4:00

a lot of the evidence in

4:02

this case, suggesting that there are in

4:04

fact additional victims. Tying keys

4:06

to other murders will close

4:08

out some other cases. How many? Well,

4:12

that remains to be determined at

4:14

this moment. Let's go around

4:16

the room and introduce ourselves to

4:18

the beautiful listeners. Josh

4:20

Hallmark, why don't you tell everybody

4:22

about your podcast? Hey everyone, this

4:24

is Josh Hallmark. I started

4:27

investigating Israel Keys in 2014 and

4:30

launched True Crime Bullshit in 2018. It

4:34

was intended to just be a one season

4:37

exploration of Israel Keys. And now

4:39

six years later, it's

4:41

just a deep dive investigation into

4:43

all things Keys with a specific

4:45

focus on trying to identify his

4:48

unknown victims. And how about the

4:50

Somewhere in the Pines guys? How's it going

4:52

everyone? My name's Dakota. I

4:55

work with Joshua Ash on

4:58

the show Somewhere in the Pines. And

5:00

our focus is to locate the hidden

5:02

caches of Israel Keys to hopefully help

5:04

identify his unknown victims. And hey everyone,

5:07

this is Joshua Ash. We've been researching

5:09

for the past three years and physically

5:11

searching for about the last year and

5:13

a half all throughout

5:15

the Olympic Peninsula. I'm trying to

5:17

locate any sort of signs or landmarks

5:20

that Israel could have used to help

5:22

identify where a cache would be. Well

5:24

gentlemen, we are forced to reverse engineer

5:26

this case. Keys is caught and then

5:28

this mystery starts to unfold for investigators

5:30

and the FBI in particular. So

5:33

we need to start with how

5:35

did Israel Keys get apprehended and

5:37

what for? Yeah, so Keys' apprehension

5:39

is funny because the whole mythology

5:41

surrounding Keys is he's the most

5:44

meticulous, thoughtful serial killer ever. And

5:46

he actually got caught being

5:49

pretty reckless and stupid. He was arrested on March

5:51

13 of 2012 in Lufkin, Texas after

5:56

he had used a missing

5:58

woman named Semir. for

8:00

our listeners here, for the folks that

8:02

are not familiar with this case. We

8:05

have his first known

8:07

victim, which was

8:10

taken from Alaska, correct? He's

8:12

abducted her from a drive-through

8:14

coffee stand the day

8:16

before he and his family left to

8:18

go on a cruise in Anchorage, Alaska.

8:20

She's working alone, and then I believe

8:23

he kept her captive on his property

8:25

for some time? Well, he kept

8:27

her on his property for some time. He

8:29

abducted her and essentially drove around Anchorage with

8:31

her in his car for, I think, two

8:34

to three hours while he was waiting for

8:36

his family to go to sleep. When

8:38

he felt like the coast was clear, he

8:41

took her back to a shed in his

8:43

driveway where he tied

8:45

her up and assaulted

8:47

her, eventually realized that

8:50

in the haste of abducting her, he had

8:53

not gotten some of her items that he

8:55

needed, specifically a debit card. So he drove

8:58

back to her house, went through

9:00

her car, got her debit

9:02

card, returned, got

9:04

the PIN number from her to use

9:06

at a later date. As far

9:09

as we can tell, he kept Samantha alive

9:11

in that shed for about four

9:14

hours and then killed

9:17

her, immediately went into his house,

9:19

showered and took his kid to the airport

9:21

so they could take this family cruise. But

9:23

he kept Samantha in the shed in his

9:26

driveway for weeks while

9:28

he was traveling in Texas, Louisiana,

9:30

and the Caribbean. This attack and

9:32

abduction and murder takes place in

9:34

Alaska where he's living. And then

9:36

after apprehension, hundreds of miles away

9:39

in the state of Texas, he's

9:41

confessing to a double homicide

9:43

that took place the year

9:45

prior, hundreds of miles away

9:47

from Texas in Vermont. And so I

9:50

wanted to make that clear to all

9:52

the listeners there, how expansive his

9:54

crimes and crime scenes

9:57

and victims that he's left behind could be.

10:00

already trailing from Alaska all the

10:02

way out to Vermont. And Josh,

10:04

could you break down what

10:06

is known about his confessions and his

10:08

interviews after he gets caught?

10:11

Yeah. So, you know,

10:14

he only ever confessed to

10:17

Samantha Koenig's murder and the murders of

10:19

Bill and Lorraine Currier, but like I

10:22

had previously mentioned, he did insinuate or

10:25

actually state that there were other victims.

10:28

And it's interesting because I think you could

10:30

take these interviews in many different ways. One

10:32

could be bragging, but what he said that

10:34

has always stuck with me is, this is

10:36

the first time I'm able to talk about

10:38

these things. So I think while

10:40

trying to not give them

10:43

too much information, he was also very

10:45

excited to talk about this other life

10:47

that he had been living for 14

10:49

years. It became abundantly clear

10:51

that Keyes had rules about

10:54

abducting and killing people. And he didn't

10:56

always stay true to those rules. The

10:58

first one was never abduct

11:00

or kill someone from your own backyard,

11:02

which he obviously did with Samantha Koenig.

11:04

And I think that's a big reason

11:07

he got caught eventually. So you would

11:09

see as the FBI started

11:11

talking to him and going through his

11:13

travel records that he had traveled extensively

11:15

in the 14 years that he claimed

11:17

to be active, so 98

11:19

to 2012. In

11:21

that time, he traveled to almost every single

11:24

state, multiple countries. And

11:27

in addition to just traveling away from his

11:30

home base to commit crimes, he would go

11:33

to great lengths to muddy

11:35

his travels. So for example,

11:37

when he abducted the couriers, he flew

11:41

into Chicago, rented a car,

11:43

drove from Chicago to Vermont,

11:46

abducted them, and then immediately left the

11:48

area. He drove to Maine. So this

11:50

became his MO. It's something

11:52

he bragged about to the FBI.

11:55

However, we don't believe that this

11:57

MO was consistent across all crimes.

