0:00

One, two, one, two. Ready? Mic number one. Hello.

0:08

Louis Theroux here. How are you?

0:10

Welcome to another episode of my

0:12

podcast for Louis Theroux Podcast. And

0:20

for this episode, I sat down with

0:23

the legendary British artist Dame Tracey Emin.

0:26

After a turbulent childhood, some of which we discuss

0:28

in the chat, trigger warning, it

0:31

is turbulent in the extreme. She

0:33

then went to art college and subsequently

0:35

caught the attention of collector Charles Sarchi

0:37

who exhibited her work. Among

0:40

her key works are Everyone I Have Ever Slept With, 1963

0:42

to 1995, aka

0:45

The Tent. It's

0:48

a tent with kind of embroidered

0:50

names and information inside it.

0:53

That was exhibited in 1997. Another famous work

0:55

is My Bed, 1998. That

0:59

was a kind of rumpled,

1:01

real bed with sheets and

1:03

detritus around it. It was

1:06

Tracey's real bed, so

1:08

it was kind of making commentary on her life as

1:10

well as on intimacy and life in

1:12

general. And she's made

1:14

lots of other paintings and other forms of

1:16

art. She's worked in numerous media and

1:19

is highly regarded, like extremely collectible,

1:22

and has worked at the very

1:24

top of the artistic profession for

1:26

many years. I'm somewhere

1:28

between an art buffer, not an art

1:31

buffer. I go to galleries, but like a lot of

1:33

people, from time to time, I grapple with like

1:36

what is it and what's

1:39

the difference between something that's

1:41

actually interested in and

1:43

kind of challenging and a

1:45

decontextualized, ready-made piece of art

1:50

and what is just a

1:52

bunch of crap, if I can put it that way. You know what

1:54

I mean? Sometimes it feels like a con, but

1:56

sometimes it feels amazing. And I

1:58

think we explored some of my art. ambivalence in

2:01

the conversation. This one was recorded

2:03

in July 2024 and given Tracy's recent health

2:07

battles, she was diagnosed with cancer in

2:09

2020, she's now thankfully cancer free, we

2:12

decided to take the train down to Sunnymarket

2:14

to meet Tracy in her studio. You

2:17

will hear seagulls cooing, I think

2:21

that's about it for ambient noise, maybe

2:23

a bit of rumbling of cars, but it

2:26

meant that I had a little day trip,

2:28

our very first Louis Theroux on location for

2:30

the podcast recording.

2:33

It also meant I got a little walk around the

2:35

studio beforehand, I saw some of the paintings that form

2:37

her latest exhibition at White Cube in London. I was

2:41

guided around by her right hand

2:43

man Young Harry. Harry

2:45

is the

2:48

keeper of the keys, he's sort

2:50

of the amanuensis, is that the term? He is

2:52

the aide de camp and

2:56

throughout the interview I noticed Tracy

2:58

kind of peeking over at

3:00

Harry to sort

3:02

of check in with him because she's unguarded,

3:04

right, and she also doesn't want to get

3:07

into too much hot water, so he was kind

3:09

of flying

3:12

co-pilot with her a little bit. I don't mean

3:14

that as a critique, like it just

3:17

explains why from time to time I reference Harry and

3:19

I say to her like, are you looking at Harry?

3:23

We all need a Harry. There's

3:25

a couple of Harries in the room with me right now.

3:27

A warning, there is strong language in this

3:29

episode as well as difficult subject matter

3:31

including sexual assault, but first

3:35

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that supports everything

24:00

else is gone but yeah. So,

24:02

you know, some people have bladder

24:05

cancer. When it's caught really early, it's just

24:07

like fishing a tiny pea out of the

24:09

bladder and it's amazing because the bladders contain

24:11

the cancer and if it's a tumor, they

24:13

can just take it out. But

24:15

the kind of cancer I had was attached to

24:18

my wall of my bladder and

24:20

it's squamous cancer. So it's more like little

24:22

beads of water, so you can't contain it.

24:27

The only way you can get rid of it is

24:29

by cutting it away. Chemo doesn't work, that kind of

24:31

thing. So that's why most people

24:33

die because they take it all away and

24:36

then there's a tiny little bit left and then

24:38

it just starts up again. And

24:40

you think it was related to the smoking? Yeah,

24:42

definitely because I smoke so much

24:45

and it didn't affect my lungs.

24:47

And so what happens is the carbon

24:49

dioxide becomes liquefied and goes down into

24:51

the bladder. And it usually

24:54

comes on about 20 years after

24:56

you've given up smoking. When

25:00

you found out about the cancer, who did you call?

25:02

What did the rest of the day look like? Was

25:04

it in London? Yeah, it was interesting because it was

25:06

during lockdown, so there was like no one about, so

25:08

it was all kind of quite desolate. And I just

25:11

bought a new house and I walked to my new

25:13

house, let myself in, it was being

25:15

renovated and I sat on the steps and it's

25:17

the only quite twice about the

25:19

cancer. And one of these sort

25:21

of like tears came down my face. I

25:24

thought, fucking hell, I'm probably never gonna

25:26

live in this house. And then

25:28

I thought, this house is my dream house, I'm

25:31

gonna live in this house, I'm gonna live in this house. And

25:33

that was it, that's the only time I cried. And

25:35

then I went back to my studio and I was

25:38

gonna drive to Margate that day.

25:40

And it was about three in the afternoon and

25:43

I went to the fridge and I opened up

25:45

a bottle of champagne and I poured

25:47

a glass of champagne and I sat, this is

25:49

a truth, sat looking at a painting, sort

25:51

of red abstract painting with this sort of black,

25:53

sort of weird thing in it. And

25:56

I was spending ages and ages looking at it, thinking, what

25:59

is that? they

30:00

think it's attractive, then afterwards they don't.

