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1:21

mind of a serial killer. Israel

1:24

keysed. Left

1:27

investigators stunned by telling them he's

1:29

a serial killer. Textbook

1:32

serial killer. He

1:37

took pleasure in the act of taking a

1:39

life. There

1:41

is nothing probably greater than

1:44

holding the power and control

1:46

of someone's life, and looking him

1:48

in the eye and being able to control all of

1:50

that is intoxicating to

1:53

serial killers. Textbook

1:55

serial killer. Israel

1:58

keysed. Yes,

2:00

my understanding is there's a letter that he had

2:03

written to family and it reads like a goodbye

2:05

letter. And

2:07

then they found this 10 page document. It's

2:11

very unique. It's written in all caps. No

2:13

punctuation, no paragraphs. And

2:16

in it he's giving a first-hand

2:18

account of victims as

2:21

he's killing them. Extremely

2:24

graphic, one of the most disturbing things I've ever read

2:26

my whole career. And

2:29

there's six victims that are

2:31

described. And it looks

2:33

like during the last description he's interrupted.

2:36

So he hasn't finished. But

2:38

that's all we have. Is

2:52

there a case

2:54

out there in the true crime world

2:57

that you believe is connected to

2:59

Israel Keith? That like a

3:01

popular case that maybe people would know? Yeah.

3:05

And I am not certain of

3:07

any. I have a

3:09

list of potential victims and there are

3:12

about a dozen where I think there's

3:15

very, very compelling circumstantial evidence. But I

3:17

always say shy of physical evidence. These

3:20

are all just theories or ideas or

3:22

conversations. The victim that

3:25

I think is the most plausible is

3:27

not a well-known case. It's a man

3:29

named Jimmy Tidwell. But of the well-known

3:31

cases too that come up a lot

3:33

are Susie Lyle and Lawrence Beer.

3:36

Susie Lyle has always been probably

3:38

my top case that

3:40

I feel like is connected to Keith just

3:43

based on the timing of his enrollment in

3:45

the military. Yeah. He was in the

3:47

area at the time. He had searched her case. There's

3:50

a very credible sighting of

3:52

him in a parking lot less than a mile

3:55

from where she disappeared approaching some

3:57

woman late at night. We don't

3:59

know which parking lot. but we know that Susie Lyle disappeared

4:01

from a parking lot in the middle of the night. I

4:05

mean, that's just like the tip of

4:07

the iceberg with circumstantial evidence. There's a ton, but the

4:09

fact that we can place him in the area at

4:12

the time and her name is on his computer

4:14

is very reasonable

4:16

evidence for me. CBH Then

4:18

Lauren Speer was a victim

4:21

at the University of Indiana. Do we

4:23

have any eyewitness sightings of keys in

4:26

that area at that time? CBH Not

4:28

at that time. We do have sightings

4:30

of him in the area several years

4:32

prior, which is interesting and kind of

4:34

does correlate to his known

4:37

pattern, you know, going out and burying

4:39

a cache in Essex, Vermont two years

4:41

before abducting the careers from Essex, Vermont.

4:44

What's interesting to me, and I

4:46

know this is a very polarizing

4:49

case and a polarizing theory, but

4:51

keys flew into Chicago on June

4:53

2nd of 2011 and

4:55

then immediately disappeared. We can't really

4:58

place him anywhere until he arrives

5:01

at his mother's home in Northeast

5:03

Indiana, a town called Harlan outside

5:06

of Fort Wayne, on

5:08

the evening of June 3rd. Depending on when

5:10

he landed, and we don't know for certain,

5:12

we have some ideas, but he was missing

5:14

an action for anywhere from 24 to 36

5:17

hours. In that time, Lauren

5:20

Speer disappears from Bloomington, Indiana. Key

5:22

said that he often would look

5:24

at articles or, you know, try

5:27

to check in on his victims

5:29

and see where the investigations were

5:31

going, but he would never,

5:34

which is not true, but he said he'd

5:36

never googled them by name. What he would

5:38

do is Google a location and a date.

5:40

When his computer was seized, he

5:42

had googled, missing Indiana June 2011.

5:46

When talking about the couriers, he continually says

5:49

he'll talk about what happened after he abducted

5:51

them, but he will not talk about what

5:53

happened prior to their abduction on that trip,

5:55

which would also correlate

5:58

to Lauren Speer. disappearance,

6:00

she disappeared just a week before

6:02

the couriers. That stands out to

6:04

us as well. We

6:06

actually asked the FBI about that specific

6:08

thing because he said that he won't

6:11

talk about anything before the specific date

6:13

of the couriers, which would offer up

6:16

that entire week that he didn't know if he

6:18

was talking about, he didn't want to talk about

6:20

the entire week beforehand or just any crimes in

6:22

the years prior to that. And

6:24

the FBI basically said they don't really know, but it

6:27

could open up the possibility that he actually

6:31

committed crimes out through Indiana, Ohio,

6:33

Pennsylvania, New York, and beyond. Well,

6:35

and we've actually worked with local

6:37

law enforcement and they are very

6:40

collaborative with us, or I guess as much

6:42

as they can be. And they've said they have

6:44

not been able to see

6:46

Keys or anyone who looks like

6:48

him in any of that footage. However,

6:51

there was a, I believe

6:54

a ping on Alaska phone in the area

6:56

at the time. And two

6:58

other cases in the

7:00

true crime world, Brianna Maitland

7:03

and Mara Murray, I know

7:06

the FBI has asked about Keys'

7:08

involvement in there and they've

7:10

ruled out his involvement in

7:12

the Maitland case, but they

7:15

would not rule him out as a

7:17

possibility in Mara Murray's case. Yeah, it's

7:19

interesting. They ruled him out of the

7:21

Maitland case based on a financial

7:24

transaction. And we don't know much more about

7:26

that. It was not in any of the

7:29

case files that we received. I would

7:31

like some clarity around that. Of the

7:33

two, if Keys is involved, I think

7:35

Maitland matches the MO much more.