11:59

I've talked to multiple criminal psychologists

12:02

and the general consensus is there were crimes

12:05

of desire and opportunity and

12:08

then crimes that took place

12:10

because he couldn't have the right

12:12

victim or the right circumstance but was primed to

12:14

kill. So a lot

12:17

of the mythology surrounding Keyes is he was

12:19

super meticulous and he only lived by these

12:21

rules and while they were rules he wanted

12:23

to commit crimes by, they were often

12:26

the exception and not the rule. So

12:28

let me just wrap my head around

12:30

this. He confesses, he's caught for a

12:32

crime that took place in 2012 and

12:35

then he confesses to crimes that took place in 2011 but you

12:38

say that there was

12:40

a 14 year period so

12:43

during one of these interviews he's alluding to

12:46

the idea that he started 14 years prior.

12:48

What he says verbatim is when asked

12:51

how long he's been two different people

12:53

he says 14 years. Unfortunately

12:56

the language is a little bit muddy

12:58

here but they ask how long he's

13:00

gone in between crimes I believe and

13:02

he says three years while he was

13:04

in the Army and he

13:06

enlisted in the Army in 98 which again corroborates

13:09

that 14 year period. Now there's

13:11

some confusion about what he means

13:13

by that whether the crime he

13:15

committed in 98 was a murder or just an

13:19

assault which he does go

13:21

into pretty specific detailed

13:23

accounts regarding an assault he

13:25

committed he believes in 97

13:27

or 98. So there

13:30

isn't clarity around when he

13:32

began killing people but the

13:35

two lines I'm thinking are either 98 or 2001.

13:37

So active across the entire country for 12 to

13:39

14 years

13:45

and the thing about Keys

13:47

is he was sexually motivated he

13:50

was bisexual he said

13:52

that once his daughter was born he

13:54

stopped targeting children but essentially

13:56

any American could be a Keys

13:58

victim because he took care of

14:01

him. targeted men and women and

14:03

occasionally children and traveled the entire

14:05

country. With the bill in Lorraine

14:07

courier homicides out in Vermont, what

14:11

do we learn about that? Because when

14:14

you say he flies into Chicago, rents

14:17

a car and then goes off

14:19

driving several states away and finds

14:21

two victims there, were

14:23

these two targeted? We know that

14:25

he had a murder kit that

14:27

it's believed that he had a murder kit there that

14:29

he had hidden months

14:32

or years prior. So

14:34

do we know for certain if these two victims

14:36

were, were chosen and watched

14:38

for any period of time? Or

14:41

was he simply going to go

14:43

to this area, retrieve the kill

14:45

kit and then go find a

14:48

victim? That is a great question. And I'll start

14:50

with what we know for sure. He

14:52

buried a kill kit about half

14:54

a mile from their house two years

14:56

prior to abducting them. He

14:59

told the FBI that they

15:01

were chosen basically because of the house

15:03

that they lived in, uh,

15:05

that he had not chosen them as victims,

15:07

but was looking for a specific type of

15:10

house to break into and to abduct someone

15:12

from. And then there

15:14

are a few lines of thinking. One is that

15:16

he's telling the truth. I believe that

15:18

he had actually targeted this couple for

15:20

some period of time prior to abducting

15:23

them. Lorraine courier had told a

15:25

friend that a man had been watching her.

15:27

In the weeks leading up to her disappearance,

15:30

there are multiple sightings, placing keys in

15:32

the area of their home in the

15:34

weeks and months leading up to their

15:36

disappearance. There is some

15:38

reason to believe that keys

15:41

and bill courier may have digitally crossed

15:43

paths prior to the abduction. So, you

15:46

know, I

15:49

don't want to say positively that they were previously

15:52

selected by keys. And I know

15:54

that at least Josh from somewhere in the pines does. not

16:00

necessarily agree with that. But

16:02

I think there's enough compelling circumstantial

16:04

evidence to consider that

16:06

he might have, not just in this case,

16:08

but in several others preselected and

16:11

then targeted a victim for some time prior

16:13

to abducting them. We'll give Joshua a chance

16:15

to weigh in here in a second. But

16:18

back to if he was telling the

16:20

truth, that he was selecting a particular

16:22

home, fill us in on why

16:24

that is. It didn't have something to do with

16:27

his work history, what he did for

16:29

a living, his expertise. Possibly.

16:34

There's a lot of content. I don't have

16:36

it all by heart. But I don't recall

16:38

him ever making that distinction.

16:40

But he did say

16:42

that he was looking for single-story, ranch-style

16:45

homes with a single-car garage and

16:47

no other cars in the driveway.

16:49

He said that they were easier

16:51

to get in and out of,

16:54

that it was more likely that there were

16:56

fewer people in a home, if there was

16:59

only a single car, and that he wanted

17:01

an attached garage so he could move the

17:04

abductees from their home into their

17:06

car and leave the premises as

17:08

quickly as possible without anyone witnessing them. That

17:11

he would have a good guess at

17:14

the layout of the building or the

17:16

house as well. Yeah, that too. And

17:18

going back to my theory or hypothesis

17:20

that he had pre-chosen this couple, he

17:23

said that he walked from his motel

17:26

essentially to their house and this was

17:28

the first house that matched that desired

17:30

description. I've walked it many times and

17:32

there are many houses like that between

17:34

his hotel and the career zone. One

17:36

of the things that's fascinating about Israel

17:39

Keys, it seems like

17:41

you were saying he has this list

17:44

of rules that he tries to follow. So

17:47

at some point, obviously, he understood

17:49

that he had these urges to

17:52

kill and obviously then maybe he

17:54

then goes on to study other

17:57

killers. Do we have a definitive?

18:00

list of these rules that

18:02

he tried to follow? Um,

18:04

ish. You know, he

18:06

never pulled up an

18:09

Excel spreadsheet and put together his rules.

