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1:36

Hello and welcome to the Restis Football

1:38

with just me, Gary Lineker, at the

1:41

moment. But I am joined for a

1:43

special edition, given the news that we

1:45

now have a new England coach in

1:47

Thomas Tuchl. A German coach, of course.

1:49

So I thought it might be quite

1:51

fitting. To speak to someone that knows

1:53

all about German football, knows all about

1:56

Thomas Tuchl. He's been a top journalist.

1:58

I've known him for a long time.

2:00

I'm working together for

2:02

BT. A warm welcome

2:04

to Raphael Hernigstein. Hernigstein.

2:07

I've not tried. I tried my best.

2:09

Thank you, Gary. I think it's the

2:11

only app that you start to speak

2:13

German properly now under these circumstances. Yes.

2:15

Das ist gut. My first question about

2:18

our new manager. How do we say

2:20

Thomas Tuchel? Is it Thomas Tuchel or

2:22

Thomas Tuchel? What is it? We need

2:24

to get that right, don't we, for

2:26

a start? Thomas Tuchel.

2:28

The Scousers will find it easier to

2:31

pronounce. I

2:33

think they will. Did it take you by

2:35

surprise? Yes and no. I mean, that's most

2:37

of the time the answer in these things.

2:40

But as soon as it became clear that

2:42

the FA were determined to get a big

2:44

name in rather than somebody had to be

2:46

English, then he was clearly the best candidate.

2:48

Pep was not available. Clop was not available.

2:50

Where else can you go? Thomas Tuchel was

2:53

a logical candidate. And he was really angling

2:55

for a job in England. He wanted to

2:57

be back in England. He loved it at

2:59

Chelsea. He kept on talking even at Bayern

3:01

Munich when he was boss there, how much

3:03

he loves working with English players, how the

3:06

dressing room mentality is good in brackets,

3:08

is not as good in Germany, brackets

3:11

closed. And I think he was so

3:13

willing to listen when they came knocking

3:16

that from that perspective, it did not

3:18

surprise me at all. And here we'll look at that

3:21

squad of multi-talented players, won't you, and

3:23

think, I've got half a chance

3:25

to win something, do something really special here. Yeah,

3:27

100%. It's not just that.

3:29

I mean, the squad is wonderful, especially in

3:31

the final third of the pitch. So much

3:33

talent. But also, unlike at Bayern,

3:35

unlike at PSG, unlike at Chelsea, unlike at

3:38

Dortmund, where he had always issues at some

3:40

stage with the people above him, there is

3:42

no one above him that's going to say

3:44

to him, we're going to buy this player,

3:46

we're going to buy that player, we want

3:48

you to play this guy, or

3:50

that guy's out of contract, we want you to put him

3:52

on the bench. Or you know what, what

3:54

do you think about buying this guy? None

3:56

of these things that have rubbed them the

3:58

wrong way, that bothered him in his

4:01

recent jobs apply. I

4:03

think that is the beauty of it. You

4:05

have the full control. You don't like a

4:08

particular player. He's not under contract. You just

4:10

stop calling him up. If somebody upstairs doesn't

4:12

like it, they're not going to say anything.

4:14

It's all down to you. So I think

4:16

he will absolutely relish that

4:18

power that comes with being the one person

4:21

and the only person that matters when it

4:23

comes to the squad. Did he generally wrestle

4:25

with those kind of problems, did he, at

4:27

his previous clubs? I mean, we know it

4:29

kind of fell out at Chelsea at the

4:32

end, obviously at Bayern Munich as well. PSG

4:35

always brings its problems because he's quite

4:37

volatile, isn't he? He is outspoken. He

4:39

can be quite stubborn. He can be

4:41

a little bit too honest for his

4:43

own good at times. All these things

4:46

came to the fore when there are

4:48

differences in opinion on certain players. To

4:50

just take Bayern as the most recent

4:52

example, he was very vocal about wanting

4:54

a holding midfield aboard for him. When

4:57

Bayern didn't do that, for whatever reason,

4:59

he was left with the players he

5:01

had to begin with. But having

5:03

spent two, three weeks, sometimes months talking

5:06

about all the things they can't do

5:08

and explaining why he needed somebody else.