30:04

Because they want it to be more about them? No,

30:07

it just might be, sadly, just be a primal

30:09

thing. Men just

30:11

want to be out there doing the hunting and

30:14

doing the stuff and expect something

30:16

from me but what they want, not

30:18

what I want, necessarily. I

30:21

mean, I'm quite a hardcore feminist. And

30:24

that's how I live. At

30:26

the end of today, I'm totally

30:28

independent, financially independent. I'm

30:30

singularly minded and I've been looking after myself

30:32

for a long time, since I was 15.

30:36

We have a friend sort of in common,

30:38

in Joan Collins, right, Dame Joan. And

30:41

Joan is also, I think she sometimes embraces the

30:43

term feminist, but she

30:45

also says men need to be tough. She

30:48

would like to see national service brought back. She

30:51

doesn't like the term toxic masculinity. And

30:54

she thinks me too has gone too

30:56

far. I'm summarising a

30:58

bit. And I

31:00

wonder if that resonates, any of that resonates with you?

31:04

One of my favourite things that

31:06

Joan never said was that being

31:08

born beautiful is like being born

31:10

rich and becoming poorer and poorer

31:12

every day. You

31:14

know, Joan is an incredibly beautiful

31:16

woman and she's really funny, really

31:18

funny. But Joan also comes

31:20

from another time, another era, another generation. She

31:22

has a different way of looking at things

31:24

from me entirely. But it doesn't mean to

31:27

say that we don't get on on lots

31:29

of other reasons. She's very, very funny. What

31:32

about things like, because your art is

31:34

so uncompromising and

31:37

powerful and makes

31:40

reference to sexual assault

31:42

and abortion and really

31:44

difficult challenging issues, I

31:46

wonder where you stand on the whole issue

31:48

of trigger warnings. So

31:51

if I said, yeah, we love your art Tracy,

31:53

but we want to put a trigger warning over

31:55

the gallery entrance. No,

31:57

usually there is. There's always a thing.

32:00

saying that under 16s or something like

32:02

this or like with my abortion film

32:04

there was a warning simply because eight

32:06

people I think passed out watching it

32:09

and you know

32:11

strong stuff up it

32:13

really does work makes people think it changes lives. We like you to tone it

32:15

down. We love it

32:17

we think it's a little strong we'd like you

32:19

to tone it down there are a couple of

32:21

pieces we're not comfortable with and

32:24

then you say no it's never gonna happen it's

32:27

never gonna happen. If you could

32:29

replace the word fuck with something like

32:32

copulate would that be okay? No

32:34

it doesn't happen it's about respect someone

32:36

wants me to show and show my

32:38

art that's it that's what they

32:40

get but there are there are

32:42

the odd occasion where you have to be a

32:45

little bit more I'd say

32:47

discreet but it's not about changing

32:49

the work or changing the meaning of the work

32:51

or whatever that's impossible because this is what I

32:54

do but the point

32:56

that you could be making is that when

32:59

I was younger what I did and what I stood

33:01

for was unacceptable in a lot of places people saw

33:03

it as being shocking or

33:05

brash or whatever without understanding that

33:07

subtext and the whole whole giant

33:09

conversation of it all. Is

33:12

there a piece of yours that was ever protested

33:15

or that you feel was

33:17

misunderstood in any way? Yeah a lot

33:19

of my work. Go on. Well the

33:21

tent because the tent people thought it

33:24

was like who I shacked because it

33:26

was called everyone I've ever slept with

33:28

from 1963 to 1995 ambiguous

33:33

yes sleep as in

33:35

sexually and also physically

33:38

sleep so it

33:41

was about a level of intimacy so

33:43

there were some cartoons at the time like of

33:45

all sort of like a TP tent with

33:48

like George P John you

33:50

know like these crude names or whatever but

33:52

it wasn't about that at all the

33:55

tent was all about intimacy the idea of the

33:57

tent was that people would go in read

34:00

about who I'd slept with and

34:03

then they come out and think about who they'd slept

34:05

with. And I said

34:07

at the time when I sewed that tent it was like

34:09

carving tombstones sometimes all the

34:11

memories and everything that it brought back because

34:13

it wasn't all very nice, it wasn't all

34:15

very good, it wasn't all positive

34:18

and like being raped at

34:20

13 is pretty negative, being sexually abused

34:22

as a child is really negative, living

34:24

with those thoughts, remembering those thoughts, trying

34:27

to hone in on them and work

34:29

it out is not necessarily a good

34:31

thing or a bad thing. And

34:33

I think they're the trigger things

34:36

that you could be talking about, those

34:38

things really matter but for me it

34:40

was important to investigate

34:43

that world for me and find out more

34:45

about myself and I did that through my

34:47

art and I still do it through my

34:49

art now in a much more subconscious way

34:51

which I enjoy a lot more I've got

34:53

to say. I think when I was young

34:55

it was very I'm going to make work

34:57

about abortion, I'm going to make work about

34:59

being raped, I'm going to make work about

35:01

this, I'm going to make work about that.

35:03

So in a way I've kind of illustrated

35:05

the fear or the thoughts that I had

35:07

whereas now they just come out kind of

35:09

magically or whatever I don't really know when

35:11

I'm painting and that's why I love painting

35:14

because it's much freer medium for me

35:16

to subconsciously get involved in because never

35:18

really know what's going to happen or

35:20

take place. With A Tent, how

35:22

did you make reference to the attackers because you

35:24

wouldn't have known, there were two there's a few

35:26

incidents that you describe in your book and one

35:28

is is it two men

35:31

who kind of they're just

35:33

strangers and they opportunistically grab you

35:36

right in Margate right age 13

35:38

do I have that? No I was older

35:40

I was actually 14. 14?

35:43

Yeah. But you wouldn't have known their names right? Yeah

35:45

I did know their names. You knew who they were.

