

for something you're gonna ask them that someone just

1:12:51

couldn't possibly know or is contemporaneous

1:12:53

so like hey do you remember at What

1:12:56

was that book we talked about during dinner last week? Because

1:12:59

this can't be online it can't be

1:13:01

online no one could have possibly done that recon right and

1:13:04

so if the person says oh You

1:13:07

know they don't have an answer then you have a reason to

1:13:09

believe they might be fake But if they say oh we talked

1:13:11

about you know still magnolias or whatever then not

1:13:13

now you know this is a real person on the

1:13:15

other side Yeah,

1:13:17

I will say one thing which

1:13:20

is um I Get

1:13:23

many many many many many many

1:13:25

many many hacking attempts Near

1:13:28

daily definitely every week Some

1:13:31

of them are extremely sophisticated. I

1:13:33

send them to you know the

1:13:35

original source because they want to

1:13:37

investigate But yeah, let's

1:13:39

just say that You guys

1:13:41

you can try it But it's not gonna work because

1:13:43

I have gotten so many of these and I've never

1:13:45

fallen for a single one So you know give up

1:13:49

Guys you're wasting your time Laura alone

1:13:55

But anyway, I did want

1:13:57

to ask you though because in addition

1:13:59

to the after FBI's warning about North

1:14:01

Korea. They also issued a crime report

1:14:03

that said, quote, while the number of

1:14:06

cryptocurrency related complaints represents only about 10%

1:14:08

of the total number of financial fraud

1:14:10

complaints, the losses associated with these complaints

1:14:12

account for almost 50% of total losses.

1:14:14

So I just wanted to ask you,

1:14:16

you know, you see all kinds of

1:14:18

things and I thought you probably have

1:14:21

like a soapbox worth of tips that

1:14:24

you'd like to give to the crypto

1:14:26

community. So, you know, just here's

1:14:28

your here's your opportunity. If you could save

1:14:30

the crypto community from all these potential hacks,

1:14:32

what are some of the tips you'd like

1:14:34

to see them implement? Oh,

1:14:37

gosh. So first off, do

1:14:39

what I said a minute ago, if you're talking to someone and

1:14:41

there's even a 0.1% chance that it

1:14:43

might not be who you think it is, get on

1:14:45

a video call or ask a question that there's

1:14:47

no chance of them being able to answer this.

1:14:49

This couldn't be online to

1:14:53

try your try your very best to

1:14:56

not do anything without seeing someone in real

1:14:58

life. Even it's getting to a point where

1:15:00

even video calls and stuff can be screwed

1:15:02

with. There was a situation that I had

1:15:04

a long time ago, well, six

1:15:06

months ago, with a port code where we

1:15:08

thought we were talking to Binance got on

1:15:10

a video call with someone from Binance. I

1:15:13

screenshotted the person on there just just for

1:15:15

future reference. I said, who knows maybe just

1:15:17

who knows. A few weeks

1:15:19

later, it seemed like a scam. So I looked them

1:15:21

up, found out who they are went to the Binance head

1:15:24

of head of investigations. I said, Hey, one of your

1:15:26

guys inside is scamming. Here he is. I found him this

1:15:28

is him. He goes, that's not our guy. That was

1:15:30

our guy. This is a deep fake. This has been

1:15:32

used now three or four times. We've heard about this and

1:15:34

someone's just deep faking this fella trying to get people

1:15:36

to give money. So well, if you can

1:15:38

get in real life with someone and give

1:15:40

them a nice hug or something, make sure

1:15:42

they're really a human, not like they're not

1:15:45

sure about walking. That'll actually be a good

1:15:47

thing. Just use common

1:15:50

sense. Don't keep all

1:15:52

of your money in a hot wallet, all the same things

1:15:54

you've heard a million times. Whenever

1:15:57

the FBI talks about the greatest...