5:11

So as you can imagine, once you've done

5:13

that, the trust, the relationship isn't quite the

5:15

same with these players. And to a similar

5:18

extent with the people above, when there are

5:20

differences in opinion, Tuchel has been very vocal,

5:22

didn't hold back at times. And that certainly

5:24

was a big problem with Dortmund. PSG fell

5:27

out with the sporting director Leonardo, who admittedly

5:29

tried to interfere on the training ground, which

5:31

I don't think would have gone down well

5:34

with any coach really. And Chelsea, it worked

5:36

really well under the old ownership and then

5:38

the new ownership, which I think have their

5:40

own issues, were

5:43

far too over-Baring, I think, for

5:45

his taste. And that thing did

5:47

not last. So international football might

5:49

suit him. Let's go back

5:51

to the start. What was his career in

5:53

terms of being a football? He didn't play

5:55

that often. He's not got too many games

5:57

under his belt. Why was that? Like many-

6:00

of those coaches who come out of nowhere

6:02

because he had to finish his career really

6:04

early, got a serious knee injury, playing

6:07

for Ulm under Ralf Rangnick, had to

6:09

start coaching or wanted to become a

6:11

coach early on in his 20s and

6:13

was given a bit of a break.

6:15

He initially did some scouting, I think,

6:17

and while studying for a degree and

6:19

working in a bar in

6:21

a pretty hipster place in Stuttgart with a

6:24

hipster haircut while he still had a

6:26

bit more hair, he

6:28

started coaching. Then quickly

6:30

rose through the youth ranks and

6:32

then had an opportunity when Mainz

6:34

fired their manager very early on

6:36

into the season. The manager had

6:38

succeeded Klopp, incidentally, was suddenly

6:41

promoted from the under 23s because he'd

6:43

won the championship with them, and then

6:45

became a really transformative manager at Mainz,

6:47

then Dortmund, and the rest. Alex Blauw

6:49

He's kind of a very similar path

6:51

in some ways to Klopp.

6:53

Paul Jay Yeah, I mean Klopp was

6:55

a legit second division player. He played

6:57

hundreds of games, so he had a

6:59

proper career. Alex Blauw Yeah, I'm talking

7:01

about in terms of the coaching path.

7:03

Yeah. Paul Jay Yeah, 100%. You went

7:05

from Mainz to Dortmund, but then from

7:07

Dortmund not to Liverpool, but to Wembley

7:09

via Paris and Munich. Alex

7:12

Blauw I remember talking to you about him

7:14

when he was getting the Chelsea job. You

7:16

said, I can't remember the percentages, but something

7:18

like 60 or 70% genius

7:20

and 30% lunatic,

7:22

mad, whatever word, like volatile, whatever word you

7:24

want to use. Does that still apply? Paul

7:27

Jay That was a quote. I'm not sure

7:29

percentages are quite right, but that was a

7:31

quote from his biography.

7:33

They had talked to somebody who

7:35

said, those two things are kind

7:37

of always present, and

7:39

sometimes the percentages switch one

7:42

way or the other. That was the quote.

7:44

And I think there's

7:47

some truth in it because he can

7:49

be, when he doesn't like a particular

7:51

player, he can be very brutal, very

7:53

harsh. Players getting banished from the team

7:56

hotel on the day of

7:58

a cup final, if they're not in the school.

8:00

and things like that where you think, okay, this

8:02

is a bit extreme. There's some really funny

8:05

old videos where he talks to

8:07

a player at Mainz and tells him in

8:09

front of the whole team, what

8:12

is this football you're playing? This is not our football.

8:14

I don't know what you have a million ideas, but

8:16

none of them are relevant to our football and

8:19

really gives him a massive dressing gown. And

8:22

so he has that edge

8:24

to him. Can be a little bit

8:26

cold-hearted, I think, that's fair to say.

8:28

Yeah, the genius side of it though,

8:30

is that presumably the coaching and his

8:34

vision and imagination for football?

8:36

I think so. I think

8:38

he understands and sees football

8:40

not far removed from

8:42

the level that Pep Guardiola is at, where

8:44

he looks at a game and sees the

8:46

patterns and sees the things that most of

8:49

us, certainly I, miss first time around. Maybe

8:51

I have to watch this game three or

8:53

four times and then I see it. These

8:55

guys see it instantly. They have discussions about

8:57

esoteric subjects that no one can

8:59

follow. They had this famous meeting of Mainz

9:02

in Munich in the

9:05

bar when Pep was coaching at Bayern and

9:07

he very graciously worked on Tucho because he

9:09

was impressed with his coaching. They talked about

9:11

football for hours and hours using

9:14

peppermills and glasses to do the

9:16

formations on the pitch. Somebody

9:19

told me that in the beginning, a lot of people

9:21

tried to listen in. And then

9:23

as they realized that they couldn't understand

9:25

what they're talking about, more and more

9:27

people just gave up. And in the

9:29

end, there was just one or two

9:32

left. So he definitely has, I think,

9:34

a feel and understanding of the game

9:37

that is up there with the elite coaches.

