0:00

The

0:00

views expressed in this episode as with

0:02

all episodes of sounds like a cult are

0:04

solely host opinions and quoted allegations.

0:07

The content here should not be taken as indisputable

0:10

This podcast is for entertainment purposes

0:12

only.

0:13

What did I do to because you've been

0:15

manipulating all of us and using

0:17

your daughter's Avaya Yes.

0:19

Are you crazy? Are you crazy?

0:26

This is sounds like a cult. A show about

0:29

the modern day cults, we all follow.

0:31

I'm Amanda Montel, author of the cultish,

0:33

the language of fan artism. I'm Isa Modena,

0:35

and I'm a comedian. Every week on

0:37

our show, we discuss a different zeitgeisty

0:40

group that puts the cult in culture from

0:42

celebrity doctors to Starbucks to

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try and answer the big question. This

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group sounds like a cult, but isn't really?

0:49

To join our cult and see culty memes

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and BTS pics, follow us on Instagram

0:54

at sounds like a cult. Pod. I

0:56

feel funny promoting my Instagram on this

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episode, but I am in the cult of Instagram

1:00

and you can find me there at Amanda underscore

1:03

monto. You could also find me on Instagram

1:05

at isaoudina ISAAMDIMAA

1:09

And I also am in the cult of Instagram, but

1:11

things we don't have

1:12

as many followers. Amanda.

1:13

So if you guys wanna give me a

1:15

follow, that would be amazing. And feel free

1:17

to check us out on YouTube where you can watch

1:19

our show or hit us up on patreon at

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patreon dot com slash sounds like a cult.

1:23

And there are episodes are available ad

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free. Or are you trying to accuse

1:28

me of being an Instagram cult leader? Because

1:30

if so, I'm flattered. Yeah.

1:32

You are the Instagram cult

1:34

leader. Thank you. You're welcome. I

1:36

would actually argue that the Instagram

1:39

cult leader is the subject of

1:41

today's episode because we're talking about

1:43

the cult of the Kardashians.

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3:20

So you might think that this is one of our more

3:22

lighthearted episodes, but you'd be wrong.

3:24

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Eight got

3:27

pretty intense in our

3:29

interview with our guest. With our guest,

3:31

we're going to interview Megan Durti.

3:33

She's a writer and comedian, and we got really

3:36

in the weeds

3:36

of, like,

3:37

why the Kardashians are

3:40

evil or good. And

3:42

it turned into this whole conversation about capitalism.

3:45

This is the entire thesis

3:47

of our show. Right? Is that we're talking

3:49

about groups that we all affiliate

3:52

with on some level, but actually do

3:54

have these more sinister ties

3:56

to deeper cultish aspects

3:59

of the culture, whether it's politics or

4:01

beauty standards or sex

4:03

And I feel like the reason we ended up

4:05

going so big picture, like ultimately

4:08

ended up talking about capitalism

4:10

was because the Kardashians have such

4:12

a large influence that their umbrella

4:15

covers everything. I mean, they're just are

4:18

so fucking many of them. Yeah.

4:20

That's true. I mean, for one, like,

4:22

immediate family, they

4:24

are basketball team. Seriously.

4:27

I mean, if we're talking about sort of, like,

4:29

cult like media families, The

4:31

one that instantly springs to mind for me

4:33

is the Duggars, the subject of

4:35

that that TLC reality

4:37

show, like, twelve kids and counting, thirteen

4:39

kids and counting. The Kardashians are

4:41

just like a really, really mainstream

4:44

version of that. The Duggars

4:46

belong to a fringy Christian

4:48

sect called the quiverfuls But you

4:50

could argue that the general influence that

4:52

the Kardashian has had over our

4:54

beauty standards, over the way that we interact

4:57

with each other, over the way that we interact

4:59

with influencers and brands and celebrities

5:01

is a religion in and of itself. Yeah. I

5:03

mean, even over the way that we speak.

5:05

Oh my god. yet. It's crazy. You'll

5:07

have to stay tuned for the interview because there is

5:10

a moment when ESA, a little bit

5:12

goes to bat for the Kardashians I

5:14

do wanna preface this episode by

5:16

saying I did kind

5:18

of give myself the role of

5:20

devil's avocado, which is what we're gonna

5:22

call it because I do not by names ever want

5:24

to be a devil's advocate. I'm

5:26

a devil's avocados, and it's for the

5:28

sake of the podcast. I wanted to make sure that

5:30

we were looking at all sides of the argument

5:32

because I feel like Kardashians especially

5:35

are this group of influencers

5:37

who were constantly talked about.

5:39

And it's -- And Shat on. -- and Shat on

5:41

and it's usually on, like, one

5:44

side of the spectrum. People

5:46

either hate them or they love them. And so I was

5:48

like, let's have a nuanced discussion

5:50

about We're not at all trying

5:52

to shit on the Kardashians just for

5:54

the sake of it. I mean, sure, I have

5:56

intuitions that I destain

5:58

them and refuse to watch

6:00

their shows and engage with them.

6:03

But this is not a podcast

6:05

about intuition. This is a podcast

6:07

about analysis, and we're trying to

6:09

understand where those intuitions about

6:11

this is a cult even come from? Where

6:13

do they stem from? Yeah. and I do

6:15

watch their shows. I feel like we have to get that

6:17

out there. Okay. Well, actually, I

6:19

never watched keeping up with the Kardashians,

6:22

but I did watch their latest

6:24

show on Hulu. And then I was, like, running around

6:26

being, like, oh my god. Kim is such a

6:28

boss. Yeah. Go off. And

6:30

then I was talking about it with Meg

6:32

and she, like, went off

6:34

on me on, like, all the reasons that they're bad and

6:36

I was, like, we have to talk about this.

6:38

Yeah. You and Meg are friends offline. real

6:40

life friend. Real life. We had been planning

6:42

to do this show already than our loyalists.

6:45

We're like, yeah, you absolutely have to do

6:47

the cult of the Kardashians. Kohl's spelled with a k

6:49

obviously. And you were like, I'm

6:51

bringing Meg because the second I started defending

6:53

Kim, she was like, they are toneless

6:55

billionaires who've appropriated

6:58

every culture to build their own cloud. They are

7:00

suddenly having the most destructive influence

7:02

over our entire culture, and I was like, yes.

7:04

Go up. Yeah. actually, now that I think

7:06

about it, I'm underthing a

7:08

repressed memory. That's a teal swan reference.

7:11

No. I'm underthing a repressed memory that I actually

7:13

too have sort of inadvertently defended the Kardashians

7:16

because in my first book, I go to bat for

7:18

vocal fry, which is this vocal quality.

7:20

That vocal quality is more often

7:22

than not associated with the Kardashians

7:25

style of sort of, like, plaza valley

7:27

gourlious delivery. Yeah. And

7:29

I take issue with that because there is nothing

7:31

inherently bad about vocal fry just

7:33

because it happens to be noticed in the speech of

7:35

young women. There's a lot of shit wrong

7:37

with the Kardashians, but it just doesn't have

7:39

to do with vocal fry. That's

7:41

true. That's the least of their problems. There

7:43

are a lot of different sides to the

7:45

cult of Kardashian story.

7:48

And we got sort of big picture

7:50

in this episode. there were some nitty

7:52

gritty elements that we know exist, that we

7:54

didn't have time to touch on. So if there's enough

7:56

interest, we might do a part two. Yeah. We

7:58

just wanna say, like, right

7:59

upfront. There's no way we could

8:02

cover every single aspect. We would have

8:04

had to do, like,

8:04

documentary style research and we

8:07

just, like, haven't had the time. But if

8:09

you guys have anything else you

8:11

think, like, we need to look into more deeply.

8:13

Like, if you think there's, like, one subtle,

8:15

salty aspect of the Kardashians, then

8:17

gammas or common color. our posts

8:19

and we'll do as part two. And that's true of

8:21

every topic we cover because

8:23

these topics could lend themselves to

8:26

an entire twelve episode series

8:28

in and of themselves and we wanna

8:30

make sure that we're covering what is interesting

8:32

to the people. Yeah.

8:35

feel like it's nice to

8:36

define who we're talking about at first, but we're talking about

8:39

the Kardashians. It's like the Kardashian Jenner

8:41

family.

8:41

So it's like Chris, Kim, Chloe,

8:44

Courtney, Kiley

8:45

and Kendall.

8:46

This is another way that they're like the

8:49

Duggars because the Duggars

8:50

kids all have j names Joanna

8:53

and Josiah. I mean,

8:56

it is famously culty to

8:58

name all of your children things that start

9:00

with the same level. Yeah. And then there's Rob.

9:01

who,

9:03

like, really isn't very

9:06

active in the cult. So if you don't know their

9:08

brother Rob was named after the Kardashian

9:11

family patriarch their father, Robert

9:13

Kardashian, who was a powerful lawyer in

9:15

Hollywood, best known for representing

9:17

OJ Simpson in that

9:19

infamous murder trial we all know

9:21

about. So the family has always sort of been

9:23

steeped in controversy. Robert, the father,

9:25

passed away in two thousand three, but the

9:27

Kardashian family's intense rise

9:29

to fame really goes back to a sex tape

9:31

of Kims that was leaked around that same time

9:33

period. Kim was pretty

9:35

much a no name at that point, but she

9:37

was friends with Paris Hilton one point,

9:39

she was even her assistant, and she really

9:41

aspired to be a socialite like

9:43

her. And thanks to the leadership

9:45

of their mother, their momager,

9:47

Chris Gener, the family has marketed the living

9:49

shit out of themselves in the years

9:51

since. They've launched various businesses

9:53

and partnerships and now the

9:55

collective family is worth over

9:57

two billion dollars. Chris

10:00

seriously capitalized on that sex

10:02

tape attention, and it should be noted that

10:04

keeping up with the Kardashians premier dong e

10:07

only eight months after that

10:09

whole scandal, which honestly, like, way

10:11

to make lemonade out of lemons.

