0:00

You're listening to the micro version of

0:02

The Savage Lovecast at savage.love. If

0:05

you're stuck in a

0:07

relationship quandary, or if

0:09

you're looking for sexual

0:11

harmony, well

0:15

there's nothing you

0:17

can't cast on

0:20

The Savage Lovecast.

0:23

Okay gay men, I think

0:25

it's time. I think we need to stage an

0:27

intervention for all of our straight girlfriends. I

0:30

came to that conclusion after reading about the

0:32

affair of sorts between New York Magazine star

0:34

political reporter 31 year old Olivia Newtsi and

0:37

70 year old anti-vax

0:39

brainworm sufferer Robert F. Kennedy

0:41

Jr. Now most of

0:43

the time gay men and straight women

0:45

are in agreement about who's hot. Chris

0:47

Hemsworth for example, gay men and straight

0:49

women all agree hot, but there

0:52

are guys out there that only straight

0:54

women think are hot and they're usually

0:56

not great guys. Guys

0:58

like Vince Vaughn, I

1:01

assume he's a lovely person, Vince Vaughn starred in

1:03

a string of hit comedies in the 90s and

1:05

early 2000s and straight girls made him a sex

1:07

symbol and they have never

1:10

taken responsibility for that or apologized. Gay

1:12

men of course, we never thought Vince Vaughn was

1:14

hot. We have nothing to apologize for on the

1:17

Vince Vaughn front. 37

1:19

different straight women had sex with Robert F.

1:22

Kennedy Jr. while he was married to his first

1:24

wife who sadly committed suicide

1:26

after finding the list of other

1:28

women who found her husband irresistible

1:31

and now Newtsi has nuked her career for

1:33

him. She was placed on leave

1:35

from New York Magazine after the affair she

1:37

was having with Kennedy, the affair of sorts

1:40

whose campaign she was covering and at times seemed

1:42

to be boosting was discovered.

1:45

Look, I get it. Lots

1:47

of younger gay men like lots

1:49

of younger straight women find older

1:51

and more powerful men attractive. The

1:54

whole daddy thing. I am not complaining about

1:56

it. I have personally benefited from it, but

1:59

not one. gay man I know, young

2:01

or old, would send whole

2:03

pics to Robert F. Kennedy Jr. That

2:06

man is thoroughly irresistible

2:08

to gay men, but apparently

2:10

not to straight women. So

2:13

what I'm thinking is that maybe

2:15

a well-timed intervention, a room filled

2:17

with Newsy's gay besties just looking

2:19

at her and slowly shaking their

2:21

heads and saying, girl,

2:24

no, over and over

2:26

again, might have saved

2:28

her career. The Newsy scandal

2:30

was just one sex scandal that broke

2:32

last week. An anti-gay activist was discovered

2:34

to have appeared in gay porn. New

2:37

court filings revealed that Matt Gaetz,

2:39

not a drag queen, a MAGA congressman

2:41

from Florida, attended drug-fueled sex parties

2:43

with a 17-year-old girl. There's the Diddy

2:46

Stop that I haven't even begun

2:48

to dive into. And then

2:50

there was the CNN scoop about Mark

2:52

Robinson. I talked about him at the top of the

2:54

show a couple of weeks ago. He's

2:56

the Family Values conservative who doesn't think

2:59

there should be any exceptions for

3:01

abortion except one for his wife and who

3:03

thinks porn should be illegal but spends five

3:06

nights a week in video booths at the

3:08

back of porn stores for years and years.

3:10

Remember that guy? Frank Bruni

3:12

summed up CNN's report in the New York

3:15

Times like this. Turns out

3:17

Robinson frequented a pornographic website where

3:19

he called himself a black Nazi,

3:22

praised slavery, and boasted

3:24

of various sexual proclivities

3:26

and quirks. About

3:28

those quirks, Brett Stevens, also writing the New

3:30

York Times, said, I don't even

3:33

know if we're allowed to discuss them

3:35

in a family newspaper. Let's just say

3:37

this is yet another case of self-declared

3:39

morality being at variance with

3:41

actual behavior. I'm not going to address

3:44

at great length Robinson's comments about being

3:46

a black Nazi, about how he would

3:48

join the Klan if the Klan took

3:51

black members, about how he wanted to

3:53

see slavery come back. This is the

3:55

man Donald Trump endorsed, calling him a

3:58

modern-day Martin Luther King. Robinson

4:00

for his part called Martin Luther King

4:03

on that porn website, Martin

4:05

Lucifer Coon? No,

4:08

I'm gonna leave that aside and

4:10

drill down instead on the variance.

