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Go to monday.com to learn more. Hello

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there. This is just a reminder that Continental Garbage

0:34

is ever so slightly different to sentimental garbage in

0:37

that it's sort of part postcard and part film

0:39

club. So if you want to sit down and

0:41

read the postcard you can start listening from now.

0:43

But if you prefer to just skip to the

0:46

film discussion, you can look at the timestamp in

0:48

the episode notes and skip straight to there. Okay.

0:51

Enjoy. Hello

0:58

and welcome to Continental Garbage, the podcast where

1:00

we are about to be gone, girl. My

1:02

name is Caroline and I just killed Neil

1:04

Patrick Harris with a box cutter. Joining me

1:06

is the cool girl monologue that you hear

1:09

in your head. It's Jen County. Hi. Hi.

1:11

We're gone, girl. We're nearly gone, girl.

1:14

I'm very proud of this choice. I

1:18

mean, when you suggested it, I was like, it's

1:20

both. It's different. Yeah. It's coming from an angle.

1:22

It's fanatically fitting. It kind of is. Like, I

1:24

feel like we've really, I know when we started

1:26

out, this

1:29

Continental Garbage adventure, which was meant to

1:31

be a mere four weeks of our

1:33

lives. I recall. Do you recall that? A mini season, a short

1:35

project. A little four week. I

1:37

believe this is the 15th episode. No, it's more.

1:40

Okay. I think it's like episode 70. So we've

1:42

been nearly four months now. It's

1:45

been nearly four months now. But when we

1:47

started out, we were like strictly films about

1:50

travel and ideally films

1:53

about traveling on trains. And in Europe. And in

1:55

Europe. And as we've gone, we've just, you know,

1:57

we've felt our way through. With me and her.

2:00

The country of continental garbage has expanded.

2:02

Yeah, it really has. Its borders have

2:04

really, yeah, it's been quite a

2:06

march. But this is completely right.

2:09

I believe that in myself. It feels so right. It's

2:11

funny, because I put out a thing on Instagram of

2:13

being like, we're recording our penultimate continental

2:15

garbage, we're coming to the end of the summer, it is now

2:18

September. Next week, for those who

2:20

don't know, we are going to be recording a

2:22

live finale in Salted

2:24

Books and Lisbon, which will be very fun.

2:26

But this will be our last dedicated movie

2:28

chat, so like, what's gonna be the last

2:30

movie? And then everyone who suggested stuff, they

2:32

were all good suggestions, but in my bones,

2:34

I was just like, no,

2:36

right, right. Because I think what

2:38

it was is that there was a lot of things like letteries

2:40

to Juliet, but we did

2:43

all good stuff, but they were too similar to

2:45

things that we've been covering the last few weeks.

2:48

We've been covering some very sugary things

2:50

lately with Sister of the Charming Pants

2:52

and Emily in Paris. I was like, no, we

2:55

need something bitter. We need

2:57

like, some money, you

2:59

know? It felt like

3:01

I was starting to get a hold of my

3:03

teeth from too much sweet girdy, some

3:05

real salt, and I think the sort

3:07

of, obviously, you know, Gone

3:11

Girl, she's in a car and she goes across

3:13

the country. She goes on a holiday. She goes

3:15

on a holiday. She goes on a holiday. And

3:17

that is enough for me to make

3:20

it continental appropriate. Yeah,

3:22

and like, it was kind of

3:24

in my head anyway, because the

3:27

film turns 10 this month. That's

3:30

nuts. Nuts, and it's

3:32

weird because, yeah, so Grazia asked me

3:35

to write about it, and so then it was put back in

3:37

my mind. And I

3:40

also realized that it's a movie and a

3:42

book that's very obsessed with anniversaries. And

3:45

this was the first movie that

3:47

me and Gavin saw in the cinema together. I

3:49

can't believe that that's a bold choice for. And

3:51

we just had our first wedding anniversary. Sorry,

3:55

it's more relevant for me and Gavin rather than me and

3:57

you, but I'm hoping you're very much the third in our

3:59

marriage. I think there's relevance here at this point.

4:01

It's like Gavin, whenever he comes home from work and

4:03

peeks you on the door and is like, oh God,

4:06

she's here again. The

4:09

number of times he's been like, hi, hi, hi. Oh,

4:11

Jen. Is

4:14

she ever not in my house? No, we're in the

4:16

three best piles. Four

4:19

best piles when service is on. To be fair, we

4:21

are three best piles and I have obviously known you

4:23

both for the same amount of time. So

4:25

it's just that I haven't gone into railing with

4:27

Gavin. But

4:30

he is coming to Lisbon with us. He is coming to

4:32

Lisbon. It's gonna be so nice. We're gonna be the three

4:34

best piles anyone ever had and Silvia staying home. Thank

4:36

God. She's not gonna do the heavy breathing.

4:39

So Gone Girl, I'm very excited to watch this

4:41

film. Yeah. I think I actually have seen it

4:44

pretty much since it came out, so. Yeah,

4:46

right? And like, yeah,

4:49

I sort of remember it. I remember

4:51

mostly the box cutting scene. Yeah. And

4:53

then the scene where she takes a box cutter out It's

4:56

a pretty memorable scene actually, that one. And

4:59

I remember the book and reading the book

5:01

and liking it, but

5:03

also not like love loving

5:05

it. But I remember finding the film, I think I

5:07

remember seeing the film and being like the film, this

5:09

book was made to be a film. And it's

5:11

a great film from memory. Yeah. So

5:14

I'm ready for us to experience it.

5:16

But I think before we talk about Gone Girl, what should we talk

5:18

about? What it means to

5:20

be at the end of our continental garbage summer. What it means

5:22

to be almost at the very end. Obviously next week we will

5:25

have definitely a postcard and hopefully a

5:27

live recording. But it does depend on how there

5:29

are mics hold up to the challenge. To

5:31

the challenge of a bookstore or with the

5:33

acoustics of a church. With the acoustics of

5:35

a church and like 50 other people in

5:37

there. Yeah, so we'll see. We'll see. We

5:40

hope to have something for you. We'll do

5:42

our best. But yeah, what a

5:44

summer it's been. This has been the nicest summer

5:46

project I've ever had. Yeah, and as a result,

5:48

my best summer ever. It's been such a YA

5:50

summer. It really, like if it was a novel.

5:52

What just happened? It would be a cover that

5:55

has like these sort of scuffed

5:57

converse trainers in grass. Yes. With

5:59

a daisy chain next to it. really found. It really

6:01

has. It's been like there's been so many powers,

6:03

there's been highs, there's been lows, there's been for

6:06

me three separate festivals. Yeah yeah well done on

6:08

that one. Thanks I know I just got back

6:10

from one just now. Do you feel like you

6:12

have any like take away lessons from the summer?

6:16

Things you're going to take with you going forward? Oh my

6:18

that's a big question. Sorry I had a big question. I

6:20

realized that as the host of this podcast I have the

6:22

luxury of knowing what I'm going to ask on the train

6:24

over and therefore answer my own questions for me and then

6:26

never run them by you. What? What?

6:32

I mean I feel like I've learned a lot about being a

6:34

10 in the head, a 10 in the heart, a 10 in

6:36

the world. Do

6:39

you feel like, like

6:41

where do you feel numbers wise at the moment?

6:44

I'm working on it, maybe I'm a seven you

6:46

know. That's a climb up from last week. She's

6:50

improving steadily, check her chart. Her SATs are

6:52

good, I don't know what that means. I

6:54

watch too much crazy now to me and

6:56

I have no idea. I've

6:59

learned that it is really good to take a month

7:01

off work and go into training. Yeah. That's like one

7:04

of the highlights of my life. It is crazy to

7:06

think that that's what this whole thing started with and

7:08

that was May and like I

7:10

do feel like, I don't know, I think

7:12

that's what summers are for. Like I remember my

7:14

friend Sarah Griff wrote this thing once about

7:17

how like a summer is not a period of

7:19

time. It's like a thing that happens between

7:21

two people. It's like a, like

7:23

summer is unlike any other season. They feel like

7:25

real eras for growth and change in the way

7:28

that other seasons don't to me. I don't know.

7:30

You never get a YA book about the winter

7:32

I turn pretty. It's

7:35

just not a book. It's not that. It's not a,

7:37

what is, what do you think that's about? I think

7:39

there's just some kind of like vestigial

7:42

memory of summer holidays at school where you just

7:44

are allowed to not be doing your

7:47

job, which when you're a kid is school. Yeah.

7:50

For a period of time. And also the days are

7:52

really long if you live in the Northern Hemisphere. Yeah.

7:54

Yeah. And there's a sense that there's endless

7:57

time that where things can be fit in and people

7:59

are just. in the mood to do things and

8:01

to slightly be outside of their comfort zones in a

8:03

new way. And you don't have to wear many clothes. Which

8:05

I know seems weird. It's psychically important. It's psychically important that

8:07

you have them with me like, and there's my coat and

8:10

there's my helmet and there's my scarf. And when I get

8:12

cold, you're just like, no, fuck it. I'm walking out the

8:14

house and I'll see where the day will take me. You're

8:16

not having to prepare in the same way that you used

8:18

to. It's a little loose. It's fancy free. I wouldn't say

8:21

every summer has been like this for me. I've had some

8:23

real boring ass summers before. I've had summers that have felt

8:25

like the mulch of just the year being kicked

8:27

around into a new shape a little bit. Totally.

8:29

Whereas like maybe it's the fact

8:31

of documenting the summer that has made the summer

8:33

feel important. I think this is a

8:36

very important summer. Yeah.

8:39

The documenting it probably helps, but also I just think

8:41

there's been a lot going on for both of us.

8:43

Yeah. You took sentimental garbage on tour and it was

8:45

amazing. It was really nice. It was so good. I

8:47

would say I was thinking about it because I was

8:49

really like putting the summer together and like seeing if

8:51

I could like group it together in any

8:53

kind of a theme or anything like that. And obviously

8:56

there's the stuff that we've been talking about

8:58

all along. But it's like I've realized that

9:00

actually like this is a small

9:02

series of posts, but like, you

9:04

know, I just feel like I

9:07

know who the people are who

9:10

are going to take me forward in the next part of

9:12

my life or something. You know

9:14

what I mean? Yeah. Like it feels very people-y orientated

9:17

and like I used to be a person and I'm

9:19

still this person in many ways. Like I like making

9:21

new friends all the time. I truly believe that if

9:23

you want to have a healthy aquarium, you have to

9:25

keep in like inviting new species in. Biodiversity

9:28

has to happen. Love meeting new people. Love going

9:30

out for dinner with a new chick all the time. Great. But

9:33

like I feel like this summer for me has been

9:35

very about like people I've known for a long time, but

9:37

getting to know them in almost a new way. Like

9:40

so you and I like, you know, we took

9:42

it forever, but like we have this whole new

9:44

kind of catalog of experiences, whole new depth. Like

9:46

yeah, it's like I'm finding like new rooms in

9:48

the house. Extra rooms, extra floors in the house. Yes.

