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This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.

2:27

When Valerie and I talked to you

2:29

said, it takes 10 years to feel

2:31

like a normal person after you leave. Literally

2:34

10 years. And I think it

2:36

can take a long time to even unpack,

2:38

like, what it is that has affected you

2:40

about ballet. And I think some of what

2:43

can affect you is realizing that you didn't

2:45

have a normal childhood and you

2:47

didn't have certain psychosocial development that other

2:49

kids get to have. This

2:52

is Sounds Like a Cult, a show

2:54

about the modern day cults we all

2:57

follow. I'm your host, Amanda Montel, author

2:59

of the books Cultish and the brand

3:01

new book, The Age of Magical Overthinking,

3:04

Notes on Modern Irrationality, which is out

3:06

now. You can get it in hardback

3:08

ebook, audiobook. I recorded it myself. Super

3:10

proud of it. If you like it.

3:13

Every week on the show, you're

3:15

going to hear about a different

3:17

symmetrical fringe group or guru from

3:19

the cultural side guys, from chiropractors

3:21

to homeschooling, from galassier to goop,

3:24

which we discuss and analyze and

3:26

make little jokes about, to try

3:28

and answer the big question. This group

3:30

sounds like a cult. What is it really? And

3:39

if so, how bad is it? Is it

3:41

a live your life? A watch your back?

3:44

Or it gets the fuck out, little cults?

3:46

After all, cultishness is not always equally destructive.

3:48

Sometimes it's cute. Sometimes it's really, really bad.

3:51

Today's cult of the week. Ooh, it

3:53

is a juicy one, a much requested topic

3:55

and one that is endlessly fascinating to me. Today

3:58

we're talking about the cult of the. Ballet.

4:01

Oh, this is one of these

4:03

cults that has sent me down YouTube

4:05

rabbit holes Instagram rabbit holes it's one

4:07

of those cult like spaces that I

4:10

know I will never be a part of because

4:12

I have two frickin left feet line dancing is

4:14

the only type of dance that I Can do

4:16

and because I know it will never accept me.

4:18

I am thus Enraptured

4:20

by it drawn to it. I

4:22

watch YouTube videos of Russian Valorinas

4:25

like breaking their bodies pushing their

4:27

bodies to the extreme these like

4:29

gorgeous tortured women Because I'm

4:32

terrified of ballet and I also

4:34

admire it. I'm mesmerized by it

4:37

Oh, what a good topic for sounds

4:39

like a cult. I'm excited to get

4:41

into the episode But before we do

4:43

I did want to mention real quick

4:45

that not only is my new book

4:47

the age of magical overthinking out But

4:50

I just launched a brand new podcast

4:52

to go with it It's called magical

4:54

overthinkers and I'm doing that simultaneously along

4:56

with sounds like a cult It is

4:58

a podcast for thought spirals exploring the

5:00

buzzy confounding subjects. We can't stop overthinking

5:02

about from narcissism to

5:05

polyamory to social media comparison

5:07

to cannibalism There's also like a

5:10

little advice section at the end

5:12

of every episode where I provide

5:14

an actionable tidbit of wisdom for

5:16

how we over thinkers can get

5:18

out of our own heads that

5:20

week the show just Premiered and

5:22

I would love you culties to

5:24

subscribe check it out Our first

5:26

episode is called overthinking about narcissism.

5:29

I interviewed the narcissism scholar. Dr.

5:31

Romani I'm gonna link both my

5:33

book and the new podcast in

5:35

the show notes here But back

5:37

to this episode the cult

5:39

of ballet stick around

5:41

because we have such a wonderful

5:44

Guest host joining us in a bit. Her name

5:46

is Erica Lance She is

5:48

an award-winning audio producer and reporter who

5:51

also grew up a pretty serious ballet

5:53

dancer and made a whole podcast About

5:56

the sort of cult like

5:58

atmosphere of ballet called The

6:00

Turning, which you should definitely check out.

6:03

But before we get into it with

6:05

Erika and all of her personal experiences

6:07

and her expert analysis, I wanted to

6:09

give a little bit of history and

6:11

background because this is truly one of

6:14

those cults that seems like, eh, how

6:16

bad could it be on the surface

6:18

until you peek behind the veil, behind

6:20

the curtain, behind the proscenium stage?

6:26

Okay, let's go way back in time

6:28

here. According to a piece published by

6:30

the Pittsburgh Ballet Theater titled A Brief

6:32

History of Ballet, ballet emerged at the

6:35

height of the Italian Renaissance in the

6:37

15th century. It was fancy

6:39

from the beginning. It was

6:41

Italiano. Initially, ballet was just

6:44

taught to nobility by dance masters,

6:46

and it was intended to be

6:48

performed at formal events like weddings.

6:51

Catherine de' Medici, wife of King

6:53

Henry II and patron of the

6:55

arts, funded ballet in the French

6:58

court, Ballet Mami, thank you, gracie.

7:00

About a century later, King Louis

7:02

IV, who was a dancer himself,

7:05

would popularize the art form even

7:07

further. By the 19th century, ballet

7:09

was ascending to previously unseen levels

7:12

of popularity and, at the same

7:14

time, exclusivity, partially due to the creation

7:16

of narrative ballet. So most of the

7:18

ballets that those of us outside the

7:20

cult are somewhat familiar with, including Swan

7:23

Lake and the Nutcracker, it was all

7:25

the rage in those 1800s. It was

7:28

the love is blind of the moment.

7:30

This is also around the time when

7:32

point was heavily implemented, you know, when

7:35

the poor dancers have to stand up

7:37

on their tippy toes on a block

7:39

of fucking wood.