4:13

CNN, which broke the story in the New

4:15

York Times and every other news outlet, couldn't

4:17

bring themselves to quote at length from Robinson's

4:20

posts on that porn site, because

4:22

their family newspapers and family news

4:24

networks. Well, this ain't no

4:26

family podcast. If you are listening in the

4:28

car with your kids and I kind of

4:30

wish you weren't, you might want to skip

4:33

ahead. If you're eating lunch, you

4:35

might want to put that sandwich down. And

4:37

if you suffer from intrusive thoughts, you're going

4:39

to want to skip ahead for your own

4:41

sake. Here we go.

4:43

This is Mark Robinson, Family Values Conservative,

4:46

GOP nominee for governor of North Carolina,

4:49

born again saved evangelical Christian. This

4:51

is Mark Robinson writing on

4:54

the porn site, nude Africa. The

4:57

piss thing is more common than most people think.

4:59

I have a fuck buddy that loves to lay

5:01

on her stomach, spread open her ass and have

5:04

me piss all over her asshole and pussy. The

5:07

longer and hotter the stream, the

5:09

more she loves it. It

5:11

goes on from there. It gets worse. I am

5:13

not going to read the whole post. It's on

5:16

Twitter. Easy to find if you want to read

5:18

the whole thing. I want to

5:20

move quickly on to the most telling thing.

5:22

Mark Robinson posted on that porn site. But

5:24

first and for the record, I do

5:26

not have a problem with people who want to piss on

5:29

or in their sex partners. So

5:31

long as their sex partners want to get

5:33

pissed on or in. I

5:35

have a problem with people

5:37

like Robinson who don't practice

5:39

what they preach in public.

5:42

Robinson condemns gay people and trans people. I'm

5:44

not going to play another clip of Robinson

5:47

shouting in front of a church filled with

5:49

his Republican supporters. I promise Nancy, I wouldn't

5:51

do that to you again. So I'm

5:53

going to quote him. There

5:56

is no reason anybody anywhere

5:58

in America should be telling

6:00

any child. about transgenderism, homosexuality,

6:02

any of that filth. And

6:04

yes, I call it filth,

6:07

says the man who pisses

6:09

on assholes. A shocking

6:11

turn of events that anybody

6:13

who was paying attention to sex scandals over the

6:15

last 30 years could have seen coming. Mark

6:18

Robinson loves himself

6:20

some trans porn. Quoting

6:23

from a post of Mark Robinson's,

6:25

I'm at porn site, I

6:28

like watching tranny on girl porn.

6:31

That's fucking hot. It takes the man

6:33

out while leaving the man in. Yeah,

6:37

the post concludes, I'm

6:39

a perv. Now, we

6:41

still don't know exactly what Mark Robinson

6:43

was doing at the back of those

6:45

porn shops and those video booths where

6:47

he spent five nights a week for

6:49

years and years. And I

6:51

will admit that when the news broke that

6:53

there would be news breaking about a Mark

6:55

Robinson sex scandal, that's what I expected to

6:57

find out. And

6:59

I expected to find out that he was sucking dick

7:02

back there because that's what people go into those video

7:04

booths to do. We have

7:06

no proof of that yet. But

7:09

this detail that Robinson loves trans porn because

7:11

it takes the man out while leaving

7:13

the man in. And

7:15

by that he means leaving the dick in, solid

7:18

circumstantial evidence that Robinson likes

7:21

dick, straight men, straight identified men, watch

7:23

trans porn for the dick. They like

7:25

dick, they don't like men. Trans

7:29

porn in a way, trans washes dick. It

7:31

gives them dick, girl dick without giving them

7:34

man attached to that dick. Similarly,

7:36

straight identified men who sit in video booths

7:38

at the back of porn shops, they

7:41

want dick. They don't want dude. And the

7:43

dicks that come through the holes in the

7:45

walls, glory hole wash

7:47

dick, not attached to a dude

7:49

either. Disembodied floating dicks. Oh,

7:52

and now we know that when Mark Robinson

7:54

called Michelle Obama a man, he was

7:57

rubbing one out. Michelle Obama

7:59

a man? Mark Robinson wishes.