35:47

They're names on The Tent. Everybody's name's

35:49

on The Tent but not necessarily

35:51

next to the anecdote or the story

35:53

that fits it because I didn't want

35:55

to be acquisational with The Tent. I

35:57

didn't do anything about it at the

35:59

time. of

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miss out. Can

39:16

I ask you about your contemporaries or is that going to

39:18

be... You can ask me what you know. So

39:29

you're often grouped in with the

39:32

other big name of the YBA generation,

39:34

Damien Hirst. Thoughts?

39:38

Going to look over to Harry now. What's

39:40

Harry doing? Winking at me, smiling, winking at

39:42

me. So, okay,

39:46

I think it's really hard to be an

39:48

artist. I think it's really difficult. I

39:51

think people who don't make art or don't attempt

39:53

to be an artist don't understand how

39:55

difficult it is to have that conviction,

39:58

that self-belief and everything. It

46:00

was extremely difficult living. I was really, like,

46:02

I am sensitive, I'm an artist. And I

46:04

think when I was young, I just was

46:06

so, everything was just, seemed really

46:08

difficult. And that's another reason why I think I

46:11

drank a lot. A lot

46:13

of people, they give up drinking, like, they

46:15

give up whatever drugs or drink or whatever it is.

46:17

I've never taken drugs, but I've never been interested. Any

46:20

kind? No, I tried, tried. Not

46:22

even a spliff? No, I'd been stoned three times

46:24

in my life. Didn't like it? No,

46:27

it's not a thing I'm into. I wouldn't ever

46:30

dream of, like, alcohol. Alcohol was your drug. That's

46:32

all you needed. Yeah, and cigarettes. And cocaine? No,

46:34

never. Didn't the YBAs? That was a big part

46:36

of the scene, wasn't it? Yeah, but not mine.

46:39

I bought a house instead. There

46:41

you go. I always say every pain. Who's

46:43

laughing now? But I was

46:45

never interested in it, ever. My

46:47

mind's too full. The way I think is too

46:49

full. The way I visualise things is

46:52

too full to be like, why

46:54

would I want to do that to myself? We didn't really

46:56

arrive anywhere with Damien Hirst. What do you think he's lost? No,

46:59

because you know what? I'm not really... As I said

47:01

to you, it's really hard being an artist. It's really

47:03

difficult. You just don't like the work. Is that what

47:05

it is? No, it's not that. It's just, like, I

47:08

think... A lot of

47:11

male artists, right, in general, always

47:13

say this, right? Men, they

47:16

sort of peak in their forties. They've

47:18

just one... It's like one massive giant

47:20

ejaculation, say. And women... That's

47:22

a nice image. Yeah. Women just tend to come and

47:24

come and come and come and come. So,

47:27

as a woman, you carry on, come

47:29

in all your life until you're old.

47:31

Like Louise Bourgeois, in 97, she stopped

47:33

working. She stopped working the day she

47:36

died, you know? Amazing. And

47:38

women have the capability of doing that as

47:40

long as they're given the opportunity to do

47:42

it. And I think a lot

47:44

of men peak in their forties, and women

47:46

continue. So maybe Damien peaked. I don't know.

47:48

We have to see. Only

47:51

time can tell. Only time can tell with

47:53

artists. You can't... You

47:55

can't. It's not clear. Like

47:58

now, if you look, Joan Mitchell...

48:00

for example, wow, she's like, you

48:03

know, undoubtedly one of the greatest

48:05

American abstract painters ever. Better

48:08

than Jackson Pollock. Joanne Mitchell,

48:10

the musician. Joanne Mitchell, the

48:13

painter. Okay. Cut

48:15

that bit out. Keep that

48:17

bit in. No, no, Joanne Mitchell. No,

48:19

it seems... I thought you were talking

48:21

about Joanne Miro. No,

48:24

Joanne Mitchell, the American... No,

48:26

but now I've said it, go to Tate Britain,

48:28

Tate Modern, and you'll see a big Joanne Mitchell

48:30

room. Joanne Mitchell. It must be annoying having a

48:33

name so close to someone else who's more famous.

48:36

No. Do you think it is? Yeah, but

48:38

also what's really annoying about this conversation is

48:40

you've just like ruined my

48:43

argument. And what was the argument? Because my

48:45

argument was good about Joanne Mitchell now, so

48:47

you wouldn't have heard about her back 30

48:50

years ago, but now Joanne Mitchell is the one

48:52

that's come into the fore and come into the...

48:54

and she's a woman. Do

48:57

you care about whether the artist

48:59

was a good person? Like,

49:01

whether they... You know, they saw business about

49:05

artists being cancelled, you know, they

49:08

were abusing their wife or

49:10

whatever, or involved in hideous activities.

49:12

Does that have any bearing? Yeah,

49:15

it does. Shouldn't, like, does. For

49:18

you? Yeah, you should

49:20

just look at the art, but,

49:23

you know, I can't help... Every time I

49:25

walk over a Carl Andre now, I think

49:28

about his wife falling out of a window.

49:30

I can't help it. Who's Carl Andre? Personally

49:33

made the bricks. Tracy

49:36

actually rolled her eyes when I asked

49:38

who's Carl Andre. She's

49:40

like they went sky up in her skull. Yeah,

49:43

but actually it's not a bad question to ask who he

49:45

is because now everybody knows

49:47

who his wife is. So... Did he

49:49

push her out the window? No one

49:51

really knows what happened, but she died

49:53

falling out of a window. No one

49:55

really knows what happened, but there's

49:57

some artists I can't say or whatever. But

50:00

most of it, unless I actually know for

50:02

a fact, I don't really like to say.