7:41

So painful. But it really wasn't

7:43

until the early 20th

7:45

century when the cultish aspects of

7:48

ballet that I think popped to

7:50

mind for most of us, the

7:52

unbelievable dedication, the elitism, the body

7:55

standards really came to the fore,

7:57

and that was thanks to the

8:00

the arguable cult leader of this whole

8:02

frickin' shebang, George Balanchine. He was now

8:04

dead, he died in the 80s, so

8:06

we can talk shit about him and

8:09

he won't sue us. I'm kidding, no

8:11

I'm not. So George Balanchine, major

8:13

cult figure in the ballet world, the

8:16

ballet that we all know or at

8:18

least are somewhat familiar with today would

8:20

not exist without this motherfucker. He was

8:23

a Russian dancer and choreographer who moved

8:25

to New York and founded the infamous,

8:27

prestigious School of American Ballet in 1934,

8:30

the school train dancers for the New

8:32

York City Ballet. This is the elite

8:34

of the elite, the creme de la

8:36

creme. The New York City Ballet

8:38

was also founded by George Balanchine a little bit later

8:40

in 1948. It

8:43

is widely known that George Balanchine

8:45

had the perfect storm of cult leader

8:47

traits. The dude had this filter

8:50

list to him. He spoke his mind

8:52

and was proud of it. He was

8:54

arrogant, he was dominating. He was talented,

8:56

legitimately, so that's a plot twist for

8:59

a cult leader. And

9:01

he was the pioneer of a

9:03

new style of ballet called

9:06

the Neo-Classical style. So

9:08

many former School of American

9:11

Ballet dancers have come forward

9:13

and described George Balanchine as

9:15

a cult leader separately. A

9:17

dancer named Alexandra Waterbury said

9:19

in an interview with The

9:21

Guardian, literally titled, It's like

9:23

a cult, that George Balanchine

9:25

was like a god. She

9:27

mentioned how sexual misconduct permeated

9:29

the world of ballet. George

9:31

Balanchine is credited with having

9:33

invented the concept of ballet

9:35

muses. And he was known

9:37

for having inappropriate and coercive

9:39

relationships with incredibly young dancers

9:42

who idol-worshipped him. Here's

9:44

a creepy fun fact. Several

9:46

of these sources from The

9:48

Guardian piece noted that Balanchine

9:50

would assign different perfume scents

9:52

to his favorite dancers so

9:54

he could track their whereabouts

9:56

in any given theater. Better

9:59

smell! This

10:01

woman named Madison Mainwaring, who's a

10:03

scholar of 19th century literature and

10:05

cultural history, recently published a write-up

10:07

in The New Republic about a

10:09

former School of American ballet dancer

10:11

named Alice Robb who wrote a

10:13

memoir called Don't Sink Dear on

10:15

Loving and Leaving Ballet. This write-up

10:17

was called The Struggle to Save

10:19

Ballet from Itself. And she wrote

10:21

about how, even though Robb wasn't

10:23

trained by Balanchine himself but rather

10:26

his equally sketchy successor Peter Martin,

10:28

she could feel his godlike presence

10:30

not only in the way that

10:32

she danced but in the way

10:34

that she lived her life. Balanchinian

10:36

teachings were so entrenched. Alice Robb

10:39

said that this adherence to his

10:41

methods led her to waste her

10:43

younger years and I quote, in

10:45

thrall to a deceased cult leader.

10:48

That is how powerful this man was. His

10:50

cultural critic, Mainwaring, noted in

10:52

the piece that most Balanchine

10:54

ballerinas wind up post-retirement as

10:56

and I quote, vessels of

10:58

his technique living to teach

11:00

his methods. Almost like those

11:03

remaining Nexium followers dancing outside

11:05

the prison cell of Keith

11:07

Ranieri. Alice

11:10

Robb wrote an article herself for Vogue titled,

11:12

My Whole Life Was Ballet, What Did It

11:14

Mean to Give It Up? And in it

11:16

she said, this will always be his institution

11:19

even if he's been dead for 20 years.

11:22

This motherfucker was so powerful that he

11:24

continues to haunt the ballet world. So

11:27

I'm fucking foaming at the mouth for

11:29

you to hear my conversation with Erika.

11:32

But first let's move through a little

11:34

analyzing, a little unpacking of some of

11:36

the cultiest qualities of the ballet world.

11:39

I asked our Sounds Like a Cult

11:42

listeners on Instagram what culty stereotypes of

11:44

ballet dancers first come to mind for

11:46

them. And I swear to

11:48

God like 90% of the responses had

11:50

to do with eating disorders. And this

11:53

is a stereotype for a reason. And

11:56

it's again because of George Balanchine.

11:59

So many dancers. including Alice Robb, have

12:01

claimed that the dude was not

12:03

shy about criticizing his dancers' bodies,

12:05

going so far as to prod

12:07

their bodies and tell them that

12:09

in order for him to be

12:11

happy, he must see the bones.

12:13

And naturally, this resulted in these

12:15

super unhealthy, extreme caloric restriction diets

12:17

for many ballerinas, which became a

12:19

whole part of the culture. There

12:21

was a 1987 book called The

12:23

Dancer's Body Book, which recommended a

12:25

500-calorie diet for ballet

12:27

dancers. How you're

12:29

expected to frickin' triple pirouette on

12:32

that little I will never understand. According

12:34

to an eating disorder specialist named Michelle

12:36

Warren, the rate of eating disorders for

12:38

dancers is 20 times

12:41

higher than the general

12:43

population. And some have

12:45

explicitly noted that the

12:47

attention that these ballerina

12:49

starvation diets attracted served

12:51

as inspiration for

12:54

later super controlling cults

12:56

like Nexium, whose leader

12:58

Keith Ranieri also put

13:00

his young women followers on

13:02

similar starvation diets. Controlling female

13:05

members' food intake is a

13:07

not totally uncommon cult tactic,

13:09

and some have claimed that

13:12

the ballet world is partially

13:15

responsible for that. But what

13:17

makes the ballet world complicated

13:19

is, of course, it's not

13:21

just torture. It is

13:23

a beautiful art form. It provides

13:26

people with such an incredible sense

13:28

of meaning. For many dancers, the

13:31

suffering at the hands of institutions

13:33

like the School of American Ballet

13:35

was simply the price they were

13:37

willing to pay for getting to

13:40

lose themselves in this art form

13:42

at such a transcendent high level.

13:44

Alice Robb wrote, even as the

13:46

trappings of ballet, the competition, the

13:48

impossible physical standards, the punishing hours

13:51

can be a source of profound

13:53

anxiety and distress. Ballet itself, the

13:55

movement, the music, the choreography, is

13:57

simultaneously a salve for these emotions.

14:00

But the prices that some of

14:02

these schools require you to pay

14:05

are so expensive metaphorically, and

14:07

also literally, it begs the question, like, is

14:10

it really worth it? One

14:12

of the cultiest things pointed out

14:14

by that Guardian piece I mentioned

14:16

earlier is that ballet permeates the

14:18

identity of its dancers so hardcore

14:20

that even after they leave the

14:22

quote unquote cult, they've never really

14:25

been able to cultivate a sense

14:27

of self, a sense of boundaries,

14:29

a sense of care for their own

14:31

bodies and minds. This piece pointed out

14:33

that dancers are rarely encouraged to seek

14:35

education outside of these studios. You're

14:38

expected to sacrifice everything for the

14:40

honor of becoming an elite ballet

14:42

dancer. Obviously, ballet schedules are ridiculously

14:44

demanding, even if you're not at

14:46

the highest levels. I mean,

14:48

I took ballet as a kid up until the

14:50

eighth grade, and there was this pride in torturing

14:52

yourself or pushing yourself to the brink, dancing hours

14:55

and hours and hours every week, even if you

14:57

were like me and you weren't even good. Even

15:00

more than in the cult of feeder

15:02

kids, I'd say in ballet, there is

15:04

this incredibly cult like standard that tells

15:06

you that the only way to have

15:09

a shot at making it is to

15:11

devote your life completely to it. So

15:14

before we get into it with Erica,

15:16

I think we do need to linger

15:18

a little bit more on this subject

15:20

of sexual abuse in ballet because it

15:23

is such a profound part of what

15:25

makes this industry culty. That dancer Alexander

15:27

Waterbury spoke to the Guardian about a

15:29

lawsuit that she filed against both the

15:31

New York City Ballet and the dancer

15:34

Chase Finley, by whom Waterbury was allegedly

15:36

sexually assaulted. She explained that she sued

15:38

the New York City Ballet because she

15:40

believes they perpetuate a culture that fosters

15:43

assaults like hers in the name

15:45

of, and I quote, protecting an

15:47

image and prolonging the lineage of

15:49

someone like George Balanchine. This piece

15:51

talked about how so many ballet

15:53

greats like Anthony Tudor and Jerome

15:55

Robbins were known for unsavory and

15:57

sometimes violent conduct towards women. gender

16:00

dynamics of this whole thing literally mirror

16:02

the gender dynamics of a group like

16:04

the Manson Family. Indeed, although ballet is

16:07

dominated by women in terms of like

16:09

number of dancers, the power is held

16:11

mostly by men. They choreographed 80% of

16:13

the work performed by America's 50 largest

16:16

companies from 2018 to 2020. That's

16:19

a fucking wild stat. I

16:21

struggle to think of another

16:24

industry, maybe modeling, but not

16:26

even, that has like such

16:28

fucked up dynamics where those

16:30

who are worshipped and also profiting

16:32

are men, but almost everyone who's

16:34

worshiping them and creating those profits

16:36

are women. This is the last

16:39

thing I'll say here. In

16:41

a truly chilling account of her experiences

16:43

with assault in the ballet industry, actor

16:46

and former dancer Suvi Honkinen wrote in

16:48

a ballet blog titled Ballet with Isabella

16:50

about a director that she declines to

16:53

name saying, and I quote, that she

16:55

lived in the understanding that this was

16:57

all because he wanted to help me,

17:00

but it wasn't long until I got the

17:02

feeling that I owed him something. I just

17:04

didn't know what. However, my blind trust and

17:06

belief that it was all for my own

17:09

good made me compliant and silent. And

17:11

I endured psychologically abusive behavior for

17:13

years before questioning any of it,

17:15

telling myself maybe I imagined it

17:17

all. Maybe nothing happened. Maybe I

17:19

was just too inexperienced and dramatic.