8:02

What we have here in Mark Robinson,

8:04

besides another Trump endorsement designed to make

8:07

Trump look like a sober statesman by

8:09

comparison, is yet another

8:11

case of a man externalizing internal

8:13

conflicts. When someone's professed

8:16

morality, as Stevens put it, is

8:18

in conflict with their behavior, they

8:20

can either reassess their morality or

8:23

they can loudly condemn others for

8:25

enjoying the same moral transgressions. Like

8:28

all of those preachers out there that we've

8:30

covered over the years, who railed against the

8:32

filth of homosexuality before they got caught with

8:34

rent boys sitting on their faces.

8:37

Amazingly, Robinson's scandals,

8:39

plural, aren't disqualifying

8:42

for the GOP base? Biden

8:44

was forced out for being too old,

8:46

but Robinson was not forced out for

8:48

being too much of a perv, as

8:50

he described himself. Indeed, all

8:52

those family values conservatives, and I

8:54

can't believe I still have to

8:56

call them that, are rallying around

8:58

Robinson. The revelations were

9:01

greeted with shrugs, reports the Washington

9:03

Post by Republicans in North Carolina.

9:06

The real winner in all this? Congressman

9:09

Mark Green, Republican of Tennessee, you haven't

9:11

heard of him. He's the

9:13

chair of the House Homeland Security Committee, and

9:15

he's getting a divorce from his wife of

9:17

30 plus years because, sigh, the

9:20

family values conservative, had an affair with a

9:22

much younger woman in Washington DC and fell

9:24

in love with that woman and is leaving

9:27

his wife for that woman. His

9:30

wife said to Politico, he pushed God

9:32

out of his life, me out of

9:34

his life, and developed friendships with other

9:36

congressmen having affairs and getting divorces, drinking

9:38

parties, all while holding a weekly

9:40

Bible study in the basement of

9:42

our home. The Green

9:44

sex scandal that's overlapping layers of

9:47

hypocrisy would have dominated the headlines

9:50

for weeks. He is

9:52

a powerful Republican congressman

9:55

and a towering hypocrite, but

9:57

it just can't compete in the world Donald

9:59

Trump. has created. Trump

10:01

has defined deviancy down, exiled

10:04

decency from the Republican party.

10:06

And here we are. So

10:09

congrats to you, Mark Green. You

10:12

won the week. All right. Coming up on

10:14

today's show in the free for all micro savage,

10:16

love cast, tons of your cues, lots of my

10:18

A's and joining me on the micro and the

10:20

Magnum, the great Esther Pirell is

10:23

in the house. She is the psychotherapist

10:25

and New York times bestselling author of

10:27

mating in captivity and state of affairs.

10:29

She hosts the hit podcast, where should

10:31

we begin? And she's here to talk

10:33

with me about a new online

10:35

course. She's launching this week to help couples

10:38

get that spark back. Esther and I

10:40

talked about a lot, the difference between

10:42

sex and eroticism, infidelity, when

10:44

relationships become police states, forgiveness,

10:47

and whether some couples can get that spark

10:49

back and a lot more. A lot of

10:52

my convo with Esther is on the micro.

10:54

You're going to get a lot of Esther

10:56

on the micro this week, a lot of

10:58

the guests, but to hear all of my

11:00

conversation with Esther Pirell, you're going to have

11:02

to become one of my subs by subscribing

11:04

today at savage.love. All right, let's get to

11:06

that first call. This

11:08

episode of the love cast is brought to

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you by the good folks at Squarespace. They

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Get an extended 30 day free trial trial

12:00

when you go to

12:03

dipcstories.com/savage. Hi

12:05

Dan and everyone here for the

12:08

SIS HED woman Magnum stamp from

12:10

Europe. I have a question

12:12

about a guy that I dated for two

12:15

months this year. I

12:18

ended up things with him because one time

12:20

we had sex, we had sex

12:22

without a condom that they didn't really

12:24

agree to and

12:26

didn't give my consent and

12:29

the worst thing was that he came inside

12:32

me. So I ended

12:34

up having a plan B

12:36

pill and my cycle is

12:38

messed up and he seemed

12:40

very nonchalant about it. Like

12:43

he was even trying to convince me to have one

12:46

more time sex without condom because I'm going to

12:48

take pill anyway. After that,

12:50

he also didn't seem to take care

12:53

much to take really care of me

12:55

about how I feel about taking the

12:57

pill. I also had to pay about

12:59

this video. He didn't share the costs with me. So

13:02

it was very stressful situation

13:04

and I decided to end things with him because

13:06

I felt like, okay, this guy really showed me

13:09

who has and we

13:11

met. I broke up

13:13

with him. I told him everything

13:16

and he was genuinely sorry and

13:18

he apologized. It wasn't enough for

13:20

me. I still said that's over.