9:50

And I had that same thing with Alex when her

9:52

and I went on the road together to promote the

9:54

tour. I had the name with Dolly. Me and Dolly

9:57

wrote a script together this summer and I just like

9:59

it's. I think for a

10:01

long time my life was all about the collection

10:03

of new people and I guess

10:05

sort of insecurity and I think it comes

10:07

from a cassette, the immigrant insecurity of like

10:09

my life can be measured in how many

10:11

people I know and being

10:14

sort of good with all of them

10:16

and like wanting to be thought

10:18

of well in everybody's

10:20

head all the time, which is obviously

10:22

impossible for anyone. And now I

10:24

just feel like I've sort of, shedding

10:27

is too strong a word, but I feel

10:29

like what's more is like intense focus on

10:31

the people who I really deeply care

10:33

about and like I'm like this is,

10:35

you're a forever person actually. Yeah,

10:38

it's about years and years ago

10:40

I made a New Year's resolution which

10:43

was extraordinary people only because

10:45

I know, because I also love people, I

10:48

love people very much and I love talking

10:50

to people but I also get very tired

10:52

and I'm a socialised introvert and I had

10:55

a moment, probably my twenties where I was

10:57

like I have just, there are just too

10:59

many things in my diary and I don't

11:01

get the time I want with only my

11:04

favourite people and I just had this moment of

11:06

like oh no, I'm just gonna focus in on

11:08

those, not in like a as you say, not in a

11:10

shedding way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or by a

11:13

more of a focus way. Or by a more of being like

11:15

oh well if I have a busy week I can, it's okay

11:17

to take time for myself first of all, it's okay to also

11:19

not be constantly available to everybody. I

11:21

think your kind of immigrant paranoia is the same as

11:24

the military-brat paranoia of like you'll be moved at any

11:26

moment and you must make friends everywhere and you must

11:28

keep them all and you must maintain them and I

11:30

think having that kind of mindset of who

11:32

are my, yeah, who are my people who are

11:34

coming with me into the future and who I love the most

11:36

and who I'm gonna kind of spend

11:38

my time focusing on. Yeah. It is

11:40

good but it's also good to be being like and

11:42

here are some new interesting people who I've met, I've

11:44

made some new friends this summer and it's been lovely.

11:48

I just feel like new people have come

11:50

in and I'm like what a precious gem.

11:52

A precious gem. A press. A press. Also

11:55

what's happening for the first time in my life and also it's and

11:57

you're part of this as well is that like I used to be

11:59

the person who had a lot of fractured

12:01

friendships, not fractured as wrong word, as

12:04

in like disparate friendships that was

12:06

a me and them connection only kind of thing. And

12:09

it would be like, oh, I would, and this also

12:11

comes from being at a time in life when you have

12:13

more time and more evenings to spare, when work is less

12:15

intense, et cetera. And so you have a lot, you

12:18

have maybe three dinners a week with each of

12:20

the different person and each are a blast or

12:22

whatever. But then when you stop getting less time

12:25

for that, what's happening now very joyfully is like

12:27

for the first time, friendship groups are

12:29

starting to coagulate. Like

12:31

it's really not, and I used to be like

12:33

very insecure about like, I

12:36

guess, you know, that splintering of

12:38

selves, you know, of being like, I'm a certain person

12:40

with my friend Jen, I'm a certain person with Dolly, I'm

12:42

a certain person with Ella, whatever. And like, I used to

12:44

kind of be afraid that I wouldn't be able to manage

12:46

all the split selves. And now I

12:48

guess I'm feeling more comfortable with who I

12:50

am. Like, yeah. This is such a

12:53

great YA novel for you. Ha ha ha. I

12:56

think I got a lot of information to be sharing, which is truly

12:58

what I've been thinking about, you know? Yeah, that's really wonderful. I

13:01

love that. Thanks. I love this for you.

13:03

Yeah, like, yeah. But like, you

13:05

know, you're, do you feel that way

13:07

in any way? Or do you feel that insecurity? You've actually

13:10

always been very good at being like, I'm having a party

13:12

at my house. Everyone come over, you know? I've always quite

13:14

liked to like blend the part and be like, what's

13:16

the outcome? Sometimes great. Sometimes people are like, I hate that

13:18

person. I'm like, well. Yeah, well. So,

13:20

so. Sounds like a new problem. Yeah. Um,

13:23

no, I think, yeah, for me, the summer's been

13:25

probably more like introspective personal growth,

13:28

you know? Yeah. It's been

13:30

more about like, where am I going to focus my time? What does

13:32

my future look like? It certainly doesn't look like I

13:34

have a relationship right now, but I have other things

13:36

that I want to focus on. Yeah. And

13:38

that's really such as. Such as finishing

13:40

the book that I am writing. There you

13:43

go. Because I have a new literary agent

13:45

who wants to represent me and hopefully make

13:47

a book happen. And obviously I do have

13:49

a book that lives in the world, which is that tarot reading,

13:51

but I, that's my, that's my one tarot book. It's

13:54

right now. Fiction. Now I write

13:56

story. Time to be a

13:58

novelist, girly. Time to be a novelist, girly, maybe. Who knows? Oh

14:00

my god, we're like freaky Fridaying. I'm

14:04

learning to be more e-socially and you're learning to be

14:06

a novelist. And it's all

14:09

gonna be fun! It's one new

14:11

adventure. Q4 of this year is gonna be

14:13

all about different things for both of us.

14:15

So, okay, so Q4 for you

14:17

is gonna be all about pursuing

14:19

this novel. Yes. Anything

14:21

else you wanna keep in mind? Anything like

14:24

fashion or stylistically or like obviously the

14:26

yogurt curls have been a big hit.

14:30

They were surprisingly a hit. They

14:32

were a huge hit. Maybe I'll be doing more.

14:34

I mean, I haven't today. Everyone look at the

14:36

sentimental garbage Instagram and go to the post

14:39

advertising the Lisbon show and scroll to

14:41

the right and you'll see Jen's yogurt curls.

14:43

My yogurt curls were quite insane. Yeah. Maybe.

14:47

She made from sunscreen that had a yogurt base. Just so you know. It

14:50

was an accident. But happy one. TikTok

14:54

curlies have made fortunes out of less. Right.

14:57

I don't know if the brand that

14:59

I did this with would recommend that that's what you

15:01

should do with their product for SPF. But anyway. So

15:04

perhaps I will, yeah, perhaps I'll curl my hair with

15:06

yogurt more often or like a yogurt base SPF anyway.

15:08

Like, do you have an aesthetic vision in your head

15:10

of what autumn, winter, 24, 25 is gonna look

15:13

like? So the thing is that like I,

15:15

if you ever see a picture of me, you'll see I do

15:17

look like a sort of tragic Victorian orphan. I

15:20

wasn't very telling the orphan of you.

15:23

Okay, like a really hot tragic Victorian

15:25

orphan. But you know, like the sun

15:27

is my mortal enemy. My

15:30

hair does not enjoy humidity. So autumn is very

15:32

much the season where I feel like I look my best.

15:35

So it's not like I'm like changing up a lot there.

15:38

I think I'm just gonna be like fantastic coats

15:40

again. Coats again. I think you said

15:42

to me the other day, you were like, you look

15:44

Irish, you look like you should be wearing a lot

15:46

of wool. And then come October, I just do as

15:48

well wool constantly for six months. Yeah. So

15:50

I'm like stylistically for me. You should be wearing

15:53

wool, spinning wool and selling wool. And maybe I

15:55

should. Although I did because I was at a

15:57

festival this weekend, which is my kind of traditional.

16:00

end of the summer festival. End of the road? End of

16:02

the road. I think they call it that because it does

16:04

feel like the end of summer and it does like both

16:06

in my heart and also just in

16:08

the world. And as

16:11

we have talked about, I think on the

16:13

substag, I like to make packing lists for

16:15

things and I like to assess my

16:17

packing list after I've done a trip. Is it

16:19

sad? Yeah. Is it the reason

16:21

I can pack really light? Also, yes. And

16:24

I was like, it was normally my festival attire,

16:26

a sequence. And I was looking at all

16:28

the end of the road, girlies, and I did write a note

16:30

to myself like, maybe next year you're going to do long flowing

16:33

block print dresses. Maybe you're going to go pre-Raphaelite next

16:35

summer. Who knows? Oh, I could really see that for

16:37

you. I could see that. I have a waistcoat maybe

16:39

as well. Is it too close to

16:42

my aesthetic or is it good enough? I'm

16:44

just going to consider it for next summer, for summer 2025. Because

16:47

I think like I like a sequence, but maybe

16:49

that's not for me next year. Why don't we

16:51

think about the waistcoat coming back? I'm a huge

16:53

fan. So that's the thing. I always thought no,

16:55

because because again, I mean, my aesthetic is Victorian

16:58

orphan slash hobbit and hobbits do love a waistcoat.

17:00

Maybe we just lean into that. Yes.

17:02

So this comes from our our friend

17:04

Ella Risby's theory in that like, what's

17:06

best way to describe it? Everyone has an

17:09

aesthetic that's like not like the specifics of

17:11

their look, but like the thing that they

17:13

conjure. And you must be careful never

17:15

to dress too on point with that aesthetic because

17:17

then it becomes it flips into irony. So in

17:19

her case, I think she says she can't wear.

17:21

What was it? She can't wear. Was it velvet?

17:23

Because then she looks like a tiny doll.

17:26

A doll. Yeah. Because she already has this kind

17:28

of Victorian. She looks like an Edwardian, like

17:30

bride anyway. So if she wears velvet, she

17:33

looks like a doll. Yeah. Because she's like,

17:35

I can't wear velvet. And I have always

17:37

worried that mine is probably, you know, I

17:39

mean, you can talk that I'm likely to

17:42

start wearing a cape with a leaf brooch

17:44

on it, but the hobbit is

17:47

definitely where I can trend. For

17:49

me, like rockabilly bride is really

17:51

dangerous. Like cherry print halter. Anything

17:54

with a cherry print? Yes, I think it's a

17:56

no for me. Yeah.