18:11

But yeah, you know, he said never

18:14

commit crimes in your own backyard. Immediately

18:17

leave the area once you've

18:19

committed a crime. One

18:21

rule which we actually have no evidence that

18:23

he ever followed was abduct a victim

18:26

from one state, assault

18:29

them and or murder them in a second

18:31

state and then bury them in a third

18:33

state. Another was to

18:35

plan his crimes in conjunction with

18:37

travels. So it looked like he

18:39

would be too busy to commit

18:41

these crimes. You know, a great

18:43

example is, like I had

18:46

mentioned, he abducted Samantha Koenig just hours before

18:48

he went on a family cruise in

18:51

out of Louisiana. With the

18:54

couriers, he visited his mother days

18:56

before he abducted them in Indiana

18:58

and then visited his brothers immediately

19:01

following his murder of them in

19:03

Maine. So, you know, he

19:05

did follow the rules most of the time.

19:07

He would turn off his phone, he would

19:09

stop using credit cards, or he would use

19:11

credit cards in a way to place

19:14

him somewhere he actually wasn't. He would

19:17

often book several hotels in different areas

19:19

for the same night. So, you

19:21

know, it was more of an ideology

19:23

than a rule book. But again, the thing

19:26

about Keyes is he was more meticulous

19:28

in his planning than he was in the

19:30

actual execution of his crimes. Yeah, so

19:32

the one thing about the stalking

19:36

victims, I think when Israel describes

19:38

finding the house for the couriers that a lot of that

19:41

makes sense in my eyes.

19:43

I'm also a contractor. Dakota is also

19:45

a contractor and Israel Keyes was a

19:47

contractor. And you've worked in this home,

19:49

we've worked in this style home so

19:52

many times over the years that it's

19:54

very easy to identify the layout of

19:56

the house from just the exterior, even

19:59

like where the bath Maybe there's a difference of

20:01

where the bathroom may be, but you can even

20:03

identify that by the roof. So

20:05

I think the way that he describes it makes a

20:08

lot of sense. Like a typical

20:10

serial killer that would go and have

20:12

like the trolling phase and the stalking

20:14

phase. I think he mainly did that

20:16

more towards locations than

20:18

towards specific people.

20:21

Just trying to find, he said before that he's

20:24

always driving around looking for good places to do

20:26

stuff. And I think that's

20:28

really what his main focus

20:30

was. To try to

20:33

identify a good, something that

20:35

he feels familiar with as

20:37

a spot to abduct someone. And then so we've

20:40

reached out, we've been lucky enough to reach out to

20:42

Special Agent Ted Halla from the FBI. And

20:45

we asked him specifically if there

20:47

has been any evidence that Israel

20:49

has stocked any victims. And they said they've

20:52

had zero evidence for any

20:54

victims. And then we also

20:56

spoke with Julia Cowley from the consult. She's

20:58

a retired FBI profiler. And they talk a

21:00

little bit about this in one episode. They

21:03

also feel that he did

21:05

not stock victims. They covered the courier case

21:07

and the Samantha Kony

21:09

case separately. As two

21:11

separate cases, not even realizing that they're tied together.

21:13

And they still said that they don't think there's

21:15

any real connection, any stalking between

21:18

them. So that's kind of where I

21:20

get my point of view from. And I think that probably

21:23

one of the cool things about teaming up with

21:25

Josh and his team has been that we've been

21:28

able to share these different perspectives over

21:30

a group of people that are very familiar with the case.

21:32

So we're coming up with new ideas all the time.

21:34

It's been, I think, a really

21:36

good process, having people challenge

21:38

your ideas back and forth. Well,

21:41

like you said, he sometimes follows

21:43

rules and sometimes doesn't. So, but

21:46

it seems what you guys

21:48

were saying is he studied these locations.

21:51

And that was probably more important to him

21:53

than the actual victim. Yeah, I'm sure he,

21:55

the ideal situation is he could have his

21:57

perfect victim. But I think the. the

22:00

overarching thing is finding a location where

22:03

he would feel safe and comfortable to

22:05

abduct somebody. And a lot of

22:07

things that Josh had just said about the garage

22:09

having window access, there's a fan in the window.

22:11

So he had access to the garage very easily.

22:13

He had a spot in the backyard

22:15

where he could hide. And I think

22:17

just walking around the house, he was able to

22:19

identify that this was an older couple, what bedroom

22:22

they were staying in because they had a fan

22:24

on. It was a really muggy night, I guess,

22:26

really humid night. So I think

22:28

it was... I guess another thing

22:30

that was really important is the location where

22:32

he found the victims compared to the location where he's

22:35

going to take them. It was just

22:37

three right-hand turns, very quick access to get out

22:39

of that neighborhood on the highway and to the

22:41

farmhouse where he eventually sexually assaulted them

22:43

and then murdered them. And

22:45

that was an abandoned old

22:48

house, correct, where he took the victims?

22:51

Yeah. Yeah. He said that he had, I believe

22:53

it was for sale at the time. And if

22:55

I recall correctly, he had seen a listing for

22:57

it in a real estate magazine. And

23:01

his one

23:04

form of torture he was going to

23:07

use during those assaults and

23:09

the murders was having

23:11

one victim witness the other victim. He

23:14

never specifically said that, but that's

23:17

kind of my opinion. I believe that's a

23:20

general consensus. I'll let Joshua and Dakota weigh

23:22

in on their thoughts. This is something that

23:24

I think I find super fascinating because the

23:26

two times that he speaks about having a

23:29

couple, one male and one female, in

23:32

both situations, the male is killed premature of

23:34

the actual plan that he had in place.