10:14

It's diabolical and in a

10:16

sense you have to respect it. First question that

10:18

I think we should talk about really quickly

10:20

before we talk to our guest is like,

10:22

who do you think is in the cult of the

10:24

Kardashians? Like, do you think it's just those five

10:26

girls and the mom? Or do you think

10:28

like it's the whole family? Or do you think it's everyone

10:30

on the like we often describe.

10:32

I think there are cults within cults here.

10:34

And I think everyone who's born

10:36

into this family is Autumn ematically

10:40

inducted into this call held

10:42

to a beauty standard expected

10:44

to be public facing. I mean,

10:46

the kids, it will be interesting to see what

10:48

becomes of them. Like, will they

10:50

defect in twenty years and be like, I was

10:52

super fucked up, like, an exscientologist? while

10:55

they become leaders themselves. Yeah. We don't

10:57

know when it's it is one of those situations where,

10:59

like, people have asked us do we think, like, toxic

11:01

families or cults? And I feel

11:03

like, I don't know. That's not for me

11:05

to say because it depends on the family.

11:07

Like, your parents obviously control your

11:09

finances. They control where you live.

11:12

But some You literally need them. You

11:14

literally need them. You're literally a minor.

11:16

But something that is new is like

11:18

the lack of consent to become like a

11:20

public figure. privacy is something

11:22

that you literally cannot take

11:24

back and these kids are

11:26

born without privacy. I think that's

11:28

of that family members have actually brings up an

11:30

interesting point about who the true cult

11:32

leader of the Kardashians is

11:34

because We talk

11:36

about Kim a lot with our guests, but I

11:38

actually think it's Chris,

11:40

the mom. Like, she's

11:42

in my honest opinion the true

11:44

sort of narcissist puppet master

11:46

of the whole operation. I mean, she's

11:48

not only like queen b

11:50

momager vibes. She's also constantly

11:53

pressuring all of her kids to procreate as

11:55

much as possible, like spinning

11:57

every precious life moment

11:59

into a

11:59

monetizable commodity, which

12:02

is so fucking cult leader ish.

12:04

Yeah. And I also think that as the

12:06

conformity of their k

12:08

names suggests, the women born

12:10

into the Kardashians play a more

12:12

extreme role in the family cult than the

12:14

men. And that is a trope like women

12:16

in classic cults are often held to

12:18

a more repressive standard

12:20

and expected to do more labor to recruit people

12:22

into the fold. Here's a classic cult moment

12:24

for you in the children of

12:26

God. often referred to as a

12:28

sort of Christian sex cult of the nineteen

12:30

seventies era, women were expected to

12:32

engage in something

12:32

called flirty fishing, where

12:35

they'd be

12:35

coerced to lure men they'd meet

12:37

out in the wild into the cult by

12:39

having sex with them. So bear with me making

12:41

this connection, but to a less

12:43

explicit degree, the women in the

12:45

Kardashians are also expected

12:47

to use their sexuality. to

12:49

attract fans in a way that Rob

12:51

is not. Polastic.

12:57

There's definitely the the cult of the

12:59

family itself. And then

13:02

there's

13:02

the cult of all of their followers

13:05

and supporters and viewers,

13:08

even people who don't

13:10

follow or watch the show or anything

13:12

like that are implicitly in

13:14

the cult of the Kardashians because they

13:16

have suddenly and not so subtly

13:18

shaped culture in such a

13:20

radical fucked up

13:22

way. Yeah. I think the people

13:24

that are at the most dangerous

13:26

part of the cult are people who are

13:28

part of the extended family. Oh, part

13:30

family member, part followers. Yeah.

13:32

And these people who the

13:34

family takes a liking to and they start

13:36

inviting them to the Christmas parties and to the

13:38

holidays. And they are

13:40

also influencers and

13:42

therefore their life and

13:44

their income and their worth and their

13:47

worth comes from the family. And

13:49

then, like, if you're kicked out of that,

13:51

you no longer have, like, an

13:53

income revenue. unless you, like, have

13:54

built your platform enough yourself. One

13:56

example is Jordan Woods, one of

13:58

Kylie's

13:58

ex best friends who

13:59

was involved in a cheating scandal with

14:02

Chloe's ex husband, Tristan.

14:05

And even though Jordan did make a

14:07

mistake, the Kardashians were over the

14:09

top vengeful about it used every

14:11

little bit of their power to try and

14:13

silence her. I think it's just so

14:15

insanely culty how betraying this

14:17

family on any level big or small

14:19

could ruin your life. At low key

14:21

reminds me of exscientologist.

14:28

It

14:31

really is so powerful

14:34

when any celebrity at

14:36

all sort

14:36

of in vice you to bathe in

14:38

the glow of their light. I know,

14:40

like,

14:41

three half famous people, and

14:43

I myself feel like blessed

14:46

when I get to go hang out with them

14:48

because their gravity is just

14:50

so compelling and it really draws you in and

14:52

you really do feel chosen. Yeah.

14:55

and the Kardashians being some

14:57

of the most famous people alive,

14:59

their gravity is like that

15:01

of a black hole. You know?

15:03

I myself knowing people

15:05

who are, like, don't

15:07

quote me on this math but, like, one one

15:09

bajillion as famous as the Kardashians.

15:12

I already feel like there would be exit costs if

15:15

I stop talking those people. You know what I

15:17

mean? I would have exit costs if you

15:19

stop talking to those people. Something

15:21

else that I think is really culty

15:23

is their legal influence because

15:26

of their money. They have so much power to

15:28

take things offline. Like,

15:30

do you remember when that picture

15:33

of Chloe Kardashian was

15:35

unedited, got online because her grandma

15:37

accidentally posted it. Yeah. Yeah. Her bikini

15:39

pick that hadn't been facetuned. Yeah.

15:41

Her lawyers literally

15:43

got it scrubbed from the Internet

15:45

in twenty twenty one.

15:47

Like, how much money and power and

15:49

influence do you have to have to be able to get something

15:51

scrubbed from the Internet? So imagine

15:54

being their friend or being their family

15:56

friend, like, you are friends with

15:58

someone who has, like, the power to end you.

15:59

Dude, a hundred percent. So the

16:02

exit costs

16:02

are sky high. I keep making these

16:05

celestial references, but I feel like it's the

16:07

only way to communicate the stakes

16:09

and the magnitude of the

16:11

power that Kardashian clan

16:13

with the kind of holds. Yeah. You

16:15

know, like, because it's not just one

16:18

person. It is this dynasty.

16:20

And what's also terrifying

16:22

is how quickly they were able

16:24

to build it. Like, this isn't

16:26

old money necessarily. Like, they started

16:28

off with They started off wealthy, but this

16:30

isn't, like, I don't know. Some sort

16:32

of political cult that has

16:34

roots that go back, you know, two hundred,

16:36

three hundred, five hundred years.

16:38

This is new money baby.

16:40

And the fact that they were able

16:42

to just augment their

16:45

collective wealth, not only wealth, but

16:48

influence on the masses so

16:50

quickly like who knows where

16:52

our culture will be in ten, twenty years

16:54

because of them. They've built that wealth so

16:56

quickly. And I think that's why they kind of have like

16:58

these these big egos and these

17:00

big heads that kind of lead them to have

17:02

this us versus them mentality of

17:04

like fuck with my family or I'm

17:06

gonna fuck with you. Like, they see that

17:08

on the show all the

17:10

time. How does this family still

17:12

keep all these guys around. Like, once you're

17:14

in, it's like the mob, you can't

17:16

get out. We have

17:19

a very loyal strong vibe in

17:21

our family. Yeah. And this is something

17:23

else that's quite salty about them is that

17:25

they create this illusion of

17:28

populism. Like, I'm just like you. I

17:30

really care about family. I was watching

17:32

a video the other day analyzing the

17:34

diets on the show Gilmore Girls.

17:36

Don't ask. I was an

17:38

algorithm thing. person making that video, a nutritionist, was

17:41

talking about how oftentimes

17:43

people on screen will eat in

17:45

order to humanize themselves because we

17:47

all have to and I feel like the

17:49

Kardashians on their show

17:51

do things that like regular humans do.

17:53

They get into fights with their siblings. It's like

17:55

celebrities. They're just like you. Like,

17:57

they are imperfect and they create

17:59

that illusion which is very

18:02

strategic to mask the fact

18:04

that they're nothing like the rest

18:06

of us. we shall we'll

18:08

get a hotdog, honestly. You and I

18:11

I wonder

18:11

if they have, like, those arguments because,

18:13

like, at the of the day they are running a business

18:15

together. Of course, they're gonna be like us

18:18

versus them, but I bet

18:20

you

18:20

they have arguments internally about

18:22

like how much they're getting paid or how much airtime.

18:24

I mean, their final season of

18:27

keeping up

18:27

with the Kardashians didn't watch it, but I did see

18:29

a lot of clip on TikTok. Yeah. I've never

18:31

seen it either. Was it reviews? I did

18:34

watch the new one as we know. But the

18:36

old one ended because Courtney

18:38

was done with the show. She was, I wanna

18:40

live my life and I don't wanna do it in front of the

18:42

cameras anymore. And now they're all

18:44

executive producers on the show so they

18:46

all get to decide like how the show is edited

18:48

to make them each look

18:50

good. Oh my god. But I bet

18:52

you Kendall is barely in

18:54

the show and Kylie isn't in the

18:56

show at all. So they probably get paid

18:58

like different amounts of money. I wonder

19:00

how close you can really feel to your

19:02

family members when like your making

19:04

money off of that. This whole episode just

19:06

kept reminding me of succession. Yeah. You

19:08

know, it's like the family on succession

19:10

creates this public image that everybody's like,

19:13

hunky dory or at least they try to. But

19:15

behind those doors, they're going for the

19:17

jugular. Yeah. And you have to

19:19

speculate allegedly allegedly allegedly

19:21

allegedly. You have to speculate

19:23

that it has to get

19:24

bloody back there. Oh, yeah. I mean, there's

19:26

literally scenes of them like hitting each other and

19:28

stuff. Part of that populist image

19:31

and we speak about this with our

19:33

guests is creating the impression

19:35

that their victims, that they're so

19:37

innocent, and also getting

19:39

really, really defensive whenever anybody

19:41

questions them or accuses them

19:43

of setting impossible beauty standards that

19:45

are negatively affecting the mental health of young

19:47

people they just totally play innocent,

19:50

which, I mean, we all play

19:52

innocent in our everyday lives. That's what we

19:54

do as humans. But when you have

19:56

as much influence and clout as

19:58

they have old built, it starts

20:00

to become not only problematic but

20:03

culty. I think once you have like so

20:05

much power and money and influence, like, it's it's hard for something not

20:07

to turn into a cult. I totally, you know. I

20:09

think the difference is that this is a

20:11

cult that even if we don't choose to be

20:13

in it, we're fucking in

20:15

it. everyone is affected by, like, the repercussions of, like, the societal

20:17

standards that the Kardashians

20:20

inflict upon society. Oh my god.