7:37

He used to drive the road that she

7:39

disappeared from and her car was found on

7:42

all the time. It's a road that connects his

7:44

cabin to his family's cabin. We

7:46

have received some potential evidence that

7:48

could place Keys at his cabin

7:51

in upstate New York the day

7:53

after Mara disappeared. Travel

7:56

records have him flying into Salt

7:58

Lake City, I think a few days and

8:00

departing from Salt Lake City a few days after.

8:02

We don't really know where he is in the

8:04

interim. So this newspaper

8:07

found at his cabin dated the

8:09

day after Maura's disappearance, I think

8:11

is interesting. I have

8:13

always been firmly against Maura being

8:15

a potential Keyes victim,

8:17

but I am now open to it, I

8:19

guess, in terms of at least

8:22

continuing to investigate, only to rule her

8:24

out. But at this point, finding that

8:26

newspaper kind of changed the game for

8:29

me. And I think there is some

8:31

stuff in her case that does align with things

8:34

we know about Keyes, including cars he drove at

8:36

the time or cars he had on his property

8:38

at the time. I would say one argument probably

8:40

against that is that he, I think

8:43

it was during the courier trip is when he said

8:45

that he was starting to feel like he wanted some

8:48

attention and notoriety for what he was doing. And

8:50

he started to take things, started to take on a

8:52

little more risk. And the Maura

8:55

Murray case is just such a

8:57

massive case. I can't imagine that that

9:00

wouldn't have fulfilled that need beforehand.

9:02

What's interesting though is it didn't

9:04

really become a national

9:08

news case till much later. Because I

9:10

looked into this, I did a bunch

9:12

of Google trend analysis and like Maura

9:14

Murray didn't really make it into the

9:16

American lexicon until 2010, 2011. Yeah,

9:19

and it would have been way bigger

9:21

after his suicide. Yeah.

9:25

In fact, she became more of a

9:27

true crime household name after her disappeared

9:29

episode came

9:31

out, which I think was in 2011 or 2012. What

9:35

is the importance of finding

9:37

these additional kits? Well, I

9:39

think it's probably the most important thing

9:41

because we feel it's the, we

9:44

feel in the FBI feels it's the

9:46

best way to locate a victim. They

9:49

believe that he kept souvenirs in

9:51

the kits. So it's opportunity if we find

9:53

one to be able to give

9:55

that to the FBI and then let them go

9:57

through and look for any DNA or or

10:00

any sort of souvenirs that he may have

10:02

left, left behind. How do you guys go

10:04

about searching for these? Just

10:08

close your eyes and walk through the woods. Just

10:13

get this good. It's a, yeah. Sorry, Dakota.

10:16

Is this, is this, uh, where you're supposed to? Yeah,

10:18

there's a lot, a lot to the process. And, uh,

10:20

there's a lot of research that goes into it. Um,

10:23

as Josh joked, we get, we get

10:25

shit on a lot as if we're

10:27

just, uh, kind of hustling through the

10:29

woods, expecting to find something and that's

10:31

really not, um, how we

10:33

operate. But, uh, like Josh

10:35

said, it's we think it's super important

10:37

to find something like this to, um,

10:40

be able to match evidence to an unknown

10:42

victim. And we think that there's a, there's

10:45

plenty of information in the case file and

10:47

in the interrogations that we can kind of

10:49

analyze, you know, his, his

10:51

behavior, his had the way he talks about

10:53

things to be able to figure

10:56

out how he operated. The

10:58

Essex cash is a perfect example of that.

11:00

He told this whole, the whole story from

11:02

basically beginning to end of how he acts,

11:04

how he, when he hid the cash, how

11:06

he accessed it, what he used it for,

11:09

when he reburied, when and where he

11:11

reburied it or re hit it.

11:14

And so we have all this information of

11:16

how he operated with these caches. And

11:18

if we pay attention to his timeline

11:21

and his movements throughout the years, you

11:23

can start to put a picture together of

11:26

where caches might be based on his

11:28

activity. And they also have a few

11:31

caches that Israel led them to let

11:33

the FBI to. So we

11:35

have been able to go to these locations

11:37

and actually view the sites to look for

11:39

landmarks, to be able to compare them to

11:41

other, other sites. Well, one thing I want

11:43

to point out is that speaking with special

11:45

agent, uh, Hala, he, you know, we agree

11:48

with him that he brings it up and

11:50

he's very motivated in, in the fact that

11:52

he believes that the public is going to

11:54

be our best resource in

11:56

finding these caches because, um,

12:00

It's very possible that they've

12:02

already been found or

12:04

will be found and they just need to

12:06

be reported through the proper channels to be

12:08

connected to the case. And

12:11

so we think that there's a

12:13

good possibility there

12:16

that members of the public

12:18

can help us connect these things to the case.

12:20

So if you found something like this, even

12:25

if you've already reported it to local

12:27

law enforcement, make sure to report it

12:29

again to the FBI so

12:31

that if it is one of Key's

12:34

caches, we can connect it and hopefully

12:36

use the evidence to identify

12:38

other victims. And that's already proven to

12:40

be pretty fruitful. We've

12:43

had a few tips that now

12:45

after the guys have talked to the FBI, we

12:48

find even more credible and I

12:51

don't know if you guys want to talk about that

12:53

further. Obviously whenever we started to team up with Josh

12:55

and his team, we were lucky

12:57

enough to start sharing information before

12:59

we even formed a partnership. And

13:02

one of Josh's team members, Kim Kay, she

13:04

brought Josh a tip that he gave to

13:07

us and then we gave to the FBI

13:09

and it ended up turning to the biggest piece

13:12

of evidence that has been released

13:14

since his real keys killed himself. So

13:17

when we will be releasing that in our next

13:19

episode, we're doing a joint episode. We'll

13:21

be releasing that episode right after

13:23

the show. So definitely come and listen. I

13:26

was just going to say, well, A, that's

13:28

the cool thing about this is

13:30

you have three different

13:32

groups who are probably

13:35

the three most informed

13:37

groups on Key's

13:39

all working independently well

13:41

up until a certain point who

13:43

see things from different perspectives and

13:46

glom onto different details and are

13:48

doing wildly different

13:50

investigations. And then those

13:52

three groups all came together and we found

13:54

the biggest piece of evidence in the Key's

13:56

case since his death. And I think that

13:59

really speaks to... the power of

14:01

collaboration, just how great it is that

14:03

the guys made this connection, you know,

14:05

deep connection with Hala. And

14:07

then my team independently was doing work.