23:38

There's a couple that he took in Washington

23:40

that he ended up hitting

23:42

the male over the head with a shovel

23:44

to quiet them down or to hopefully

23:46

just take them out for a minute, but it ended up killing

23:49

them. And then with Bill Currier,

23:51

as he was assaulting his wife

23:53

Lorraine, he came downstairs. Bill Currier was

23:55

trying to get loose and trying to

23:58

fight back and Israel eventually came. came

24:00

down and shot him with the silencer just

24:02

because he was too unruly during

24:04

that time period. So I'm really fascinated by

24:06

what the actual plan was and he didn't

24:08

really get into detail with that. Yeah, I

24:10

don't know. I'm just super fascinated

24:13

by what the possibilities are there and why

24:15

each time that he described it, both male

24:17

victims were killed before the actual

24:19

event. So Israel Keys has these

24:22

roles that he's trying to follow and

24:24

I think that makes them fascinating. The

24:27

other thing that's really fascinating about Israel

24:29

Keys is these hidden murder

24:32

kits. Can somebody

24:34

explain these? I think

24:36

it's important to, just in case people don't

24:38

know, to briefly explain what

24:40

a cash is, because I don't think

24:43

that everyone knows this. A cash

24:45

is a stored container of goods

24:47

hidden to be retrieved and used

24:49

at a later date. So you

24:52

usually relate this to survivalists cashing

24:54

food or a kind of

24:56

like a guerrilla wartime tactic of cashing

24:58

weapons and ammo. In this

25:00

case, we have a serial killer that's cashing

25:03

items used for abduction and murder and

25:05

he's cashing these items all across the United

25:08

States for him to retrieve at a later

25:10

date. The cash, for example, that was buried

25:12

in Essex, Vermont that was used in the

25:14

courier abduction and murder, that was that they

25:16

were abducted in 2011. It was placed two

25:19

years earlier

25:21

and we believe it coincides with another murder back

25:23

in April of 2009. It was buried

25:27

within the Essex city limits,

25:29

very close to a highway,

25:31

very close to apartments and

25:33

hotels and big box stores,

25:35

things like that. So these

25:38

things aren't way off in

25:40

the wilderness somewhere. They're somewhere very

25:43

accessible for him to retrieve and

25:45

use in a

25:47

very convenient way. He left this

25:49

kit in Essex there for

25:51

two years, came back for

25:54

it and although it was the

25:57

actual kit, the container was never contained.

26:00

recovered by the FBI, but

26:02

Keys gave a lot

26:04

of details on this

26:07

cash and how he used it,

26:09

which was really important for our

26:12

research and figuring out how

26:15

he used these things and what

26:17

exactly role they

26:19

played in his crimes. So we

26:22

have a ton of information about this cash and

26:24

how he used it. And we were able to

26:26

kind of look at, so there was

26:28

three caches that were recovered by the FBI. And

26:30

so we were able to look at the three

26:32

caches and kind of

26:34

identify markers and landmarks

26:37

that were

26:39

similar in each

26:41

situation. And so when

26:43

we talk about the kill kits, these

26:45

caches have items for, like I said,

26:47

abduction and murder. So we're talking about

26:51

weapons, knives, guns, ammunition. Then

26:53

you have binding materials like

26:55

zip ties, rope, duct

26:58

tape, things like that. And that

27:00

would be considered the kill kit.

27:02

I think that one thing

27:04

that we kind of learned about this

27:06

kit in particular was that the kit

27:08

in Essex in particular was that it

27:11

was in a wooden box. And

27:13

I'm not sure if I think

27:15

I kind of feel like this shows his

27:18

evolution a little bit when it comes to

27:20

strategy is that when

27:22

he came back to get this box

27:24

that had guns and ammunition in it,

27:27

and it had been in this kind of wetland

27:30

along the river for two years,

27:32

his guns were damaged

27:35

a little bit. They were rusty. And

27:37

so he had to take them back to his hotel,

27:39

which was only like a five minute

27:41

walk or a 10 minute walk away.

27:44

And so this cache was extremely accessible.

27:46

It was right in

27:48

the city. And so he had to go

27:51

and clean up his guns before

27:53

he approached whatever house or person he

27:55

was going to approach to abduct. And

27:57

so after that, he was able to

27:59

get the gun the courier abduction, he

28:02

reburied this cache in a new

28:05

container in another location. And that

28:07

new container was a five gallon

28:09

bucket with a sealed lid.

28:12

And so I'm not sure if the

28:14

box was just a container of opportunity

28:17

at the time. Back

28:19

in 2009, maybe it's the only container that

28:21

he could come up with

28:23

at that moment. Or maybe this shows a

28:25

bit of evolution where he realized, oh, I

28:27

need a better container

28:29

to protect these

28:31

materials so that when I get back to them, I

28:33

know they're going to be in working order. But

28:36

so he reburies this cache after

28:38

the courier abduction and murder in

28:41

a five gallon bucket in upstate New York. One

28:44

thing that Joshua and I have noticed

28:46

is that there's not only

28:48

one type of cache, but we can get

28:50

to that a little bit later if you

28:52

guys want. Well, and man cannot control mother

28:54

nature. So those wetlands may not

28:57

have been so wet when he first put

28:59

those items there to start with. And then

29:02

he learned along the way that it's,

29:04

it's, it's interesting to

29:06

go back and retrospectively watch and

29:08

learn how these guys learn and

29:11

adapt what it is that

29:13

they are doing to try to achieve their

29:16

horrific goals with

29:19

him being locked up. So he

29:21

gets caught and we're kind of,

29:24

they're really hoping to pull a lot of information out

29:26

of Israel keys. They

29:29

do kind of, uh, it sounds like to me,

29:31

they did like a very mind hunter sort

29:34

of thing where they played toward

29:36

the psychology of the situation and

29:38

of the perpetrator with

29:41

the idea of, oh, well, let's bring

29:43

in a female agent and

29:45

have her kind of lead these

29:48

interviews and steer the ship. And maybe he

29:50

will open up more to a lady

29:53

rather than, than

29:55

a male agent. Yeah.