50:05

But I think in

50:07

all of the art world, all of

50:09

the worlds, so let's say fashion, cinema,

50:12

film, acting,

50:14

whatever, art is actually

50:16

quite good. In

50:19

what terms? Like a lot of women

50:21

are successful now. A lot of women

50:23

are museum directors. There

50:26

isn't a casting couch. Right, diversity

50:28

and inclusion. Yes, it's getting much,

50:30

much better. So, you

50:33

know, women don't tend to be pushed around that much

50:35

in the art world. Maybe 50

50:38

years ago, but now it's definitely getting so

50:41

much better. Did you mind, what

50:43

do you think about guerrilla acts like attacking

50:45

a piece of art? As

50:48

a statement, either a political or

50:50

artistic statement? I

50:52

don't think anyone should attack anything. What

50:55

about when, what about somewhat like there were a couple

50:57

of performance artists that got in the

51:00

bed, in your bed? Yeah, it was

51:02

really upsetting. Was it? Mm. Was

51:05

it in Japan? No, it was here in

51:07

London. There were Chinese artists. What's that all

51:09

about? Because they wanted to get attention. They

51:13

used my work to get themselves attention, which is

51:15

incorrect. They should have used it. So there's not

51:17

a room in the house for that? There's not

51:19

a room in the house for that. No, definitely

51:22

not. People should

51:24

make their own work and make their own careers. Banksy.

51:30

No, we're not going there. You try and

51:32

drag me down a hole. I don't want

51:34

to go. I don't mind arguing. I don't

51:36

mind difficult

51:38

things. But Banksy's

51:42

brilliant street artist, OK, globally

51:45

well known, gives lots to charity,

51:47

very generous person. OK.

51:52

You looked at Harry, I saw you. Yeah, I've been

51:55

looking at Harry everything. Yeah, he's smiling. That's why he's

51:57

making me laugh. Yeah. Harry

52:01

said to me, isn't Louis Vrouse supposed to be really

52:03

difficult? I'm not going to know. He's like, really nice.

52:05

Come on, Harry didn't say that. He should listen to

52:08

all his podcasts. No, he didn't. That

52:10

doesn't sound like Harry. Difficult.

52:14

I wish. A dream of the day.

52:17

Maybe one day. Do you think you'd become nicer? I

52:20

think that's what you think. And you haven't.

52:23

I don't think I was ever not nice. I do

52:26

think that I might have thought that... that

52:29

being involved in TV and broadcasting

52:32

meant being adversarial. I

52:34

had the attitude that a lot of TV was

52:36

corrupt because it was overly safe

52:39

and onside and therefore

52:41

not quite honest. But

52:43

nowadays I don't think that. I feel as though

52:45

I had it. I came up through satire and

52:47

a world of eviscerating people

52:49

because you didn't agree with their

52:52

politics. So for me, doing

52:54

an interview, not always, but often was like, let's

52:56

get the goods on them. And that's

52:59

in some contexts appropriate in

53:01

journalism, but in

53:03

some settings that feel... If you elevate

53:05

that principle above others, it can be

53:07

unkind. Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

53:11

So I think perhaps I have maybe mellowed

53:13

a bit. But

53:15

I've always been thin-skinned, anxious, nervous,

53:18

wanted to be liked. I've

53:20

just maybe allowed that to guide my editorial

53:22

choices a bit more. And I think a

53:24

bit like you... I drink

53:26

more than you're supposed to. And a lot of it... And I

53:28

can relate to what you were saying about not going out, or

53:31

feeling that there's these two personalities. Like, I'll think, I

53:33

don't want to go out to this party. And then

53:35

you go out and you drink and you have a

53:37

really good time and then feel a bit dirty the

53:40

next day because you probably drank more than you wanted

53:42

to, right? I

53:44

think a lot of that's to do with anxiety.

53:46

No, because my drinking wasn't that simple. I wish

53:48

it had been. What

53:50

do you want? Drinking was like a sort

53:52

of binge drinking of wanting

53:54

to go into an oblivion, wanting

53:57

to go into the darkest recesses whole, wanting

53:59

to deal with it. Disappear turning on myself

54:01

and disappear. I Isn't

54:03

wanting to go out and have a big dance and

54:05

a good time if it'd been that

54:08

simple I wouldn't stop you went further than that.

54:10

Yeah Definitely, and I drank

54:12

too much. What was your drink alone? What was

54:14

your tip line? white wine

54:17

Harmful is that a bad

54:19

one? Yeah, so I see the cake So if

54:21

you think your whole body's been like vinegar

54:24

marinated marinated in hate

54:26

and Desperation and

54:28

sort of like some sort of

54:31

psychological Terminal when

54:33

did you kick that in the head four

54:35

years ago because of the diagnosis? No, it

54:37

was a combination of things It was like

54:39

I couldn't drink because every time I sit

54:41

something it killed me because the cancer hurt

54:43

too much And then it was just like

54:46

got less and less and then about

54:48

in fact What's the

54:50

date today the 18th? Yeah,

54:53

18th of July. So

54:55

it was Four years

54:57

ago today. I had my

54:59

surgery And

55:02

four years ago on the 16th of July that

55:04

I had my last glass of champagne And

55:09

you haven't drank since I drink

55:11

this very very very low alcohol

55:13

thing and I sometimes have

55:15

angostura bitters and I drank This

55:19

is true. I drank a glass cider By

55:22

accident thinking it was 2% cider,

55:24

which is like chat and I

55:27

was really drunk But

55:29

to let go and lay down afterwards, that's the

55:31

only thing I've drank That's

55:33

like proper alcohol If

55:36

you only question, you know that Banksy question was

55:39

asked somewhat innocently I don't know if you're on

55:41

record as having said that you weren't a fan

55:43

No, I never said anything you've never commented on

55:45

his comment If there was something in art that

55:47

you feel like when is someone This

55:49

is what I would say about art okay

55:51

art has many rooms many

55:53

many rooms I mean that big

55:56

giant house with all those different rooms. There's

55:58

room for everybody room

56:00

for Banksy, there's room for Damien, there's room

56:02

for David Hockney, there's room

56:04

for Bridget Riley, there's room for

56:06

Francis Bacon, there's room for Edward

56:08

Monk, there's room everywhere. Every

56:11

time there isn't room, you just add another

56:13

room on and there they go. It's art.