17:22

Maybe I shouldn't trust myself. This

17:24

is a woman who's talking about ballet.

17:27

It sounds like she's talking about a

17:29

cult. Now we try not to be

17:31

too sensationalist on Sounds Like a Cult,

17:33

believe it or not. So I do

17:35

want to give some space to acknowledge

17:37

the positives and the beauty that exist

17:40

within ballet. They are there,

17:42

no doubt about it. So please

17:44

prepare for a nuanced, balanced conversation

17:46

with my very special guest host

17:48

today. Please welcome former

17:50

dancer and audio extraordinaire, Erica Linn. And

17:59

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Then find and book a top

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rated doctor today. That's c-o-c-d-o-c.com/cult. zachdok.com/cult.

20:20

Hi Erica. This has been kind of a long

20:22

time coming, I feel. Yes.

20:25

Thank you so much for your patience, by the

20:27

way. No, truly. Thank you. Could

20:30

you please introduce yourself and your work

20:32

to our listeners and how you're connected

20:34

to the cult of ballet? My name

20:36

is Erica and I host another podcast

20:38

called The Turning and season two is

20:40

called The Turning Room with Mirrors and

20:42

it's all about ballet. My personal background

20:44

is I grew up studying ballet, got

20:46

really into it, took it very seriously.

20:48

It was kind of the focus of

20:50

my life until my mid teens when

20:53

I ended up quitting and then I

20:55

didn't really think about it for almost

20:57

20 years and then I made this

20:59

podcast where I reentered that world. Oh

21:01

man. I think about ballet all

21:03

the time for someone who did

21:05

ballet for five minutes when I was a

21:07

little kid, quickly proved myself terrible at it

21:09

and then remained obsessed with it ever since.

21:12

It's like the one that got away, like I couldn't, I'm

21:15

like flat footed and was obsessed

21:17

with ballerinas. One of my

21:19

top YouTube searches whenever I like click

21:21

in to waste three hours watching random

21:24

shit online is ballet and ballerinas. I

21:26

just like love to watch those little

21:28

ladies torture themselves. There's

21:31

something that ballet just draws people in that

21:33

way. It is something that like when you're

21:35

not in it, you can have this fascination

21:37

with it and it's interesting how you put

21:39

that like watching these ladies torture themselves because

21:41

I think weirdly there's this

21:43

morbid fascination that people have with

21:45

the pain that is part of

21:47

ballet too. Literally. Like when

21:50

I watch ballerina vlogs or documentaries,

21:52

who makes those little fake documentaries

21:54

on YouTube and just uploads them?

21:57

I don't know. But whenever I'm

21:59

like. on like ballet tube fully,

22:01

my body feels like it's watching true crime.

22:03

Yes, because you're like, how are their bodies

22:06

doing that? What what is happening? And when

22:08

I was interviewing people for this project, and

22:10

these are people in the in the industry

22:12

ballet compared ballerinas to aliens in terms of

22:14

how they're perceived by the rest of us,

22:17

because they're able to do things with their

22:19

bodies that can feel incomprehensible if you can't

22:21

do them yourself. And all you can think

22:23

is mad. Doesn't that hurt? Yeah,

22:26

and their makeup is aliengelic

22:28

and shiny. Okay, so to

22:30

kick us off, when I say

22:32

the cult of ballet thinking about

22:35

it through that lens, what qualities

22:37

instantly pop to mind for you?

22:39

Well, there is definitely ingrained in

22:41

ballet culture, a sense of

22:43

reverence for authority, and a singular

22:45

person of authority, usually whoever is

22:48

in front of the room, and

22:50

that can continue to go up

22:52

this chain of authority up to

22:54

the big directors, the big choreographers

22:56

in the field. When

22:58

I think of the cult of ballet, because

23:00

of this podcast that I made about

23:02

ballet, I think right away of George

23:04

Balanchine, because we ended up focusing on

23:06

him as this unusually large figure in

23:09

ballet who cast the shadow on the

23:11

art form to this day, even though

23:13

he's no longer alive. And he constantly

23:16

is compared to a god in ballet,

23:18

he's like the Shakespeare of ballet. And

23:21

if you know a choreographer's name, and

23:23

you're not in ballet, it's probably George

23:25

Balanchine. The father, the son, the holy

23:27

Balanchine. Yes, exactly.

23:30

You get it. I watched Center Stage.

23:33

Actually, well, I mean, I don't know

23:35

what was going on in the 90s,

23:37

but like, that whole slew of movies

23:39

from Center Stage to Save the Last

23:41

Dance, all the way to I feel

23:43

like Step Up really birthed a generation

23:45

of people who romanticized, okay, I guess

23:47

Step Up isn't about ballet, but you

23:49

know what I'm saying, like, the sort

23:51

of like rebel ballerina, who didn't want

23:53

to be that girl. Absolutely. And I

23:55

remember watching those movies at like, slumber

23:57

parties with my fellow ballet school students.

24:00

students and just watching

24:02

them over and over again. Totally

24:04

to like re-indoctimate yourself. Okay, so

24:06

George Valenshin is God. So tell

24:09

me more about that power hierarchy.

24:11

Well, he really had inordinate power

24:13

over his dancers and

24:16

it's connected to this belief in this like

24:18

higher power and higher purpose where

24:21

dance and ballet takes on this religiosity

24:23

that's very extreme. And I totally get

24:25

it because when you are dancing you

24:27

feel like you're connecting to something higher

24:29

and it's an amazing feeling. There are

24:31

these high highs and then come these

24:33

low lows. And he

24:35

really wanted his dancers to

24:37

commit fully in body and

24:39

spirit. He didn't want his dancers

24:42

to be dating. He didn't want his dancers to have

24:44

children. Oh my God, it's

24:46

like monk-like almost. Absolutely,

24:48

one of the dancers, actually

24:50

multiple people I interviewed who were ballet dancers compared

24:52

it to being a nun, especially

24:54

from that era. And like if you

24:56

were dating someone, you tried to hide

24:59

it from him and he wanted to

25:01

control how their bodies looked and would

25:03

comment on their bodies very explicitly telling

25:05

them they need to lose weight, which

25:07

leads to controlling kind of what they're

25:09

eating, how they're spending their time. And

25:11

there is this ideal of showing fervor

25:14

to prove how much you love ballet.

25:16

One person I interviewed was like, it's not just that you wanna

25:18

do these impossibly difficult combinations

25:21

because he was known for that, like asking

25:23

dancers to do something that should be impossible

25:25

and kind of testing them to see if

25:27

they'll go for it, even though it's impossible.