17:58

I think if you're kind of like. tall and busty

18:00

that's like the shapes and patterns that were

18:03

like nudged towards you in a kind

18:05

of a certain era and you must resist. You

18:07

must resist. Unless you like it but I don't. And it's

18:09

not that you would look bad, you

18:11

would love it, it's just that people would

18:13

be like oh you've gone too far into

18:16

your own aesthetic. But we must

18:18

simply experiment and we must then try and

18:20

find out what we can do. So

18:22

stylistically what about you for the autumn winter? Anything

18:24

you're gonna be taking forward? What I'm really

18:26

hoping is I'm extending the current vibe

18:30

of you know focus on people

18:32

that I really care about or whatever while also

18:34

maintaining a healthy aquarium of new breeds. And

18:38

working on hosting. Hosting? So

18:40

you've actually really helped me with this. I

18:42

can't wait for you to host. Do you

18:44

know what? I've always been the most insecure

18:46

host. You don't like to host. I think

18:49

so. But now I do like to host.

18:51

Maybe I do like to host. I think

18:53

you should host. My previous history with hosting

18:55

has always been like someone

18:58

comes over and I'm so jittery that they're hungry or

19:00

thirsty or whatever. What I do is I give them

19:06

too much starchy food as

19:08

the minute they get in the door and then

19:11

they're just quite like tired and overstuffed and then

19:13

it's suddenly I've nowhere. It's nine o'clock and I sort

19:15

of run out of activities for us to do and I

19:17

get really jumpy and I just like oh whatever

19:20

and I just I can't quite relax into it. I

19:22

over rely on gab for conversation because all I can

19:24

think about is whether they're either too hungry or too

19:26

full and

19:28

I also I have like many insecurities about my

19:30

cooking or whatever and all that. But then

19:33

you started coming over to the

19:35

podcast all the time. All the

19:37

time. And I just got more used

19:39

to like cooking for a friend and realizing I actually

19:41

love cooking for a friend. You have a little bit

19:43

of wine you make a big salad or you make

19:45

a delicious bean based thing. We eat it we just

19:48

hang out. I've just gotten like

19:50

much better at it and like I'm not

19:52

constantly like afraid of whether the food is

19:54

bad or whatever. It's always good. Thank you

19:56

and I just want to be more like

19:58

yesterday I had a brand new friend

20:00

over and and I was

20:03

like a warm night and I took loads of candles

20:05

out and we had wine in the garden and we

20:07

had a dish that had many colors in it and

20:09

I was just like wow I did it. You

20:11

did it? I thought we were good. And I

20:14

didn't apologize for the food once I just I

20:16

just did it and we had a really nice

20:18

time. Caroline this is wonderful. And I want to

20:20

I want to keep doing that. I think that

20:22

was good. Do you know what and you know

20:24

why else? What? Because I am

20:26

still on strike when it comes to restaurants. Are

20:28

you? I am on strike. I didn't really see you on strike

20:30

with restaurants. I've yeah mostly been on strike.

20:32

I just got like. Actually I suppose I did know

20:35

that because we did travel for months

20:37

together and mostly not in at restaurants.

20:39

Yeah yeah because it's just I

20:41

just can't do it anymore man. I can't

20:43

do it. Yeah they are. They're

20:45

a lot. I like I can't accidentally

20:48

spend a hundred and forty pounds on

20:50

over salted tiny food. I can't

20:52

do it anymore. Me and my friend Catherine

20:54

have this thing called supermodel dinners where we

20:56

just got stung so many times in a row

20:59

by shit restaurants where we were overpaid and both

21:01

felt left being like I'm glad I saw you

21:03

but I feel shitty about the amount of money

21:05

we spend. Where we have

21:07

dinner and then we go out to a really nice restaurant

21:09

and we go to a really expensive bottle of wine and starters.

21:12

And we call it our supermodel dinner as if we haven't

21:14

had dinner at home. It's

21:17

actually genius. It's really

21:20

good. See obviously I'm lucky that I have

21:22

my dear friend Becky my social architect.

21:24

Yes. The queen of hostessing. She actually

21:27

you don't you've ever even been to

21:29

one of her parties. No no I

21:31

seem to always be at something. You

21:33

are a busy lady but she

21:35

is the queen of hostessing but she also is very good at

21:37

knowing which restaurants are not shit. And

21:40

so I simply ask her what I must do at

21:42

all times. Oh that's good. I

21:44

just look at her Instagram and take notes. I

21:48

just think people have

21:50

lost sight of what good food is. I

21:52

would agree with you but there are some good foods out there. There

21:55

are good foods. I went to I don't

21:57

know. I'm not going to bore the parish.

22:00

with the specific places I've been to, but I've been to

22:02

good places recently and it's almost always Becky's fault. Almost

22:05

Becky's fault. I

22:07

blame it on Becky, that I've been like, God, I

22:09

had a nice tea and a lovely tea. Lovely delicious

22:11

dinner, it's a wine, God. How could she do that

22:13

to me? Okay, I will have Becky for the nice

22:15

best songs. Okay, you hit her up, she will know

22:17

things. God, I think we've got a

22:19

lovely kind of 24 ahead of us, hopefully.

22:22

Anything else? Wanna

22:27

paint my fucking house? I'll help you paint

22:29

your house. I did dip

22:31

my toe back into the romance-based app

22:35

games. Did you? So as

22:37

in I was like, I wonder how bad it

22:39

is out there. So I downloaded

22:41

Hinge, which I had previously been on and

22:43

the only way I can describe the experience

22:45

of downloading and just like

22:47

flicking through Hinge was are you familiar with

22:49

the wonderful film, The Lion King? Of

22:52

course. I know, yeah. I know, yeah.

22:55

Do you know the bit where Simba comes

22:57

back from spending what appeared to be several

22:59

years in a forest with his

23:01

best friends, a

23:04

warthog and a meerkat, and he comes

23:06

back to the pride lands, which were once beautiful and

23:08

full of verdant deliciousness.

23:12

And now they are barren. The herds have

23:14

moved on. The herds have moved on. And there

23:16

is only dust and grayness. Oh

23:18

no, and the hyenas. I

23:21

was like, that's how I felt. Oh my God. Serabi!

23:29

I literally was like, I just

23:31

had such a nice time here. This was

23:34

such a beautiful, beautiful ground

23:36

for me. Not anymore. And

23:38

obviously- Zazu in a prison made of a

23:40

rib cage. A prison made of

23:42

a rib cage. And

23:44

this is very deep down. That is so good.

23:47

Go on, tell me about some of the hyenas that you

23:50

saw on there. I'm not going to be mean about the

23:52

hyenas I saw on that. It's just like- They're a victim

23:54

of something too. The thing is, it's hard to be a

23:56

10 in the head, a 10 in the heart, a

23:58

10 in the world, when the only people- for pressing

24:00

like a two in

24:03

their mid fifties. You

24:05

know what I mean? And you're like, it was

24:07

just like, oh no, oh no.

24:09

I also quite enjoy that this does make

24:11

in this extended metaphor my previous relationship. Yeah,

24:15

just three guys in a wood eating bugs together,

24:18

singing a Goonamata. It's

24:20

not wrong, I guess. That's not wrong.

24:22

What a lovely time. But yeah, so

24:24

I don't quite know. So I looked

24:26

at that and I was like, maybe

24:28

not dating this autumn. Maybe we'll wait,

24:30

maybe I'll just skip just straight to Cats. I

24:33

don't think so. No, okay. But I'm not

24:35

playing in the depleted Pride dance anymore.

24:38

I think that's smart. I think that's

24:40

not for me. I think the

24:42

main issue there, and we all know it, is

24:44

that for reasons known

24:47

only to them, men will simply

24:49

set the age ranges for people

24:51

they will date on the apps 12

24:54

years lower than they actually are. You know what? And

24:57

I'm fine with them doing that, but I'm

24:59

not participating in it. I'm not paying that, participating in

25:01

that narrative. You've got to boycott that stuff. I can't

25:03

be asked for that. If people my own

25:05

age won't date me, I'm like, well, you will find me in the streets

25:07

and you will date me there. You

25:11

will find me in the streets. Do you know what?

25:13

You and I had a conversation with this last week

25:16

and I asked Gather about it and I was

25:18

like, what do you think is the deal with men setting

25:20

their age range 12 years lower than them? Do

25:22

you know any excuse or rationality or whatever? He

25:24

just looked at me and was like, it's toxic.

25:27

It's a red flag and they should

25:29

be ignored. I was like, okay. Yes, that

25:31

is true. But that is, yes. If

25:33

you were in your late 30s, and I'm sure I'm not the only

25:36

person who would say this. Yeah. Yeah.

25:39

It's such fucked behavior. It is bad behavior,

25:41

but it's also very common. And

25:43

I'm not participating in it. Goodbye to the

25:45

apps. Goodbye to the apps. But also not just goodbye

25:47

to the apps because of that, but also goodbye to

25:50

the apps because like, I think somebody else said this,

25:52

but it's like in every normal

25:54

relationship, like for example, your previous

25:56

one, right? Somebody who you

25:58

knew a long time who like gradually. you

26:01

knew a lot about, you had connections to. And

26:04

there were many stages that existed between

26:06

stranger and lover. Yes, none of them

26:08

took place in a weird little tiny apartment

26:11

environment. Nether stage, right? And so there's so many

26:13

different stages that you go through, like from co-workers

26:15

to acquaintances to like, you know a friend of

26:18

mine or whatever, and you get a 360 view

26:20

that is distant, but

26:22

in a way whole of a person. But

26:25

like with the apps. The slow burn, it's nice. The slow burn,

26:27

whatever. The slow burn is good. Which doesn't mean you have to

26:29

know everybody that you've ever, you

26:31

know, go out with for 15 years or

26:33

whatever, but like, what happens when you are

26:35

on an app based, romance

26:37

based app game, is

26:41

like you meet someone, someone's

26:43

a stranger, and then you meet

26:45

them for the first time, and you're immediately

26:47

dating? Yes. That's weird. It is weird, isn't

26:50

it? You're immediately dating. By virtue of meeting

26:52

them at the all bar one, you're now

26:54

dating. You know, you've now been on dates

26:56

with that person. And it's this weird like,

26:59

this weird hermetically sealed vacuum. It's like, it

27:01

takes away all the naturalism from the growth

27:03

of a relationship. Like it used to be

27:05

that like, people would go on

27:07

dating apps because they had run out of people in

27:10

their real life to go out with. But now it's

27:12

like the reverse. It's like, people

27:14

go to real life because they've run out of people on the

27:17

dating apps. Like, that's fucked. Apparently

27:19

running clubs are the big thing now. I think I

27:21

will not be doing. Especially if you cannot run and

27:23

it just goes incredibly red. Yeah.