56:15

Is there a room for AI-created art? Well,

56:21

thanks to robots, for

56:24

example, that's another reason why I'm still sitting

56:26

here. They took robots working on your surgery,

56:28

didn't they? Yeah. So if

56:30

I start slacking off AI and this and that,

56:32

then I've got to sort of think how big

56:34

the subject is and how useful it can work

56:36

or whatever. But I really don't,

56:39

in terms of art, AI

56:41

doesn't really sit well with me,

56:43

especially when I'm a compulsive, passionate,

56:46

hot-blooded person who paints. The idea

56:48

that right now in China, there's

56:50

some machine or some person painting,

56:53

my painting, drives me mad.

56:56

And what do you regard as the qualities that

56:58

art, when it's working, embodies?

57:02

I like art that's very emotional.

57:04

I like art that's not

57:08

necessarily pictorial, but more and

57:10

I like art that's expressive and

57:13

meaningful and I like art that's

57:15

often very difficult. And

57:17

so I don't necessarily hang that art on

57:19

my wall. I can't keep it in my

57:21

head constantly. So art is a thing that

57:23

I think about a lot as well as

57:25

a concept, as a way

57:28

of being, as a way of living. It's

57:30

not just necessarily something you hang on the

57:32

wall. It's like a vortex, something you go

57:34

through, like you go through it and you

57:37

come back the other side, especially when I'm

57:39

painting. So

57:41

it's like a place I go to, not

57:44

just the thing I do. Well,

57:46

look, if your energy's all right, should

57:48

we talk about your upbringing a tiny bit?

57:50

Yeah. I'm curious, you know, you've said that

57:53

you are unhappy.

57:55

In your book, Strangeland, you talk about

57:58

extraordinary scarring. experiences

58:00

growing up. I

58:02

mean it was a complicated

58:04

family situation wasn't it? Yeah. Was that

58:07

what's behind all of this? It's

58:09

not just poverty but it's... No

58:12

I think there's different things that

58:14

are behind his abandonment for example.

58:17

By your dad. And my

58:19

mum because my mum wasn't always around

58:22

and I think my mum and dad not

58:24

being married. My dad

58:27

having another family completely.

58:30

Not just another family but almost like his main

58:32

family it sounded like. He was married to... His

58:35

wife. His wife and he had like... how many kids?

58:37

Three. But he didn't he had lots of children. He had

58:39

about 20, 23 children. There were three with her. There were

58:41

two with your mum and then like 15 others. You

58:44

say they're the ones unofficial. Yeah, the unofficial.

58:46

So he says... Are you one to know

58:48

official or unofficial? Five official. He's got no...

58:52

What's the word? He's got no sense of

58:54

like embarrassment about it. No, yes. Quite proud

58:56

maybe. No, I don't think he's proud. I

58:58

just think it's just like I did it.

59:01

He wasn't gonna like try and

59:03

cover it up or whatever. Turkish

59:05

Cypriot businessman, right? Came to

59:07

the UK, met your mum. Where was the other family?

59:09

No, he wasn't a businessman. Well he had a hotel

59:11

didn't he? No, he came to the UK when he

59:13

was 22 and

59:15

he worked as a commie chef in the

59:18

Ritz Hotel. He was coming from

59:20

Cyprus to go to Australia and

59:22

he got off the boat here

59:25

and then he was getting

59:27

a boat to Australia and then his cousin

59:29

sent him a telegram saying, Eva,

59:31

you won't get in, your skin's too

59:33

dark. Because they had the white Sony

59:35

policy in Australia then. So then my

59:38

dad stayed in England. So

59:40

he wasn't married at this point? No, I

59:42

think he got married when

59:44

he was about 24 or something. He

59:47

went back to Cyprus, married his wife and then came back

59:49

to England with her. Then he meets your mum at a

59:51

certain point? I met my mum in 1958. 1958? Yeah. And

59:57

he got married I think. This is quite a few years later

59:59

then. 10 years or so later,

1:00:01

yeah. Just in terms of how did

1:00:03

it work, how did he divide his time between his wife

1:00:06

and your mum? We always say

1:00:08

he spent three days with my mum, three days with his

1:00:10

wife and one day somewhere else. Tom

1:00:12

Cating. That's what we always used to say,

1:00:14

yeah. But look, I

1:00:16

love my dad. He must have been very attractive.

1:00:18

Yeah, he was. He was charismatic, he dressed good,

1:00:20

he was an interesting person. But

1:00:23

my dad and my mum were

1:00:26

unusual people and they,

1:00:29

you know, when I was about six,

1:00:32

seven at school, people's parents were getting divorced and

1:00:34

it was like a big deal. I remember it.

1:00:37

And then my parents never got married. So

1:00:39

to me, things like that didn't matter. I

1:00:42

can probably remember the time, count the

1:00:44

times as a family, we sat down

1:00:46

at dinner, with my mum and my

1:00:48

dad. I only have like maybe four

1:00:50

photographs of us all together. We

1:00:53

didn't have a family situation like that. It

1:00:55

wasn't like that. You said your mum abandoned

1:00:58

you. She didn't abandon me, she went away.

1:01:01

She went away a few times. Went away where? She

1:01:05

went off to Turkey once with a young lover.

1:01:07

That was interesting. And she... She

1:01:10

liked the Turkish fellas. It

1:01:12

wasn't that simple. My mum

1:01:14

liked exciting things. My

1:01:17

mum felt like her

1:01:19

life should have been a lot different, but

1:01:21

it wasn't. So... She

1:01:24

was very proud of you. Yeah.

1:01:26

So was my dad. So was my brother. So...