25:29

And it's like, not only do you wanna

25:32

show that you're willing to do it, but

25:34

you wanna show that you have this fervor

25:36

around doing it for him. And that would

25:38

be like a way to prove your devotion.

25:40

Oh my God, so there's so much at

25:43

play here. There's like the very real physiological

25:45

thing of you're pushing your body to its

25:47

breaking point. You're experiencing pain, but you're also

25:49

experiencing the incredible endorphins and dopamine

25:51

release from performing and from

25:54

like nailing a routine. But

25:56

then also there's the sort

25:58

of like. psychosocial aspect

26:00

made even more intense by this godlike

26:02

figure. So was George Balanchine, in your

26:05

opinion, like one of the first figures

26:07

to make ballet like a full cult

26:09

or did he just like bring it

26:11

to the next level? I

26:14

don't think he's the first person by any means. I think

26:16

he brought it to another level and he also brought it

26:18

to another level in this country. And also

26:20

he made it a cultural phenomenon here in the United

26:22

States. I mean, he made it so that ballet was

26:24

something you'd regularly see on TV. It was a phenomenon

26:27

then way that it isn't today. And

26:29

it was like a center of the New York art

26:31

scene. I mean, ballet still is,

26:33

but like to another level back then. What era

26:35

are we talking about, by the way, just for

26:37

context? 50s, 60s, 70s. Oh,

26:40

50s, 60s, 70s by no coincidence,

26:43

a peak cult era. There you

26:45

go. Some people are on like

26:47

a compound dancing in

26:49

a circle doing ayahuasca and

26:51

some people are on point.

26:54

Absolutely. I mean, he grew

26:56

up in Russia where he went to

26:58

a boarding school that was completely devoted

27:00

to ballet. And like all of the

27:02

other students were learning ballet and they

27:04

had a very militaristic schedule waking up

27:06

at a certain time. And that was

27:08

your entire life and was living in

27:10

the theater and doing this. And he

27:12

brought that cultural expectation to the United

27:14

States and added his own twist. Right.

27:18

Okay. So obviously like we're talking

27:20

about the power structure. We're talking

27:22

about the hierarchy that George Balanchine

27:24

created and exacerbated. But

27:26

can you further break down the industry

27:29

in terms of who holds power?

27:31

Like I was a theater kid, which

27:33

is like ballet adjacent, but theater kids

27:35

are so sloppy and kids do ballet

27:37

or so like they have their shit

27:39

tight. But I remember going

27:42

to like a theater program at Lincoln Center

27:44

one summer and we shared dorms with the

27:46

SAB kids. Oh wow. I was in the

27:48

school of American ballet for those who don't

27:50

know, but like I was totally in awe

27:52

of them. I was like, what happens when

27:54

my dog sees a horse? Like I would

27:56

just like bow down to them. Like I

27:58

was so in awe of them. them. So

28:00

I knew that like the School of

28:02

American Ballet was a big deal. And

28:05

I also went to performing arts school.

28:07

So like, I heard of the Joffrey

28:09

and whatever. But are there certain like

28:11

ballet schools, ballet companies that are like

28:14

cults within cults? And who are the

28:16

leaders throughout the industry? Mm hmm. So

28:19

School of American Ballet is the

28:21

classic example. And yes, going away

28:24

for the summer and getting into

28:26

this impossibly difficult and selective program

28:28

to move into dorms. And suddenly,

28:30

your whole life is ballet and you're a

28:32

teenager or younger, your kid. And what

28:36

then often happens is at the end of

28:38

the summer, you might get an offer to

28:40

stay on. And so then you move to

28:43

New York as a kid and leave your

28:45

family behind. And suddenly, your whole world is

28:47

ballet. And I think there's that cult like

28:49

aspect that's built into the industry where you

28:52

suddenly are giving up everything else to

28:54

become a ballerina. And it's

28:56

your whole world. So it's a lot harder to

28:58

leave, you know, if all of your friends you

29:00

leave your family behind, and it's the only cultural

29:02

input that you have. And it creates this pipeline

29:05

where certain notions of authority are very normalized, you

29:07

don't know anything else. And when you get your

29:09

first job in the industry, you

29:11

have no context for what is an okay

29:13

boundary to cross and what's not all you

29:15

know is you don't speak up in class,

29:17

you're supposed to remain quiet, listen to corrections,

29:19

do as you're told, and you learn to

29:21

smile through the pain. That's something

29:24

that's really pounded in. Oh my

29:26

god, it's like, in what other

29:28

context is it not only okay,

29:30

but fully celebrated to have a

29:32

bunch of children going through intense

29:34

physical torture, bowing to like a

29:37

Russian dictator separate from their parents.

29:39

And we're like, not only is

29:41

this fine, we love this, like

29:43

we stand this these kids are

29:45

special. I mean, it is so

29:47

unbelievably cold like the parallels truly

29:50

bananas because in cults, often Mistreatment

29:52

is passed off as special treatment

29:55

because you're a part of this

29:57

exclusive larger than life higher. Embrace

30:00

and group And that's like

30:02

exactly. What you're describing is it's

30:04

about it. Except this. Yes, one

30:07

person I interviewed for the podcast

30:09

research with Howard said it's mythologizing

30:11

trauma for the. Arts Who

30:13

might Die. As.yes and I

30:15

village. You know there is a

30:17

bit of this and other sort

30:20

of like high art forums that

30:22

train children from very very young

30:24

like intense classical pianist athletes to

30:27

like gymnasts or swimmers. but there's

30:29

something even more elite and like

30:31

Uzi and procedures and absolutely religious

30:34

about the ballet were own. It's

30:36

got like an. Extra Spicy.

30:38

Dramatically Greedy it is their.

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percent off your first purchase of

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a website or domain. Can

33:07

we talk a little bit more about like

33:09

your background? Can you talk about like how

33:12

you recruited into the Colts as ballet so

33:14

to speak and what your journey was in

33:16

the coal and getting out of it? Well,

33:18

I fell in love with dance basically before

33:21

I could walk practically and I used to

33:23

be dancing in my high chair. There's a

33:25

something so compelling about feeling like your body

33:27

is. Embodying. Music and I loved

33:30

it as a kid. And then of course my parents

33:32

took me to the Nutcracker when I was like a

33:34

toddler and I think that is the entered at all.

33:36

I have started with that Diana not drag or. It

33:40

is like a dreamscape but I came out of

33:42

that wanting to dance and I was is begging

33:44

begging begging begging to go to class. And finally

33:46

I did start when I was three and that's

33:48

the story of are so many people and you

33:50

get sucked in and you know actually now I

33:52

think of it. The Nutcracker helps keep you into

33:55

because one thing that colts do is like very

33:57

different levels you can get you and. you continue to

33:59

wanna get to the next level and it's like, oh,

34:01

if I just get to that next level, right? And

34:03

in ballet, there are levels. And then every year you're

34:05

in the nutcracker as a kid, starting from maybe age

34:07

eight. And you see all of the older

34:10

kids and all these parts and roles that you could

34:12

dance in future years of the nutcracker. And so, oh,

34:14

if I stay next year, maybe I'll get to dance

34:16

the Spanish dance, or maybe I'll get to be a

34:18

snowflake. And you can't help but want to do it.