14:09

And once the three of us all

14:11

shared, you know, the separate pieces of

14:14

information we had, we were able to confirm

14:16

and corroborate and

14:19

find something monumental. It's really

14:21

cool. And then second, you

14:23

know, I had gotten a tip a few years ago

14:25

about a woman who believed she

14:27

encountered keys with a cash. And

14:30

the guys took that to Hala. And that is,

14:33

you know, it's not quite

14:35

as fruitful yet, but we are

14:37

able to kind of move

14:39

along and at least

14:41

investigate that with a little more credibility.

14:43

Yeah, and it just really shows like

14:45

how, you know, in

14:48

a real time investigation that the

14:50

teamwork and the collaboration can totally

14:52

change the trajectory, you know, of

14:54

in the progress of this case of any

14:56

case, but you know, this is our case

14:58

that we're working on. And so it just

15:00

shows that, you know, there's

15:03

there's so much information out there to be

15:05

uncovered. And we're all looking

15:07

at it from a different perspective, and

15:09

with different talents. And if

15:11

you bring all that stuff together, I mean,

15:13

we can, I really feel like we can

15:15

make some big progress. So the list of

15:17

potential victims is unfortunately,

15:20

rather long, but there were some

15:22

that I were a little more

15:24

interested in, than some of

15:26

the others, in particular, Washington State.

15:29

And Joshua and Dakota, that's

15:31

kind of your neck of the woods. And it

15:33

sounds like their suspicion that there could

15:35

be as many as

15:37

five potential Israel

15:39

keys victims in Washington State. So the FBI

15:41

believes they're actually four, not five. So they

15:44

do have they think that he killed somebody

15:46

else while he was still living in Washington.

15:48

And that was his first victim, they believe

15:50

it was between July 2001 and October 31 2001. But the murder

15:52

didn't take place inside the

15:57

state of Washington, but they don't know what state

15:59

it was. They just know that it

16:01

wasn't in Washington. The four victims that

16:04

they think most likely happened around the 2005 to 2006 area.

16:10

Two of the victims have been described as a couple,

16:12

which I talked about earlier. It's

16:14

unknown at this point how they were connected. They did

16:17

ask him if they were in a

16:20

married couple, boyfriend, girlfriend, a partnership

16:23

of any sort. And he didn't

16:25

elaborate on that, but we know it was a male and

16:27

a female and that they went

16:29

into a hole and that

16:31

the male was killed with a shovel. And as

16:33

I said before, it was another premature, quote

16:37

unquote premature death. He was

16:39

trying to keep the victim quiet. The

16:41

female, he said, was stabbed and strangled.

16:44

They believe that those two victims were killed

16:47

in Eastern Washington. And they

16:49

have kind of a timeframe that they

16:51

believe that's happened, but I'd need to

16:53

confer with Josh about a few things

16:55

before we get into the

16:57

details of that. And

16:59

then the two other victims, he

17:01

was able to purchase a boat

17:03

from his wife's ex-husband. He'd talked about

17:05

disposing of two victims from this boat.

17:08

They think that the victims were placed

17:11

in two separate locations, two separate lakes.

17:14

One they believe was Lake Crescent. And Josh

17:16

was actually given access to go and search

17:18

that lake. So I'll give him some

17:20

time to speak about that because it's

17:22

really exciting. But he submerged that victim

17:25

with gallons of concrete that

17:27

he had filled and submerged

17:29

them in the lake. And they believe

17:31

that the other victim is potentially in

17:34

Lake Housette. But

17:36

that is all just speculation for right now.

17:38

That's just a place that he visited very

17:40

often. And he was really interested in very

17:42

deep lakes. One thing that's

17:44

important about the Washington victims is during

17:47

one of the interrogations, they're trying to decide

17:49

on how the Washington victims could be a

17:51

federal case. And at

17:54

this point, Israel had already known

17:56

that transporting a victim across state

17:58

lines would be instantly a federal

18:00

crime. So during the

18:02

conversation, he's trying to figure this out. And

18:04

so we asked Special Agent Hull about that.

18:07

It sounds like all four

18:09

victims were actually taken in Washington, not

18:11

from out of state. And

18:13

they don't know for sure where

18:15

they resided, only that they

18:18

were taken while they were in Washington state,

18:20

which makes the way that he hunted early

18:22

on and tried to get victims early on

18:24

his career was by going to trailheads in

18:26

parks. It makes a lot

18:28

of sense that you would run into more tourists in

18:31

that area too. So it probably confuse things even more

18:33

if they go missing by by National

18:35

Park or something like that. So yeah,

18:37

they think all four victims were taken in the

18:39

in Washington not brought from out of state. What

18:42

about possibly connecting him to these

18:45

murders in Boca Raton, Florida?

18:48

That was a case that we covered on

18:50

true crime garage a long time ago, where

18:52

somebody was abducting people from the parking lot

18:54

of a popular shopping mall

18:56

down there. And it's

18:58

believed that there were three,

19:00

I think there were three attacks and

19:03

abductions in total,

19:05

but in two of the situations

19:08

resulted in murder. And one of

19:10

those cases was a double homicide.