27:26

Like, yeah, people are now, we're seeing the pendulum

27:28

is swinging back. Yeah.

27:31

In the opposite direction. Yeah. And great, great,

27:33

because. Yeah, great. Great.

27:36

So Q4 for me, mostly gonna be writing books

27:38

and hanging out with my great friends. Yeah. Not

27:41

gonna be faffing around on hinge or bumble or whatever the

27:43

fucking nonsense there is. Now

27:45

I don't know, I'm sure there's 10 more. Isn't it so

27:48

weird how percentage wise there are so many more men

27:50

on those apps than women are? And yet women are

27:52

the ones who have the terrible experiences? Are

27:54

there more men on them? Yeah. I

27:57

think it's like a three to one ratio or something. What? Yeah,

28:00

I know. It doesn't feel that way. I know. It

28:03

does not feel that way. It's fucked. Oh my

28:05

God. Yeah. I

28:07

think that's actually, I think this is a relevant

28:09

postcard for Gone Girl, a film that if I

28:11

remember rightly, is

28:14

not positive about relationships and

28:16

dating. It's not positive

28:18

about it, it's male critical. It is male critical.

28:20

I think it's also, I think it's female critical

28:22

too, right? Oh yeah. Great. It's,

28:24

yeah, you're right, it's really shit critical. It's really

28:27

like relationships. Are they good though? Are they good

28:29

though? Worth it though? I don't know. I think

28:31

a great one for us to be talking about

28:33

is to be able to put in very different

28:35

spaces on the relationship spectrum. Yeah. Let's

28:37

go for it. Let's go for it. Well

28:40

that movie fucking rocks. I

28:44

love it. I think I love it so much more

28:46

now than I even did when it first came out.

28:48

Because it was so ahead of its time. So

28:51

ahead of its time. And so was the book in so

28:53

many different ways. Like if we think about the book, which

28:55

came out in 2012. And

28:57

this movie, which came out in 2014. So

29:00

like she immediately stopped writing it and then

29:02

started writing the screenplay, which was made so well

29:04

by David Fincher. So well. So

29:06

well. It

29:08

premeditated so many things. In

29:11

terms of, this is a pre-Me Too

29:13

movement. It's pre-Me Too. Post kind of

29:16

online feminism, Jezebel sort of like the

29:18

kind of renaissance of feminism among millennial

29:20

women. And older obviously. But

29:23

it's still early like, and also

29:25

pre True Crime sort of boom.

29:29

Before the moment True Crime. And

29:31

I guess I feel like maybe, just as you said that, I'm

29:34

probably at the elder end of being a

29:37

millennial. Right. At

29:39

37. Was that elder? Yeah, I think

29:41

there's like two, there's like a few more years

29:43

above me. But there's not a lot I don't

29:46

think. I would call 44 to 45 I'd recommend

29:48

it. I think they said that it would just

29:50

be the cut off before you become Gen

29:52

X, I would think. Yeah, but I think it

29:54

was sort of getting to early 40s, you're probably

29:57

there. But for a lot of our generation, this

29:59

film came out. when marriage was like,

30:01

I think old people did. Do you know

30:03

what I mean? And I think to me,

30:05

maybe that's what the difference is that it

30:08

probably spoke a lot to people who were in their 30s at

30:10

the time it came out 10 years ago. But

30:12

for me, a person who was in her 20s, I

30:15

was like, I don't know, seems legit. Yeah,

30:18

no, I loved it. I guess that's what

30:20

marriage is. Yes, I was, totally, I guess

30:22

that's what marriage is. And

30:25

I also think that we had so

30:27

little to relate to in

30:29

terms of like, because really

30:31

what Gone Girl is is that it's taking

30:34

very honest, very

30:36

raw feelings that happen in very many

30:38

marriages and spins them out

30:41

into the operatic level. And that's

30:43

what the best anything is. Like something that

30:45

is just true enough that is just pushed

30:47

over the legend to absolute crazy town, which

30:49

is what makes it such a fucking good

30:51

story. But yeah, I couldn't

30:53

relate to any of that, but I was

30:55

also just of an age where

30:57

I was beginning to understand and no one

31:00

had spoke to me about the whole

31:02

cool girl thing, about the roles that

31:04

women play for men and men play for

31:06

women or whatever. And so I remember that

31:09

as being a real, like it blew my

31:11

fucking arms off when I was

31:13

a kid. At the time that this came out, probably

31:16

either too deep in or very close to

31:18

having been doing that. Yes,

31:21

yeah. Like it

31:23

was a bit like when we talked about when we

31:25

watched the Before trilogy and how you always

31:27

have to have enough distance from these films to

31:30

be able to be like, it's not

31:32

like uncomfortable to see it. But

31:34

I think when the cool girl monologue first came out,

31:37

I was like, what's wrong with liking burgers and giving

31:39

blow jobs? I like blow jobs, I

31:41

think it's cool and different. But like,

31:43

and it is cool and different, but the... No

31:47

one does that. But I think

31:49

what's so interesting is that like,

31:51

and I like, because I also sort

31:53

of sped read the novel

31:55

this weekend and like, not

31:57

because I had to speed read it, more because speed...

32:00

reading is the only way you can read Gone

32:02

Girl, because it is so addictive. It is

32:04

just like, it's so yummy.

32:06

It's so good. But it really

32:08

struck me when I was reading the novel. I think

32:10

this holds up in the movie as well, of like,

32:13

yes, the cool girl monologue,

32:15

which is, I mean, everybody knows it. It's

32:17

that where Amy Dodd is driving

32:20

down the highway in her getaway car and it's

32:22

like become clear. This is the first moment where

32:24

you realize as the audience and as the reader

32:26

that this- She

32:28

is absolutely unhinged. She's

32:31

unhinged. She's killed herself. I think the

32:33

first line is, I'm so happy now

32:35

that I'm dead. Yes! So

32:37

good. And she,

32:40

you know, she said, oh, you know, for a while

32:42

I was gay, I could do it. I was a

32:44

cool girl. That's the ultimate compliment, isn't it? The cool

32:46

girl. That's the whole thing of like, cool

32:49

girl, like watches Adam Sandler movies and drinks beer and

32:51

da, da, da, da, da. And then it goes on

32:53

to say like, and the thing is that they think

32:55

this girl actually exists, but it was made up and

32:57

put into movies and then watched

32:59

by girls who thought that they had

33:01

to be this. And then the cool girl

33:04

had to become the de facto girl. And

33:06

that became the new almost standard of femininity

33:08

with this sort of like complex hybrid of

33:10

girl and man and about

33:13

how limiting that is. And that's like really

33:16

interesting and true for many women,

33:18

but it's also what's, what kind of

33:20

often gets missed in the discussion of the cool girl, I

33:22

think, is that Amy, the thing

33:24

with Amy and Nick is that Amy's also

33:26

writing roles for Nick. It's

33:28

all about the roles men and women play

33:31

and vamp for each other, I think. And there's a

33:33

kind of, because

33:36

I think the first time when I watched

33:38

it, I think I probably was a bit like,

33:41

probably more sympathetic to Nick's

33:43

character. Yeah. Probably. Hard

33:46

to put myself back in those shoes. I was like, that's a bit

33:48

crackers. Now,

33:50

much more sympathetic to Amy's character because I think

33:53

what she gets so furious about, what she

33:55

is like tearing her hair out about is

33:58

the breakdown of the social contract. and to her

34:00

mind, the social contract is, I will pretend to be

34:02

the person that you want me to be, and you'll

34:04

pretend to be the person that I want you to

34:06

be, and we will both do

34:08

that thing, and what she's kind of really skewering

34:11

is the fact that, again, this

34:13

is not, this is just sort of anecdotal and

34:15

observational from the world in general, it is quite

34:17

often in a marriage, the man

34:20

who stops... Pretending first. Pretending first,

34:22

and being like, this is the real me. Such a

34:24

good way of putting it is. Here I

34:26

am. Yeah. And, uh... Nope.

34:31

Oh, so good. Suck it up. And

34:33

I think what's so good, because like, Amy

34:35

Dunn is a sociopath. She is. She is not full

34:37

empathy, and I think, and she talks about the many

34:40

roles she has lived through in her life. Yeah. Like

34:43

being preppy girl and this girl and that girl, and

34:45

amazing Amy, who's the sort of the child prodigy your

34:47

parents wrote about or whatever, and

34:49

for her, life is nothing but an adoption

34:51

of roles, and when you take those roles

34:53

away, there is only scheming. There's no true

34:55

character, it's just scheming. Yeah. And

34:58

so it's, you know, that's what makes it... The

35:00

idea that you could be, you know, your quote unquote true

35:02

self. To her there is no true self.

35:04

Yes. There is only a person

35:06

who's not trying. Completely. And I think Nick, although

35:09

it's less clearly spelled out, is also strongly implied

35:11

to be the same. They are both people who

35:13

kind of have a bit of a void at

35:15

their centre, and who are only masked. And

35:18

she's like, well listen, they're both the same.

35:20

Yeah. If I can keep the right one on. Yeah.

35:23

Like keep this on for me. Yeah.

35:27

And over and over again, in the

35:29

kind of the flashbacks to their early

35:31

relationship, it's like I found the scenes

35:33

of their first dates excruciating. Right. I

35:36

think they're meant to be excruciating. Well, what's

35:38

interesting, please go on in a second, but

35:40

like, do you believe, because all

35:43

those first dates that we see are, in fact,

35:45

Amy's diary, and are

35:47

accentuated, heightened, and like obviously in the

35:49

book, are meant to be found by the

35:51

reader and taken as true, and

35:54

then we find out that she's had doctored some of

35:56

these diary entries. But I think what she does, because

35:58

I think they cover this, in the film

36:00

is the early part of the diary is all

36:02

true. Yeah, and she's like,

36:04

those are true anyway. Because that makes it

36:07

easy. And then because that also obviously

36:09

incriminates him because when they really miss the diary, he's like,

36:11

yeah, of course that's true. Of course that's true. And then

36:13

suddenly he has to switch. He can't have a kind of

36:16

consistent, no, she lied the whole time. She's

36:18

done a base of truth. And then she's got

36:20

the lies on top of that. She's very smart.

36:22

She's a very smart girl. So

36:24

satisfying. So satisfying. But I think, so I think

36:26

they are true. And I think they are excruciating.