9:39

What's interesting with him is that in the

9:41

beginning, he used to be very much a

9:44

Pep Guardiola disciple. He

9:47

loved Guardiola. He wanted to be like Guardiola.

9:49

The football is very free flowing. And what

9:51

happened was as he moved to PSG, realizing

9:53

that there is no way that I'm going

9:56

to get Messi and Neymar to

9:58

press or to play any sort of patterns

10:00

that I want, I'll just have to kind

10:02

of relax and let them do their thing.

10:04

He became more and more pragmatic and adjusted

10:07

more and more to the situation. At Chelsea,

10:09

you remember you played with a back three

10:11

and it was quite a pragmatic, sometimes very

10:13

defensive, reactive setup. At Bayern,

10:15

he couldn't play that way in terms

10:17

of formation, but often the football was

10:20

also a little bit reactive. He wanted

10:22

his team to sit and

10:24

absorb the pressure and then have more

10:26

space to attack and play a little

10:28

bit on the break. And it didn't

10:30

really go down so well with the

10:32

fans, with the players, and with some

10:34

people on the board. So

10:36

I'm really excited and interested to see what

10:39

kind of total blueprint will emerge, because I

10:41

think his instinct is still to be an

10:44

attacking manager, but he's often found himself being

10:46

more problematic when he feels that

10:48

this team or these players

10:50

can't quite play that way. He will

10:52

actually play something completely different

10:55

with them. It will be interesting to

10:57

see because obviously the criticisms of the

10:59

previous coach, even though obviously he did

11:01

very well in terms of two finals,

11:04

a semifinal and a quarterfinal in four

11:06

major tournaments, which are record better than

11:08

anyone else previously. But the downside for

11:10

most people, most critics, was that he

11:13

was a very, very cautious and more

11:15

than pragmatic coach. So

11:17

do you think Tuchl will

11:19

look at that and think, look

11:22

probably what he's got available to him

11:24

in terms of the plethora of attacking

11:26

footballers and adapt to that and play

11:28

a more imaginative attacking game? I

11:31

mean, this is the interesting question. I don't

11:33

know. He could well

11:35

feel that, you know, this imbalance that England

11:37

have, they're so top heavy with all the

11:40

talent being on one side of the pitch,

11:42

that the solution is not to have them

11:45

all play, but actually to have few of

11:47

them play and make some

11:49

tough decisions and leave some of those performers

11:51

out, but have more stability and play a

11:53

more balanced game or pragmatic game.

11:55

Or he might feel the opposite. He might

11:57

say, we can only play this particular way. with

12:00

his team. But the interesting thing at Bayern

12:02

was that he felt because he

12:04

doesn't have a holding midfielder, you can't

12:06

play this expensive passing game because every

12:08

counter attack they kill you. Now we

12:10

see Bayern without him with basically the

12:12

identical team playing this Guardiola

12:14

type football under company and

12:17

people saying we can't quite understand what Tucho was

12:19

on about. In the end it became a self-fulfilling

12:21

prophecy because as you know sometimes when coaches don't

12:23

get their way the board will say well thank

12:25

god we didn't let him buy all these players

12:28

because we got rid of him and now we

12:30

would have stuck with the players. But he can

12:32

say well I never got my players, I never

12:34

had a real chance of playing the

12:36

football I wanted to. Which goes back to the

12:38

earlier point, he's not going to have a problem.

12:40

He can pick and choose and do whatever he

12:43

wants with perhaps the exception of I think Harry

12:45

Kane and maybe Saka who can't

12:47

leave out. He's going to be his own man

12:49

and he's going to decide and I can tell

12:51

you one thing he's not going to be interested

12:53

in whether people say it's not entertaining enough or

12:55

it's too negative. If he feels this

12:58

is the best way to win games he's

13:00

just going to play like that. Okay let's

13:02

take a little breather and when we come

13:04

back I want to talk about a few

13:06

more things about Thomas Trujal but mainly about

13:08

what they think about it in Germany. We'll

13:10

be back in a minute. This.

13:14

Episode has brought to you by state for

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14:45

back to the Restage Football with

14:48

me, Garren Ilica and Raphael Hönigstein.