29:57

I, you know, he was first. with

30:00

Alaska PD when they got

30:02

back to Anchorage, and there

30:04

was a detective Monique Dahl

30:07

who he had very clearly developed,

30:09

for lack of a better word,

30:11

a good rapport with. He was

30:14

a lot more candid with her

30:16

and chatty with her. And so

30:18

I think when the

30:20

Anchorage FBI kind of took the reins,

30:22

I think that was very critical

30:25

and apt in

30:27

their decision to put Jolene

30:30

Godin as the lead FBI

30:32

investigator on the case. As

30:34

far as we can tell, he never developed quite

30:36

that same rapport with Godin that he had with

30:39

Dahl, but I have found that

30:41

he is a lot more talkative when

30:43

she is in the room. Yeah, for

30:46

sure. And I think that he actually

30:48

requested early in the

30:50

first couple of interviews in Anchorage actually

30:54

requested to tell the

30:56

story of Samantha Koenig's

30:58

abduction specifically to Detective

31:02

Dahl and didn't

31:04

want many other people in the room. And so I

31:07

think that was a big tell for

31:10

the investigators to know, okay, he's going to

31:12

open up to a female more than he's

31:14

going to open up to a male. And

31:16

it's interesting because I've heard a lot of

31:18

takes on this that it was about control

31:21

or reliving his

31:23

experiences, but I think it's much more

31:25

simple than that. This was a guy who

31:27

was raised in a household with nine

31:29

women and then went on to have a

31:32

daughter and multiple girlfriends. And he

31:34

seemed to be just generally a lot

31:36

closer to women because of the way

31:38

and the environment that he was raised

31:40

in. So I don't really

31:43

think it has a great deal to

31:45

do with controlling or reliving and more

31:47

to do with just his comfort level.

31:49

Yeah, if he doesn't feel threatened by

31:51

the individual, he might be more

31:54

likely to be vulnerable. Yeah. And he even

31:56

said that he likes talking to women because

31:58

he... never really

32:00

had to be himself. And I think

32:03

that kind of came into play here, where

32:06

he got to be himself for

32:08

the first time with women in

32:10

a way that I think maybe

32:13

gave him power, but not in the way

32:15

that we generally tend to think in male-female

32:17

dynamics. Do you think that maybe he was

32:19

or felt

32:21

that a woman was

32:23

going to be more affected or

32:25

shocked by his retelling? Sometimes.

32:29

I think maybe that's the facade. I

32:33

think he wanted to talk to women because he

32:36

was more comfortable talking to women, but he wanted

32:38

the people in the room to believe that it

32:40

was about something else. But

32:44

I changed my mind daily on a

32:46

lot of this stuff, which I'm sure you guys do too. Yeah,

32:49

the confessions and the FBI interviews

32:51

is something that I

32:54

am completely fascinated with

32:57

here. What do you

32:59

think we learn about him? Because like you

33:01

just said, there's a part of him

33:04

that is also still playing a

33:06

game here. I

33:09

am constantly struck by just

33:12

the situation he's gotten himself

33:15

into where he is trying

33:17

to maintain control, but he's also excited

33:19

to talk about these things. I think

33:22

that push and pull of

33:24

his psyche is one of the most evident

33:28

and prolonged situations in these interviews.

33:30

This guy who is really torn

33:33

between his

33:35

internal desires and his need for control,

33:37

and it comes out. He'll say something and

33:39

then he'll immediately be like, oh fuck,

33:41

I shouldn't have said that. Not in

33:43

so many words, but he'll recoil or

33:45

retract or change the subject. I think

33:48

that's what I am most profoundly struck by.

33:50

I guess viewing him

33:53

as a human and not a

33:55

monster is you see these weird

33:57

idiosyncrasies and this weird dynamic where

33:59

he's in conflict with himself

34:01

throughout these entire interviews. Yeah.