20:22

That sounds like something I would say.

20:24

I am really going off

20:26

today. We're going

20:29

to chat with a brilliant

20:31

guest. My friend and

20:33

comedian Megan Durti. She

20:35

does stand up. She's a writer. She's written

20:37

for the New Yorker. Fancy.

20:40

so fancy and she's currently writing a book

20:42

of short essays. And I think

20:44

you're really gonna enjoy it.

20:53

wanna tell our customers who

20:55

you are what you do. I don't know why I asked him. Oh, my god. I feel

20:58

like I'm in the front of a classroom. I just thought I'd

21:00

start off the convo. Who I

21:02

am and who I wanna be?

21:04

I'm Meg

21:07

Indurti. Full name is Megana. I'm a

21:09

stand up comedian, humor writer, came

21:11

from Chicago. Now

21:11

I live in LA. and

21:13

I write for the New Yorker, contribute to the

21:16

onion. And I do stand

21:18

up everywhere.

21:18

I produce a show right here in LA

21:20

called the big

21:21

one. And yeah, that's me.

21:23

Okay. So

21:27

can you please tell us about

21:29

your relationship to

21:31

the Kardashians? Hatred.

21:34

Out of the

21:37

gate. Yeah. The Kardashians. I

21:39

mean, I think despite

21:41

my

21:41

best efforts, I know a lot

21:43

about them.

21:44

Just because they're just on what do you

21:46

call it when they're on the side? The

21:47

peripheral. peripheral. broke, bro.

21:50

I was like, yeah, rearview. I

21:52

just I neither wish to drive.

21:54

I just I

21:57

made twelve you turn get here. You did. You did we

21:59

all survived.

21:59

There's always something going on. There's, like, some

22:02

sort of scandal or they're attached

22:04

to someone where

22:06

there's a scandal. And and so

22:08

it's sort of like this thing

22:09

that we are all sort of forced to

22:11

know about.

22:11

Yeah. Like someone one said that they're kind

22:13

of

22:13

our royal family. Mhmm.

22:15

Yeah. And I think that's pretty accurate.

22:17

mentioned that because we did an episode on the cult

22:19

of the royal family. Oh, yeah.

22:22

English people by and large, are

22:24

certain that the Kardashians are a

22:26

bottom shelf royal family. But

22:28

nonetheless, they do serve this sort of

22:30

monarchical role in our

22:32

society. I kinda Is there like

22:34

a higher top shelf royal

22:36

family in that they have more influence like

22:38

the royal family is only relevant to, like,

22:40

English people. They wanna give us a crap

22:42

about them. The royal family, like, pays to

22:44

be in the daily mail. The Kardashians just

22:46

like

22:46

are everywhere. Yeah. I

22:49

agree that they are sort of like everyone knows

22:51

them in the world. And they obviously

22:53

started off by paying in that same

22:55

way. Like, they invested a lot in their

22:57

influence before they became like natural

22:59

influencers. I think part of it is also luck.

23:01

Right? They've also just sort of like from

23:03

the beginning, like being attached to OJ,

23:05

being attached to Rej,

23:07

and then Kanye, and then Caitlin

23:09

Jenner, Like, they all end an a?

23:11

Oh my god. It's like I was wrap.

23:13

I can start wrapping. Okay. And,

23:16

like, what? Like,

23:18

Anyway, buy my album on SoundCloud.

23:20

It's just all these,

23:22

like, famous like, not even just,

23:24

like, slightly famous, these, like, world

23:27

famous people.

23:27

They've always just sort of been attached to

23:29

them. So they've always and Paris Hilton --

23:32

Yeah. -- too. Yeah. She was, like, Paris

23:34

Hilton's, like, France. Assistance. Actually, I

23:36

mean so the Kardashians,

23:38

like, already were rich. And we

23:40

forget that. Yeah. People really do be

23:42

forgetting that because she she says

23:44

some shit, like, people just don't work

23:46

hard anymore. They have the best

23:48

advice for women in business. get

23:50

your fucking ass up and work. It

23:51

seems like nobody wants to work these

23:54

days. You grew up in

23:55

Beverly Hills, dude, like -- Yeah.

23:57

-- you already friends with

23:59

Paris Hilton to the point where then you got to be

24:01

her, like, friend slash assistant. Dad was

24:04

like a

24:04

rich And she's not the only

24:07

celebrity, but

24:07

like a lot of celebrities have

24:09

zero

24:09

understanding of how like the rest of the

24:12

world actually lives.

24:13

Yeah. And that's why I think a lot

24:14

of people get frustrated when they speak on it

24:17

because it's like, you don't know -- Yeah. -- but it's

24:19

like to not have health insurance or,

24:21

like, have to

24:21

work to live. So it's like really condescending. Yeah.

24:24

When you are like, pull your stop up by

24:26

the bootstraps. Oh, no worries. I

24:28

I thought it was funny because we really wanted you on the podcast

24:30

and, like, we were chatting and then we started

24:32

talking about the Kardashians. And I was on

24:34

this high horse. She was, like, I was, like,

24:37

sides Well, I literally have been, like,

24:39

watching the Kardashians on Hulu, so I've been

24:41

consuming this Kardashian propaganda. So

24:43

I was on this mentality of Kardashian is

24:45

actually a boss. Whenever

24:48

I would condemn them

24:50

or not understand a reference, you

24:52

would judge me like I had done some something

24:54

wrong. I don't judge. No. No.

24:58

No.

24:59

No. But like I

25:01

was like, you know what? I don't like

25:03

all of them, but I do think Kim is, like,

25:05

a really hard worker and she's helped her whole

25:08

family. Like, get to where she is.

25:10

I don't think she's perfect, obviously,

25:12

but I appreciate that she has

25:14

kind of like lifted her whole family, like,

25:16

up with her. But then we were

25:18

in your kitchen and you were giving me kind of a

25:20

similar look. You went on like a

25:22

rant for, like, probably, like, a seven and a half

25:24

to ten minutes. And I was just, like, don't

25:26

you want to come on the podcast?

25:28

I know that was, like, my audition. I was, like, please,

25:30

let I know. I think so

25:32

much of Kim

25:33

Kardashian's fame and all the Kardashian's

25:35

fame has just been built on, like,

25:38

stealing from other people. Yeah. Like,

25:40

their call old culture vultures,

25:42

which I think is great. One because

25:44

it rhymes. But in two, because it's accurate. Like,

25:46

they have one been

25:48

accused multiple times of, like, stealing from

25:50

indie black designers for their

25:53

fashion spaces, but also just like

25:55

everything in the way that they look. There's this really

25:57

incredible new record article called Instagram

25:59

phase. She kinda, like, really dissects

26:02

how we, like, borrow from, like, Latino women

26:04

and South Asian women and, like, black

26:06

woman, predominantly black woman in American culture to

26:08

sort of like borrow all of the

26:10

assets of them, but then put it on like a

26:12

white woman's body. Yeah. And that is, like,

26:14

sort of the only way these features can

26:17

be appreciated. And I think the

26:19

Kardashians are, like, a kinda weird black

26:21

mirrory representation.

26:22

portion of that. They've done essentially everything

26:23

but straight up blackface. Mhmm. Like, they've,

26:26

like, you know, I mean, there's three bands.

26:27

sprayface. Yeah. They've done

26:30

spray They use really dark makeup,

26:33

their features, their plastic surgery, the way that

26:35

they dress, even like the people that they marry

26:37

and attach themselves with, like, Chloe

26:39

is, like, I like to have a fetish for

26:41

black man. It's like, that's that's weird. I don't

26:43

really say that. All

26:45

of history's most notorious,

26:47

most dangerous cult leaders have also been cultured

26:49

vultures like Keith Reenery stole all his

26:51

shit from Scientology. All new

26:53

age cult leaders stole their

26:55

shit from buddhism, Hinduism,

26:57

evangelicalism, they do the sort of

26:59

Frankensteinian thing where they pull all

27:01

the most compelling bits from spiritual

27:04

practices that people have flocked to

27:06

over the years and they create something quote

27:08

unquote new, but really it's

27:10

just something optimized to

27:12

get people to to flop, like, to flop. Like,

27:14

to flop. Yeah. Yeah.

27:16

Like, she took all the little bits that likes

27:18

and she put them together and was like, I've

27:20

created something new. Classic

27:23

font. And

27:28

actually speaking of appropriating from black

27:30

culture, the most notorious

27:32

leader of all time Jim Jones,

27:34

calculatedly studied the

27:36

mannerisms of flexible rights leaders and

27:38

spiritual leaders from doctor

27:40

Martin Luther King junior to Angela Davis

27:42

to Father Devine, and he

27:44

appealed to black followers by co opting

27:46

that language as a way to suggest

27:48

that he could be trusted. So honestly, this

27:50

is a theme with cultish leaders.

27:53

what do you think would define cult of the Kardashians? Like,

27:55

who do you think is in it? Do you think it's, like, the family

27:57

or the people who've been in the reality TV

27:59

show? The stands. Or the stands?

28:01

I don't, like, never

28:02

wanna bash reality TV. I understand why

28:05

people like it. People in the cult of the Kardashians

28:07

are, like, everybody who follows them on

28:09

Instagram and kinda,

28:09

like, even the people who hate follow. I feel like -- Yeah.

28:11

-- total -- Yeah. -- or it kinda contributed because I

28:14

don't have any of them. Me and myself. devil's

28:16

avocado. don't

28:19

follow any of them either, but at the same

28:21

time, you can't escape their influence.