14:50

Raphael, in Germany, what are they

14:52

saying? German coach

14:54

managing England, what are they saying? I'd

14:56

be fascinated to know. Well, so far,

14:58

I haven't really seen any big think

15:01

pieces or big opinions. I think it's

15:03

just very matter of fact, hooray, there's

15:05

another German manager in a top position

15:07

that reflects well on German football, reflects

15:09

well on German coaching. It's

15:11

England and Wembley, four places, which is

15:13

really seen as something quite sacred

15:15

and something, you know, hallowed turf

15:17

and so on. And I think people

15:19

by and large are just sort of proud that

15:21

there is a German at the helm of this storied

15:24

football nation. I think that is the

15:26

groundswell of opinion. When it goes towards

15:29

tournaments and maybe, you know, God forbid

15:31

we play each other in the

15:34

knockouts and it goes to penalties, I don't know

15:36

what's going to happen. The final, it's written in

15:38

the stars. It's going to be written in the

15:40

stars. England, Germany, final, penalty shootout. For the time.

15:43

And at the end, the German always wins. Not

15:46

the Germans. One German or more Germans will

15:48

win. I don't know

15:50

if maybe opinion will change. My best

15:52

hunch is that it won't because for

15:54

two reasons. One, as I said, I

15:57

think people think it's cool as a

15:59

German manager coaching in. is a cool

16:01

thing. And second, there is no real

16:03

dislike towards England as a football nation.

16:05

If anything, it's a sort of mild,

16:07

positive attitude. We look

16:09

up to England, we like English football. We

16:12

sometimes make fun of them when

16:14

they don't win, which happens not

16:17

so frequently anymore. Unfortunately, they win

16:19

too much for my taste. But

16:21

you know what it's like. There's a bento,

16:24

but it's much more good-natured,

16:26

I would say, from our perspective

16:29

than this more sort of

16:31

real animosity that we, for example, have

16:34

with the Italians and the Dutch. England

16:36

is a much milder rivalry. And

16:39

of course, it's also easier to

16:41

have good relations with a nation

16:43

that doesn't win anything. So that's

16:46

helped in the last 60 or so

16:48

years. Well, let's

16:50

hope a German can change that.

16:52

I think looking at Thomas, I

16:54

talked about it on our podcast,

16:57

we did an emergency podcast that went

16:59

out earlier. On that, we talked about

17:01

an FA Cup tie at

17:04

Barnsley, where Chelsea were playing. And it was

17:06

during COVID, so there's no crowd. So you

17:08

could hear everything, which is really unusual. You

17:11

could hear everything that was coming from the

17:13

bench. Wow, boy, oh boy, he's got a

17:15

bit of a temper to him. And he

17:18

was very encouraging at times, but also

17:20

very, very demanding of his players as

17:22

well, which will be interesting to see

17:24

how that pans out. And obviously, it's

17:26

slightly different to club football, because you

17:28

can probably rotate a little bit more

17:30

in club football and bring players different

17:32

ones in. But when you've got this

17:34

much talent, it will have that problem

17:36

that any coach, which is not a

17:38

bad problem, really, is to try and

17:40

keep happy, incredibly talented players

17:42

that are not in the starting 11.

17:45

Yeah, 100%. And that is my one

17:47

concern, if that is indeed the

17:49

right word for this role, because he is

17:52

not the most empathetic

17:54

of managers. He's not really somebody

17:56

who creates a huge emotional bond

17:58

between him and the players, between

18:00

the players and each other. It's

18:02

not his way of doing things.

18:04

He's very technical. Lots of

18:06

players don't want it any other way. They don't

18:08

want the hugs. They don't want all this other

18:10

stuff. They're just happy that somebody can help them

18:12

to play better on the pitch. But when it

18:14

comes to fostering this kind of relationship that you

18:16

perhaps need, if you're all together for four or

18:18

five weeks in the same spot,

18:20

unlike with club football, where you'll go home

18:23

after a few hours, this is something I

18:25

think you'll need to adapt to and perhaps

18:27

add another string to his ball. Because you're

18:30

right to point at his body language

18:33

at Bayern, even in a full stadium. You could

18:35

so often see him shaking his

18:37

head or demonstrating with his coach,

18:39

saying, you know, what are these guys doing?

18:42

Afterwards, he would come out and say

18:44

in the press, we had a really

18:47

good plan, but the players did something

18:49

completely different today. And that's

18:51

why things didn't work out. So if

18:53

he doesn't, I think, find common ground

18:55

also on an emotional level with England

18:58

players, I think it's going to be

19:00

more difficult to create the kind of

19:02

positive environment that Garrosavge so clearly managed

19:05

to implement. And I think that is one

19:08

of the main reasons that England have had this consistency.