1:01:29

Does your brother like the art? I only mentioned

1:01:31

because he made one of those classic, oh, it's

1:01:34

a line of albollocks, isn't it, comments? In

1:01:36

2000... Got your memory. In

1:01:39

1999, in Mad Tracy from Margate, the documentary, I think

1:01:41

it is. It might be somewhere else. Yeah, I know

1:01:43

that. He interviewed him, he goes like, oh, if you

1:01:45

could get away with it, fair play. But

1:01:47

come on, it's a load of old bollocks. But that was 25

1:01:49

years ago, whatever. 26 years... Whatever.

1:01:53

What would he say now? He'd say he's really proud

1:01:55

of me, and he's seen... He understands it much more,

1:01:57

the work. And I think, like, let's...

1:04:00

You know, sex for

1:04:02

me was an adventure. I

1:04:04

really thought I was going on an adventure every time

1:04:06

I said sex. Did you think you were enjoying it?

1:04:08

Yeah, some of it, or Wilfus. You

1:04:11

know, that's the truth. But

1:04:13

it's not necessarily a good, I mean, it's

1:04:15

not a good thing. When I see like

1:04:17

girls now, I sort of think, oh my

1:04:19

God, you know, I was that age. And

1:04:22

how could anybody at the age of 25

1:04:24

want to sleep with me? There's one where there's a bloke

1:04:26

who pushes you in the back of his van. He's got

1:04:29

a mattress in it. He didn't push me in the back

1:04:31

of his van. He didn't push me

1:04:33

in the... He didn't push you, he invited you.

1:04:35

No, I actually had a relationship with him, not

1:04:37

a sexual relationship with him for quite a long

1:04:39

time. Although that's not clear from the, I read

1:04:41

that later, but that's not clear from the account

1:04:43

in the book. And he has

1:04:45

sex with you. I think you say that, can I say, you

1:04:47

think you say you fucked me

1:04:50

furiously. And then afterwards I thought

1:04:52

that's the best sex I've ever had. Yeah,

1:04:54

House 14. And he

1:04:56

was what, 22? Yeah. I

1:05:00

often wonder what ever happened to him. What

1:05:03

about this one? Are you comfortable with me doing this?

1:05:05

Go on. I've got your book in my hand, but

1:05:08

she's looking at Harry. No,

1:05:10

this one shocked me. What

1:05:13

is it? What, you tell me which bit

1:05:15

am I going to read? No, it's here,

1:05:17

right? This is really important. Context is everything.

1:05:19

Yeah. So someone quietly

1:05:21

sitting at home reading my book after reading the

1:05:23

whole book is a lot different from on a

1:05:25

podcast, you just reading out one paragraph. It's true.

1:05:28

I don't have to read it. And so it's

1:05:30

out of context. It could very well be. It's

1:05:32

out of context because the only context is me

1:05:34

reading on a podcast. So what

1:05:36

are we going to do about that? I don't know. Harry's

1:05:38

going, go on. I always cut it out. When I read

1:05:40

it, then you can decide. Okay, go on then. I

1:05:43

was in a relationship once, some years ago now, when

1:05:45

for three years I was never kissed, never held. Not

1:05:49

only was I mentally abused, but almost every night

1:05:51

I was subjected to anal sex. That

1:05:54

was the closest I got to any kind of physical

1:05:56

affection. Thank

1:05:58

you. That's not

1:06:00

that shocking. I think

1:06:03

there's probably a lot of people. A

1:06:06

lot of people have been like, have

1:06:08

to deal with stuff like that. That's

1:06:10

what happens in life, isn't it? That's

1:06:12

not shocking. That's sad. Maybe

1:06:15

it's both. I don't think

1:06:17

it's that shocking. I think it happens to a lot

1:06:19

of people. I think... Because you loved him. Yeah,

1:06:22

I thought I did. Whenever

1:06:25

you're in a relationship that's coercive or

1:06:27

abusive or whatever, you don't see it

1:06:30

at the time. You can't

1:06:32

see it. That's part of the abuse. That's

1:06:34

quite obvious. You talk about

1:06:36

getting... I mean, it goes on to describe the physical

1:06:39

repercussions, like having piles, infections,

1:06:41

all this kind of thing. Next

1:06:45

time you will unto you again, when we're

1:06:47

really old, I'm going to read everything I

1:06:50

can about you. And I'm going to scrutinise

1:06:52

your life every little bit. That

1:06:55

would be a dream. Do an artwork about it. No,

1:06:58

but it is seriously. When someone's

1:07:01

done as much research as you

1:07:03

have, it's good to be interviewed

1:07:05

by someone that makes me nervous. Because I have

1:07:07

to really think about what you're saying. And then

1:07:09

that means I'm really thinking about me and then

1:07:11

thinking about my life. And then

1:07:13

now you just made me feel a

1:07:16

little bit sad. Did I?

1:07:19

I'm sorry. Yeah, I've got to admit,

1:07:21

I never read that book anymore.

1:07:24

It's an extraordinary book,

1:07:26

extraordinary level of

1:07:28

self lacerating self revelation. And

1:07:31

what I think is brilliant about it, which

1:07:34

I think is common to a lot of your art, is that you

1:07:37

actually don't use a lot of terms

1:07:40

that are loaded with judgment. You present what

1:07:42

happened and you allow the reader to be

1:07:44

shocked or not shocked. Does that make sense?

1:07:46

A bit like we were talking about paintings

1:07:49

and things. Yeah, but it's also a

1:07:51

bit like me and it's a bit like my work.

1:07:53

So it's like you trying to make

1:07:55

me, not make me say things, but

1:07:58

give a judgment on certain things we've

1:08:00

talked about. or whatever. That's not our

1:08:02

function. That's not how I do it.