34:04

And Ted Holla, we

34:06

asked Ted, if, especially to Ted

34:08

Holla, if he thought

34:11

that Keys was mostly honest

34:13

in interviews or if he thought he

34:15

was a liar or just what his opinion

34:17

of that was. And I

34:23

think that it was his answer

34:25

was spot on, which is, it's

34:27

very obvious when Keys

34:30

gets kind of backed into a corner where he

34:32

doesn't, he knows that they're

34:34

talking about information that is accurate and

34:37

he doesn't want to go any further. He kind

34:40

of recedes into himself and starts

34:43

mumbling and, you know,

34:45

his body language, it makes it really

34:47

obvious when he's either

34:49

being deceptive or flat out

34:52

lying. Yeah. And I've spoken

34:54

with and worked with quite

34:56

closely doctors, forensic

34:59

and criminal psychologists, doctors,

35:01

Ramsland and Kunkel, and they

35:04

both independently came to

35:06

that same conclusion. This is not a guy who's prone

35:08

to fantasy. This is not a guy who is a

35:10

natural born liar. For the most

35:12

part, he is telling as much truth as

35:14

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35:17

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37:47

Green Gobbler here. So you've got a clogged

37:49

drain in your bathroom. Water in the sinks

37:51

overstaying its welcome. You're spitting today's

37:53

toothpaste on top of yesterday's toothpaste. You

37:55

hope that it go away. Eh,

37:58

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38:11

Because I never met a clog that was

38:13

going to unclog itself. Green Gobbler. Let the

38:15

gobbler get it. And

38:21

he enjoyed being cryptic along the

38:24

way, it seems like. Like

38:37

you said, and at times when he's

38:40

a little more obvious, that's

38:42

when he wants to take the information back

38:44

or spin it a different way. I

38:47

think at some point, as to the captain's

38:49

point, that he's playing

38:51

this game of I

38:54

got a whole lot of information or some

38:57

of it maybe even made up. But

38:59

I have a whole lot of information that

39:01

these people really want to know. And

39:04

if I deliver it in a certain way, in a

39:06

certain manner, I might just

39:08

live forever. Because people will continue

39:10

to analyze this for a

39:12

very long time. And as

39:14

I'm sure you guys have seen, and Josh, you've

39:17

pointed out on your show, that

39:19

some people analyze this and really

39:22

make something out of nothing. But

39:26

he opened that door to

39:29

allow that to happen. Yeah, I

39:31

agree and disagree. I

39:34

think that's his worst nightmare, is people

39:37

analyzing his words ad nauseam in

39:40

a public setting like we're doing

39:42

today. I think that's his

39:44

worst nightmare. His greatest

39:46

thing with control was that he didn't

39:49

want people to know what he did or who

39:51

he was. I think he

39:53

knew that the more he gave away, the more

39:55

likely he was to

39:57

become infamous. I

40:00

think up until the end, that's not what

40:02

he wanted at all. He wanted to quietly

40:04

die in prison without anyone

40:06

ever talking about him. I named my show

40:08

after a quote from him where

40:10

he said, you know, I don't want to be caught up in

40:12

all this true crime bullshit. So I

40:15

think, you know, that's what he wanted

40:17

and why he was careful about what

40:19

he was saying. And I think his strategy

40:21

was to be very thoughtful and deliberate

40:23

about the language he was using so that

40:26

he wasn't necessarily lying, but he was

40:28

lying by omission or concealing things

40:30

through language. Because

40:32

I think even he knew and it's abundantly

40:35

clear to anyone who's watched these tapes, like

40:37

he is a terrible liar. Yeah. And

40:39

he, I think he was like, kind

40:42

of learning, learning the interrogation game. I

40:44

don't, I don't, he didn't go into

40:46

it prepared for that. I

40:48

don't think he kind of handed over the

40:50

courier story on a silver platter when he

40:53

didn't really need to. I believe

40:55

that he thought that the FBI

40:57

was going to be able to connect him

40:59

to that abduction and murder when

41:02

they might not have. And

41:05

so I think he definitely regretted that later

41:07

on. And so he

41:09

was trying to figure out what

41:11

information he could give and keep

41:13

the FBI happy and get what

41:15

he wanted. But he realized that he

41:17

didn't have to give as much as he thought he did. So

41:20

we think maybe he thought they're going to

41:22

find out anyway. Maybe I have a chance

41:24

here to control the

41:27

narrative and

41:29

tell it my way rather

41:31

than how everything

41:35

went down to the T. Yeah.

41:37

I think that, and again, going

41:39

back to his internal desires,

41:41

which is like, oh, I can talk about this stuff.

41:43

So like, I will control the

41:45

narrative. I get to talk about these things that I did

41:47

and brag about these things that I did only because

41:50

I have a sense that you're going to

41:52

find out anyway. And

41:54

he talked about less than a dozen victims. And I

41:56

think that is very much a product

41:59

of this. he thought once

42:01

the FBI looked at his computer, they

42:03

could tie him to 11 victims. Now, whether

42:06

there were more is up for

42:08

debate, but I think that's what

42:10

he went into those interrogations originally

42:12

thinking, like, okay, they have my

42:14

computer. Who can they tie

42:16

me to? I'm going to control the narrative.

42:18

It seems like a fine line, too, that

42:21

he was walking, because the way I always

42:23

kind of took keys with the information that

42:25

he was giving and what he was willing

42:27

to talk about with

42:29

the authorities. It seemed to

42:31

me, my opinion was that he wanted to

42:34

tell some of these stories and

42:36

some of the horrific acts that he did,

42:39

either being a form of

42:41

confession or a form of

42:43

bragging or maybe a mashing

42:46

of the two. But then

42:48

he also has this other side

42:50

of him where it's like, oh, my

42:53

daughter one day is going to hear

42:55

these things. My daughter at some point

42:57

will become aware of what

43:00

kind of monster and just how disgusting

43:02

I really am. So I

43:05

always thought he was walking this weird, very

43:08

conflicting, fine line of

43:10

what information he

43:12

wanted to give, as

43:15

well as what was going to be what people thought

43:17

of him in the end. You can hear him actually

43:20

grapple with that in real time

43:22

during the interrogations. He talks about how

43:24

he has to get

43:26

comfortable with actually starting to talk to people

43:28

about these things because he's had cut them

43:30

inside his entire life. So

43:33

it's really interesting. The interrogations

43:35

are absolutely fascinating. It's like

43:37

over 30 hours where

43:39

they'll just break down so many parts

43:42

of his crimes, the arsons,

43:44

the burglaries, the sexual assaults,

43:46

the murders, and they'll

43:48

get all these little tiny pieces here

43:50

and there where he's speaking

43:52

freely at one moment and it

43:55

doesn't seem like he realizes that they'll be able

43:57

to connect those things together later on.

43:59

down the line. But then at

44:02

the same time, it's fascinating because he will talk

44:04

freely, but he will distance himself.

44:06

Like he very rarely says rape or

44:08

murder or kill. And the few times

44:11

he does say the word rape, he

44:13

gets very sheepish about it.

44:15

And I think that goes back to like,

44:18

in many ways, he was raised to be the caretaker

44:20

of his family. And it's a role that I

44:22

think I will never know how

44:24

he felt about it, but I think it's a role that

44:26

gave him purpose. And I

44:28

think that comes into play when he's talking about these

44:31

things where it's like, I want to talk about what

44:33

I've done, but I still have significant amount of shame

44:35

about it. And I want to

44:37

protect my family. And we could argue all

44:39

day about the intentions of protecting his family,

44:42

but I do think some of them

44:44

were pure. I think he

44:46

did care as much as someone like him

44:48

can about the people in his life and

44:50

whether that care comes from narcissism

44:52

or a more, I guess, typical

44:54

care, we'll never know. It's

44:57

so bizarre because you get these

44:59

guys and what they're

45:01

willing to admit to. And then the things,

45:04

the same equally disgusting acts

45:07

that they're embarrassed about where Sam

45:10

Little, he admits, he

45:12

tells police and investigators, FBI,

45:14

that he murdered over 90

45:16

people. But if you accuse him

45:18

of rape, he would get very

45:20

angry and very worked up and say,

45:22

I may

45:24

have killed her, but I didn't rape

45:27

her. He instantly, he's angry at the

45:29

accusation that he would rape somebody. All

45:31

these interviews and confessions

45:34

and cryptic messages and what have

45:36

you all leads up

45:38

to his eventual suicide, Israel keys

45:41

suicide. Yeah. His body was

45:43

found at 557 AM,

45:46

December 12th, 2012. And basically

45:51

what happened is that they found him in

45:53

his cell with a razor blade that was

45:55

attached to a pencil, I believe, and he

45:57

used that to slit his wrists. And

46:00

he also tried to hang

46:02

himself with his sheets, I believe. There's

46:05

a great article. Let's see if I

46:07

can find it here. It's the untold

46:09

story behind Israel Keys' jailhouse suicide. And

46:11

it talks about, it's from the Anchorage

46:14

Daily News, and it

46:16

talks about how the DOC

46:18

officer was actually removed

46:20

from position after they found the body because

46:22

there was alleged that the officer was reading

46:24

a book only 25 feet away from Keys

46:27

while he committed suicide. So I read the

46:29

article because it's super interesting. So

46:31

Israel Keys had been hinting at suicide for a

46:34

while during the interrogation, saying things like, I

46:36

don't need you, I can

46:38

do this on my own. And he

46:40

was getting very tired with the cumbersome

46:42

legal process. And it seems like

46:45

it was more just an opportunity where he was

46:47

able to find a

46:49

razor, a disposable razor, and

46:52

then eventually kill himself in what

46:54

they call the ritualistic suicide. Now,

46:58

one of the strangest things, maybe the

47:00

reason that they call it ritualistic suicide,

47:02

is that he wrote in blood on

47:04

a cell wall, and

47:06

he wrote the word caracol in

47:08

big letters in blood across the cell wall.