34:21

Bullshit, because like, you're teaching

34:23

these children to aspire to

34:25

like the highest level

34:27

that they can achieve in life is

34:29

like dressing up as a mouse. But

34:33

the world is so insular that

34:35

like that becomes your highest life

34:37

goal. Okay, so you were like,

34:39

great nutcracker, I can't wait. And

34:41

then yes, how did your participation

34:43

in the call progress? Did you

34:45

notice red flags at any point?

34:47

I think I noticed red flags

34:49

when I just

34:51

was really sad a lot of the

34:53

time. And I

34:57

mean, I had to quit a lot of things

34:59

that I was doing to be dancing and I

35:01

didn't really want to leave them. And it just

35:03

felt I've had this like existential turmoil of why

35:05

am I giving up everything? Like I don't even

35:07

know if I want to be a professional dancer.

35:09

But this is the thing about ballet is you

35:11

have to commit at such a young age that

35:13

it's like, well, if you want any chance of

35:15

doing it, this is what we're told. People are

35:17

pushing back on this now. But you're told that

35:19

like, well, you have to go in all in

35:21

now because you can't like do it later. So

35:24

it's now or never. So suddenly you're fully committed.

35:26

But I think I was just torn because

35:28

I was like, I love a lot of things

35:30

and why is this taking over my life and

35:32

I was getting more and more secluded. I actually

35:34

started homeschooling for a while so that I could

35:36

focus more in ballet and so like my world

35:39

started shrinking. Yeah. And then I think my main

35:41

source of unhappiness was I mean, I loved dancing,

35:43

like I never disliked dancing. So that was a

35:45

source of joy for me. And not sure if

35:47

you're thinking about it. I loved it. But my

35:50

main source of unhappiness was my body image and

35:52

just hating my body. And I didn't even have

35:54

a very extreme example of that. But like it

35:56

fully took over my life. And all I can

35:59

think about that I didn't like

36:01

my body and that it needed a change,

36:03

but I still wasn't ready to leave. And

36:05

the only way I got out was I

36:07

had these very persistent recurring injuries that I'd

36:09

been seeing physical therapists for for years. And

36:12

one time the physical therapist said to me, we're

36:14

not seeing the improvement we need. I think you

36:17

should take the summer off of dance, like a

36:19

couple months off of dance. Maybe she said six

36:21

weeks. And at the time it felt

36:23

like, no, this is not true, but in my head

36:25

it felt like a career ender or just

36:28

a really big uphill climb because even

36:30

missing a day of ballet, I felt like I

36:32

got out of shape. Yeah. But the moment that

36:34

she said that I had to take that time

36:37

off, I instantly was like, oh, I'm never going

36:39

back. And I felt very happy

36:41

and relieved that the decision had been

36:43

made for me. That's what's so crazy

36:45

is that like sometimes you just need

36:47

someone on the outside to step in

36:49

and give you permission to leave. That

36:52

is why cults don't want you talking

36:54

to people on the outside. Even doctors,

36:56

especially doctors. Think about classic cults, you

36:58

know, like my dad grew up in a

37:01

cult where they didn't want you to go to the hospital. If

37:03

you needed testing done, it had to be

37:05

done like in the internal cult lab because

37:08

they didn't want someone like planting those things

37:10

in your mind. Like maybe this is not

37:12

healthy for you. I mean, what was that

37:14

like in terms of just the physical pain

37:17

and injury that you would endure? How were

37:19

you sort of coerced to push past that

37:21

in the cult of ballet? Well, I think you

37:23

just have to learn to have a high tolerance

37:25

to pain because a lot of the

37:27

things that you're doing are just like really difficult. Part

37:29

of it is in any sport when you're working out

37:32

and just doing something difficult, it hurts.

37:35

And so it can be hard to differentiate

37:37

between like, this is good pain and this

37:39

is actually dangerous pain. But once you start

37:41

dancing in pointe shoes, I mean, pointe shoes

37:43

are painful and your feet are

37:45

bleeding and they have blisters and why haven't they

37:47

invented a better pointe shoe? Are they just like

37:50

fucking with you all? Like, I know they could

37:52

invent, it's 2024. That's

37:54

a whole other rabbit hole of yes, we need

37:56

to have better pointe shoes. And Like, there's a

37:58

weird resistance to. Engine points you

38:00

that all there's this clinging to tradition.

38:03

Okay cause you know there's a lotta

38:05

shit and religion. Words like make sense

38:07

anymore like can we plan to flew

38:10

past it? build upon it that way

38:12

we could have more comfortable please use

38:14

probably Still not like com Scribble Boat

38:17

more comfortable and much safer point season

38:19

and. There. Are many factors who

38:21

are working on it but the

38:23

resistance is while to me because

38:25

pain as a barrier to entry

38:27

ray and then the longer you

38:29

experience this this I know because

38:31

of the book that I just

38:33

finished writing about cognitive biases. the

38:36

more you voluntarily endure pain the

38:38

more willing you are to justify

38:40

it. So like if you are

38:42

same building a cabinet and you

38:44

accidently get a splinter while building

38:46

the cabinets that's not gonna make

38:48

you appreciate the final product. Of the

38:50

cabinet anymore but if you are building the

38:52

cabinet. And. You volunteer to get

38:54

a splinter. When Mack Habit is done,

38:56

it's You're going to be like Zach

38:58

Habit is more beautiful because of the

39:01

pain that you volunteered to enter the

39:03

like. That is a bias that colts

39:05

explain that This call in particular is

39:07

exploiting. Hardcore is like they want you

39:09

to endure as much pain for as

39:11

long as possible. Because of that is

39:14

going to encourage you to justify all

39:16

those years and all that pain he

39:18

spends mind blown. Wow, that's incredible. And

39:20

hand it makes a lot of sense

39:22

because you. Are consistently making choices to

39:24

sacrifice for your art farm which again

39:27

is a beautiful art form for which

39:29

I love and which dancers love and

39:31

and mean. That's what's hard about it,

39:34

but it's It's kind of like this

39:36

trauma bonds that you develop a field

39:38

like an abusive relationship at times. Yeah.

39:41

Oh my gosh. Tell me more about the

39:43

trauma bond aspect is like you know of

39:45

course Sally as a beautiful art form, no

39:48

one would endure the rest of the bullshit

39:50

if it weren't like. that's the thing about

39:52

close as like there's gotta be something got

39:54

involved or else no one would fucking put

39:56

up with it. So how did the bond

39:58

that you developed with your fellow? the answers

40:00

keep you in Wyoming see it as like

40:02

the trauma bond with the art form were

40:04

in relation to the art form that you

40:06

don't wanna leave can use of tolerate those

40:09

other business. The

40:11

Us. I mean I guess that if

40:13

you're in it for longer, be going

40:15

to have more of the interpersonal violence

40:17

in that realm. And that's where you

40:20

end up with abuse of authority figures.

40:22

And that's where this extremely hierarchical groups

40:24

with an extreme difference in power between

40:26

this you who by the way are

40:29

usually men and. The many vast

40:31

majority of whom are women leads

40:33

to abusive situations. Whoa.

40:36

Yeah. Can you talk about

40:38

like some of the power abuse

40:40

that goes on in like super

40:42

competitive valley environments like what are we

40:44

talking Meyer Low in the cases

40:46

George Balanchine for example to go

40:48

back to him as as an

40:50

example he didn't want his dancers said

40:52

be dating but he dated many.