28:23

If you are on social media, you are

28:25

in the top of the Kardashians member.

28:27

see them like on Instagram. Oh, neither do I,

28:29

but I see people who look like them and that's enough.

28:31

Every

28:33

time I feel insecure about

28:36

my

28:36

eyes

28:37

not being a certain shape or my butt not

28:39

being a certain size, that is the cult of

28:41

the Kardashians rearing its ugly head. Hundred percent.

28:43

And I think Kim

28:44

is incredibly hot. Yeah. There's

28:46

part of me that's, like,

28:47

jealous. Do you think that their kids are, like,

28:49

in the

28:50

cold? In the cold? And is

28:51

it, like Not yet. but

28:53

I think they are. What do you think of the

28:56

consent behind children being like

28:58

public figures? Like, all their kids are already

29:00

public figures? Yeah. And

29:01

they don't get to choose that. I guess, like, they're, like,

29:03

physically in the cold. I don't know. Would that count as

29:05

them being mentally in the cold? Because

29:07

it's, like, Maybe they grow up and are

29:09

like, whoa. This is a fucked up

29:11

family. We are

29:12

sometimes asked by listeners. Do you think

29:14

that toxic powerful families can

29:16

be cult like, and I think definitely because think

29:19

about it. It's like a group that you can't

29:21

leave because you depend on your parents for,

29:23

you know -- Yeah. -- everything. and

29:25

they're bringing you up with certain standards,

29:27

certain ethics, and the exit

29:29

cost can be very. Hi. Yeah. I was

29:31

thinking like exit cost because, like, if they do

29:34

wanna leave, like, the wealth of the family, they

29:36

have to create their own wealth and what's the only

29:38

way they can if they're an influencer

29:40

family is to become an influencer. So

29:42

they're, like, double in two cults.

29:44

Wow. That is something I feel like

29:46

we'll see in our lifetime of just like one at

29:48

least one of them will be like, this whole

29:50

thing is a root. Like, they will, like, take it down from the

29:52

inside. Yeah.

29:53

Oh, yeah. That'll be interesting,

29:55

Noah. The revolution of the Kardashians.

29:57

Yeah. We're looking at you

29:59

north bottom

30:00

line. I do have faith in north of any

30:02

of them or Stormy. Stormy.

30:05

Stormy.

30:07

There

30:12

are so

30:15

many reasons why we're all

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dehydrated We're hungover.

30:19

We're tired. Yeah. I'm like

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staring at my coffee and water. Yeah.

30:24

It's hot. It's dry.

30:26

We're

30:26

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30:29

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30:31

drink alcohol. Yes.

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What would you

36:24

say is the number one cultiest

36:26

thing about the influence

36:28

of the Kardashians? I would

36:30

say it's the way that they've defined beauty. I know,

36:32

like, beauty shifts over time and, like,

36:34

it's always changing, but they've really,

36:37

like, kind of borrowed from every

36:40

culture and at the city and kind of

36:42

like make shifted themselves

36:44

and become like the most

36:47

beautiful woman on her.

36:48

Yeah. And a lot of the surgery that

36:50

they, like, perpetuate is, like, permanent expensive

36:52

surgery, like, when they first

36:54

got BBLs like, they weren't common. And

36:57

now people are, like, going to South America

36:59

to get, like, cheap BBLs. And it's, like,

37:01

actually, one of the most dangerous plastic surgeries

37:03

and, like, has the highest rate of, like, death.

37:05

Oh, beauty standards have never been

37:07

more impossible to meet. And at the same time,

37:09

we're in this sort

37:12

of, like, foe body positivity era where it's

37:14

like you have to look like a

37:16

Kardashian, but you

37:18

can't express self

37:20

loathing if you don't. Yeah.

37:22

So we're just caught in this mind fuck of

37:24

an era. Speaking of the

37:26

members of the family being in the cult

37:28

themselves, like, they all

37:30

got surgery to look like him. Yeah. They did.

37:32

And that's that was really sad. Wasn't, like,

37:34

highly looked completely different -- Mhmm.

37:37

-- even the Kardashians. don't look like They

37:39

don't. It's like an impossible standard that they can't even live out too.

37:41

Yeah. I think on their new show, something I did notice

37:43

was that I think there are literal beauty

37:45

filters on them.

37:48

Oh, yeah. even in the Verite. There was, like, this whole YouTube

37:50

series where this guy, like, kind of, discusses,

37:51

like, photoshop and all of that, and

37:53

he uses Kylie Jenner's Instagram a lot

37:55

to be, like, this looks

37:57

really good, but this is where you can

38:00

spot that this was like, their her

38:02

stomach was whittled in in her neck.

38:03

And it's like, oh my god. It's you

38:05

guys ever, like, take a really good selfie and then you look at it later?

38:07

You're like, I don't look like that. Yeah. It's like that where

38:09

you it's like this impossible standard that, like,

38:11

they can't even live up. Yeah. And and they

38:13

they've even upped the, like, anti and that they

38:16

started to do it with, like, motion picture.

38:18

Like, it's a -- Yeah. -- film now. Like, the

38:20

filters are

38:22

applicable to Like, so funny. This sounds overdramatic,

38:24

but, like, I'm afraid to

38:26

one day have a daughter who has to,

38:28

like, come

38:30

of age in a culture made by the Kardashians. Yeah.

38:32

Where that's just the norm. There there is this really

38:34

funny thing on Twitter that went viral where Kim

38:35

posted something on her Instagram story and

38:38

her hand was

38:40

on it. she was like, oops, sorry for the pale hand. And Twitter

38:42

was like, we what do you mean

38:44

pale hand?

38:44

This is how you

38:45

look. Like, you just got a really intense

38:47

spray tan. She's so cute.

38:50

your diluted. Yeah. Well, I'm like, this is just your natural

38:52

skin tone. Oh my gosh.

38:54

Like like your face is

38:56

not right. With like the

38:59

Kardashians. What do you think is so

39:01

dangerous about that? Well, this girl

39:03

boss, feminism branding, it's like

39:05

they've

39:05

essentially been really chameleons of

39:08

tapping in to the narrative of

39:10

each year of being like, okay, this is

39:12

how I can stay relevant. Now it's like

39:14

really empowering to be a woman who's in business. So I'm

39:16

gonna, like, talk about that. And I'm also

39:19

busy moms. So I'm gonna, like, talk

39:21

about that. There's this like form of girl boss

39:24

feminism where it's so

39:26

palatable and it doesn't like

39:28

really challenge the status quo. And when you, like, consolidate

39:30

a revolutionary movement like that to, like,

39:32

such a degree that it's mainstream, that you

39:34

can put it on merch.

39:35

Yeah. When you can

39:38

put, like, a pizza or a patriarchy and dilute it to

39:40

such as lesser degree that everyone's on board.

39:42

It's

39:42

no longer the thing -- Yeah. -- that you're fighting

39:44

for. And she does a lot of that.

39:47

in, like, the makeup that she sells, in the way

39:49

that she defends herself when she gets

39:51

criticism.

39:51

She's, like, women get a lot of

39:53

hatred. Oh my gosh. Like, when Kendall

39:56

Jenner started producing, like, her own

39:58

tequila -- Yeah. -- and she got it. So am I

40:00

thinking about it? Yeah. Yeah. I

40:02

think, like, a lot of Mexican people

40:04

and Latinos in

40:04

general were frustrated because her commercial. She was,

40:07

like, riding a horse and she had, like, Mexican

40:09

men around her and

40:10

it was high key cultural

40:12

appropriation. and she got so much shit for it on TikTok that then

40:14

she went on Jimmy Fallon late night. They're

40:16

so good at turning the narrative.

40:18

They're so good at being the vic

40:21

Yes. And she turns the narrative and, like, she didn't

40:23

even claim victimhood, but she changed the narrative to

40:25

be like, you know, when I wanted

40:27

to create my own

40:29

business, I wanted to be a woman led company and

40:31

I noticed that tequila companies are

40:34

primarily led by men. And so I

40:36

went in to an

40:38

industry where, like, women just weren't there. And I was

40:40

like, yeah. But but you

40:40

also went into a Mexican industry.

40:44

That's like calendarming, like, you don't notice, like, it's only men bombing

40:46

Middle Eastern countries. Yeah. I

40:48

really want to do that. Yeah. Well, it reminds

40:49

me so much

40:52

of when Z Way had that one guest on

40:54

her show, and they started having

40:56

the, like, quote unquote, oppression

40:58

Olympics where you

41:00

asked him a question about banking, and he's Jewish, and he was, like, what do you

41:02

wanna talk about banks for? And it was just,

41:04

like, this is hilarious. Adam Poly. Yeah.

41:06

It was just this, like, hilarious

41:09

spoof on, like, twisting the narrative to talk

41:12

about how, like, you're actually in

41:14

the oppressed seat. I feel like anytime

41:16

they get any criticism, they, like,

41:18

don't address the actual

41:20

criticism. Like, they don't talk

41:22

about blackfishing

41:22

or, like, the fact

41:24

that Kim, like, endorse these, like,

41:26

diet pills, diet lollipop thing and,

41:29

like, when people criticized her for that, she

41:31

was just like,

41:32

you know, we can all believe in whatever we wanna

41:34

believe. Like, you know, she just says very, like,

41:36

sloggy. Diplomatic political things. And

41:38

I think the thing that frustrates me

41:40

the most about when Kim Kardashian

41:43

or any of the Kardashians are diplomatic

41:46

and like apolitical is that they'll be

41:48

so apolitical on things that

41:50

actually matter but that when an

41:52

election comes around, she'll endorse like Rick Caruso. Okay. So, like, you

41:54

are literally taking a stance

41:58

on actual politics, on an actual election. But then when people

42:00

ask you a question about your ethics and

42:02

your beliefs, you'll be evasive. Yeah.

42:05

this is, like, what took

42:06

me from, like, the corrections are annoying to,

42:08

like, I hate them. They're a whole, like, prison

42:10

reform thing that Kim did. Did you guys

42:12

do you guys remember

42:13

that? Like, She essentially worked with the Trump administration. with

42:16

the Trump administration. Well, that's not

42:18

the issue with it. Right?