1:08:04

Nately, I'm not a bad person. I

1:08:06

don't want to be negative about things

1:08:08

or people or whatever, because

1:08:10

honestly, I swear to God, life is

1:08:13

too short. And at the moment, touch

1:08:16

with things are a little bit calmer. And I

1:08:18

want to hold on to that. So I can

1:08:20

concentrate on the painting, doing the good things and

1:08:22

be more positive and enjoy

1:08:24

life and enjoy the

1:08:26

difficult things in life too and deal

1:08:28

with them properly, like having cancer or

1:08:30

like having bowels that don't work properly

1:08:32

or my everyday life, but I mean,

1:08:34

pain quite a lot of time. So

1:08:36

I don't want to,

1:08:38

on top of that, have to deal with all these.

1:08:41

I'm not saying I want an easy life because I

1:08:43

don't have one, but I'm

1:08:45

really focused on making things more positive now. And

1:08:47

I've got to try and keep that way because

1:08:49

I don't want cancer to come back. I don't

1:08:51

want the negativity to come back. Oh God, I

1:08:54

think I've just given you cancer. I think that's

1:08:56

what you're saying. I just gave

1:08:58

you, I just bought your cancer back, didn't I?

1:09:00

You made me smile now.

1:09:02

That was the subtext. No, but you understand

1:09:04

what I'm saying. I'm so sorry. No, don't

1:09:06

say that. You know what I'm saying though,

1:09:08

about the negative, about negative, vast amounts of

1:09:10

negativity, obviously, I'm not going to be good

1:09:12

for anybody in any situation. How did you,

1:09:14

because on paper, that upbringing could

1:09:17

have gone south, could have gone really

1:09:19

bad. And I know there was a lot of bad stuff, but

1:09:22

when you look back, what was it that enabled

1:09:24

you to rise out of that? Art.

1:09:28

I stopped going to school when I was 13,

1:09:30

and then by law, I had to go back

1:09:32

when I was 14, 14 and a half. There's

1:09:34

a thing called a WW13, and it's

1:09:36

like social services are coming to get you if

1:09:38

you don't go to school three days a week.

1:09:41

I went three days a week and I

1:09:44

did art almost every day. And

1:09:47

doing the art three days a week at that age,

1:09:49

14, 15, meant that

1:09:51

the time when your brain is most

1:09:53

fluid and you're taking everything in, I

1:09:56

was taking art in and making art.

1:09:59

And that was really lucky. at the moment.

1:10:01

So you had a passion to do it,

1:10:03

but you also had a place where that

1:10:05

passion was allowed to flourish. I

1:10:09

think we're getting close. What do you think? Was this stuff that,

1:10:11

can I mention a couple of things quickly? Just gonna check that,

1:10:14

but I feel we've covered a lot of ground. Banksy,

1:10:18

no, just kidding. Bowie,

1:10:22

we didn't talk Bowie. He was

1:10:24

a fan of yours. Obviously you were a fan of his.

1:10:26

He was a friend of mine. He was a friend. Was

1:10:29

he married to Iman at that point? So

1:10:32

romance wasn't on the cards. No. That'd

1:10:34

be a good scoop. That'd be brilliant. If you wanna

1:10:36

go there, I'm ready. No. Was there

1:10:39

any chemistry? Yes, lots of chemistry. We got

1:10:41

on really well. An attractive man. Yep. And

1:10:44

I was very attractive. And

1:10:46

we were very, very good friends. Was electricity

1:10:48

flowing back and forth between you? Creative

1:10:50

electricity, yeah, definitely. Did you collaborate? No, he

1:10:52

wanted to do a song with me, but

1:10:55

I couldn't sing. I can't sing. And

1:10:57

he said, I've got a song you can sing. I know

1:10:59

a song that you can sing. I've got one. I've written

1:11:01

one. That would have been amazing. And I never did it.

1:11:04

I know. I can't sing. I'm not doing that. I should

1:11:06

have done it. It would have been good fun, but I

1:11:08

didn't. So. All

1:11:10

right, here's the last one. Cause we're wrapping things up. Unless, you

1:11:12

know, I can keep going. I don't wanna take the piss though,

1:11:14

as they say. Well,

1:11:16

so we were talking about, cause I wanna be positive. In

1:11:19

one of your first pieces, actually in a book you

1:11:21

wrote called Six Turkish Tales in 1987, in

1:11:25

the front of species, a quotation from Edvard Munch.

1:11:29

Did you remember what it was? I shouldn't

1:11:31

like to be without suffering. How

1:11:33

much of my art I owe to suffering?