36:28

Because I think they are two people who don't

36:30

have kind of core authentic selves. Like

36:34

two birds of paradise, like flapping

36:36

their wings at one another and doing odd shapes and

36:38

both getting caught up in it. Yeah.

36:40

Which is kind of dating for everyone in

36:42

some ways, but there isn't then a

36:44

revelation of like, and this is the real me. They both are kind

36:46

of left floundering because they haven't really got

36:49

much of a self beneath them. Yeah,

36:51

because there is the understanding of like, you

36:54

date someone and there's magic and pixie dust.

36:56

First of all, because that's what our hormones

36:58

do to us anyway. Totally. But

37:00

second of all, because you're showing off. You're trying, you're

37:02

going interesting places. You're like, brrrr. Yeah. You're

37:05

pumping out your feathers. Yeah, brrrr. Do

37:09

that noise again? Brrrr. Wow, I can't do

37:11

that. I don't know how I can do it. There we

37:13

go. Just a skill I have. But

37:17

like, even as

37:19

people in their thirties, we understand that like,

37:21

there will be a- There'll be a moment.

37:24

And the glamour will pass and what we

37:26

hope, what we will be left with is

37:28

something to true, honest, pleasant

37:30

and good. Yes, showy, but still

37:33

well-turned, you know? Yeah. And

37:35

solid. Yeah. And this

37:37

is a story of two people. Again, you say it takes a

37:40

common experience and amplifies it to the nth degree. And

37:42

it's like, what if it was all for show and

37:44

what if it then breaks down? Yeah.

37:47

What if you then absolutely go psychotic

37:50

in the most literal sense? Oh,

37:53

it's so good. It's so good. Everything

37:55

about it is good. I think just

37:57

watching, I mean, well, we will watch.

38:00

watching it together and obviously it's been

38:02

your first wedding anniversary recently and you were

38:04

like an interesting film to watch on my

38:06

first wedding anniversary. Yeah,

38:08

about anniversaries it was. And how, I mean

38:11

it's all set around their anniversary, onto Light the

38:13

Fifth. Yes, yes.

38:15

And this whole thing of like every

38:17

year on their wedding

38:19

anniversary, Amy designs a treasure hunt.

38:22

Which is a test of how well Nick

38:24

knows her. Yes, and it's all in very

38:26

horrible rhyme and like it's very like, he's

38:29

just like, yeah, this is like every year

38:31

I fail this test and every year she

38:33

hates me and like, and yet it persists

38:35

or whatever. And then this is

38:37

obviously the year where she designs to

38:40

go missing. It's great. Because

38:42

yeah, because I think it's, it's implied that in the first couple

38:44

of years, he gets it

38:47

right and then they buy the same

38:49

bedsheets together because their sex is so

38:51

good that regular cotton just isn't enough.

38:53

Again, I want to cringe myself inside

38:55

out. It's bad, isn't it? It's great.

38:59

And then by year five, which I think they're

39:01

only a five when this happens, he

39:03

just has lost all interest in her. And

39:07

I feel like that's very,

39:10

I don't know, I think that must be a

39:12

very uncomfortable watch for some people. It

39:14

might sound a little bit, just that thing of being

39:17

like, oh, this person used to be absolutely obsessed with

39:19

me and love me. And now they're like, must

39:22

we? Must we? Yeah.

39:25

Must I? I've never been

39:27

quite in that situation, but you know, you can, you can,

39:30

you can tell when things moving in that direction. And

39:33

I can just imagine if I were in an unhappy

39:36

marriage right now, watching this film would be, ooh, I

39:39

tell you what, man, this gone girl, if

39:41

you're, you know, if you're reading the book

39:44

and if you're thinking about watching the movie or whatever,

39:46

I tell you what, turns you

39:49

into a little bitch. If you're

39:51

not having a bad marriage, it makes you have

39:53

one. Like literally, I was, I was reading it

39:55

all weekend and like, uh, get, we had a,

39:57

we were out, went out quite hard on Friday

39:59

night. so we had a really cozy day and Saturday. I

40:02

sent Gav out to get some food and I said,

40:04

if he got the food, I would cook it. And I

40:07

gave him a very specific list of things. Then he came

40:09

back and he was like, oh, I thought I didn't want that. It

40:11

was too acidic, so I wanted something a bit cheesier. So

40:13

I got this instead. And

40:15

I felt like Amy dumb. I was

40:17

like, I'm gonna frame you for my

40:20

murder, you piece of shit. And I

40:22

was like, a fucking cat who'd had water thrown

40:24

on it. And I was like, do you really

40:26

feel that strongly about this or have you just

40:28

been reading too much Gong Girl today? Did

40:33

he say that to you or did he say it to yourself?

40:35

No, I had to like take myself outside and give myself a

40:37

talking down and eat some crisps. Okay,

40:43

Gong Girl is a- You

40:45

need to like rationale Gong Girl if you're

40:47

gonna reread the book, lads. Yeah, I think

40:49

it's, yeah. I'd

40:51

approach with caution. Like- You're

40:54

in a fifth wedding on a race. It's such a- It's like- But

40:58

it really goes to show it

41:00

what a strong point of view.

41:03

The combination of Gillian Flynn's, sorry

41:05

Gillian Flynn's prose and

41:07

David Fincher's direction. It's such a

41:10

strong point of view in

41:12

terms of just dialogue, sort of

41:14

how scenes are put together, everything. It's really

41:16

hard not to get in your head.

41:18

It really does. I think watching that

41:21

film, we got to the end of

41:23

it. And I was just like, yeah, maybe

41:25

I should just never have a relationship again.

41:27

They seem awful. They seem so bad. And

41:30

yeah, and I've never had a relationship as bad as

41:32

a Gong Girl relationship. And I've had quite a few

41:35

now. I was like, well, like, this feels so true

41:37

that that simply must be the case. And

41:39

also that thing of like by the end, part

41:42

of me does believe that they're gonna make it.

41:45

Oh, totally. They're gonna make it. They're gonna

41:47

make it. They're gonna- They're gonna

41:49

make it. Yeah. I've been having

41:51

interesting conversations this week about Gong Girl, but whether

41:53

people think that by the end, Nick

41:56

and Amy make it or not. Cause like my

41:58

friend Tash, for example, was like, yeah. I think

42:00

that they sort of threw this weird cat and

42:02

mouse power play game, they actually become even more

42:04

in love with each other and more diabolical. It's

42:06

like this thing. And then another friend said, he's

42:09

going to kill himself in 10 years. What are

42:11

you talking about? No, he loves himself too much

42:13

to do that. Yeah. I think they make it.

42:16

There's that, obviously we're going, we're not approaching this

42:18

film in chronological order because it doesn't need to

42:20

be, because it's a classic. But there's

42:22

a bit right at the end where,

42:25

which is actually the only and the first

42:27

time you see Nick enact violence against... Amy

42:30

and it be real, not a thing she's fictionalised, where

42:32

he slams her back against a wall and calls her

42:34

a cunt. And she says

42:36

something like... She

42:39

talks about the fact that actually... She

42:42

might be a cunt, but he loves it. And she

42:44

says, the only time you liked yourself is when you

42:47

were trying to be something this cunt might like. And

42:49

it is the truest thing. And that's why they're

42:52

going to stay together forever. That sentence is why

42:54

they're made for one another. She knows it. He

42:56

doesn't know it yet. But they will. Oh,

43:00

so good. It's... Why...

43:02

OK, why is... Because there are lots of

43:04

movies about psychos out there, and many of

43:06

them David Fincher has made, and most of

43:09

them I don't like. I don't like Seven.

43:11

I don't like Girl with a Dragon Tattoo.

43:13

Mainly because these are people who are psychos

43:16

in vacuums, right? They are like, I

43:18

never liked Girl with a Dragon Tattoo

43:20

because I never... I don't like it

43:22

when there are female revenge narratives. And

43:24

those revenge narratives include these women having

43:26

superhuman strength. Because it's not relatable, it's

43:29

not available, it's not interesting, it feels

43:31

like a masculinisation. Even

43:33

if the problem is feminine, e.g.

43:35

domestic abuse or sexual assault or

43:37

whatever, they masculinise it by giving her

43:39

a gun or whatever. But

43:42

it's the way that Amy Dunn

43:44

uses the resources available to women

43:46

to fuck her husband. Totally.

43:48

I think you're completely right. I think with

43:51

psychopathy and sociopathy, people

43:54

automatically skip to very extreme

43:56

versions of what is actually

43:58

quite common. I don't

44:00

know what you'd call it, condition, a common way of being.

44:02

There was a book out called Sociopath about a woman who

44:04

is a sociopath. Yeah, I'm interested in reading that. I mean,

44:07

I've heard great things about it and she's not a criminally

44:09

minded sociopath. She's

44:13

just like, oh no, I just don't feel feelings like you do. And

44:15

I think too often it's like, and they've got to be really, it's

44:17

got to be really gory and

44:20

really like physically. And there is gore in this. Yeah, but there's

44:22

one scene. Well, maybe two if you

44:24

can't believe it, where she like frames her own death.

44:26

But the thing about

44:28

it is that it's not about someone who has

44:30

a lust for gore and horror. It's about someone

44:33

who just. Has a lust for justice. Has a

44:35

lust for justice and believes that their version of

44:37

the world is the way the world should be.

44:40

And doesn't really have room to understand

44:42

that other people might have different opinions,

44:44

feelings, needs, desires. And

44:46

just, we'll use everything to say

44:48

at their fingertips to achieve

44:51

that. And in the case of Amy Dunn, she's not

44:53

physically strong. And we see that in the film when

44:55

in fact, she is fucked up with people who are

44:57

stronger than her. But she is very,

45:00

very, very clever. And

45:03

she's very ingenious. And you should

45:05

never leave her alone with string

45:07

or boxes. Or wine bottles, anything.

45:09

Like the only way that you could stop Amy Dunn

45:11

from Amy Dunn-ing is to put her in one of

45:13

those like padded cells. Yeah. Like

45:15

she's extraordinary. And it feels real because

45:17

that is probably a much better understanding

45:20

of what a sociopath who

45:22

wants to fuck someone over would do. They're not gonna

45:24

suddenly become gun-toting

45:26

assassins. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're just gonna outsmart

45:29

them. Outfox them. They're gonna outfox them and

45:31

they're gonna use the resources available to them.