19:12

Is there, is there

19:14

anything connecting him to those

19:17

murders down in Florida or or is

19:19

his keys, I imagine in a lot

19:21

of these situations, it's like an Ed

19:24

Edwards situation where somebody

19:26

is saying like, oh, there's, you

19:28

have these 10 unsolved homicides that took place

19:31

scattered throughout the United States. Well, it must be

19:33

Israel keys. I looked into

19:35

this pretty extensively only because I had just

19:37

seen it coming up over and over and

19:39

over again. And I was pretty skeptical about

19:42

it from the jump. It's just nothing

19:45

about it matched Kiese's known

19:47

MO. These are often exceptions to

19:49

the rule. He doesn't live

19:51

by these. He often will engage

19:53

in crimes of opportunity or

19:56

in crimes of immediacy. But I

19:58

just don't know. see him

20:00

committing non-sexually

20:02

motivated crimes

20:05

in big city

20:07

centers in broad daylight

20:09

surrounded by lots of people. Just none

20:11

of that matches anything

20:13

we know about Keys or the way

20:15

he intended to operate. That said, there

20:17

are some sketches that look a

20:19

lot like him. But

20:23

for two of them, we can't place Keys

20:25

anywhere at the time that they occurred. But

20:27

for one of them, and I always say

20:29

with Keys, anything is possible. But

20:32

in this case, it would be

20:34

virtually impossible for him to have

20:36

been in Florida when the

20:38

attack occurred. Like I said,

20:40

he's tricky, but

20:43

it would be very, very challenging for him to

20:47

be in that parking lot when the

20:49

attack occurred, just based on where we

20:52

can place him surrounding the attack. So,

20:54

Israel Keys, he

20:56

baffles me because we don't have a

20:58

type of victim, it seems like

21:00

to me. And then there's this

21:03

other speculation that maybe

21:05

he killed children. So,

21:07

that makes things a lot more

21:09

difficult. Yeah. The kids thing is

21:12

interesting. And again, as we

21:14

talked about, he's not really a liar per

21:16

se, or when he is lying, he's very

21:18

bad at it. He said that

21:20

after his child was born, he

21:23

didn't go after kids anymore. And I

21:25

believe that as much as you can

21:27

believe anything out of a serial killer's

21:29

mouth. He did say in

21:31

one of his last interviews that he knew

21:33

he was losing control later on in his

21:35

criminal career, because he doesn't

21:37

usually go after kids. Maybe that means he

21:40

put a child at risk or entered a

21:42

home with a kid, or maybe that means

21:44

he actually planned on or did

21:46

kill a kid later on in his criminal

21:48

career. But I would

21:50

say, again, those are exceptions. I

21:52

do believe that he probably

21:55

did not kill kids for the majority

21:57

of his criminal career. His evolution, we're

21:59

talking about 14 years here. And

22:02

so, you know, his definition of

22:04

what a kid is could

22:07

have changed throughout that time. You know, he he, you

22:10

know, when he starts this, he's a young man. So.

22:14

Maybe his definition of a child

22:17

at that point was different than

22:20

it was 14 years later.

22:22

I hate to harp on this, but I

22:24

think it's one of the most fascinating, fascinating

22:26

parts about the case is the the

22:29

skull drawings in the pentagram. Can

22:32

we just go around the room? Just

22:36

just to get a clear sense of because

22:38

you guys, I'm guessing

22:41

have different differing opinions

22:44

on what this means or if it means

22:46

anything and speak

22:49

on the skulls, the pentagram and

22:53

the one skull that says we are one.

22:56

I'll start since I'll probably be the

22:58

quickest. I think it means something and

23:01

it means nothing. I think the

23:03

number is just bullshit.

23:06

I think he's feeding into the

23:08

FBI's narrative of 11 victims. I

23:11

think the there is meaning

23:13

to. You

23:16

know, the idea behind it,

23:18

the blood and the skulls and the

23:20

we are one. And

23:22

and I'm sure the guys will elaborate

23:25

on that. But I

23:27

think the number of skulls that he

23:30

painted is fairly meaningless. I

23:33

tend to agree with Josh about the number. I

23:35

think that, you know, he's

23:37

he's letting the FBI

23:39

believe what they want to believe as far as

23:42

the number of victims, as far as like the

23:44

the visuals that this produces.