42:19

because, I mean, I think issues

42:21

with both administrations. To

42:24

me, that's, like, the perfect example of

42:26

what she does and what celebrities do

42:28

when they think they're solving this problem, but

42:30

they're completely misunderstanding the problem itself. Like, she has this, like, New

42:33

York Times article written about her, like, she

42:35

where she's talking about, like,

42:38

oh yeah, it's really hard toward a business and free prisoners and

42:40

be a mom. And it's like, wait, this

42:41

is about you. And that's not

42:44

what liberation

42:46

is It's not about, like, your journey. It's about, like,

42:48

liberating people. I looked up her

42:50

net worth one point eight billion dollars

42:52

or net worth.

42:54

She is the

42:56

problem. That

42:57

sort of level of inequality is

42:59

sort of what traps people in poverty

43:01

and like what pushes

43:03

people into crime. and what pushed

43:05

people no jail. And it's like she is the

43:08

problem that she's trying to solve,

43:10

but she's trying to solve it in in like a

43:12

way doesn't actually help. Yeah. We were talking about this the

43:13

other day, but it's like in one of the episodes of the

43:15

new season, like, she's writing on this

43:18

whiteboard and being like, I need to get this man

43:20

out of jail before

43:22

his death sentence. And then in the next

43:24

episode, she's going on her brand

43:26

new private jet. And I'm

43:28

like, what the fuck.

43:30

Yeah. I think a lot of the

43:32

evasiveness that we were talking about her

43:34

avoiding pointed

43:36

questions. is very much connected to the fact that she and the whole

43:38

family refused to acknowledge the

43:40

amount of power that they truly have

43:42

over our entire society. political

43:46

power, beauty standards power --

43:48

Yeah. -- power to

43:50

maintain and encourage racist

43:52

behavior. Remember when the whole

43:54

family on some reunion was asked, like, do you

43:56

feel like you have a responsibility

43:58

not

43:59

to perpetuate unneedable

44:00

plastic surgery standards, and they were

44:02

like, no, we don't feel responsible for that at

44:04

all. It's like, yes, you are. You created

44:07

this. Yeah. Sure. Do

44:10

you think that you are

44:12

promoting unattainable standards of beauty

44:14

in any way?

44:15

No, I don't.

44:16

i don't because

44:17

I think we get up. We do the work. We work

44:20

out.

44:20

We all really enjoy taking

44:22

care of ourselves and being healthy.

44:25

So I think if

44:25

anything, the only thing we're really trying to

44:28

represent is just being the most healthy version

44:30

of yourself. For me, it's also the

44:32

doubling down of lying

44:34

that they don't get plastic surgery

44:36

or like denying it and saying that they

44:38

just work out and that they eat healthy. Yeah.

44:40

And it's like, no. You have a

44:42

nutrition as you have a plastic surgeon, you have a dietitian,

44:44

you have a sort of editor. Yeah. You have six kids and you

44:46

have that body bitch. Okay. billion

44:49

dollars. Yeah. That all helps. Yeah.

44:52

There was, like, one statistic I learned that it was, like, thirty

44:54

percent of people come in, bringing in a

44:56

photo

44:56

of Kim for, like, their plastic surgery

44:58

thing. People try to look like

45:01

her. Like --

45:01

Yeah. -- I really love to find that

45:04

Instagram face. Yeah. Like, I really love

45:06

what you said about, like,

45:08

them denying the

45:08

power that they have because it's like they have so much political

45:10

power

45:10

that we didn't elect them, but

45:13

now she's working with the president

45:15

to free prisoners like, wait what? Like

45:17

-- Yeah. -- what -- That's huge democracy. --

45:20

much political power. But while

45:22

they have the power, they also play the

45:24

victim. Yeah. Like, oh, like, I'm a woman being

45:26

criticized on the Internet. Like, oh, like, it's still hard

45:28

being a business leader and a mom. And it's like,

45:30

no, you're a billionaire. Oh my god. We got a

45:32

comment once because we said something critical of

45:34

Kim in another episode, and

45:36

someone said, It was women bashing women. And

45:38

I'm like, first of all, Kim Kardashian isn't

45:40

a woman. She's an empire.

45:42

She's literally

45:44

a figurehead for a whole problematic mode of existence at this

45:46

point, but also how much of

45:48

a cult like interpretation of feminism

45:51

is it that now we can't breathe a

45:53

word of valid criticism even of

45:55

a moral, cloud chasing,

45:58

greedy reality TV billionaires. just because our

45:59

genders happen to overlap a

46:02

little bit.

46:08

Maybe I'll

46:10

be

46:10

playing devil's advocate in this episode.

46:13

When when you play devil's advocate, it's

46:15

called the devil's advocate. Yeah.

46:18

I mean, you have a motto.

46:20

The way that they humanize themselves

46:22

on their show really makes

46:24

you empathize for them because you

46:26

see like all the hate comments that they get.

46:29

And, like, it's such a propaganda thing

46:31

because it's this idea that, like,

46:33

their life isn't perfect. why do

46:35

they feel comfortable showing off their wealth on TV like that? You know, like in twenty

46:37

twenty two? There's like so much homelessness. The world

46:39

is boiling and

46:42

getting crazy Like, they feel comfortable showing that level of wealth only because

46:44

they then turn the narrative and are like,

46:46

yeah, but being rich, like, sucks.

46:48

It's like that fake narrative

46:50

that even if you get

46:52

everything you want, you still won't be happy. I'm

46:54

gonna call bullshit on that. But

46:56

also, like, we're not talking about

46:58

happiness. We're talking

47:00

about survival. Yeah. And you're flipping the narrative to be like, oh, my life is

47:02

so hard. It's like, your survival

47:04

has been always

47:06

and we will always

47:08

be sorted. It's two things.

47:10

Right? It's like, yeah, like there's no amount of wealth

47:12

that can

47:12

protect you from like depression and the

47:14

reality of

47:15

life, but that doesn't take away from the fact

47:16

that that also affects people who aren't immensely

47:18

wealthy. They said you have the

47:21

resources and the networks and the material benefits of,

47:24

like, food, housing, water, shelter,

47:26

health insurance -- Yeah. -- so that you can actually,

47:28

like, deal with

47:30

those problems. I'm not gonna play you a fucking violin when you, like,

47:32

went to a private island over the

47:34

pandemic to throw your birthday party and then posted about

47:36

it on Twitter. Yeah. And then

47:38

got mad

47:38

people roasted you.

47:40

Like, of course, I'm gonna make But getting mad for me,

47:42

there was this scene where, like, Kim Kardashian on

47:44

her latest season was, like, for all you trolls

47:46

out there, like, shitting on us. Like, I'm gonna find you

47:48

and I'm gonna and then she was like, well, I'm not

47:50

gonna threaten you on national television. That's not what I'm

47:53

gonna do, but she was like, stop because that hurts our

47:55

feelings And I'm like, actually, that Rolling

47:57

is literally what pays your bills. Yeah.

47:59

So they have a lot of influence and a lot

48:01

of these influences can lead to, like, people

48:03

having plastic surgery or, like, changing their

48:06

face or, like, even thinking that they themselves could

48:08

be influencers maybe.

48:10

Mhmm. What colleague negative effect do you think this has on, like,

48:12

people's, like, day to day lives? Like, how bad do you

48:14

think it could get? I mean, I think it

48:16

already is

48:18

getting bad they've sort

48:18

of created, like, the influencer industry. This industry of, like,

48:20

oh, you don't actually don't, like, have

48:22

to have a talent.

48:24

Like, you can just be

48:27

an influencer. It's become like this self fulfilling prophecy machine of

48:29

like everyone feels like they

48:31

have to do it. Yeah.

48:33

You know, like, I feel like we're all, like, public

48:36

personas. Like, you also feel like you have

48:38

to be hot on

48:40

Instagram and you have to look a

48:42

certain way, like, logically, we can understand everything that the Kardashians have perpetrated,

48:44

but also we still live in the society

48:46

where we have to, like, participate

48:48

and where beauty is currency,

48:51

especially if you're like a women or women identifying person.

48:53

They created all these, like, standards now

48:55

that we all have to follow. And that's like

48:57

the

48:57

page that we're

49:00

all on. Yeah. Or like we have to be on. Right? Yeah. It's so

49:02

destructive. Here's a fun stat for you.

49:04

In twenty nineteen, a Bloomberg

49:06

study reported that ninety eight percent

49:08

of American

49:10

middle and high schoolers reported wanting to be an influencer. Ninety

49:12

eight percent. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of

49:14

people used to want to be like

49:16

lawyers, doctors, and like

49:18

space people.

49:20

Astrand's presence based on They didn't remember what they're coming

49:22

out anymore. Like, now they, like, are literally

49:24

wanna be, like, youTuber. Oh,

49:25

yeah. In twenty eighteen,

49:27

a study that was conducted in the US, the UK,

49:30

and China found that three

49:32

times as many kids wanted to be

49:34

YouTubers as astronauts.

49:36

And honestly, call me a

49:38

conspiracy theorist, but I pretty

49:40

directly blame the Kardashians for this

49:42

cultural shift. Yeah. Yeah. I

49:44

think you could pretty

49:44

much draw it back to them. Can I read this

49:47

quote? Yeah. It's by Charles Hamilton from his book Black Power,

49:49

which is also by Qami Tore. He says, we

49:51

are in an era of tremendous

49:54

influence to the pop culture medium, where

49:56

many become politicized, not

49:58

through long, hard study

50:00

in organizing, but through the passionate portrayal ever struggled through emotional

50:02

speeches, movies,

50:02

and television. It complicates the polarization

50:04

process. It is

50:05

quick, intense, theatrical, and sincere,

50:07

but it is not very

50:09

likely deep and

50:10

sustaining. Yeah. And I really like

50:12

that last line where it's like theatrical and

50:14

sincere because it it can be both.