45:35

And what a set of resources. And what a set of

45:37

resources. What I find so

45:39

fascinating is like, you and I were

45:42

screaming watching this. We were having

45:44

such a good time. And like,

45:46

I remember when I saw it in the cinema when

45:49

it first came out being surprised how kind of campy

45:51

and worry it was. And I do think

45:53

all good noir needs to be camp as

45:55

well because you get lots of people who are

45:58

trying to like, there was one movie with Amy. Amy

46:00

Adams that came out, or

46:03

Nightcrawler with Jake Gyllenhaal. Movies

46:05

that are trying to do that modern noir thing,

46:07

they take this 1930s, 1940s classic genre

46:10

and update it for the modern thing and they

46:12

always forget the campness. It has to be there.

46:14

It has to be there because if you're going

46:16

to make work that's so pitch dark, if it's

46:18

totally dark the whole way through, no one

46:21

can see through the muddle. So you need

46:23

to have these moments of divine brightness, like

46:25

Neil Patrick Harris saying octopus and scrabble. Octopus

46:27

and scrabble. But like

46:30

the campness is so perfectly judged, it

46:33

feels like Bette Davis or John Crawford could

46:35

be doing these lines and you and I were having a

46:37

fucking whale of a time, like having so

46:39

much fun but also on the edge of our

46:41

seats and also this is incredible filmmaking. We've

46:44

seen this film before, we know what happens and we were

46:46

still just like oh! When

46:48

Amy's mum says findamazingamy.com,

46:53

something about that delivery, I don't know what it is but it just

46:55

pushed me over the edge. She's just

46:57

perfect. Just like so… She's

46:59

a fame whore. Amy's mum wants nothing more

47:01

than to be famous and it's sad that

47:03

Amazing Amy, the children's picture book series that

47:06

she's written, has not been doing so well

47:08

and she sees this, her daughter's disappearance, as

47:10

obviously sad but also crucially a chance

47:13

to resurrect her writing career. And

47:15

it's so, like it's not sad, it doesn't have to be

47:17

sad, you know it, you feel it because that performance is…

47:20

It's so… She loves kids. Every

47:23

single person in this fucking

47:25

movie is the exact correct

47:27

person. No one's been cast wrongly.

47:30

Even the really surprising people like

47:32

Neil Patrick Harris, who like I'm

47:34

sure when Gillian Flynn was

47:36

writing that role would never have imagined. But

47:39

is so perfect. He has

47:41

exactly the right level of like oiliness

47:43

but also suaveness.

47:47

And you really think, he seems like someone

47:49

you could murder with a box cutter. I

47:52

don't think he… And it's not physically overpowering,

47:54

I imagine. It's so strange that like, of

47:56

all the kind of villains and anti-heroes that

47:58

are dotted throughout this… this piece, the person

48:00

you really hate is the person who helps her.

48:03

Yeah! So weird that you hate his cat. I

48:05

mean, that whole section of the movie where she's

48:07

like his little fuck doll living in that weird

48:10

mansion on the lake house or whatever, and there's

48:13

this kind of coercive control but it's not

48:15

explicit, but it's just, those are the most

48:17

disturbing parts of the movie. Yeah, because he,

48:19

again, I don't know if he would recall

48:21

him as sociopath or just a person who's

48:23

a bit weird, he doesn't have like physical

48:25

strength or like aggression at his command, but

48:27

he does have a huge amount of money

48:29

in the ability to say things like, well

48:31

I don't want to force myself on you,

48:33

and also don't worry, there are cameras everywhere.

48:35

You'd see anyone coming in or leaving, and

48:37

at that point she's like, oh I can't

48:40

leave. Yeah. I cannot leave this fuck

48:42

palace with 8,000-count Egyptian

48:44

cotton sheets or whatever. Oh,

48:47

it's so, so weird. It's so, it's

48:49

so disturbing. When he's watching the pudding

48:51

and his little face, it's like, no.

48:55

No. That's what's called that. And he brings

48:57

her the hair dye and the clothes. Oh, and

48:59

he's just like, you are not as hot as

49:01

you ought to be, and that is what I

49:03

expect of you, but in such

49:05

an insidious way. But also

49:07

just so funny, like when Nick goes to his

49:10

door and he goes, you've been sending her letters,

49:12

and he goes, me and Amy

49:14

believe in the last art of letter-art again.

49:16

He's just so good. He is a tonic

49:18

in this film. Another one who I think

49:20

gives us great levity

49:22

and a little bit of a tonic is the

49:26

defense attorney around me

49:28

of his name. He's played by

49:30

Taylor Perry and he's called? Taylor Perry.

49:32

His name is Tanner Bolt. Tanner Bolt,

49:35

yes. And he is

49:37

wonderful in this. The way that he's

49:39

just like, yeah, this is fucked up. This

49:42

is, yeah. You can tell that is a man who loves

49:44

his job. Both the actor and the

49:46

lawyer that he is playing. It's

49:49

so good because I think as well

49:51

that lawyer comes in and he's like

49:53

specifically supposed to be one of these

49:55

sleazy lawyers who always like, um, defends

49:57

guilty people and men who have killed

49:59

their wives. men who have so obviously killed their

50:01

wives and he gets them off on technicalities and

50:03

there would be such So it'd be

50:05

so easy to like make him this really

50:07

oily gold ring kind of I think originally

50:10

He was like written for Alec Baldwin and

50:12

actually that would have been over the top

50:14

I think too much everything was judged so

50:16

correctly Lola

50:18

Kirk as that that girl in the

50:20

Ozarks who betrays her. Yeah, the Jemima

50:23

Kirk sister Perfect. Another

50:25

one who I think is perfectly cost

50:27

is Emrata Emrata love to see Emrata

50:29

in a film. I think it's the

50:31

only film she's been in but she's perfect in

50:33

it She no one else could have played that

50:35

but in that every time she was on screen

50:38

we screamed Yeah, we had such

50:40

a visceral reaction to that young woman

50:42

on our screens. It was so negative

50:44

Like I remember going to Prince

50:46

Charles screaming of the sound of music years ago Where

50:48

every time the Baroness came on screen everyone

50:51

hissed and it felt like that. We

50:53

were like hissing. There's something that's so

50:56

Disturbingly childlike about

50:59

her little baby voice. Yeah her

51:01

huge tits and her tiny baby arms

51:04

It's like in her tiny baby clothes

51:06

And it's like oh, yeah, if this

51:09

man it's like, of course, that's who

51:11

he cheated on his wife Yeah, of

51:14

course, and it's so the unique

51:16

casting and Writing

51:18

of like oh no No

51:23

one's on your side with this that woman

51:25

had no business in a bar no that

51:27

woman did not know And

51:30

yeah perfect casting. Yeah, I

51:33

think what's so great about this is that like Because

51:36

it's such a wacky a strange crazy

51:38

plot and you have to believe

51:40

so much Every

51:42

performance is a little to the left

51:45

of a normal person Like

51:47

that thing of like you obviously Ben Affleck

51:49

of like and I think again It's

51:51

one of these great things where the casting is

51:54

doing storytelling work all by itself because we

51:56

have so much like

51:58

mental space around who Ben

52:00

Affleck is to us in terms of like,

52:03

and it's gotten even stronger in the 10 years since

52:05

this film has been made. In the last month, he's

52:07

in the news again. Yeah. For

52:10

the second J. Lo divorce. For the second J.

52:12

Lo divorce and um. I

52:14

found it hard to almost remember that his

52:16

character was Nick Dunn, not

52:18

Ben Affleck. Because like. At what point you turned

52:20

to me and said, what if J. Lo con

52:23

girl herself? She's capable of

52:25

it I think. I don't know if she is. We

52:27

know if we'd find her. Did

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53:39

the Bronx? Yes. Yes. Yes.

53:42

Yes. Yes. Yes.

53:45

Yes. Oh no, you found me. Oh, well, where could

53:47

I be? That's where I have, I played like I

53:49

haven't lived in 40 years. You

53:51

ever seen that? Yeah, won't shut up about. God

53:54

love her. I love it. I respect

53:56

it. It's not not an Amy Down

53:58

energy. Listen, there's

54:01

a lot of famous women who have Amy Dunn

54:03

energy because being famous is hard and takes a

54:05

lot of thought. It does. And planning.

54:08

But I was there watching Nick Dunn and being

54:10

like, this is simply Ben Affleck. He was off with

54:12

his role and he was like, easy. I'll take it. I

54:15

would have to act. I'll simply just turn

54:17

up and be myself. But it's that perfect

54:20

thing of like so much of how we

54:22

think about Ben Affleck in the public space

54:24

and the public spectrum is sort of like

54:26

he's never having the right reactions to things.

54:28

You know, always pap shots of him just

54:30

looking like kind of rumbled and freaked and

54:32

like just sort of depressed and

54:34

sad. And everyone's always like and that really

54:36

upsets people. I think actually Anne Helen Peterson

54:38

did a great podcast with us recently. I think it

54:40

was just called What's Up with Ben Affleck or something.

54:43

What is up with him? And how like it really

54:45

he's got like sort of resting bitch face for

54:47

and it's very interesting when a man has that.

54:49

Yeah. Because it's this thing of

54:52

like we he'd been famous for such a long time.

54:54

He has everything a person could want. We

54:57

want him to be able to enjoy

54:59

it because if Ben Affleck isn't enjoying

55:01

his riches then like. Who

55:03

are we to enjoy ours? Yeah. And

55:05

like that's such a weird echo of like how no

55:08

one like no in

55:10

Nick Dunne's whole storyline it's so much about

55:13

how he's not portraying the right kind of

55:15

bereaved husband, you know. He's never doing anything

55:17

quite right, is he? No. Yeah.

55:21

Yeah. Also like the

55:23

movie never, neither both nor the

55:25

movie ever has a good

55:27

explanation. I think this is very intentional

55:29

of being like well why isn't Nick

55:31

upset? Yes he was fighting with

55:33

his wife. Yes they were in a bad place but

55:35

like truly he's not that shocked.

55:38

He's not that like looking he's not that

55:40

frantic. He's just like whoa weird. I

55:43

think Nick also a sociopath. Well I

55:45

do think I think strong implication that

55:47

there's something going on there with Nick.

55:50

You also do get which you

55:52

don't always get and it's in a natural way a

55:55

little introduction to Nick's entire family. So

55:58

his mother died tragically. His

56:01

dad is, I seem to

56:03

have an advanced form of kind

56:05

of dementia, which mostly involves leaving

56:07

his nursing

56:09

home and then swearing at everybody, which

56:12

would really grind you down. And

56:14

then he's got his twin sister, Margot,

56:17

Goh, who was also perfectly cast. Those

56:20

square glasses really... And

56:22

the barrettes. They really put this film in

56:24

a certain time and place. But

56:27

also, I think one of her early lines in the film,

56:29

I don't quite know how to

56:31

interpret this in a kind of critical analysis way,

56:33

but I think it says a lot about the

56:35

relationship that Ben, that Nick has in his family,

56:37

is when they're talking about his anniversary

56:40

and how it's the fifth year anniversary

56:42

and the wood anniversary, what do you

56:44

get at Margot says, to her brother,

56:46

her brother, go home, slap

56:49

her with your penis, there's some wood

56:51

for you, bitch. Yeah.