47:10

And this is also, we've confirmed this in

47:12

the case file. We know it's

47:14

kind of been up to bait, up for

47:16

debate whether it was Belize, but caracol is

47:18

a spot in Belize. We're

47:20

kind of excited because we're going to be

47:23

speaking with the retired FBI profiler

47:25

Julia Cowley about a suicide note.

47:28

Because he also left a note that they found

47:30

underneath him that was, you can kind of piece

47:32

some of it together, but some of it was

47:35

erased by his blood. So

47:37

we're going to sit down with her and go

47:39

over the suicide note and how that

47:42

relates to caracol. And also on

47:44

October 20th, we'll be at the

47:46

Berkshire Podcast Festival. So

47:48

plug for you, Josh, releasing a brand

47:51

new piece of information that will be connected

47:53

to everything that we're super excited

47:55

about. But what was found in his cell,

47:57

so he commits suicide in

47:59

his cell. cell, what do we

48:01

find in his cell? Basically, just

48:05

him. The only thing that was left

48:07

in his cell was just a typical item in

48:09

his cell, and then his body with the suicide

48:11

note and the writing on the wall. So

48:14

that's the only thing that was, there was

48:16

no other items discovered other than the razor

48:19

that he had snuck into his cell. But

48:21

there is some misconception around other

48:24

materials taken from a cell prior to

48:26

his suicide. Yes,

48:28

that's correct. So in July of

48:30

2012, they actually found 12 drawings in his

48:33

cell, 12 individual

48:39

drawings, 11 of them were skulls

48:42

that were basically finger painted in

48:44

blood. They each had an upside

48:46

down cross on their forehead. And

48:48

then the 12th drawing was actually

48:50

a drawing of Baphomet

48:55

with an upside down pentagram. And on

48:57

one of the skull drawings, it had

48:59

the words, we are one. But

49:01

that was not actually, those drawings were not found

49:04

when he committed suicide, those drawings were found months

49:06

before. And that's basically around the time that he

49:08

started to hint that he would just take his

49:10

own life instead of going through

49:12

the legal process. So we

49:14

have these drawings found before

49:17

his suicide. They go

49:19

into the cell, they find him, they find

49:21

a suicide note, and then a writing on

49:23

the wall. Do we have the information

49:25

of what was in the suicide note and what

49:27

was written on the wall? Yeah, the suicide note

49:29

has been released to the public. So

49:31

you can look that up online. And it's more

49:33

of a, it's less of a suicide note and

49:36

more of a note about how much he hates

49:39

America and Americans is the way that

49:41

I view it. He also, he did

49:44

write what the FBI is calling a suicide

49:46

note, or more of a goodbye note to

49:49

his family. And that was recovered again, as

49:51

well, much further before, much

49:53

earlier before his, his

49:55

actual eventual death. So

49:57

this, this suicide note was more of a

49:59

goodbye. letter to his family, kind of letting

50:01

them know what roughly what had

50:04

happened that he did do these things. And

50:06

then a new piece of information that the FBI

50:08

told us is that he there

50:11

were actually two separate letters. So there's the

50:13

goodbye letter. And then there's also a note

50:16

that, especially to holla describes

50:18

as a really odd document. It's an

50:20

all block letters. And

50:22

it basically starts to describe all of

50:24

his victims and what

50:27

he did them in very graphic detail. He

50:30

described, well, let me, he

50:32

doesn't describe all his victims, he describes six

50:34

victims. And they believe that he

50:36

was interrupted while writing this note. So unfortunately,

50:38

they don't have the full details of all

50:41

of his crimes. But

50:43

in this document, it's basically just

50:45

goes into extreme detail. And there's

50:47

no evidentiary value, evidentiary value listed,

50:50

it's really just kind

50:52

of, I don't know if it's just

50:55

for his own personal use,

50:57

or something that it was eventually going

50:59

to give to the FBI. What's really

51:01

telling about the, the skulls,

51:03

the and the timing of that is, you

51:06

know, the DOC, the Anchorage DOC and

51:09

the oversight within the prison

51:11

was it seems like not

51:14

it wasn't done very well. I mean,

51:16

a source I have a source that

51:18

worked for the Anchorage DOC and he told me that after

51:22

keys was able to commit suicide that

51:24

the DOC re restructured how they do

51:26

sweeps how they do cell sweeps. And

51:28

he referred to some of the old protocols

51:30

as archaic. He I have

51:33

him quoted as saying, I don't think we had

51:35

the infrastructure to deal with someone like keys. Just

51:38

the fact that he was able to, you know,

51:41

these these skulls were

51:43

drawn months before his

51:46

suicide, meaning the keys was able to

51:49

self harm long before he actually took

51:51

his own life in December of 2012.