50:16

Like, it's not but I think all these people

50:19

are, like, malicious or fake. Yeah. It's that

50:21

those are real and sincere, but then it's

50:23

there's no substance

50:24

behind it. maybe not Kim herself,

50:26

but the

50:26

Kardashian culture and, like, sort of the machine

50:28

that they created, like, have created this culture where

50:31

it's, like, everything's sort of

50:32

very shallow Yes. surface level, and

50:34

we don't interact beyond that. Yeah. And

50:36

I think the danger of that is the

50:39

fact that, like, people are so addicted

50:41

to instant gratification that they think that advocacy and posting online

50:43

is enough when it comes to, like,

50:45

actual social and cultural change,

50:47

you have to implement long term policy movements and

50:49

you have to, like, be consistent in, like, maybe

50:52

volunteering in the community or something. Maybe leaving your

50:54

house and getting off Instagram for five

50:56

minutes. Yeah.

50:58

They have created a generation that is like so addicted to being

51:00

online. And then on top of that,

51:02

they have so much power

51:04

and influence that,

51:06

like, at the snap of their fingers, they could literally, like,

51:09

control this country.

51:10

She's like a person who could, like,

51:12

literally change a lot. Like, with

51:16

homelessness, if she gave away, like, half of her wealth, you

51:18

know? Yep. I don't think it's

51:19

even just about giving away her wealth because

51:21

it's not just about money.

51:23

Like, I think so many organizations are, like, so rich and

51:25

they're trying to solve homelessness or different issues. It's these

51:28

issues that are so complex, but she has

51:30

also influence over people that could

51:32

help with,

51:34

like, grassroots movements kind of situation and, like, that's the sad part

51:36

for me is that, like, you have

51:38

so much power and you're not doing anything

51:41

This is how I feel though. I also don't think she should be

51:43

the one. That's the only thing. I think

51:44

that's why I said money because it's

51:47

like, she has enough money that she could give

51:49

it to the people who

51:49

know what they're doing. Yeah. like, there's a lot

51:51

of people working towards, like, police and

51:54

prison abolition in terms of, like,

51:56

actually

51:56

creating meaningful change. And they know what they're

51:58

doing. And then what they're doing and they don't get, like, New York Times

51:59

headlines or the money, but

52:02

she's created this trend of, like, okay, I'm gonna

52:04

do, like, this bare minimum thing and get a

52:06

lot of accolades and

52:08

post about it and make it kind of like a self

52:10

fulfilling journey. Yeah. I'm gonna, like,

52:12

inspire everyone else. This

52:14

is where the boundaries

52:14

between influencer and cult leader

52:17

become really, really blurry because we talk about

52:19

this a lot. But when you start

52:21

to claim expertise on every

52:24

topic from how your face should be

52:26

structured to how to

52:28

solve the prison industrial

52:30

complex. Right. Baby, you're a cult leader. I'm

52:32

sorry, like, what is an

52:34

influencer? It's someone who's telling you what to wear

52:36

and telling you what eye cream use, not

52:38

someone who's

52:38

telling you about policy in the

52:40

most shallow Instagram

52:41

Carousel type way.

52:50

Okay. Devil's Avocado, and that's what we're

52:51

gonna just start calling it because I don't wanna

52:53

be a devil's advocate.

52:57

the devil's lip stop. Yeah. advocate

53:00

for the devil, but I will, Avocado for the

53:02

devil. Okay. Devil's Avocado. She

53:05

is a public figure, so anything she does

53:07

is inherently going to be with

53:10

herself at the center of it. That's the only way to,

53:12

like, get people to pay

53:14

attention is her to use her power of, like,

53:16

her personal health plans. I disagree with that.

53:18

She's Oh, wait. Oh, my

53:20

god. But I'm not done with my personal

53:22

avocado. I mean, What she does

53:24

really well is she does bring

53:26

people on board with her and her

53:29

team that like have been working on

53:31

these issues for generations. Like, hasn't started her own organization. I think

53:34

she's working on starting her

53:36

own organization for the criminal

53:38

justice work that she's done, but she's

53:40

primarily in the past, like, couple years

53:42

been working adjacent to

53:44

other existing

53:46

organizations. And I don't think she, like, makes her donations but she

53:48

has, like, shared her Instagram with

53:50

figures and organizations who, like, help

53:52

with these kinds of issues. You know, it's

53:56

interesting cult have always arisen during times of

53:57

broader societal turbulence like in the seventies.

53:59

So it's actually really no accident that

54:02

now in

54:04

these chaotic modern times when we have so little trust in

54:06

the powers that be followers would

54:08

turn to someone like capitalist

54:12

queen Kim Kardashian who five minutes ago was promoting her reality

54:14

show and a weight loss lollie pops and

54:16

lingerie for what to do and think

54:18

politically, you

54:20

know, it's Kim's willingness to seize that

54:22

power that's giving toxic

54:24

savior complex profit cult

54:27

leader vibes to me. For

54:30

me, I

54:30

don't even think that her working in

54:32

the criminal justice space is the cultiest

54:34

thing about her. I think for

54:36

me like the cultier and cultiest thing about her is

54:39

the idea that she

54:41

came from nothing. and

54:43

the idea that she, like, has built herself from the

54:46

ground up because it perpetuates this

54:48

narrative that if you come from

54:50

nothing, you too can

54:50

get to where she is. And if

54:52

you don't get to where she is and there's something wrong

54:54

with you? Yeah. Then there's something I mean, that's like

54:56

the Old America, like That's awesome.

54:58

But but dream bullshit. But she

55:00

does it through this like map of her own success

55:02

and like in her if you follow like her

55:04

success, it's like she got plastic surgery.

55:07

She did different things that like put her

55:09

in the public spotlight that weren't necessarily like

55:11

deemed

55:11

as positive at the time, like, you know, her

55:13

sex tape leaked. Then she went to TV to talk about

55:15

it, then she got plastic surgery, then she did it a

55:17

basketball player, then she divorced him, then she did it like

55:20

a rapper. And then, why do you know

55:22

this biography so well? I mean, it's just like who she's dated. It's like so public.

55:24

But other people think they need to, like, follow

55:26

that same map. And I think it's dangerous

55:30

when people are getting literal plastic surgery so

55:32

that they can, like, become

55:34

influencers. She's created like an army of Kim

55:35

robots.

55:37

Yeah. Actually, Okay. But I do I

55:39

still think the

55:40

issue is that she

55:41

has this power, and I think you can't

55:43

solve the problem by like giving

55:45

her more power. Yeah. You know what

55:47

I mean? Like, this what I'm trying to say is, like, the

55:49

actual solution isn't this, like, individual big

55:51

tree, which I think

55:54

is off in the way that we're taught about

55:56

stuff because that's a very, like, American way to think about it. It's like, oh, like, this one

55:58

individual person can change it.

55:59

The can change it's the only

56:02

time that any, like, true progress

56:04

has been made throughout history through, like, collective action. Yeah. Often, celebrities

56:07

are politically under

56:09

informed and reactionary,

56:11

and they're to invested

56:13

in

56:13

capitalism because that's where

56:16

their wealth and power comes that they

56:18

would never completely have

56:20

solidarity with working class people. I also

56:21

think that social media emboldens

56:24

people to be even more reactionary

56:26

because every thing is just

56:28

the instant gratification. Oh, now I'm an

56:30

expert because of the Instagram

56:32

carousel. Kim Kardashian claiming to have

56:34

any kind of expertise or influence in this

56:36

space and really cat capitalizing on

56:38

that is further perpetuating

56:40

that style of political

56:42

engagement. The solution to this stuff

56:44

isn't like an overnight thing either or like even like a quick thing. It's

56:46

like so much of it is like fundamentally

56:48

changing the

56:48

way we live. It's this

56:51

long, hard, arduous,

56:54

annoying, not

56:54

beautifully photographed process.

56:56

Right. Okay. So I think the that

56:58

you're, like, talking about it makes total sense and I agree, like, I don't think we

57:01

should be giving her more power. That's definitely

57:03

not a solution But I

57:05

also think that's kind of thinking about it in like this zero

57:08

sum mindset where, like, if she

57:10

helps with this just

57:12

because

57:12

she also gets more clout from

57:14

it, then

57:15

it's like a overall

57:17

bad thing. Like, I think she's

57:19

ultimately still helping people. You know what I mean?

57:21

But we didn't elect her Well, we don't

57:23

elect non profits. And honestly, we don't elect

57:26

most politicians. That's

57:27

true. But, I mean, like, the only

57:29

reason she has power is because she has money.

57:31

We can't just, like, trust her

57:33

opinions and morals to be on

57:35

the snow page. I one hundred percent agree.

57:37

Like, I don't trust her opinions. I don't trust

57:39

her morals, but I do think that a lot

57:41

of people do though. I think the

57:43

problem like, American politics and government is that, like, we

57:46

function on, like, a lobbyist mindset.

57:48

Like, it's, like,

57:50

lobbyist. Oh, it's not

57:52

working literally. It's, like, the problem and,

57:54

like, the NRA

57:54

and Kim Kardashian. Yeah. What I was gonna

57:56

say is, like, the way that

57:57

I see it is that Kim Kardashian

57:59

is now just another

58:02

lobbyist, but at least she's

58:04

trying to do, like, prison reform and I

58:06

don't think makes her like a better person. Not really because it's like

58:08

she's not really helping anything.

58:10

Like, freeing a few people from prison

58:12

and doing it in like a high

58:13

profile way isn't prison And

58:15

that's the problem is that she's creating this illusion that

58:18

that's what activism is, and that's what her

58:20

forum is. And that's not activism at all.

58:22

What she's doing is

58:24

I think part of it is performative, but, like, I

58:26

can't speak on, like, what her

58:28

organization or what the organization she's worked with

58:30

have done specifically. But, like, you guys are

58:32

speaking, like, hard and

58:34

true fact as though, like, she's not

58:36

helping, like, push policy reform

58:38

forward. Like, I don't know what specifically

58:40

she's doing about it, but, like, do you do you know for a fact like,

58:42

she's not helping, like, long

58:44

term policy

58:46

reform in

58:46

criminal justice. I think if you I

58:48

know enough about

58:49

prison and police abolition to understand the

58:51

long term goal is to ultimately get

58:53

to abolish the police and prisons. Right?