40:54

Many of his answers he slept

40:56

to them, had romantic relationships with them

40:59

and he married many of them

41:01

and he was their boss and

41:03

he was often decades and decades

41:05

older than them. And I

41:07

talked to one dancer who was trying

41:09

to come back to the company after

41:11

being away, was trying to get her

41:13

job back and in that office when

41:15

they are her job prospects at the

41:17

company he leaned over and sister. And

41:19

the thing about ballets at such a

41:22

romantic brasil in it is an art

41:24

form that it's very easy to not

41:26

feel like it's a normal workplace and

41:28

like you're just a bunch of artists

41:30

creating something together. It's a calling answer

41:32

though case. And but this is also

41:34

a man who has complete power. Over

41:36

whether you're going to be allowed to

41:38

pursue that collie any percent your romantically.

41:41

There have been a number of allegations

41:43

against people who are in powerful positions

41:45

and the ballet world's taking advantage of

41:48

that. Another. Thing that I

41:50

can't help but notice is called

41:52

to you. maybe not even in

41:54

a bad ways. This enough neutral

41:56

way of out valet is like

41:58

the sheer ritual that take. Place

42:00

like breaking in your point shoes and

42:02

placing them up a certain way. Like

42:05

can you recall any rituals that made

42:07

you feel special and really like furthered

42:09

that trauma bond with the art form?

42:11

Well I think ritual is definitely built

42:14

into ballet. I mean in when you're

42:16

in a ballet company you have company

42:18

class every morning and again I don't

42:21

see this is like a negative thing

42:23

necessarily that in that it can be

42:25

very centering for dancers like every night

42:28

you're performing. and you know maybe. Things

42:30

go badly. Maybe things go well. that's no

42:32

matter how low or how high you are

42:34

in the company are gonna show up in

42:36

the morning for company class Recenter and you're

42:38

gonna start with is very basic exercises that

42:40

you've been doing since you were eight years

42:42

old or younger than he can be reminding

42:44

you like you're just one of many hear

42:47

it can be helpful to like go back

42:49

to the basics can be really spiritual for

42:51

people. they could create a sense of the

42:53

company said it also like reaffirms your devotion

42:55

to the art form and your commitment to

42:57

add that like you will not miss a

42:59

day like. You're gonna go And by the

43:01

way usually and companies that classes optional and

43:04

so what you're saying about choice and how

43:06

you choose to go but also like it's

43:08

a choice but it's of expectation him the

43:10

illusion of choice right? But it in terms

43:13

of points you like you mentioned, Everly breaks

43:15

in their point is their own way and

43:17

that's something that kids get very had transpired

43:20

in adults you that like everyone breaks in

43:22

their twenties and their own way so that

43:24

it can mold to their foot in the

43:26

way that they need and that in it

43:29

and in of itself. Isn't like oh I

43:31

think a weird ritual but what it does you

43:33

the takes a lot of time and this is

43:35

something that called see was like they take up

43:37

all of your time and ballet it like you

43:39

have company class. I'd say it's han am you're

43:42

hurting all day than in the evening you have

43:44

a performance. you get home very late at night

43:46

and by the way some time after that you

43:48

have to have time to so and break in

43:50

a new pair plane choose like every day you're

43:52

just constantly constantly selling. As a professional ballerina you're

43:55

a year old pointe shoes. So is yet another

43:57

way in which he just don't have time for

43:59

anything else. Right. So how do

44:01

you get the fuck out of

44:03

ballet? How do you exit gracefully?

44:06

Is that possible? Like, because what

44:08

I'm hearing is like, you either

44:10

get a horrible injury to your

44:13

mind or your body or both, that

44:15

disqualifies you. Or you somehow

44:17

are in the like, point zero zero zero

44:20

zero one percent who make it all the

44:22

way. And all the way is

44:24

what 35? Then what are you supposed to do?

44:26

Like, what do you do? Oh, it's

44:29

so hard because in a way,

44:31

everyone is forced to leave at some point.

44:33

That's the weird thing about this group.

44:40

So you have like, some people become

44:42

ballet teachers, some will become choreographers or

44:44

involved in the industry in other ways, and

44:46

other people just leave it entirely. And

44:49

either way you go, it's a huge shift

44:51

to go from performing every day to being

44:54

a teacher or being a choreographer or

44:56

being a doctor or an accountant or

44:58

something completely different. Is there like immense

45:01

depression? Like, do people how are people

45:03

okay? Like, are there resources to help

45:05

ballet dancers recover after they leave? Certainly

45:07

not enough resources. It's really hard when

45:10

Valerie and I talked to said it

45:12

takes 10 years to feel like a

45:14

normal person after you leave, literally

45:16

10 years. And I think it

45:18

can take a long time to even unpack like

45:20

what it is that has affected

45:22

you about ballet. And I think some of

45:24

what can affect you is realizing that you

45:27

didn't have a normal childhood. And you

45:29

didn't have certain psychosocial development that

45:31

other kids get to have. Totally

45:33

the psychosocial development. I mean, like

45:35

being so far from your family,

45:38

your friends you've known since you

45:40

were a baby, like that's objectively

45:42

not good for you. But we

45:44

excuse it, we as audience members

45:46

too, like we uplift it because

45:48

we want ballet dancers or we,

45:51

the rich people who can go

45:53

to the ballet. Yeah, and we want

45:56

this story of like the obsessed child

45:58

who like goes all in. In and

46:00

the weird thing about ballet is to things

46:02

that seem to be opposite happened at the

46:04

same time. One is that you're expected to

46:06

become adult at a very young age and

46:09

you're treated like an adult artist at a

46:11

very young age which is problematic. and the

46:13

other thing that happened as even once you're

46:15

an adult, you're treated like a child. So

46:17

when you're in the company, you're kind of

46:19

like the child and the person in the

46:21

front of a room has control over your

46:23

life and tell you what to do to

46:25

control you to have an abnormal degree. Oftentimes

46:28

members of the court, a ballet or called.

46:30

Kids and you don't develop a certain skills

46:32

even just like regular like logistical skills of

46:34

surviving in the world. And then you leave

46:36

the company in your like. I don't know

46:39

how to function and it can be very

46:41

discombobulating because like one person I talked to

46:43

in us you the New York City Ballet

46:45

as you like. I was part of one

46:48

of the most elite artistic institutions in the

46:50

entire world. I felt like I knew what

46:52

was up. I've lived in New York forever.

46:54

It's not like I'm totally sheltered in the

46:56

middle of nowhere with no concept of reality.

46:59

I've toured the world. For my arts,

47:01

but I felt like I was coming

47:03

out of a bunker because I didn't

47:05

realize when I hadn't learned in second.

47:08

Okay so I wanna go back to

47:10

talking about sort of like the logistics

47:12

of the industry. who gets to be

47:14

in this call and like what is

47:17

being in the cold even look like?