51:53

This source in the DOC says

51:56

that we would be shocked to know what kind

51:58

of contraband is floating around in in prisons,

52:01

and he referred to describe

52:03

things like drugs, weapons, drones,

52:06

convection, ovens, pornography, and

52:08

the list just kind of went on. And so it's not

52:10

a stretch to think that Israel could have gotten his hands

52:12

on the items he needed to

52:14

commit suicide. And I think that once he

52:17

realized that he could gain

52:19

access to those items, that that's

52:21

when the interrogations with

52:23

the FBI started to really break

52:26

down and he realized that

52:28

he didn't need them to be able to

52:30

accomplish his goal. Well, and

52:32

the FBI seems to be pretty clear

52:36

about their findings and

52:39

their statement to the general public about

52:41

these writings that were found under

52:44

his body in his cell

52:46

that they had to clean up, because it's covered in his

52:48

blood at this point. Their statement is

52:51

the FBI concluded there was no hidden

52:53

code or message in the writings. Further,

52:56

it was determined that the writings do not

52:58

offer any investigative clues or leads as

53:01

to the identity of other

53:03

possible victims. And we've been

53:05

given a little kind of insight

53:07

into some of the writings

53:09

that haven't been released. And it sounds like

53:11

that there possibly is some

53:14

investigative value in that. He

53:18

had talked about some scenery at specific

53:20

locations, things

53:23

like that, that would at least maybe

53:26

not identify the location completely,

53:29

but it would at least give you some sort of

53:32

guide or bullet points to

53:34

investigate by, to

53:37

be like, if he describes

53:39

a certain piece of scenery

53:42

that you know, okay, you

53:44

can eliminate some of these other locations, things

53:46

like that. So I think that there is

53:48

some value in those writings. Do you believe

53:50

the suicide was just to not

53:52

go through the process to not be in a cage

53:57

or was it maybe also that

54:00

he knew the longer he was there,

54:02

the more information he'd be giving law

54:04

enforcement. I think it's both. I think

54:06

that it's a control, has everything to

54:08

do with control. I think that he

54:10

knew that he was, the

54:13

longer he was in there and talking to the FBI,

54:15

the more information he would give up. Also,

54:17

he at one point said that

54:20

he was never planning

54:22

on going to prison. He thought for

54:24

sure that he would be killed before

54:26

he was arrested. Also, the timing of

54:28

the suicide is interesting to me for

54:30

that reason because I want to say

54:32

two weeks before he died by suicide,

54:34

he was scheduled to help the FBI

54:36

do a ground search in Tupperlate where

54:39

he claimed that he buried

54:41

one of his victims. He did not show up to

54:43

that meeting, so they rescheduled.

54:46

I believe the date that they had

54:48

rescheduled to do this search would

54:51

have been the day after he died by

54:53

suicide. I've always been curious about whether

54:56

that timing was specific and

54:58

intentional. A block-lettered note, it

55:01

did describe the murders of William and

55:03

Lorraine Currier and also Samantha

55:05

Koenig. They know that it

55:07

was directly connected to specific

55:10

murders that he had done. As

55:12

Dakota was just talking about how there is some

55:14

evidentiary value in them, there's also

55:16

a description of another female

55:18

that was taken who had a very

55:21

rich grandmother and an old

55:24

car. Maybe it was an old

55:26

rich grandparent, I could be wrong

55:29

in that. No, it was a

55:31

wealthy grandmother and an old car,

55:34

old make sedan. I forget the specifics. There

55:37

were two clear, I

55:39

don't know if clues is the right word, but

55:41

indicators of a victim. Let's

55:44

talk possible victims. Let's

55:46

just go around the table. If

55:49

you had to guess, how many victims do

55:51

you think Israel keys had? I

55:53

mean, my specific opinion changes

55:55

all the time, but I would say

55:57

I generally believe

56:00

there's probably between 15 and 25. CB

56:02

Yeah. I go

56:05

all over the place with it. I can't

56:08

land on a number really. I know that the

56:11

FBI landed on 11, but they

56:13

did so in kind of an arbitrary

56:15

way. Keys knows that the FBI

56:18

landed on 11, and then

56:20

he draws 11 skulls. There's

56:22

a lot of conversation or

56:24

different points of view on the 11

56:27

skulls and what that meant. Was

56:30

he just kind of trying to confirm

56:32

that for the FBI and make sure

56:34

that they stuck to 11? Does it

56:36

actually represent his

56:39

full catalog of victims or

56:42

some people say it even represents his

56:44

family, like his brothers and sisters and

56:46

things like that. It's

56:48

very possible that he was just kind of

56:50

toying with the FBI and saying, yeah, you

56:52

landed on 11 in this kind

56:55

of silly way because he

56:57

never actually said it. I don't

57:00

have a number. CB Okay. So a question. So

57:03

is there a possibility that Israel Keys

57:05

believes that they thought there's 11 and

57:07

then he drew the 11 skulls? Is

57:09

that what you're stating? CB That's always

57:11

been my opinion. CB Yeah, that's a

57:13

high possibility. CB And then so we

57:16

have 11 skulls and one pentagram

57:19

basically. What do you

57:21

think this means? CB

57:23

The 12th picture was a picture of Beaufamette,

57:26

the horned goat. You

57:28

might remember, I think it was on the cover

57:30

of a Stephen King novel at one point. That's

57:32

I think where I first saw it when I

57:35

was a teenager or something

57:37

like that. So people

57:39

think that that represents him and then the

57:41

11 skulls represent his

57:43

victims. And so it's

57:45

very possible that he was just trying to confirm

57:47

11 with the FBI.

57:49

CB I kind of am sticking with

57:51

11 until we have more information. I

57:54

do agree with Josh though that I

57:57

think that Keys thought that they could

57:59

find 11 victims. on his computer, so that's why

58:01

he stuck with 11. But until

58:04

we have more information, it's very

58:07

easy to be like, oh, he killed tons

58:09

of people. And he said things like, Canadians

58:12

don't count, things like

58:15

that. That would make you think that he

58:17

killed a lot more than he did. But

58:19

I think the thing that is really exciting about

58:21

this case is that there's so

58:24

much information out there that eventually

58:26

we're going to get to a point where we can

58:28

figure out one of his patterns. I think once we

58:30

figure out one specific pattern, I think it's just going

58:32

to blow the entire case open and

58:34

we'll be able to really tell how many victims

58:36

he really had. So

58:49

much more to get to, so

58:51

many fascinating things, so much to

58:54

unpack. Make sure you join

58:56

us back here in the garage. Until then,

58:58

be good, be kind, and

59:01

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