23:47

He's he I really think that he's

23:49

trying to instill

23:51

some like deeper meaning to his actions. He

23:54

knew he was a you know, a murderous

23:56

piece of shit and that he was trying

23:58

to like. make himself

24:00

seem more mystical

24:03

or mysterious than he really

24:05

was. I

24:07

tend to think that it was a last

24:10

ditch effort to be important. I

24:15

don't have much to add to that, but I

24:18

will say that when we release a new

24:20

piece of evidence on October 20th, we

24:23

are really excited to bring that component

24:25

into the conversation with the FBI profilers

24:28

because there could be something combined

24:30

with all of these pieces put together that

24:33

could lead to something important. But

24:35

at this point, yeah, I

24:37

wonder if this is the same

24:40

time that he was writing those suicide notes. We're

24:42

going to ask especially Nahal about that to see

24:44

if it was the same day. So

24:47

I'm wondering if he was actually writing those suicide

24:49

notes, and this was just before he was about

24:51

to commit suicide initially, and then he

24:53

was interrupted, or if it was just two

24:55

separate events. But other than

24:57

that, it's just him trying to show

24:59

ownership of these four unfortunate

25:02

victims. Yeah, I completely agree with you, Josh,

25:04

that I think that now

25:07

that we have the information

25:10

on the suicide, and we have the information about

25:12

the skull drawings that were at a different time,

25:14

that we're able to put the

25:16

suicide note, the goodbye letter, the

25:19

skull drawings, and the cell drawings,

25:23

or writings, all together and

25:25

analyze it as a whole,

25:27

which will hopefully bring

25:29

new information to light. The picture

25:32

of Beaufiment that was included with the

25:34

skull drawings, which is the

25:36

horned goat with the pentagram, is

25:38

satanic imagery. And

25:41

I think that he

25:44

talked about this in

25:46

the interrogations of his motivations

25:48

or him trying to

25:51

come to terms with the

25:54

sexual status that he was. And

25:56

I have a quote here somewhere. Here

25:59

we go. And so in the

26:01

710 interview, he says

26:04

back then, and he's talking about

26:06

when he was late teens, early twenties, he

26:09

says back then I thought I was a Satanist. I

26:11

had a different philosophy than I do now. My

26:14

philosophy changed on what I wanted, or my

26:16

philosophy changed on why I wanted to do

26:19

it. At the time I thought I was

26:21

into the whole Satanist symbolism stuff. Then

26:24

over the next few years, I realized I didn't

26:26

believe in any of that stuff. It

26:28

was just a justification, and

26:30

I realized I wanted to do it because I wanted

26:32

to do it. And so

26:34

he says himself that before

26:38

his incarceration, that he had already come to

26:40

terms with the fact that he didn't believe

26:43

any of that shit. That

26:45

he wasn't a Satanist, he just wanted to

26:47

murder because he wanted to murder. And

26:50

so I find it very interesting, the fact that

26:52

he's kind of going back to that ideology

26:55

and this symbolism with

26:58

Satanism, when he says himself that he

27:00

doesn't believe any of that stuff. What's

27:02

also interesting with that is he

27:05

branded himself on his body. So

27:09

he had several brands like an Upside Down Cross,

27:12

I believe a smiley face, an anarchy

27:14

symbol, and I believe there are a couple other,

27:16

I can't recall at the moment. There was a

27:18

pentagram. Pentagram, thank you, sorry. And

27:21

one thing that's interesting about the

27:23

drawing in the cell is the pentagram

27:26

is actually reversed. And with

27:28

the two points projecting upwards, it's normally

27:30

a pentagram is actually a symbol of

27:32

unity, which would make sense if he's trying

27:34

to say that they are all one. But

27:36

this reverse pentagram with the two points

27:38

projecting upwards is a symbol of evil

27:40

and it attracts sinister

27:43

forces basically. So it's

27:46

a completely different meaning. And

27:49

one thing about the brands,

27:52

just to throw this in there, they

27:55

had asked his ex-girlfriend about

27:57

his branding and... She

28:01

was in

28:03

a medical field, so she knew about

28:06

wounds and things like that. And

28:08

there's a specific note where they had asked her about

28:11

how the brands were done, and she wasn't really sure,

28:13

but she assumed just heating up metal and then applying

28:15

to the skin like a coat hanger or something like

28:18

that. When they go into detail,

28:20

they start asking her questions. There's one

28:22

in particular that they were asking about that must

28:25

have been done very poorly or left

28:27

a very bad

28:29

scar. So there's

28:31

a question as to whether they were trying to

28:33

ask her if they think that

28:36

he would brand himself either

28:38

after a victim or while with a victim, because

28:40

he talks a lot about going out and having

28:43

a smoke with these victims. He

28:45

talked about having a cigar or a

28:47

cigarette with the Rain Curry area, same

28:49

thing with Samantha Koenig. And

28:52

they were sort of insinuating that the, I believe

28:54

the Happy Face brand was actually

28:56

done with a cigarette or a cigar.

29:00

And this is all again later on in

29:02

life after he claims to have no longer

29:04

believed in Satanism. They still attaching

29:07

these different images to himself.

29:11

You just riled up all the Happy

29:14

Face, true serial killer

29:16

pictures. Oh

29:20

shit. Yeah, sorry. Yeah,

29:23

thanks. I've wondered that too

29:25

because part

29:27

of his kill kit was a camp

29:29

stove, which there are about a million

29:31

very nefarious things we can think about

29:33

him using that camp stove for. But

29:36

I've always wondered if perhaps it was

29:39

as part of a branding thing and not a torture thing.

29:42

Like you said, he identified himself at

29:44

some point as a Satanist. Do we

29:46

have evidence or anybody

29:48

talking about whether he

29:50

studied being a Satanist

29:53

or studying anything

29:55

of the cult? Yeah,

29:58

he talked about it. I

30:00

guess it would depend on your definition of study, but

30:03

he read a lot

30:05

about occult Satanism,

30:08

serial killers. I

30:10

believe he even had a

30:12

Satanist pack in

30:14

the bag that he took on

30:16

this first, his definition of

30:18

rape is very strange, but this first sexual assault

30:21

that he committed in either 97

30:23

or 98, he said that he wanted

30:26

to bring Satanism into it. So yeah,

30:28

he doesn't go into detail about what books he

30:30

read or how long he was studying it, but

30:32

it was clearly something he had read up on.

30:34

And I think it has everything to do with

30:37

his, I mean, at least that aspect, the Satanism

30:39

aspect, especially earlier in life has everything to do

30:41

with his upbringing. His family

30:43

was very involved in religious

30:46

cults and things like that. And

30:49

his mother was extremely religious in

30:51

different variations throughout

30:53

his childhood. And he

30:55

said himself that he thought

30:58

that the Satanism aspect was him kind

31:01

of lashing out and being really angry

31:03

at his religious upbringing. Yeah, you can

31:05

see throughout his life, a lot of

31:07

what he did was in rebellion

31:10

to his upbringing. He was raised

31:12

in a essentially

31:15

neo-Nazi church

31:18

that did not value minorities, specifically gay

31:20

people and black people. And he married

31:22

a black woman and was a bisexual

31:24

man. I don't think he was

31:26

bisexual out of rebellion, but I

31:29

do think a lot of what he did in

31:31

life was in direct conflict of how he

31:33

was raised. He joined the army, which was very

31:36

against his family and his religious

31:38

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33:31

This episode is supported by FX's

33:33

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33:38

crimes unsettle a small community

33:40

and the local detective feels

33:42

these atrocities are eerily personal,

33:44

as if someone or something

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FX's Grotesquerie premieres September