13:22

I don't really see this going anywhere

13:24

because I don't think I can trust

13:27

him. And then we, but we met

13:29

a few times, but we didn't, there

13:31

was no, nothing physical going on, but

13:33

overall I don't really enjoy

13:35

him even as a friend, but

13:38

they really enjoyed having sex with

13:40

him. And

13:42

currently I don't have any. Fuck

13:46

buddy, no friends with benefits. I've been

13:48

really unlucky on the

13:50

dating apps and I would

13:52

like to reach out this guy and

13:54

meet up with him for sex. I

13:58

would set my bound. is very

14:00

clear. I don't have any feelings

14:02

for him so I know for myself that it

14:05

should not be emotionally draining. I would

14:08

just enjoy the sexual part. But

14:11

my friends, many of my

14:13

friends, think it's a horrible idea because this

14:15

guy acted like an asshole. Yeah, and I'm

14:17

curious. What do you think? Everybody

14:20

who heard your call, everyone who listened to your

14:22

question wants me to say

14:25

just one thing. Don't

14:27

fuck this guy. Don't reward

14:29

this bad actor with

14:32

your pussy. Don't throw good pussy

14:34

after bad dick.

14:37

Yeah, you met up with him when

14:40

you dumped him and confronted him. He

14:42

seemed genuinely sorry. It's not actually that

14:44

hard to seem sorry

14:47

when you're not and to offer

14:50

somebody a bullshit half-assed apology for

14:52

the sexual assault.

14:55

Many jurisdictions now stealthing is sexual

14:58

assault. And

15:01

he didn't even offer to Venmo you

15:03

money for half of whatever the plan

15:05

B clause. So I doubt he's

15:07

sorry. And so yeah, you should not fuck

15:09

this guy ever again. You should not fuck

15:12

this guy. His bad acts

15:14

should not be rewarded.

15:18

But you should probably go ahead and fuck this guy. If I

15:20

were you, I would probably fuck this guy so long as his

15:23

asshole or he could be contained.

15:25

Part of why you felt so violated when

15:27

he did this first time is we're exploring

15:29

the possibility of a relationship

15:32

and you were hoping this person whose dick

15:34

was in you cared about you. And by

15:36

removing the condom, he telegraphed that he cares

15:38

way more about his dick than

15:40

you. And he wouldn't

15:42

even take responsibility for the horrible thing

15:44

he did with his dick by paying

15:47

for half the plan B or all

15:50

the plan B or arriving with plan

15:52

B in his backpack or whatever. The

15:54

dick must be amazing. The sex must

15:56

be really good. If you want to

15:58

use someone who used you. and

16:00

you want to contain that, or

16:02

you feel like you can contain that,

16:04

your feelings aren't gonna get involved. I

16:08

can certainly see doing that. I have

16:11

certainly done that myself. You're

16:13

gonna make sure that condom stays on, okay?

16:16

You're gonna need a stapler to

16:18

make sure that condom stays on. And

16:21

this person has, this again, and

16:23

now I'm arguing against fucking this guy. He telegraphed

16:25

you in that moment. That he doesn't care about

16:27

you, cares way more about

16:29

his dick, that he will prioritize his own pleasure,

16:33

that he will commit an act, in

16:35

many jurisdictions again, of sexual assault, so

16:38

that he can come inside someone who consented

16:40

to sex and the condition that he wear a condom and

16:42

not come inside them. Even

16:45

if you staple that condom to his dick and it

16:47

doesn't come off, somebody who pulls that kind of move

16:49

during sex has other

16:51

moves that they will pull during

16:53

sex to give

16:56

themselves the pleasure of getting it over on someone,

16:59

of feeling like they're in control, of

17:02

using someone in the way that they would like to use

17:04

them, even if this time while I'm using you, I have

17:06

to keep that condom on. There's

17:08

lots of dick out there. But if this dick

17:10

was great, and you

17:12

wanna sit on it one more

17:14

time and letting him feel like

17:16

he got away with something, because he got away with something,

17:20

you can live with that? I'm

17:22

not gonna throw stones from my glass house at

17:25

yours, because I understand that kind

17:27

of dick fever, been there,

17:29

done that more than once, regretted

17:32

it more than once, but more

17:35

often than not, didn't regret

17:38

it. So you get to make your

17:40

own choices. I'm one of

17:42

those weirdos who likes to take the bus, but

17:44

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stories.com/savage. That's dipsistories.com/savage. Make

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your bus rides super fun. Hi Dan.