19:10

They might not have had the

19:12

tactical acumen and competence that Tucho

19:14

will bring, but under the base

19:16

of it was a lot more

19:18

about the culture, the emotions. And

19:21

I'm not sure he's going to be able to

19:23

replicate that. He's a very different animal to Garrosavge.

19:26

That was his great strength, wasn't it? So they've

19:28

kind of gone from it's a drastic

19:30

change in styles in many

19:33

ways, certainly of personalities in the two coaches.

19:35

100%. And I think

19:37

that maybe the FA or the people

19:39

in charge underestimate just how different Tucho

19:42

is in the dressing room compared with

19:44

the charming erudite and sometimes

19:46

really funny Tucho that we see in

19:48

press conferences, because he doesn't quite manage

19:51

that way. And I hope it doesn't

19:53

come as a bit of a shock.

19:55

I mean, he loved English players and

19:58

wanted to get more English his

20:00

experience, they don't need

20:02

all this bodily

20:04

cuddling and this blanket around

20:07

them and ego massage, which

20:09

might be true, but I think it's still

20:11

different when you go to England because their

20:13

people go, not because they're under contract and

20:15

they're professional, because they feel something for the

20:17

shirt and they want to do something for

20:19

England. And I think that is maybe something

20:21

he hasn't yet

20:25

fully contemplated or

20:27

at least seen in action. And

20:30

I'm not sure the FA quite understand

20:32

just how different his personality can be

20:34

as opposed to the public persona. I

20:36

interviewed him, he's very charming. He

20:39

can be very charming in that sense, but once he gets

20:42

in that dressing room, he turns into a slightly

20:44

different animal. It's a bit like you, Gary. Absolutely,

20:49

a little dark side there somewhere. Why is

20:52

it that Germany are producing currently

20:54

so many top coaches? There's a few reasons for

20:56

this. First of all, you can be an under

20:58

23 coach and then

21:00

you'll be given the chance to actually

21:02

coach a Bundesliga side. Without that chance,

21:04

Touche might still be somewhere in the

21:06

under 23s. So not

21:09

only do we produce coaches, but

21:11

we produce the environment, the ability

21:13

for coaches to progress and being

21:15

seen. And that I think is

21:17

totally key. You know,

21:19

club former player gets a job at Mainz,

21:22

Touche under 23 coach gets a

21:24

job at Mainz, Nagelsmann

21:26

under 23 coach at Hoffenheim

21:28

gets the seniors job at

21:30

Hoffenheim. Tedesco is another

21:32

one. We have, I think the openness

21:35

and people taking a chance on coaches like

21:37

that. Then of course they still have to

21:39

do well. They still have to show that

21:41

they know what they're doing. And I think

21:43

they know what they're doing because they are

21:46

just obsessed workers. These are people who, 24

21:48

hours a day, think

21:50

about football, work on training

21:53

practices, watch the games back

21:55

three or four times, try to come up

21:57

with new ideas, try to find an...

22:00

edge and they do so because again

22:02

in their clubs, they would

22:04

have come for a system where you cannot

22:06

simply buy three or four players to improve

22:08

the team. The improvement has to come more

22:10

often than not through the coaching. That

22:13

is your real edge. So it's

22:15

a different culture. And the

22:17

third reason is that I think they

22:19

have grown up in the model

22:22

where you have shared responsibilities,

22:24

they're coaches rather than managers.

22:27

They think about coaching and

22:30

when it comes to, let's say, a

22:32

big English club signing a manager and somebody

22:34

comes in and says, I don't want

22:36

to buy all the players. I

22:38

don't want to tell you who the best

22:41

under 16 manager is. I just want to

22:43

coach my first team. You do the rest.

22:45

That is hugely attractive for these owners. So

22:47

they also like this way

22:49

of doing things that a lot of

22:51

the German coaches have. Does it surprise

22:53

you that the lack of success that

22:55

English coaches have had? German coaches have

22:57

got way, way more trophies for English

23:00

clubs than English coaches. It matters. Why

23:02

doesn't England produce these kind of coaches?