47:19

So let's say you come up through

47:21

Procedures ballet schools as a kid. How

47:23

do you ascend the hierarchy which what

47:26

is even look like Tommy Procedures companies

47:28

even aren't who. How many companies. Are

47:30

there? I actually don't know the

47:32

answer to that question, but there

47:34

are a handful of like those

47:37

who burrow elite companies which are

47:39

like the New York City Ballet,

47:41

New York City Ballet, American Ballet

47:43

Theater, that type of company. There

47:46

are these selects very elite companies

47:48

and I think the cultural norms

47:50

of those companies kind of get

47:52

passed down to schools. Around the

47:54

country. and like you said, you took ballet

47:56

for a short time as a kid. So

47:58

many people take ballet. So many

48:01

people in, they're just the everywhere you

48:03

go. There's a ballet school and it's

48:05

kind of like that culture is like

48:07

trickling down and as acting kids and

48:09

and how they were in and how

48:11

they see themselves. yeah league for some

48:14

reason everybody just cos please. Cult leader

48:16

and ballet school. a good season or

48:18

you know it would speak could just

48:20

be nice but I guess the technique

48:22

of the art form is so fucking

48:25

a rigid and the power dynamics have

48:27

been this way for so long that

48:29

most people. Are just lay eggs, eat

48:31

away at. I'm gonna put on

48:33

my best ballerina cult leader impression

48:35

and like knock these kids around

48:37

a little. It's. Wild how

48:39

easy it is. I think for teachers

48:41

to sell that role and like pass

48:44

on the a somewhat traumatic norms that

48:46

they grew up with an often they

48:48

try to improve them but cel like

48:50

it's hard to get rid of everything

48:52

because a lot of ballet culture is

48:54

like built into the choreography and built

48:56

in when you're teaching so I think

48:58

that can be pretty hard to disentangle.

49:00

And plus about in terms of who

49:02

gets to be in this group it's

49:04

hugely prioritizing and valuing way dancers and

49:07

in a white dancers with certain body

49:09

types. So it is very exclusive

49:11

in problematic ways and also exclusivity

49:13

I think leads to it's appeal

49:15

as well because if you are

49:17

chosen you feel very special. Oh

49:19

my God. One hundred percent Okay,

49:21

I just has a couple were

49:23

questions than that. I want to

49:26

play games. My second to last

49:28

question as what is the cold

49:30

the s stories you've ever heard

49:32

or witness Like how bad it

49:34

does the cult of ballet really

49:36

really Go Oh man I think.

49:38

Just. The fact that there can

49:41

be in sometimes no one to turn to

49:43

if that person who's in charge of your

49:45

livelihood and your chance to do this thing

49:47

they sacrifice everything for is pursuing you romantically

49:50

sexually. Whatever it's like what are you supposed

49:52

to do and also connected to that called

49:54

mean as as as their those hands of

49:57

that person as someone you've known since childhood

49:59

and very. There in late general experience

50:01

that your teacher it when you're a kid

50:03

is someone who will have perpetual control over

50:05

your career for the rest of your life.

50:07

Like if my middle school teacher was gonna

50:10

be like my boss twenty years later and

50:12

know how me enough that it very scary

50:14

situation again and it makes mistakes very high

50:16

all the time. Oh my God of my

50:18

sixth grades frickin math teacher Thank god she

50:21

doesn't have any authority over we Now that

50:23

yes not ladies yeah and you need to

50:25

be able to like, mess up and and

50:27

not have it affects your crew for ever

50:29

and like be able to say no to

50:32

something and not feel like it's gonna ruin

50:34

your career and feel like you have nowhere

50:36

to go So that to me is not

50:38

a good situation. Freaky Yeah. Like you can't

50:40

say something at the age of ten that

50:43

won't haunt you for the restroom. Says

50:46

it really feels like that sometimes. and

50:48

there are all these like cultural norms

50:50

around ballet that like I forget even

50:52

exist. Like just the fact that you're

50:54

not Brussels to sit down during a

50:56

ballet class. That said, sir the norm.

50:58

But it's like you have to learn

51:00

these things that are expected of you

51:02

and if you do them, it can

51:04

really affect how people view Hooley. Okay,

51:07

Do you have any advice for people who like

51:09

wanna put their kids in ballet or but don't

51:12

want them to be consumed by like a full.

51:14

And. It's. So hard. I. I

51:16

really struggle with this because I love

51:18

ballet and also I don't think there's

51:20

any way to do it completely safely

51:23

ran. Sort of like if you don't

51:25

want your kids to have any chance

51:27

of getting C D E, but they

51:29

really want to play football with you

51:31

do and I don't know. I mean,

51:34

I think being aware as you can

51:36

about some of these pitfalls will help

51:38

you keep an eye out for them,

51:40

making sure that your kid has a

51:42

teacher who is aware of these issues.

51:45

and valley culture and is working against

51:47

them and a lot of teachers are

51:49

working really hard against them and so

51:52

that's very promising but i'm also not

51:54

a parent ice i don't know how

51:56

to do it completely safely and and

51:58

also to try to prevent body

52:01

image stuff or maybe trying to

52:03

provide role models for them who

52:05

are vocal about

52:07

this. I went to a local

52:09

production of The Nutcracker and interviewed kids. And

52:11

I talked to this one dancer and she

52:14

was like, I've always been the biggest person

52:16

in the room. And she's

52:18

really struggled with her body image. And

52:20

then she came across this other plus

52:22

size ballet dancer on TikTok. And

52:24

it completely liberated her. This is a

52:27

teenager I was interviewing and she was

52:29

beaming with excitement about how liberated

52:31

she felt that she can dance at any

52:34

size and like be incredible. And

52:36

that made me very hopeful. Yeah, yeah.

52:38

Representation seriously matters. It makes people

52:40

feel less alone. It makes people

52:43

less susceptible to the trauma and

52:45

abuse of a cult, especially one

52:47

as legacy as

52:49

the cult of ballet. Okay,

52:56

so now we're gonna play a little game. It's

52:59

called on point or not on point.

53:02

And I basically had a

53:04

bunch of listeners submit their

53:07

most unfiltered assumptions about the

53:09

cult of ballet. And

53:11

I'm gonna read a few of them to you

53:13

and you're gonna determine whether the assumption is on

53:15

point or not on point. Love it.

53:18

I told people to like do their worst

53:21

because it was anonymous. So

53:23

this person said that their cult

53:25

of ballet assumption was teachers are

53:28

extremely manipulative to parents and dancers.

53:31

On point or not on point? Sometimes on

53:33

point. It depends on the teacher, but that definitely

53:35

can happen. All right, I would say pretty much

53:37

overall on point. Next

53:39

one, the competition. It's always super competitive

53:42

to get one role and they'll sabotage

53:44

in order to do that. Oof,

53:46

again, can be on point. Now

53:49

I think some dancers would fight back because

53:51

also dancers really bond and support each other.

53:54

So Again, it depends on the company you're in.

53:56

It depends on the culture you're in, But absolutely

53:58

there are cases of that. That point, Yeah,

54:01

how could it not? when the

54:03

culture is set of as it is

54:05

being so exclusive the plague You'll do

54:07

whatever it takes. Black Swan style. Okay,

54:10

I feeling I mean I are. You

54:12

know the answer. This isn't what you

54:14

claim so far by an envoy are

54:17

not on planes. The pain they have

54:19

to endure for the good of the

54:21

group. On played Ah the point. That

54:24

sells settlements or hands. Holy shit on. when

54:26

are not on place? Even if you just

54:29

do it for a short while, your feet

54:31

are permanently mirza. Not. I'm

54:33

point. I think you can do it for a

54:35

short while and not permanently mess up your see

54:37

I think so as I say that there have

54:40

been some lake I've been learning more about the

54:42

science of our like the ligaments develop and stuff

54:44

it and. I

54:46

don't know every bit as like I

54:48

think actually over flexibility and like pissing

54:50

turn out can be damaging but I'd

54:52

say i my seat seem pretty okay

54:54

and I did do a lot of

54:56

dancing so we did you a season

54:58

one episode of the show on the

55:01

Colds of Seats and I feel like.