56:54

And you just, with that

56:56

one sentence and that one line,

56:58

you're like, oh, this man is

57:00

from a family of awful

57:03

people. Oh, come on. Do

57:05

you think that's that? I know it's

57:08

inappropriate, but that's part of the thing

57:10

of it, right? I

57:13

think the energy that Margot gives

57:15

off. So there is the kind

57:17

of sensationalist entertainment news

57:19

character played by blonde lady...

57:22

Missy Pyle. Missy Pyle, who at

57:24

one point sort of implies an

57:27

incestuous relationship between Nick and Go.

57:30

And I was like, not No. No has the energy

57:32

if she wants to have sex with her brother. Really?

57:36

I do think she does. I do think she does. I

57:38

think she's in... I think that she

57:41

is directed to have a little bit of

57:43

an odd vibe with him. Yeah. It

57:46

is an odd vibe. I think it's an odd vibe. It is an odd

57:48

vibe for sure. I've got brothers. I've got

57:50

brother. I would never say that. Can

57:53

you imagine those words coming out of your mouth to your brother?

57:57

No, but I can't imagine saying that to

57:59

anybody really. It's just not

58:01

my cadence. It's not, I'm, we're demure,

58:03

we're modest. We're not demure, my boy,

58:05

yucky girls. We're

58:07

very open about a lot of things. There's something off. There's

58:09

something off about Nick's whole family, and you can't grow up

58:12

in a family like that, and then have a normal relationship

58:14

with the most beautiful

58:16

one in the world, almost Rosamund Pike. So

58:18

beautiful. She's so beautiful. Do you know, I once

58:21

nearly brought into Rosamund Pike. Yes,

58:23

she was filming a film in

58:27

the city where I went to university, and

58:29

I was, I don't know, walking somewhere, hungover as one

58:31

does, and one is a student, and I nearly walked

58:34

into this woman, and I was like,

58:36

it's the most beautiful woman in the world. This Rosamund

58:38

Pike, she was just there. Wow, was she so beautiful?

58:40

Unfortunately, she is just as resplendent in person as she

58:42

is. I bet she is. It's not lighting, it's simply

58:44

her face. Yeah. She is

58:46

perfect in this film. Oh, she's so

58:49

good. She's perfect in basically everything she's in, but this

58:51

particularly, I think. I think there's also something. She was

58:53

made to play this character. She was, she really, she

58:55

was perfect. I know so many people auditioned for this,

58:57

but they were all just wrong. The

59:01

thing as well, I think something is very

59:03

important in that she's a British

59:05

actress playing American, and she's also

59:07

playing a kind of patrician, New

59:09

England American, right? She's a New

59:11

Yorker, but I think, in

59:14

the book anyways, a lot of New

59:16

Englandisms happen. Yeah, yeah, okay. But it's

59:18

very, she almost has that

59:20

mid-Atlantic accent, and that kind of, she has

59:22

this sort of strange. And quite a deep

59:25

voice as well. Deep voice, yeah, and the

59:27

kind of strange English remove in an American

59:29

woman's body that adds to the idea of

59:31

kind of sociopathy that sort of, it just

59:34

gives her an aura, you know? I mean,

59:36

famously in almost any American film where the

59:38

villain needs to be sociopathic, they are upper-class

59:41

English. Yes, yeah. So the perfect casting

59:43

character. Perfect casting. And that's true of

59:46

Disney Mills. Disney films

59:48

also. Yeah. Sarabi! The

59:52

herds have moved on. I'm

59:54

thinking about it all day, it's so good. The

59:57

herds have moved on. Yeah, I just think. Oh,

1:00:01

a perfect film. It's a perfect film. I know, but

1:00:03

I just don't think I appreciated it enough when it first came

1:00:05

out. I'm so ready for it to- I want to watch it

1:00:07

again and again and again and again. Now that it is 10

1:00:09

years old, I'm so ready for it to sort of live in

1:00:11

itself now, if you know what I mean. Yeah. So,

1:00:14

because so much content is being made all the time

1:00:16

now that things get lost so quickly and it's hard

1:00:18

to know what's really gonna stick around, like

1:00:20

what's really gonna get a retrospective in 30 years' time with

1:00:22

the BFI, and I do think Gone Girl will be one

1:00:24

of those films. It deserves it. It

1:00:27

deserves it, just the, oh. I

1:00:29

just keep thinking of that scene, the scene

1:00:32

where Amy gets engaged. Where

1:00:35

Amy gets engaged. Where they get engaged. Oh,

1:00:37

yes, and they're at the book launch for another

1:00:39

amazing Amy book. I don't understand. You know when

1:00:41

like on Instagram and TikTok, people take scenes from

1:00:44

films and then they play them and you're like,

1:00:46

why are not more scenes from this film? Yeah.

1:00:49

Like that scene. Why does the

1:00:51

pretend interview, which feels like Notting

1:00:53

Hill, but gross and

1:00:56

creepy. That's what we discussed at the BFI in

1:00:58

20 years' time. Yes,

1:01:01

where she just sits down and proposes to her

1:01:04

in front of journalists. Including the phrase, world class

1:01:06

vagina. It's

1:01:09

an immediate no from me. Someone poses to me

1:01:11

in public. Well, you have the serious ick for

1:01:13

Ben Affleck anyway, don't you? I do. I'm quite

1:01:15

partial to Ben personally. There's a moment, I think

1:01:17

at the vigil for Amy, where there are two

1:01:19

people in the crowd, two younger women,

1:01:22

and one goes, he's so hot. And the

1:01:24

other goes, no, he's so creepy. And that's

1:01:26

basically you and I through this horror film.

1:01:30

You think he's hot and I think he's

1:01:32

creepy. But it's a big part of like,

1:01:34

again, the casting being so brilliant of like, it's

1:01:38

said a lot in the movie, the whole thing about

1:01:40

him having a villainous chin and how

1:01:42

he covers his dimple whenever he's like being honest

1:01:44

about something because they have this running joke or

1:01:46

whatever. It comes up in the

1:01:48

book a lot about how like Nick,

1:01:51

as being a sort of a victim of his

1:01:53

own attractiveness that people don't take him at his

1:01:55

word because he looks like somebody who

1:01:57

would beat you up in school. successfully

1:12:00

caught for murders, men. And

1:12:02

that means as a proportion, not as an

1:12:04

absolute number, I reckon more women get away

1:12:06

with it. Yeah, I do think

1:12:08

that. I do think more women get away with it than

1:12:11

we know. And that's a nice fairy story.

1:12:14

That's a nice bedtime story, isn't it?

1:12:16

What a wonderful fairy tale. Goodnight, baby.

1:12:18

More women get away with murder than you know. I

1:12:23

mean, weirdly, in a lot

1:12:25

of cases, I'd be like, probably legit. Yeah,

1:12:29

but there was this case, I think

1:12:31

her name was Lorena Bobbin

1:12:33

or something like that. I hope you knew that right.

1:12:36

Yes, that's something like that. Where she cut off her

1:12:38

husband's penis. Yes! Throw it out the

1:12:40

window! Throw it out the window! And it

1:12:43

was part of a string of cases, and please go to

1:12:45

the You're Wrong About podcast if you wanna know more about

1:12:48

this because it's covered extensively, was part of a string of

1:12:50

cases in the 80s, I believe, of

1:12:52

women, abused women, women who've been abused,

1:12:56

killing their husbands. And there

1:12:58

being a case for going

1:13:01

very hard on these women because we

1:13:03

don't wanna provoke a

1:13:05

nationwide or international streak of

1:13:08

women killing their husbands. And

1:13:10

nowhere, anywhere was

1:13:12

there an effort to stop domestic abuse. It

1:13:17

was like, we have to make an example of these

1:13:19

women who've murdered their husbands rather than

1:13:21

we need to stop domestic. Pfft!

1:13:26

Well, don't understand. You should never murder anyone, probably,

1:13:28

but you know. But yeah,

1:13:30

there is, yeah, I think

1:13:33

there are beginning to be some recognition

1:13:35

now in the justice system

1:13:37

that sometimes when women

1:13:39

murder their husbands, it's

1:13:41

because their husbands have been abusing them

1:13:44

systematically for years and years and years, and it's the

1:13:46

only way out. Yeah. I

1:13:48

think there is a famous British case, isn't there? And I can't remember

1:13:50

the name. I don't know. We're not true, we're not

1:13:52

true. We're not true, okay. We're not true crime podcasts. But

1:13:55

that actually brings us to the next thing, which is true

1:13:57

crime podcasts, which is that another way,

1:13:59

this movie predates. the media movement but

1:14:01

also predates the pre-crime, the pre-crime,

1:14:04

the true crime fascination that has completely exploded

1:14:06

in the last few years and which has

1:14:08

completely passed me by. I just know it

1:14:10

exists. No interest whatsoever, can't be

1:14:12

doing with it. Don't like crime, don't like true

1:14:14

crime, don't want to hear about how it's done,

1:14:17

don't want to say about it. Creepy, creepy, creepy.

1:14:19

Things I want to, I want to hear about

1:14:21

cons and swindles. Cons and swindles. Where people get

1:14:23

like ripped off and stuff. I love that sort

1:14:25

of shit. Grifts. Grifts, I love a grift. I

1:14:27

love a mini pirate podcast series about a grift

1:14:29

or something, that's great for me. But

1:14:32

I don't want to hear about a woman's body

1:14:34

being dragged across a cornfield or whatever, like

1:14:36

no! I don't

1:14:38

know, I don't really want to... Doesn't sit with me, don't want

1:14:41

to get... I feel like if

1:14:43

it's what floats your boat, if the wolf

1:14:45

inside you that wants to murder men is particularly powerful

1:14:47

and you really want to feed it, by all means,

1:14:49

isn't the true crime podcast about what they've been doing?