1:11:36

Right? So there's that. But

1:11:39

then at the same time, you've

1:11:41

said something like, if I could

1:11:44

avoid all my emotional volatility, I'd

1:11:46

give up all my art for that. Yeah, I think

1:11:48

I probably said that in around, when

1:11:51

I was probably at a

1:11:53

very low ebb. I probably just

1:11:56

had enough of it all then. That's

1:11:58

not your final position. No, definitely

1:12:00

not because because it things go full

1:12:02

circle don't make the site like

1:12:05

so people commit suicide usually do it

1:12:07

for chemical reasons You

1:12:10

know Not emotional reasons

1:12:13

because everyone gets sad everyone gets fucked over

1:12:15

everyone gets sad everyone but they don't all

1:12:17

go and throw themselves off a bridge, right

1:12:19

and I always

1:12:21

have this thing that if you can just

1:12:23

get through it just get through it Just

1:12:25

get through that last little bit and you

1:12:27

come out the other side. You're gonna be

1:12:29

okay. You are gonna be okay You

1:12:32

are and I think with

1:12:34

me in my life when I thought really low

1:12:36

I'm really like at my

1:12:38

lowest ebb or whatever really bad I

1:12:41

just hold on a little bit and

1:12:43

everything turns around everything comes back to

1:12:45

fruition everything Is

1:12:48

you know worth living for it's just

1:12:51

about having the strength and the

1:12:53

confidence To just hang in and

1:12:55

keep going it sounds so corny But I

1:12:57

know that definitely now after the cancer because

1:12:59

if I'd have given up when I had

1:13:01

cancer just thought I'm gonna die I probably

1:13:03

would have died but I

1:13:05

didn't and I wouldn't Part of

1:13:07

me just said no, you just keep going on

1:13:10

you just keep going and here I still am

1:13:13

So I'm not complaining what I'm

1:13:15

doing is using the stuff that

1:13:17

I've had as material as a

1:13:19

cathartic thing to keep going Keep

1:13:22

myself going And

1:13:24

and not be ashamed with it and understand

1:13:26

that this is my life and I've got

1:13:28

I've lived it I'm living it So

1:13:31

any mistakes that I've made or things that

1:13:33

I've said or things that I've done when

1:13:35

I was younger. I did them The

1:13:38

important thing is not to do

1:13:40

them again to understand why I did them You

1:13:43

know life should get better not worse. That's

1:13:46

the thing to keep going for How

1:13:50

is your health now like your prognosis do you

1:13:52

keep going back and checking and what's what did

1:13:54

they say? I have to check every six months

1:13:57

But my last one was really good. So I've

1:14:01

got another year to go. Then

1:14:03

I'm like five years. If

1:14:05

I go for five years, that's really amazing.

1:14:07

That's a big landmark. Yeah, it's massive. Milestone.

1:14:09

Mm-hmm. Cool.

1:14:11

Thanks so much, Tracy. That's okay. I expected

1:14:13

something a little bit more raucous or a

1:14:16

bit more, I don't know. It's

1:14:18

been very calm. Raucous?

1:14:21

I've listened to lots of your podcasts.

1:14:23

Keep that bit in. You

1:14:26

haven't listened to it. I think you mentioned that when we

1:14:29

were at the palace. Yeah, you were surprised. I've listened to

1:14:31

nearly all of them and I love

1:14:33

them. They're really good. There

1:14:35

was a moment where I thought you were drawing me and I

1:14:37

was like, oh my God, she's going to do a drawing on

1:14:39

me. No. That would be amazing.

1:14:41

If you did a doodle of me right, like, I'm

1:14:44

not going to walk off with this, obviously, I'm holding a piece

1:14:46

of art. But if I walked

1:14:48

off with that, would it be worth thousands

1:14:51

and thousands? Oh, we'd call the police, actually,

1:14:54

yeah. You wouldn't say that. I think you took something

1:14:56

by accident. No, we'd get you arrested.

1:14:58

Jeez, you've really gone to the other side. Yeah, we get

1:15:00

you locked up in... Gone to the dark side. No, we're

1:15:02

going to get you locked up in Margate police station. If

1:15:04

you saw, I'm holding a card,

1:15:07

like an index card, like watercolour paper and

1:15:09

it's got a drawing, a painting. So is

1:15:11

it, what is it, watercolour? Yeah,

1:15:13

good. So if I, I'm not going to steal

1:15:15

it, obviously. No, you're not. But if I did

1:15:18

steal it and I tried to sell it, how

1:15:20

much would it go for? That's

1:15:22

a hand-painted Tracy Airman.

1:15:24

But you're holding in your hand just for the people

1:15:26

that can't see it. So cavalierly, it'd be more than

1:15:29

10,000 easily. It's

1:15:32

not really fair to talk about the

1:15:35

value of things like that, because

1:15:37

it's like the price of everything, the

1:15:39

value of nothing. That's

1:15:45

right. Well, that's an old, let's ask a

1:15:47

while, is it? Or someone originally said it. Yeah,

1:15:49

yeah, yeah, no, but he said it yesterday.

1:15:51

So I remembered it. You know,

1:15:53

it's like what I do

1:15:55

with my art is this

1:15:58

is all I've ever done is made art. It's

1:16:00

all I've ever done. So

1:16:02

you value it. You put a

1:16:04

price on it like that. It's been very

1:16:06

crass. Yeah. It's my life. Art

1:16:09

is something sacred. And as

1:16:12

pretentious as that might sound to some

1:16:14

people, it's true to me. And

1:16:17

I live my life doing what I do because

1:16:19

I believe in it. And also do

1:16:21

a lot of good with it now. Turn

1:16:24

it around. Yeah. Giving back. Yeah,

1:16:28

I should start giving back. Yeah,

1:16:30

maybe I keep meaning to it and I just

1:16:32

get around to it. I can't seem to

1:16:34

get around to it. All right, cool. Thank you.

1:16:37

Thank you. All right, guys. Hi,

1:16:49

it's me. I'm back. Louis Theroux. I

1:16:51

hope you enjoyed that. I did. What

1:16:53

a pleasure to speak to someone who

1:16:56

is, well, just been

1:16:58

through extraordinary things and we'll talk about

1:17:00

them. And

1:17:03

if you want more of that, check out

1:17:05

Strangeland her book. It's

1:17:07

level of excoriating, self

1:17:09

eviscerating. I mean, just

1:17:12

hideous detail is

1:17:14

off the charts. So if you have an appetite for that,

1:17:17

which I do, you will

1:17:19

find it utterly transfixing, you know,

1:17:22

obviously in a dark and highly

1:17:25

traumatizing way. I

1:17:28

have to be careful because if

1:17:30

someone opens the door slightly on harrowing

1:17:33

sort of abjection,

1:17:36

self-sabotaging and kind of

1:17:39

self-destructive behavior, then I'll stride through

1:17:41

that. And so I

1:17:44

kind of have to be reigned in a little bit. I hope it

1:17:46

came across OK. And

1:17:50

Tracy's now in a very different place, obviously.

1:17:52

And you can tell whether

1:17:54

it's because of growing up or because of

1:17:56

her health situation, she's resistant to dwelling

1:17:58

in the dark places. important

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