58:55

That's the ultimate goal

58:57

part of doing that is

59:00

redistributing our funds less from

59:02

the police and military and more

59:05

towards healthcare, schools, jobs

59:08

housing. I don't know beyond her

59:10

like freeing some people from prison and

59:12

like saying that she wants to do more

59:14

of that. I think what she's doing is sort of like

59:16

individualizing a lot of

59:17

of the issue where she's like she's really

59:19

like this person, this person, this

59:21

person, so she's curating,

59:23

like, characters out of these people of, like, this person

59:26

deserves to be free. So then she's still

59:28

buying into

59:28

this narrative that, like, some people deserve to

59:30

be in prison, some people don't, Some people

59:32

made these choices and other people don't. And she so she doesn't fully

59:35

understand the reason we have jails,

59:37

the reason we have prisons, or

59:39

like

59:39

the entire mindset of it.

59:42

perpetuating the system.

59:44

So

59:44

I don't know what specifically,

59:48

her organization is doing towards, like, the

59:50

long term goal. But I know there's a lot

59:52

of organizations that are working I know.

59:53

Okay. So you'll

59:56

love them a point that you guys have both made. But how is it

59:58

against? How does it go against?

59:59

Because her ultimate goal isn't, like, prison

1:00:02

police abolition. It's

1:00:04

to, like, get the people that she thinks deserves to be out of jail.

1:00:06

Out of jail. And also, I just wanna say, like, I'm

1:00:08

asking

1:00:08

these questions to, like, keep it interesting because

1:00:10

everyone shits on the Kardashian

1:00:13

all the time. Like, we know they're not perfect, but,

1:00:15

like, I think you made a really good point

1:00:17

about how, like, her gaining more power

1:00:19

through advocating for

1:00:22

criminal is bad because now she's gaining power in the

1:00:24

political space as well. If the effect

1:00:26

of that is helping a couple

1:00:28

people like along the way, do you think

1:00:30

that like the negative

1:00:32

benefits of her gaining political power

1:00:34

out way, the

1:00:35

positive work that she's doing in

1:00:38

the space. I think that's a really

1:00:40

tough question because it's like,

1:00:42

no. But I think we use that as an

1:00:44

excuse all the time to push

1:00:46

marginal

1:00:46

reform. The lesser of two evils -- Yeah. -- is,

1:00:49

like, the way that America

1:00:50

votes and the way America does everything,

1:00:52

and it's sort of, like,

1:00:54

a way that we justify

1:00:57

sort of, like, never making

1:00:59

an actual, like -- Radhika.

1:01:01

-- profound radical

1:01:02

change. Yeah. And so that's

1:01:04

a tough thing to answer. Like, that's hard because it's like, how do

1:01:07

you define positive game versus every

1:01:09

so many people would have

1:01:10

different definitions of that -- Yeah. --

1:01:13

to bring it back to, like, the cultist aspect.

1:01:16

I'm curious to know from from both of

1:01:18

you and maybe even I myself will weigh in,

1:01:20

what role

1:01:22

do we think Kim Kardashian should be playing

1:01:24

as an influencer in this

1:01:26

society in a way that would

1:01:28

make it a

1:01:30

live your life level cult instead of something more destructive.

1:01:32

Like, where should what should her lane

1:01:34

be? It's not my place to say

1:01:36

what they should do, but as

1:01:39

long as they're transparent about

1:01:42

where their wealth comes from, like where

1:01:44

they started their plastic surgery,

1:01:46

like all the things that make them who

1:01:48

they are, then their followers can make

1:01:49

an informed decision on choosing to

1:01:51

buy

1:01:51

their products or to do what they say. But

1:01:53

I don't think they would ever

1:01:55

do that because that completely shatters their brand

1:01:57

and image. Of course. Part of the whole

1:01:59

reason people buy into the

1:02:02

Kardashians is because they're these, like,

1:02:04

aspirational, like,

1:02:06

This is who I wanna be I have skinny

1:02:08

waist and huge ass giant

1:02:10

tits date, the hottest person,

1:02:14

have like, biracial children because now it's, like, cool to be

1:02:16

black. Their brand keeps them from

1:02:18

being themselves, which is, like, in

1:02:20

a way, I think that's

1:02:22

for them. Well, that's why I'm saying, like, my answer to that question that

1:02:24

the Kardashians can't exist anymore. Is

1:02:26

that that the Kardashians can exist anymore

1:02:28

because if tomorrow they decided to be

1:02:31

transparent, they would still have the following

1:02:33

that they have. They might just not have as heavy of an

1:02:36

influence because people would have

1:02:38

to understand like,

1:02:41

what they're getting themselves into, but it's like, I

1:02:43

think that's their most destructive aspect. I don't

1:02:45

think we can go back. I think if

1:02:47

even tomorrow they were like,

1:02:50

yeah, all this plastic surgery, and this is where we came like, the damage is done.

1:02:52

What do you think that they should Well, I power.

1:02:54

Like, in the smallest

1:02:56

in the smallest version of think

1:02:58

they should definitely not go into

1:03:01

any political situation. Yeah. I

1:03:03

think that in general that celebrity

1:03:05

shouldn't do that. I'm not defending politicians

1:03:08

by any means, but

1:03:08

I think the reason that someone

1:03:11

like Kim Kardashian, Bill

1:03:13

Gates, Elon Musk, all

1:03:14

of these people only reason power is of money, and

1:03:17

that money

1:03:17

means that they make decisions

1:03:20

for all

1:03:22

of us without us

1:03:24

weighing in on

1:03:24

them. But some of these decisions, like,

1:03:26

have ramifications for the whole world.

1:03:29

Like Bill Gates' decision about the

1:03:31

vaccines, like, affected who could get the COVID

1:03:33

vaccine? I agree. So I I mean, he's, like, best case scenario. Right?

1:03:35

I'm, like, not an insane person. This is

1:03:37

the thing. He's, like, we stand on

1:03:39

the same side. I'm

1:03:41

like, I agree with everything you're saying. I

1:03:44

just feel like we're already, like,

1:03:46

in this capitalist society.

1:03:48

I don't think that people

1:03:50

with money should have influence over politics, but that's just

1:03:52

the way it is and it's never But

1:03:54

I think we have to change that. Yeah. How do

1:03:56

we change

1:03:58

that? I think I don't think you can I don't I mean,

1:03:59

whole other conversation that could go on

1:04:02

forever. There's a really great academic

1:04:04

essay by Rosa Luxembourg. That's

1:04:06

reformer revolution.

1:04:08

and she says reform is the means revolution is the end.

1:04:10

People were

1:04:10

like, well, let's reform slavery. Let's reform

1:04:12

like, let's reform the monarchy.

1:04:15

Like, that was, like, this suggested

1:04:17

solution forever until there was a revolution to

1:04:19

get rid of it, and I think that is the ultimate

1:04:21

solution. I just have

1:04:21

to appreciate

1:04:24

how, like, this is an episode on the cult of the

1:04:26

Kardashians. It became about

1:04:28

capitalism and policy. And I think

1:04:30

that just really says a lot about

1:04:34

how cultistic society we live in that these boundaries

1:04:36

are so blurry and it's important to talk

1:04:38

about how blurry those boundaries have become. I would

1:04:40

like to lighten the mood a little bit

1:04:43

and play a game. The

1:04:52

game is

1:04:54

a Kardashian themed two truths in a lie. We'll

1:04:57

read three facts in scare quotes. One of

1:04:59

them is a lie, and you'll have to

1:05:01

identify which. Okay? When Courtney was

1:05:03

a teenager, she told her family that she wanted to

1:05:06

have enough kids one day

1:05:07

to start the cult. Kim was

1:05:08

denied a star on the Hollywood Walk

1:05:10

of Fame because she wasn't the right cat

1:05:12

to story

1:05:12

of celebrity. And Chloe One's competed on Donald

1:05:14

Trump's celebrity apprentice.

1:05:16

Is the second one, a

1:05:18

lie? Oh,

1:05:21

the first one. Really? The cold one. She

1:05:23

didn't say that. Yeah. The second one,

1:05:25

she was denied a star in the Hollywood

1:05:27

Walk of Fame. Spokes

1:05:30

were person for the Hollywood Walk of Fame told The New York Daily News in

1:05:32

twenty thirteen, we don't have a category

1:05:34

for reality stars. The committee, which

1:05:37

be happy to consider reality stars if and when they get

1:05:40

nominated to win an Emmy Oscar Grammy

1:05:42

or other major award. And, you

1:05:44

know, I that

1:05:46

makes sense because I feel like their

1:05:48

whole vendetta, like, on growing bigger

1:05:50

and bigger, is to, like, be

1:05:52

deemed like a certain category of silhouette. They wanna be taken

1:05:54

seriously. That's sort of for being, like, I'm gonna

1:05:56

work in There's so white. That's what's

1:05:58

being taken seriously. I'm, like,

1:05:59

you're literally billionaire

1:06:02

babes. Yeah. They're like, they'll they'll

1:06:04

they'll never they'll never have that. Yeah. And that's

1:06:06

the chip on her shoulder and all these

1:06:09

cult leaders have one. yeah, but I

1:06:11

think they're trying to get an Emmy with their new show and that's why there

1:06:13

was, like, an episode I'll tell you because

1:06:15

I watched it. Chris is, like, in

1:06:17

her office and

1:06:19

Chloe's, like, what

1:06:20

is that? Why you have an Emmy? And she's like, I bought it. Mhmm. She's

1:06:22

like, I bought the Emmy because you have

1:06:24

to fake it. So you can buy everything. and

1:06:27

then I think they're trying to get an like, a reality TV

1:06:30

Emmy from the Hulu show. I love

1:06:32

how you called that whole thing of

1:06:34

vendetta because I think you might have meant

1:06:36

crusade, but vendetta's an even better way

1:06:38

to describe it because there is, like,

1:06:40

the mental health of children.