18:49

I just want to call about something

18:51

that I find very strange about you.

18:54

By the way, I think you're the

18:56

most one most insightful, logical, interesting people

18:58

I've ever heard talk about these subjects

19:00

so I'm a great admirer. But

19:02

there's one thing that's so weird and that's what

19:04

you said about massage that you're so

19:07

as you would say squigged out about

19:09

a stranger touching your body and this

19:11

is coming from a person who has

19:13

had numerous one-night stands, someone who met

19:15

his husband on a one-night stand.

19:17

So those are virtual strangers and you let

19:19

them touch you in every way. Wearing

19:22

the massage is such a safe place with

19:24

so many boundaries and all you have to

19:26

do is relax and it's the most pleasurable

19:28

thing in the world. So I

19:30

just find it really odd that you are

19:32

creeped out by a stranger touching your body.

19:35

I have had one-night stands.

19:37

I have let people who were

19:40

strangers to me touch

19:43

me but I'm

19:47

demi but I'm demi on speed a little

19:49

bit. Like I could never really mess around

19:51

with somebody if they weren't someone I

19:54

could see myself dating and that is

19:56

something that I got very good at determining

19:59

quickly. When I met Terry

20:01

and we had that one night stand, we talked

20:03

in the bar and then we made out in

20:05

the bathroom and then we went up, there was this

20:08

progression and a lot of talking over the course of

20:10

the night before he wound up back

20:12

in my apartment where the next morning,

20:14

we fucked all night, I

20:17

famously had to, while he was in the shower, get

20:19

his wallet out of his pants and get his driver's

20:21

license out of his wallet because I couldn't remember his

20:23

name. Anyway, that's

20:25

different for me than like laying on some

20:27

table in a dark room with some stranger

20:29

putting their hands on me and maybe there's

20:31

a contradiction there but we are all of us,

20:34

a mass of contradictions, we are allowed

20:36

to have

20:39

tiny little harmless hypocrisies

20:41

and you're trying to sell me on massage by

20:43

saying it's a safe place with a lot of

20:46

boundaries, I totally get it, I've gotten

20:48

a few massages, I wasn't, no

20:50

one cut my kidney out of my body

20:52

during a massage, I wasn't violated in any way but

20:55

you say the whole point is to relax,

20:57

all you have to do to enjoy that

20:59

massage is relax and there's the rub, I

21:02

can't relax in that situation, I

21:07

can't relax laying on a table in

21:09

front of a stranger with

21:11

a towel covering my dick who

21:15

is then going to run their hands all

21:17

over my body, I can't relax, I can't

21:19

relax, I have gotten a

21:21

massage once or twice at Terry's

21:23

urging because he thinks I'm too tense, he

21:25

enjoys massages and I left

21:27

about a thousand times tenser than I

21:29

arrived. So

21:32

I don't see the point, I tipped really

21:34

well, like the fault of the masseuse in

21:37

any way but I didn't

21:39

see the point of putting

21:41

myself through that again, we

21:43

are allowed to have preferences and dislikes

21:45

and they don't all have to neatly

21:47

align with other preferences and

21:50

dislikes, so yeah, I

21:52

was 30 and I met

21:54

this 23 year old in a bar and I let

21:57

him play jungle gym on me all night long. After.

22:00

talking to him in that bar and feeling like, I could

22:02

date this guy and you know what, turned out to be

22:04

right, my hunch was correct. It was really good at figuring

22:06

those things out on the fly. But

22:09

some masseuse. Yeah,

22:12

no, no. I'm fine with

22:15

this being an irresolvable contradiction

22:18

in my psyche, in my character,

22:20

even a hypocrisy of mine.