55:03

Weird. Leave this is a companion of

55:05

soda that one for Wow. That as

55:07

a little is absolutely. I'm sure there's

55:09

a whole subculture to the cold of

55:11

see dedicated to ballet dancers, toes and

55:13

feet in particular. Oh my gosh, you're

55:16

probably right. Has to be love a

55:18

subculture? Well, that's a nice one. Okay,

55:20

on point are not on point. this

55:22

person says from personal experience they encourage

55:24

their children to join the call to.

55:28

Sometimes. Not on plate in that.

55:30

Also. On think again it depends on

55:33

the person like absolutely they're just like lineage

55:35

type pressure for some dancers but I've also

55:37

taught the dancers who do not want their

55:39

kids and saying and I just the other

55:42

day talk to someone whose daughter was dancing

55:44

and and who the mother what had been

55:46

a professional ballerina and she eventually pulled her

55:48

daughter out to She was like to that

55:51

at it as soon as like know yeah

55:53

with a miss to my see goes both

55:55

ways that how flattering well as legs money

55:57

so they can't dance because in two thousand.

56:01

Okay, next one. On point or not on point,

56:03

abuse is part of the game and you have

56:05

to endure it in order to make it. I'd

56:09

say unfortunately on point. I

56:11

mean, yeah. Emotional

56:13

abuse at the very least. Yeah.

56:15

On point or not on point,

56:17

only very controlled, emotionally suppressed humans

56:20

participate. Thanks center stage. Possibly.

56:25

That line that Maureen

56:27

says, she's just like,

56:30

I'm the best goddamn dancer in

56:32

the entire American ballet company. And

56:34

who the hell are you? Nobody.

56:37

I was like eight years old saying that to my parents. I

56:41

think it's almost an extent on point, because

56:43

you have to learn to suppress certain emotions

56:45

to persist. That's like it's making a bunch

56:47

of little cult leaders. You have to be

56:50

able to access your full range of emotions

56:52

or you end up like a little tyrant.

56:54

Because you have to be able to go

56:56

on stage after like a nightmare day and

56:59

smile and you know, dance and that's not

57:01

surprising. Some emotion. I don't know what is.

57:03

Okay, on point or not on point that

57:05

ballerinas can't really have a life or relationships

57:07

inside of that way. On

57:09

point. It's pretty all consuming. Yeah. On

57:12

point or not on point. This one is

57:14

similar to a previous one, but it's incredibly

57:16

cutthroat as a former dancer, never pro frenemies

57:18

were the norm. Unfortunately, on

57:20

point, not the rule,

57:23

but definitely frenemies in there. Yeah,

57:25

oh God. And that probably gives you trust issues.

57:27

You're like, who's trying to throw me under the

57:30

bus? I would imagine I think that could be

57:32

tough. Okay, on point or not on point. A

57:34

lot of men in ballet leadership are sex predators.

57:37

On point. On point or not

57:39

on point. It's expensive as fuck. This is

57:41

another thing I want to talk about like

57:43

the barrier to entry, right? Like all the

57:46

shit you have to buy. Extremely on point.

57:48

It's so expensive. I remember my mom losing

57:50

her mind whenever we would go to the

57:52

little dance supply store in my town being

57:54

like, you're nine years old. And I'm spending

57:57

how much money on the most uncomfortable shoe

57:59

ever made. for you? Absolutely.

58:01

Fuck. Okay, two more. On point

58:03

or not on point. Like race

58:05

horses, any injury or bodily imperfection

58:07

can be career ending. On point.

58:09

Absolutely. You like sprain your ankle,

58:12

they shoot you right there on

58:14

the rehearsal floor. Okay,

58:16

maybe not quite like race horses in

58:18

this. Okay, and the last one,

58:20

the one that was submitted literally 500

58:23

times on point or not on point, the culture

58:25

of eating disorders, body image issues, you gotta

58:27

be skinny. You can't be

58:29

anything other than starving. On

58:32

point, 100%. And even though people

58:34

are fighting against it, like it is so

58:36

pervasive. How do you even like, how does

58:39

your body even do that? If you're hungry?

58:41

I still can't comprehend it. I don't

58:43

know how it works, but certainly leads to

58:45

injuries. You know, if you're not eating and

58:47

you're dancing at that level, easily can lead

58:49

to more injuries. Hunger is bad.

58:51

It's so bad. Now

59:00

we have arrived at the ultimate verdict at the

59:02

end of every episode of Sounds Like a Cult.

59:04

We have to figure out what level of cult

59:07

the Cult of the Week is. So Erica, out

59:10

of our three cult categories, live

59:12

your life, watch

59:15

your back, and

59:17

get the fuck out. Which do

59:21

you think the Cult of Ballet falls into? I think

59:23

it's watch your back. Okay,

59:27

I don't know where you land. It was sounding

59:29

really get the fuck out. I'm probably still too

59:33

attached to it. I just, you know, I don't

59:36

know, man. I might still be

59:38

a little brainwashed as the problem. Aren't

59:40

we all? Me too. I mean, every ballet video

59:42

that exists on YouTube, I watched it. I watched

59:45

it. I am. Wow. I don't

59:47

know. It's really tough because it's like, it's

59:49

like you said, it's a beautiful art form.

59:51

There are parts of it that are really

59:54

nurturing and fulfilling.

59:56

And I think the

59:58

world without ballet, would be like

1:00:00

a little bit less beautiful, but

1:00:03

would the good outweigh the bad? I don't

1:00:05

know. It's like a little bit borderline.

1:00:08

Watch your back at the back. Yeah, honestly, maybe

1:00:10

it is get the fuck out. I think

1:00:12

if you're gonna do it, like maybe you're just

1:00:15

gonna have to really prioritize health and

1:00:17

self care. And I'd say go for

1:00:20

the company that's healthier and like less

1:00:22

prestigious and like go that route. Such

1:00:24

good advice for any cult like industry.

1:00:26

Now that you're saying that, I think

1:00:28

it's just a heavy watch your back.

1:00:31

Yeah, very heavy. Thank you so, so

1:00:33

much for joining me for this much

1:00:35

anticipated, highly requested, I might add, episode

1:00:37

of Sounds Like a Cult. If folks

1:00:39

wanna keep up with you and the

1:00:41

work that you're doing, where can they

1:00:43

find you? Oh my gosh, thank you

1:00:45

so much for having me. You should

1:00:48

definitely go subscribe to the turning on

1:00:50

any podcast app, The Turning Room of

1:00:52

Mirrors. And my podcast company is Rococo

1:00:54

Punch on Instagram at Rococo Punch. And

1:00:56

I'm on Twitter at DJ Lance. And

1:01:00

yeah, that's it, amazing. Well,

1:01:02

that's our show. Thanks so much for

1:01:04

listening. Stick around for a new cult next

1:01:06

week, but in the meantime, stay poofy.

1:01:09

But not too culty. Some

1:01:19

Purple Cakes was posted in today's say, Amanda

1:01:21

Mantell and edited by Jordan Moore of the

1:01:23

cartoon. As theme music is by

1:01:25

Kacey Cakes. This episode was made with

1:01:27

production help from TV everything, or

1:01:30

in turn, a brief on the river. Thank you

1:01:32

as well to our partner, and I think, Koli.

1:01:34

And if you like the show, please feel free

1:01:36

to check out my book, The Rude Slut, A

1:01:38

Feminist Guide to Taking Back to English Language, Cultish,

1:01:40

The Language of Fanaticism, and The Cult

1:01:42

Homing The Age of Logical Overthinking, Notes

1:01:44

on Modern Irrationality. If

1:01:46

you're a fan of Sounds Like a Cult, I would really

1:01:49

appreciate it if you leave a rating and review

1:01:51

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