1:06:42

There is an energy of vengefulness

1:06:44

behind everything they do so. Wow. That's the

1:06:46

one thing celebrities can't

1:06:48

buy coolness. Yeah. We can

1:06:50

always roast them on Twitter, and they can

1:06:53

never take that from us. Yeah. second two truths

1:06:55

in a lie. Here are your three, quote unquote, facts. Number

1:06:57

one. Kim only wears a bikini in

1:06:59

public when it's overcast

1:07:02

to hide her cellulite from paparazzi. Number

1:07:04

two, Kim Kardashian once admitted that she

1:07:06

hopes her daughters get plastic surgery so they can

1:07:08

look more related to her.

1:07:10

Number three,

1:07:12

Kim's last will and testament includes instructions about

1:07:14

how she wants her hair nails and makeup

1:07:16

done if she ever

1:07:17

becomes vegetable. Okay. I

1:07:19

really hope number two is a

1:07:22

lie.

1:07:22

Yeah. Okay. I'm like, that's even

1:07:24

fucked up for her. Yeah. The

1:07:26

last huge hits that a lot. One, the original purpose

1:07:28

of keeping up with the Kardashians was to drive

1:07:31

business to the family stores, Dash

1:07:33

and Smooch. Two, who

1:07:36

enters Chris Jenner's house has to sign an

1:07:38

NDA. Three, Chris's

1:07:40

birth name is actually spelled with a

1:07:43

c. The

1:07:45

first one is a

1:07:48

lie. I'm really

1:07:48

glad that you thought that the

1:07:50

first one was a lie because per

1:07:53

cultishness, the subject of this podcast. I think this highlights the fact

1:07:55

that, like, we think of cult leaders, even

1:07:57

cultish leaders like the Kardashians as

1:07:59

these evil

1:07:59

geniuses who

1:08:02

had master plan from the start. Yeah. But really, they're just

1:08:04

these opportunists who started just

1:08:06

being like, I wanna up the publicity

1:08:09

for my store and ended up ruling the world. Yeah. And

1:08:11

they say things like if you get to know you're not

1:08:14

asking the right person. Like and

1:08:16

because they literally opportunists and

1:08:18

they won't stop until, like, get what they want. And they'll never get what they want. And they'll never because they'll always

1:08:20

be something else that they can't have.

1:08:22

Yeah. I can't wait till, like, Elon Musk's

1:08:26

loads up the spaceship with all these people and they're like, we're

1:08:29

getting out of here and they didn't don't look up.

1:08:31

Yeah. A hundred percent. That's what's

1:08:33

Yeah. Thank you so much for being on this admittedly tense but

1:08:35

really productive episode. I know. these kinds of discussions. Yeah. I was I

1:08:37

was like, did I do I do I do

1:08:40

something wrong?

1:08:41

I

1:08:43

get heated. No. It fun for me. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed

1:08:46

it. I love I love this. Thank

1:08:48

god it was

1:08:50

you. If people wanna keep up with

1:08:52

your work. Where can they find you? Instagram is where

1:08:55

I mostly post up. Meg and dirty.

1:08:58

Should I spell

1:08:59

Yeah. Meiji INDURTI

1:09:01

and also my website, which is

1:09:03

megan dirtie dot com. And

1:09:06

she went at the New Yorker. Yes, you.

1:09:12

She's literate.

1:09:15

So, ISA out of

1:09:18

the

1:09:18

three cult categories

1:09:20

live your life.

1:09:23

Watch your back.

1:09:24

and get the fuck out.

1:09:26

What do you think about the cult of the Kardashians?

1:09:29

the you think about because the kardashians

1:09:31

I feel like since I've been playing devil's

1:09:33

avocado, everyone's gonna be like, you're gonna think it's a live, you're like, I think it's a watch

1:09:36

your back.

1:09:39

I mean, I literally watched their show on Hulu and

1:09:41

was influenced so much

1:09:43

by just one season --

1:09:45

Mhmm. -- their propaganda, their I

1:09:48

mean, if if they're

1:09:50

good at one thing, it's production baby kudos

1:09:52

to their producers because they know what they're doing.

1:09:54

Like, they really create like an engaging show that

1:09:58

makes you believe what they're saying. But I

1:09:59

think the reason I enjoyed it this season

1:10:02

was because it was like pretty much scripted.

1:10:04

Like, it's so fake, I watched it like

1:10:06

as though it was a scripted show. All of the arguments that you're making right now lend themselves

1:10:08

to my verdict, which would

1:10:10

be a get the book. out.

1:10:14

No. No. No. No. I think it's a watchier back. Hi. Hi. Watchier back.

1:10:17

Simply because I'm

1:10:20

in it.

1:10:22

Oh, that I don't

1:10:24

follow them. I don't not follow them to, like,

1:10:26

not hate, follow them. I literally just, like,

1:10:28

don't think about them. I don't

1:10:30

care about them. It's just, like,

1:10:33

I watched their show when I, like, was really tired

1:10:35

and hungry, and I just ordered a sandwich. No. I know. I I

1:10:37

don't watch or engage with

1:10:39

them either, but regarding

1:10:43

some of the points that we made with

1:10:45

our guests. They are inescapable. They aren't as

1:10:47

much like a black hole. But I feel

1:10:49

like if we were to give them, like,

1:10:51

a get the fuck out society would be, like,

1:10:53

already so much more fucked than it is. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like

1:10:55

it's unfair to get really to be a get the

1:10:57

fuck out, I think they would have

1:10:59

to start, like, scamming

1:11:02

people for their money, like putting people in,

1:11:04

like, literal danger that, like,

1:11:07

wasn't on purpose. On purpose. I

1:11:09

think they are actually putting a lot

1:11:11

of people in danger from a

1:11:13

distance. Yeah. No. I don't

1:11:15

think that

1:11:17

they

1:11:18

are intentionally biologically

1:11:20

hurting anyone, but I think they

1:11:22

are so ignorant or in denial

1:11:24

of the power that they

1:11:27

wield, much of which happens

1:11:30

to have extremely destructive consequences that I think it's a net negative,

1:11:32

but just because

1:11:35

it's a negative and agree.

1:11:37

I think it's negative. But I don't think that makes them

1:11:39

like get the fuck out. I think it was funny when you said I think it's a watch your back because I'm

1:11:41

in it. And I and I know

1:11:43

it was a joke,

1:11:46

but I think that actually does

1:11:48

highlight the fact that it is

1:11:50

a whole lot harder to evaluate a

1:11:53

group that you engage with because

1:11:55

you want to, you know, sort of justify your engagement

1:11:57

with it. I will say there

1:11:59

are nuances

1:11:59

though. I think their

1:12:02

kids,

1:12:02

their get the

1:12:03

fuck out. I think the family

1:12:06

is get the fuck out. If a family has like that much power and influence over you, it's like

1:12:12

not healthy. and unless they literally are having these

1:12:14

conversations with their kids being like, you don't have to do this, you don't

1:12:16

have to be

1:12:19

in the then it is really dangerous

1:12:21

to, like, put your kids

1:12:22

on this, like, platform, like, on this level

1:12:25

of a platform. You

1:12:27

know? I do. I do. And I agree that the stakes

1:12:29

are are higher for the children because

1:12:31

they're in actual, like,

1:12:34

physical proximity to these people. But the reason why I'm

1:12:36

leaning get the fuck out

1:12:38

is because I think everyone's

1:12:41

life would improve if we boycotted

1:12:43

the Kardashians. I think someone else would take their place.

1:12:45

I think that's kind of fatalistic because the

1:12:48

Kardashians I think

1:12:51

are special. Hi. I do think they're special

1:12:53

but I also know that, like, historically, they're not the only ones who have, like,

1:12:56

stolen from

1:12:58

com like, black

1:12:59

or brown culture. You know? Like, oh, definitely, we haven't

1:13:01

been doing that for generation. Think of the

1:13:03

scale. Think of the scale. No

1:13:05

one else would have done that. I don't I I don't

1:13:08

believe that necessarily and fatalistically

1:13:10

someone else would have built

1:13:12

the cult that

1:13:15

the Kardashians have built. But it is

1:13:17

hard to say. It is impossible to say. And I

1:13:19

think it's alright to land on a slightly mismatched verdict. No.

1:13:21

It's literally not landing

1:13:23

this right now. No.

1:13:26

We are trying to get right now. We will this

1:13:28

episode is sent to you.

1:13:30

This is obviously incredibly subjective

1:13:33

subject matter. Yeah. in the way that you said, I

1:13:35

think it's a wash your back because I'm in it. It's easy

1:13:38

enough for me to say it to get the fuck out

1:13:40

because I

1:13:42

actively dislike it. to -- Yeah. -- you actively like dislike it. Yeah. You actively dislike

1:13:44

it. I guess there's the different levels of

1:13:46

followers -- Yeah. -- and different levels

1:13:48

of, like, being a part of the cult. Like, if

1:13:50

we're talking about society in general. I think society should watch their

1:13:53

back. Yes. It's it's not the sort of

1:13:55

thing where the Kardashians need to

1:13:57

be banished to Siberia and

1:13:59

and should be like, imprisoned

1:14:01

in the way that Keith Reniri was imprisoned. Yeah. I just think we just need to be more

1:14:03

aware and I think we are getting there because

1:14:06

people are becoming like more

1:14:09

cognizant of the fact that celebrities are

1:14:11

not religious spiritual self

1:14:13

help geniuses. Yeah. I

1:14:16

think everyone just,

1:14:18

like, needs to be aware that, like, of the

1:14:21

consequences of, like, what they their takes.

1:14:23

Of the cult like influence

1:14:25

that exists everywhere, you know, fair

1:14:27

enough. High, high, high, high level watch

1:14:29

your back against you. Okay. High, high

1:14:32

level watch your

1:14:32

back. That is our show. Thanks for

1:14:35

listening. We're gonna be back in a new call next week. In the meantime, stay but

1:14:37

not too

1:14:40

cold fees.

1:14:48

sounds like a cult is

1:14:49

created hosted and produced by Amanda Montel and Lisa Medina. Kate Elizabeth

1:14:51

is our

1:14:52

editor.

1:14:55

Our podcast Studio is all things music is by case of

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Coldb. Thank you to our intern slash

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1:15:02

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1:15:16

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