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25th on FX. Stream

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on Hulu. comment

40:01

app and under

40:05

what he thought was anonymity, he had said

40:07

to someone, like, what if I

40:10

was a serial killer with a young

40:12

child who had killed 50 people? Would you say that

40:14

to me then? So it

40:19

just goes back to this, like he

40:21

wanted to talk about it and he

40:23

wanted to get reactions, but he didn't

40:25

want the attention. It's a very strange

40:27

dichotomy. Well, it seems like

40:30

we talked about this in our first episode, the

40:32

duality of his personalities. I'm not saying

40:34

he's a split personality or anything like

40:36

that, but he definitely had two different

40:38

lives he was leading and

40:41

they were completely in conflict with

40:43

one another. One thing that is

40:45

strange is this disappearance of

40:48

Jimmy Lamar Tidwell, Jr. Is there

40:50

anyone that can talk about

40:52

the details of that and why

40:55

keys might be linked to this

40:57

disappearance? Yeah, this is, you know,

40:59

I've looked at probably 70 missing

41:03

persons cases as being plausible,

41:05

possible keys cases and Jimmy

41:08

Tidwell is far and away to me

41:10

the most compelling. He disappeared, we're

41:13

not really sure when he worked the

41:16

swing shift at a,

41:18

I want to say pipe

41:20

fitting company in East

41:23

Texas. And we know

41:25

he got off at around, I

41:27

think 3 a.m. on February 15th of 2012. We

41:29

don't know

41:34

whether he made it home or

41:37

not. He just disappeared at some

41:39

point following his shift from work

41:41

was never seen again. He, for

41:43

his job, wore construction helmet, construction

41:45

goggles, construction gloves. He at the

41:47

time had long

41:49

thinning grayish brown hair.

41:52

And his car was eventually

41:55

found, I want to say six miles

41:57

from his house on an old farm

42:00

road. his helmet was not in there.

42:02

His helmet disappeared with him. At the

42:04

time he disappeared, Keys was

42:07

in Texas. His phone was turned

42:09

off, and he told

42:11

his family that he had gotten stuck in

42:13

the mud at a mall parking lot for

42:16

two days. He did later say

42:18

that he got stuck in the mud on that trip.

42:20

He didn't confirm that it was on that two-day window

42:22

or where it happened, what

42:25

we do know is when Jimmy

42:27

Tidwell went missing about 200 miles

42:29

away, Keys was also

42:31

missing with his phone off. Jimmy disappeared

42:34

from an area that Keys' family was

42:36

about to move to. Keys actually

42:39

bought two days after

42:41

Jimmy's disappearance from the

42:43

Walmart closest to Jimmy's house, which at

42:45

that point he had no geographic ties

42:47

to. Lubricant, a folding

42:49

shovel, and air freshener. We know

42:51

Keys was a necrophile. That's

42:53

compelling, but also I've talked

42:56

to Bobby Chaconne, who briefly worked

42:58

the case. And just also through

43:00

my research, there is a trend

43:03

that Keys would often look to

43:05

or actually commit burglaries and arsons

43:08

following his murders. He even talked

43:10

about prolonging the high.

43:14

The day after Jimmy Tidwell

43:16

disappeared, Keys set

43:18

a house on fire in Alito, Texas,

43:20

and then drove to Azel, Texas, where

43:22

he robbed a bank. I

43:25

can jump in really quick just to add to that. The

43:28

receipt that they found that said there was a

43:30

shovel, lube, and an

43:33

air freshener, it doesn't really

43:35

state what kind of lube it is. And

43:37

it could have been something, and I say

43:39

that because it could be for the obviously

43:41

nefarious reason, but it could also be as

43:44

a way to kind of bury another

43:46

cash and prep weapons before he buries them.

43:49

So either way, it doesn't look good, but

43:52

it's just a different way to look

43:54

at that, I guess. When they

43:56

eventually confirmed it was Keys who robbed

43:58

the spank and Azel, pulled up the surveillance

44:01

and Keyes is wearing

44:04

a construction helmet and he has long stringy

44:06

hair in it and they asked him where

44:08

he got the hair from and he

44:11

said that it was human hair. Very,

44:13

very compelling circumstantial evidence. The

44:15

only other plausible suspect in

44:17

Jimmy's disappearance is his wife

44:19

and we have the local

44:21

case files, local law enforcement

44:23

case files and they

44:25

don't say why but they say that they have ruled her

44:28

out. She however, it was

44:30

not a great witness. She changed her story a couple

44:32

times. So I want to put that out there but

44:35

I just did the evidence for Keyes

44:37

is pretty overwhelming. There's some other factors.

44:39

We know that Keyes often trolled Craigslist

44:41

and right before Jimmy disappeared, he had

44:44

posted on Craigslist that he was selling

44:46

his washer and dryer. Jimmy

44:48

lived in a very rural area

44:50

in a house that was

44:52

under construction. So again

44:55

goes with the geography and anthropology of Keyes'

44:57

MO of going to far away places where

44:59

there aren't going to be witnesses and places

45:01

that he can blend in. Well, this is

45:04

what's fascinating because you said you

45:06

believe there's some evidence

45:09

of digital contact

45:14

with these victims? It's

45:18

something we're pursuing because we've

45:20

seen patterns. There

45:22

has not been any definitive proof

45:25

yet but we have seen

45:27

some of the same stuff come over and over

45:29

and over again. We also know for a fact

45:31

and have copies of it

45:33

where Keyes was going online and commenting

45:36

on articles about his victims. Was

45:38

he using false identification at

45:40

any time? Because it like he's

45:43

trying to muddy the waters and really cover

45:45

his tracks and really not let

45:48

people know where he is at certain

45:50

times. But to fly into

45:52

Chicago, I mean, you

45:54

purchase, there's a paper trail, right? You

45:56

purchase that plane ticket and you

45:59

can drive as far as you want. want, but he rented

46:01

a car and then he checks into

46:03

a hotel. It seems like, I

46:06

don't know, it seems very like

46:08

I'm going to these great lengths and

46:11

all this effort to distance

46:13

my physical self from

46:15

where I actually am. But

46:18

meanwhile, it seems like very novice of

46:20

him of like a rookie

46:22

mistake that yes, there's

46:24

a paper trail. I think that was

46:26

actually part of it. He's setting up

46:29

his own alibis by having these points

46:32

on a map, but then he's distancing himself from

46:34

those points. And even with William and

46:36

the Rain Courier, his alibi

46:38

was that he was going to be fishing that area.