23:04

I think it's because of the way

23:06

the Premier League works. I think the

23:08

Premier League is a league that attracts

23:10

the best players from all over the

23:12

world. And it's just easy

23:14

to say who has won the league in

23:16

Germany, who has won the league in Portugal,

23:18

rather than getting, as used to be the

23:21

case, somebody from Scotland or

23:23

somebody who's just done really well

23:25

in the championship. It just doesn't

23:27

have that natural progression for English

23:29

coaches. When was the

23:31

last time that you heard about an

23:33

under 23 or a youth coach being

23:35

promoted to a senior job in English

23:37

football anywhere? Talking about club football. So

23:39

it just doesn't happen. So these coaches,

23:42

they don't really have

23:44

the ability to learn on the job.

23:46

It's very, very difficult if you have

23:48

a lot of supply, but no real

23:51

demand, no real possibility to

23:53

grow as a coach, to keep progressing

23:55

in an orderly fashion is hard. You're

23:58

looking at three or four coaches. who perhaps

24:00

were only in contention for the job, Potter

24:02

and Eddie Howe, and I'm already struggling to

24:05

name you a third one. It's because we

24:07

haven't seen too many English managers in the

24:09

Premier League to begin with. So the

24:12

pond is very shallow. Tournament football

24:14

is different by its nature than

24:16

Premier League, Bundesliga, Ligue, La

24:18

Liga, any of them. It's very different,

24:21

isn't it? That environment, that month together

24:23

for a major tournament. How do you

24:25

think he'll cope with that difference? Well,

24:28

England have to qualify first, of course, but let's

24:30

assume that they do. I'm

24:32

getting ahead of myself. My apologies. That's

24:34

part of our problem. Yeah. Book the

24:37

tickets now. No,

24:39

I'm sure they will qualify. And it's a great

24:42

question because it's going to be completely new for

24:44

him. Covid, I think, had an

24:46

element of that because at least

24:48

as a coaching team, they were stuck in a hotel

24:51

together for weeks and months and

24:53

kind of enjoyed it. I

24:55

know he enjoyed it very much, working like

24:58

that without any distractions. But of

25:00

course, the same wasn't true of the players. And

25:02

I think he will have to either through

25:04

the coaching staff who does some of that

25:06

role for him quite well or

25:09

through himself develop more of an

25:11

emotional approach and

25:13

become a bit more approachable, a bit more

25:15

personable when it comes to talking to his

25:17

players, because these things, I think, do matter

25:19

when you spend so much time together and

25:22

you feel that the coach is very aloof

25:24

and very standoffish. It certainly I

25:26

think was a problem with Fabio Capello. Credits

25:28

were never in doubt as far as his

25:30

ability is concerned, but it didn't really seem

25:32

to have any kind of connection with his

25:34

players. I suppose that it will help the

25:37

fact that he's had experience of English footballs,

25:39

no doubt about that. Last question, have we

25:41

made a good appointment? I think so. Thomas

25:43

Tuchel, if I go back to

25:45

what I said earlier, if you are determined to

25:47

get a proven winner, you don't care what passport

25:49

he has, perhaps secretly you actually like that he's

25:51

not English. I don't know what

25:53

they were thinking, but it seems to

25:55

me that way there aren't that many

25:57

coaches of his caliber available. I'm sure

25:59

they looked at Guardiola. had no chance.

26:01

They looked at Klopp, had no chance.

26:04

I think once you are on that

26:06

shelf, on that bracket, looking at this

26:08

kind of calibre, you go to Tomastocho

26:10

quite naturally. But I think that change

26:12

from the England Klopp culture

26:14

that Geras Elfgaard has been able

26:16

to instill to a more, let's

26:18

say, technocratic approach or technical approach

26:21

might not be as smooth as

26:23

some people anticipate. Plus one more

26:25

thing, this is going to be

26:27

a very specialised sort of pressure

26:29

because usually you come in and

26:32

your job is to win and if

26:34

you win enough games, that's good enough. I

26:36

think with Tuchel, my sense is that anything

26:38

but making it to the final and winning

26:40

the workup is going to be seen as

26:43

failure after the run that Geras Elfgaard has

26:45

had. And I think that makes it very

26:47

difficult for any coach. If the difference between

26:49

success and failure is winning effectively the workup

26:51

or at least making it to the final,

26:53

then that doesn't leave you a lot of

26:55

room for errors. So

26:57

it's going to be pretty hard, I

26:59

think, despite England's wonderful talent. It's win

27:01

or bust. We'll see how it goes.

27:04

Rafa, thank you so much. Thank you,

27:06

Sean. See you again. Goodbye, everyone. I'm

27:14

Marina Hyde. And I'm Richard Osman.

27:16

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