1:14:51

And I do know that there is a... I

1:14:54

do think... Yeah, I

1:14:56

mean... There is a

1:14:58

rather easy explanation of being like women are,

1:15:01

you know, what they fear most, they want to

1:15:03

confront and I get that, but I also just think everyone

1:15:05

likes being like a detective and that's part of it as

1:15:07

well. That's probably, I think, yeah, there's probably a lot more to that,

1:15:09

but I do think there's probably something there in the... Like,

1:15:11

I think if there's something that really scares you,

1:15:13

you either try

1:15:17

and nullify it by overlearning about

1:15:19

it in the way that when I used

1:15:21

to work in a bookshop, the biggest bias

1:15:23

of like the kind of misery memoirs about

1:15:26

child abuse would be like young mothers

1:15:29

and I'd be like, creepy, but one of my

1:15:31

colleagues just be like, yeah, well it's just like,

1:15:33

it's a worst fear at that point and

1:15:36

so why not read it so that the fear can be

1:15:38

gone and also you can feel like you're somehow in control

1:15:40

and I can certainly see why as a woman

1:15:42

living in the world where you do just live

1:15:44

with the threat of violence at all times it

1:15:46

just could just be there, it could just happen,

1:15:48

there's nothing you can do to protect yourself. One

1:15:51

way to approach that is to be like,

1:15:53

okay, I'm gonna read all about it. Yeah.

1:15:56

But then equally, I'm of the opposite side of things, so

1:15:58

when we're on our holiday... We each had

1:16:01

some vetoes for conversations and one of the vetoes

1:16:03

that I gave you was when you were doing

1:16:05

you're like Did you hear that story about that

1:16:07

woman who lives alone who just like died and

1:16:09

then she just wasn't found for months I was

1:16:11

like veto! Yeah, you wouldn't have any continue I

1:16:13

don't read about those stories I shan't I don't

1:16:15

want to think about it. That's fine But like

1:16:17

I think you are you go one of two

1:16:19

ways you either like it's either a

1:16:21

real gem that you polish Yeah, or you hide

1:16:23

it under the bed and you never think about

1:16:25

it I'm more that way, I'm more that side

1:16:28

Interesting yeah, I wonder what the

1:16:30

psychological makeup and in what ways

1:16:32

it has to be different for you to be a

1:16:34

person who either Obsesses over things you're afraid of or

1:16:36

just pushes under the bed because I'm a push into the bed person. Yeah

1:16:40

Interesting. I don't know but I think many people are

1:16:42

obsessing obsess over and some people are pushing under the

1:16:44

bed and but I think the reason

1:16:46

it's sort of relevant for Gongirl is that

1:16:48

it's The

1:16:51

sort of the due process that

1:16:53

happens in Gongirl And like the detectives

1:16:55

are very big characters in Gongirl I

1:16:57

love the detectives I love her so

1:16:59

much I love when she knows

1:17:01

Amy is lying at the very end When

1:17:03

Amy comes out and she's like doing her

1:17:05

whole traumatized bit and she's like trying to help

1:17:08

the police and she's got this very soft Voice her

1:17:10

soft traumatized voice. Let me just go back to the bit

1:17:12

where I was being held against my will He

1:17:17

beat me shaved me And

1:17:20

and the way all the men are like oh god. Oh

1:17:22

god. Don't say a word Yeah I

1:17:26

was a bony. Yes bony. Okay, and

1:17:29

she goes and back to the credit

1:17:31

cards And it's so

1:17:33

great because you can see that what's happening there.

1:17:35

People are like, she's not really being supportive

1:17:37

of the sisterhood Yeah, but she's

1:17:39

not because she knows she's full of shit And

1:17:44

like that it's so good like honestly

1:17:46

the whole cat and mouse from then

1:17:48

on could be between bony and And

1:17:52

Amy and it would be just as satisfying. It's

1:17:54

like there's so many sounds find it in micro

1:17:56

dynamics in this movie That might

1:17:58

not such a small scene, but It's so

1:18:00

good. It's so good. It's so funny,

1:18:02

but also so scary. It's so scary.

1:18:06

I also wanted to... I

1:18:09

think it's quite... It's a really mean depiction of

1:18:11

the film, from what I was supposed to say,

1:18:13

really funny. The Idiot Pregg.

1:18:18

It's so fucking Noel Hawthorne. Again, I think that's

1:18:20

one of those moments where... There

1:18:24

is... and I do think it's largely...

1:18:26

It's not fictional, but it's fictionalised. It's

1:18:28

fictionalised, the divide between the childless and

1:18:30

the child-having. Right, right,

1:18:32

right. So remind us

1:18:35

who Noel Hawthorne is. Noel is Amy Dan's

1:18:37

best friend, who lives down the road, and

1:18:39

is pregnant again. And Amy

1:18:43

befriends her as part of her master plan to murder

1:18:45

herself. And I

1:18:47

think there is, I say, this fictionalised idea

1:18:50

that somehow women who don't have children, and women who

1:18:52

do have children, secretly loathe

1:18:54

one another. All women with

1:18:57

children, because they're women without children

1:18:59

to be foolish Peter Panettes. All

1:19:02

women without children, because

1:19:04

they're those who have children, to be just

1:19:08

terrible, boring tradwives. And

1:19:10

that's obviously not true. There are definitely dynamics. There

1:19:14

are dynamics. There

1:19:16

are certain wonderful articles, which

1:19:18

I think have been written about, the way in which,

1:19:20

to a certain extent, people with kids are just like,

1:19:24

why do we only talk about this now? But

1:19:26

this is one of those moments where, in this film, just

1:19:28

like going, oh, but what if

1:19:30

I did frame my husband for

1:19:32

murder? She goes, well, what if I did

1:19:34

fucking hate and have great disdain for anyone

1:19:37

with children? And the way she just spends this

1:19:39

whole narrative being like, befriend

1:19:42

an idiot. Befriend

1:19:44

local idiot. Befriend

1:19:46

local idiot. Steal local idiot

1:19:48

urine. Local idiot with had like

1:19:51

three kids. Like at every level, every

1:19:53

time there's an opportunity to be like, but what

1:19:55

if I did? Oh, what

1:19:57

if I did, yeah, yeah, yeah. The film

1:19:59

takes it. And it's just joyful.

1:20:01

And well... It's

1:20:04

so good. It's just a fun, perfect

1:20:06

little side character. Yeah. It

1:20:08

was a caricature of a thing of a person

1:20:10

who doesn't really exist, but exists in the minds

1:20:13

of culture. Yes! I think that's

1:20:15

really interesting in terms of people who don't really exist,

1:20:17

but I think everybody

1:20:20

in this movie exists either through...

1:20:23

We're very much seeing it through our two

1:20:25

narrators' eyes, through Nick's eyes or through Amy's

1:20:27

eyes. I

1:20:29

do think it's not we're seeing an exaggeration

1:20:32

of characters. Every woman

1:20:34

that Nick meets is some

1:20:36

sort of caricature of that

1:20:38

woman with the Frito pie. And

1:20:41

she takes a selfie of him in any light. And he's like, I

1:20:43

will show it to whomever I please. It's

1:20:48

so good. I

1:20:51

will show it to whomever I please.

1:20:55

So good. Everyone's

1:21:00

just like accentuated and

1:21:02

turned up. I'm a little

1:21:04

bit camped and it makes so much sense for a

1:21:06

movie that is so dark in tone and so

1:21:09

dark in cinematography. And then you have these mental

1:21:12

little characters everywhere. It's

1:21:14

like an advent calendar. It's popping out of

1:21:16

every door. It's so good. Do you know who

1:21:18

one of my favourites is? Who? The

1:21:21

cat. The cat. The cat. That cat

1:21:23

has nothing going on. That cat just

1:21:25

sits around. Yeah. And

1:21:27

has so much more screen time

1:21:29

than a non-playable character ought to.

1:21:32

Yeah. It

1:21:34

adds nothing to the plot. It

1:21:37

takes nothing away from the plot. It doesn't advance

1:21:39

the plot. It does not show us how the

1:21:41

characters feel. And yet clearly the director was like,

1:21:43

I just like that cat. Yeah. I'm

1:21:45

trying to film that cat at all the crucial moments. I

1:21:48

was hoping to get more info on the cat by reading

1:21:50

the book this weekend. Is the cat even in it? Yeah,

1:21:52

yeah. It's a little bleaker and the thing with

1:21:54

the cat is he's just

1:21:56

really dumb. Do

1:21:59

we think? fantastic

1:24:00

at? I've been thinking

1:24:02

about it so much since like but like the

1:24:05

you could actually if you wanted to write

1:24:08

a gongrove musical a jukebox musical of gongrove

1:24:10

music you could use is a

1:24:12

Taylor Swift song for everything you could just

1:24:14

use her entire existence yeah yeah so much

1:24:16

of her discography is just about two people

1:24:18

falling out of love in like quite like

1:24:20

terrible ways or whatever half of tortured but

1:24:22

towards department could be on the whole thing

1:24:24

like it's like but like what I

1:24:26

what I would love most of all is if

1:24:29

Taylor Alison Swift writes an actual gongrove

1:24:31

musical I think she would be fucking great as

1:24:33

it is I think it would be I think

1:24:37

it'd be life changing because I think I think

1:24:39

what is there's like two things that Taylor Alison

1:24:41

Swift loves the most which is number one passive

1:24:43

income number two a project

1:24:46

you know and from

1:24:50

from the various leaked bits we've been having about

1:24:53

Taylor lately there's like a bit where she's like

1:24:55

and Fox searchlight has taken her on to do

1:24:57

a movie for a script she's written this novel

1:24:59

obviously I think she's having this feeling I mean

1:25:01

I did I totally get it like 20 years

1:25:03

into her career that she sort of

1:25:05

conquered music and like there's new challenges and new

1:25:08

ways she could express herself and I'm in

1:25:10

favor of that but it has to be

1:25:12

the right project and has to be gongrove

1:25:14

musical it has to be a musical of

1:25:16

gongrove because she is so Amy Donne she's

1:25:18

she is very Amy Donne because like also

1:25:20

so much Easter eggs the way that she

1:25:22

yeah hunch for her fans every year about

1:25:24

herself she just does them

1:25:27

it's she makes it for her

1:25:29

fans she's like murder does fantasize

1:25:31

about it loads the wolf inside

1:25:33

Taylor fantasize about murdering men whilst also having

1:25:35

sex with them both of those wolves are

1:25:37

very strong yeah very strong wolves and like

1:25:39

the and also Amy Donne

1:25:42

is so like you

1:25:44

get this in the book and in the movie the thing

1:25:46

of like she's so obsessed with creating

1:25:48

perfect little moments and like

1:25:50

she's a she like she really enjoys her

1:25:52

relationship with Nick when it's going well and

1:25:54

she orchestrates these moments and she wants him

1:25:56

to behave in certain ways and she wants

1:25:58

to catch them in sno-