46:40

He bought a fishing license for that three days slot

46:43

that he would be in town. So

46:45

while he was there, if he ever did question about it,

46:47

he would be able to say, no, I was just there

46:49

fishing. I was just passing through. I always pass through this

46:51

area. And he went to the same hotel that he had

46:53

been to multiple times. So I think it was just a

46:55

way for him to, he absolutely

46:58

could have used different ideas,

47:00

but I think he tried to set it

47:02

up in such a short amount of time

47:04

that it seemed impossible for him to even

47:06

be considered a suspect. Yeah, I agree. We've

47:08

had a few people come forward and say

47:10

they know for a fact that he used

47:12

or had fake IDs, but we haven't been

47:14

able to credibly vet

47:16

those comments. But

47:19

to Josh's point, I think he

47:21

was more interested in muddying where and when

47:24

he was. So another example

47:26

is he bought two fishing licenses

47:28

in two states for the same

47:31

two-day period. Or there's

47:33

at least one instance where he booked

47:38

two different hotel rooms in two different cities for

47:40

the same night. So I think stuff like that

47:42

where he could plausibly say, oh, I

47:44

was going to go there, but I changed my mind. Or,

47:47

yeah, I was just there for a few days

47:49

to fish in, then I left. And that goes

47:51

back to him planning his crimes in conjunction with

47:54

events, whether it be cruises or visiting family or

47:56

family birthday parties or whatever. Correct

47:59

me if I'm wrong. here you

48:01

guys. Wasn't

48:04

he booked in the hotel

48:06

room in Texas right

48:08

before his arrest? Wasn't he booked

48:10

in that hotel room under an alias? Like

48:13

Isaiah or something like that? Yeah.

48:15

Yeah. But there is, in Vermont,

48:18

he used his identification to book

48:20

that room, but when they took

48:22

his license plate for parking, he

48:25

changed one digit on the license

48:28

plate and changed the issuing state.

48:30

So instead of being New

48:32

Hampshire, I think he said it was Arizona, and

48:34

instead of being like one, two, three, he said

48:36

it was one, three, two. And that

48:39

could have also just been human

48:41

error. It's very easy to say

48:43

everything is intentional. But yeah, he

48:46

did small things to muddy his

48:49

digital or geographic footprints. And

48:51

they keep a database of

48:53

fishing licenses and hunting licenses as well.

48:56

So I don't know. Again, I find

48:58

it strange that he's going

49:00

to all these efforts to... I mean, the paper

49:02

trail would have been the same if he would

49:04

have just flown to Vermont. It

49:07

seems like he's creating all this extra work,

49:09

but like the captain said, who knows what

49:11

he did between Chicago and

49:15

Vermont. Exactly. Well,

49:17

and I know some of this information is sensitive

49:20

and you guys have worked with the FBI

49:22

and you still have a lot of work

49:24

that's still going on and going forward that

49:26

you're going to continue with, but you

49:29

guys know me, sensitive or

49:32

not, I'm going to needle you

49:34

for information. You knew

49:37

walking into this that that was going to happen.

49:39

So without being too

49:41

descriptive here, I'm

49:44

going to demand an answer. But within

49:46

that case file and the information that

49:48

you guys have reviewed,

49:50

you talked earlier about the

49:52

process of going to locations

49:54

and attempting to recover these

49:57

items. What What

50:00

are the states

50:04

of significance to those future

50:06

searches, states that you're more

50:08

concerned with? Because we have 50 states

50:11

in the United States. Which ones are

50:13

you prioritizing based off of that information

50:16

as opposed to ones that just don't seem so

50:18

interesting to you? I think we probably each have a

50:20

different answer for this, I would

50:22

bet. But I'd

50:24

say definitely right now our main focus is

50:28

Washington, the Olympic Peninsula, and

50:30

the surrounding areas. That's where our

50:32

entire first season is taking place. In

50:35

New York, we know, I was speaking

50:37

with the FBI, that they found a cache

50:40

recently in New York. And it was,

50:43

they turned out to not be connected to

50:45

Keys. But they still expect

50:47

there to be caches

50:49

in New York. And obviously,

50:52

there's Vermont, Maine, Texas is a

50:54

very high priority for us. He

50:58

stated a place in

51:00

one in Wyoming. That's huge. And

51:03

the FBI also told us that

51:05

there's a good chance that they believe that

51:07

either there's a cache or a victim in

51:10

Oregon. But like I

51:12

said, I think all of us probably have our own opinions, just

51:14

by the way that we look at the case. The

51:17

crazy thing is, is we have leads all around

51:19

the country. And we kind

51:22

of have to prioritize them, mostly

51:26

because of time

51:29

and resource limitations. But

51:31

so we have to kind of see which ones

51:33

are the most valid and kind of go after

51:35

those first. And like Josh said, the

51:38

Olympic Peninsula in Washington, since he spent

51:40

so much time there and was so

51:42

active in Washington, we think, at least

51:44

personally, I think that there's more crimes

51:47

to uncover in Washington. And

51:49

the evidence and these

51:51

caches that could still be

51:53

there are of the

51:55

most interest to us. And

51:58

so, you know, like places that he

52:00

went and frequented, the only things we

52:03

know are what he told the FBI,

52:06

but we know that he also spent

52:08

time with people in these locations, spots

52:11

like Lake Crescent, Beaver Lake, Lake Ozzette,

52:15

Port Angeles, Squim, these

52:17

are all really high value places for

52:19

us as far as information. And

52:22

so there's,

52:24

I mean, but the leads are

52:27

kind of taking us all around the

52:30

country. For me, I have like hotspots

52:32

of likely activity. And

52:34

so Pennsylvania, West Virginia is

52:36

one, upstate New York to Maine

52:38

is another, Texas, Louisiana,

52:40

Alabama, Tennessee is one,

52:43

the four corner states, then

52:45

Washington, Southern California, Northern

52:47

California, and Wyoming are kind of

52:49

my priorities right now. I don't

52:51

think any of us mentioned Alaska,

52:54

did we? Okay. Oh,

52:57

well that's obvious. That's one

52:59

spot that's really hot on our list to

53:01

go see, because we haven't been to the

53:03

spot where they discovered a cache there. And

53:05

that's something I really am excited to get

53:07

to. What's your guys' call to action on

53:09

your guys' podcast regarding this case? What is

53:11

the FBI working on now? What do they

53:13

want the public to know? Because they've made

53:16

a reach

53:18

out to the public on at least

53:20

two or three occasions, right? Looking for

53:23

more information about Israel keys. The FBI

53:25

is absolutely still involved. They're

53:27

participating in a bunch of media events to try

53:29

to get the word out about the caches, because

53:31

they think that is the best opportunity

53:33

to find a victim. And they

53:36

think that caches have been found and just not

53:38

reported. So I think just getting

53:40

awareness out that if you found something

53:42

like this, or if you stumble across something like

53:44

this, make sure you do not touch it, you

53:47

do not open it, you just report it to the police, and

53:49

then let them take over from there. But

53:52

in the coming months, there'll be a

53:54

few docu-series released. There's been a

53:56

few more podcasts started up about Israel keys, and

53:59

the FBI has been... taking part in

54:01

those podcasts, like ours are going to be working

54:03

with Josh as well to try

54:05

to spread the word because the

54:08

chance of them finding a victim

54:10

just by stumbling across it is

54:13

going to be so difficult. So

54:15

they think this is the best avenue to find victims.

54:18

Has Israel Key's family

54:21

members or friends,

54:23

have any of them been

54:25

cooperative with either one of your

54:27

guys' investigations? Yes, I

54:30

won't name who because they want anonymity,

54:32

but I've talked to three members of

54:34

his family and one ongoing.

54:36

And they all, as

54:38

far as I can tell, want answers.

54:41

They don't want families to

54:43

be wondering what happened to their loved ones.

54:46

I think they take on as much as they

54:48

emotionally can because it's easy to forget that

54:51

his crimes impact his family as much as they

54:54

impact the families of the people he's harmed. But

54:57

yeah, everyone I've talked

54:59

to and everyone I've heard about or

55:01

heard from, they want to

55:03

see the FBI continue looking into this. They

55:05

want to see closure. They want to see

55:08

cases get solved. And

55:10

so, yeah, it's been really lovely because I think

55:13

that's the fear going into this is, am

55:15

I going to hurt these invisible victims? And

55:18

thank God that hasn't been the case. And

55:20

you guys probably have all different opinions, but

55:23

what do you think is the most fascinating

55:26

thing about the investigation or about

55:28

Key's himself? Why

55:32

not just you, but like you said, all these

55:34

other shows popping up. What do you

55:36

think that allure is or what is

55:38

the allure for you? For

55:41

me, which I tend to think

55:43

is probably a general

55:45

allure, is everything about

55:47

this case is

55:49

the opposite of what we're accustomed to. Like

55:52

we know the killer, but not the victims, that

55:56

there is a modern day

55:58

serial killer operating. in all 50 states

56:00

where men, women, and children could be targets and

56:03

no one even knew he existed till after he

56:05

was apprehended and dead. I think

56:07

it brings together a lot of components

56:10

of true crime into a single case

56:12

and then the narrative is the

56:14

exact opposite of how we're used to

56:16

learning about cases. He

56:19

committed arsons and burglaries.

56:22

He murdered people. He

56:24

planned his crimes well in advance. He was a

56:26

family man who was adored by his community. I

56:28

just think in many

56:30

ways, Keyes not

56:32

only breaks serial killer archetype, but he

56:34

is the ultimate boogeyman because any one

56:36

of us could have been his victim.

56:40

For me, it's that the case is so expansive

56:43

and we have so much

56:45

information about his crimes, yet

56:48

we kind of have nothing. And

56:51

so there's all these unanswered

56:54

questions, yet we have

56:57

thousands of pages of

56:59

information and hours

57:02

upon hours of interrogations, yet we still

57:04

can't answer a lot of the questions.

57:06

I think for me, he

57:09

is just the scariest person alive

57:11

or now dead, but the scariest

57:13

serial killer ever because my

57:16

wife and I do a lot of backpacking and it's always

57:18

been the biggest fear of

57:20

somebody just attacking our tent in the middle of the

57:22

woods and to find that there's somebody

57:24

out there that was trying to do something very

57:26

similar, it's just absolutely terrifying to

57:28

me. But what really sucks me in is

57:31

that because there is so much

57:33

information, kind of like I alluded to before,

57:35

I just feel like if there

57:37

is a pattern that I think can

57:39

be solved and with that, it

57:41

could just be the next piece of big

57:43

information that blows this whole thing wide open.

57:45

And I think once you find one

57:48

more victim, once you find one more cash,

57:50

one more bank robbery, it just puts another

57:52

point in the map that can be connected

57:54

to other points and you can

57:56

start to really dive in even further. It's basically just

57:58

one giant puzzle that we have access

58:00

to the information too and I think that's a

58:02

really intriguing part of it. It

58:04

really sucks you in once you start getting involved

58:07

in it. And I think we all just kind

58:09

of crossed the Rubicon on that. I think a

58:11

lot of the cards are about to start following.

58:13

Get ready. I

58:24

want to thank you all for joining us

58:26

here in the garage for this special conversation

58:28

about Serial Killer Israel Keys.

58:31

This is part one and part

58:33

two. Make sure you

58:35

check out True Crime Bullshit wherever

58:37

you listen to podcasts for

58:39

part three and for part

58:41

four make sure you

58:44

check out Somewhere in the Pines

58:46

wherever you listen to podcasts. And

58:48

if that's too much to remember

58:50

check out truecrimegarage.com and part three

58:53

and part four will be on

58:55

our website. Thank you so much

58:57

for the support. Thanks for telling

58:59

people about the garage. Until next

59:02

week, be good, be kind, and

59:04

don't litter. There

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