22:23

And you're gonna let me have it because there's no

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now. We're

24:08

gonna take a quick break from your calls to speak with someone

24:11

that if you're a regular listener of the

24:13

Savage Lovecast, you are familiar with. Someone who,

24:15

if you are a regular listener of the

24:17

Savage Lovecast, you probably already got her books

24:20

on my recommendation and you've heard me quote

24:23

her a million times. New

24:25

York Times bestselling author and

24:27

psychotherapist, Esther Perel recognized here

24:29

on the Savage Lovecast and everywhere else is one

24:32

of the most insightful and original voices on modern

24:34

relationships. It's in addition to writing her bestselling books,

24:36

Esther hosts the podcast, Where Should We Begin? And

24:39

is about to wrap up her sold out

24:41

national tour and evening with Esther Perel. Esther,

24:43

how are you? I am good, it's so

24:46

nice to see you. Tied to what you're

24:48

here today to talk about, which is your

24:50

new online course, which launches in September.

24:53

And we're gonna talk about that in a second,

24:55

but really quickly for maybe you

24:57

have a brand new listener today who hasn't

25:00

heard me talk about you, about

25:02

your books, Mating in Captivity, The

25:04

State of Affairs. There's something that you

25:06

said once that just struck

25:08

me and it's one of the things I repeat

25:10

all the time to listeners and callers. I just

25:12

wanted to unpack it with you really quickly if

25:14

we could before we talk about The Art of

25:16

Desire. And that is the victim of the affair

25:18

is not always the victim of the marriage. I

25:21

don't think there's anything that you've

25:23

said that landed with quite the

25:26

boom that that did because the

25:28

way we have been socialized to

25:30

understand somebody touching somebody else with their genitals

25:32

is that guy or that woman is the

25:35

bad guy. And if

25:37

everything we need to

25:39

know about the problem in this marriage, that

25:43

tells us everything that we need to

25:45

know. And that simple statement of yours,

25:47

recognizing your years of experience,

25:49

couples counseling, working with couples in

25:51

crisis about infidelity, that the victim of the affair is

25:53

not always the victim of the marriage. How did you

25:56

come to that? And when you first said it, I

25:58

think during your TED talk, like

26:00

you were going to blow people's minds? That

26:04

is an amazing question. I could have

26:06

guessed 10 different other things I've said.

26:08

I didn't think you would come up

26:10

with that. But no, I did not.

26:13

When I began the TED Talk, I

26:15

was so much into this challenging,

26:19

certain perceived notions that

26:21

people kind of took as

26:24

truths, but they were only

26:26

truisms. By

26:28

definition, you look at

26:30

infidelity from the point of view of

26:33

a victim and a perpetrator, and

26:36

that it is

26:38

a symptom of a flawed relationship, that

26:41

the transgression is

26:44

way more serious than

26:46

any other relational betrayal that

26:48

may have existed in the

26:50

relationship before. And I

26:52

remember thinking to myself, but relational

26:55

betrayals come in many forms. Indifference,

26:59

neglect, abuse, years

27:03

of sexual rejection. Why

27:05

are we not integrating that? Why do

27:07

we single out the sexual

27:10

infidelity as the ultimate betrayal, as

27:12

the queen of all betrayals? And

27:14

that is not to justify, and

27:16

that is certainly not to promote,

27:18

but that is to add layers

27:20

of complexity here, that people

27:23

would say, why didn't you talk about

27:25

it? Why didn't you bring it up?

27:27

Seriously, people talk and people bring things

27:29

up for years and can't get their

27:31

partner's attention until nothing can

27:33

compare to this. And I'm not sure

27:35

these are helpful statements. And so I

27:37

wanted to make a point, which was

27:39

to say an affair takes

27:42

place in the context of a relationship.

27:44

The relationship lives at the center of

27:46

the affair, and the affair lives in

27:49

the shadow of the relationship or the

27:51

other way around. It's a

27:53

triad. And to just think

27:55

that it's a dyadic thing, me and what

27:57

I did to you, rather than

28:00

And of course I chose it. I

28:02

carried the responsibility. That's

28:04

not the, I didn't, I didn't absolve anybody,

28:07

but I wanted to make a point

28:09

that it's easy sometimes

28:11

for the person who is

28:13

betrayed, who feels violated, who

28:15

feels lied to, who feels

28:18

deceived to enter the role

28:20

as if nothing before that

28:22

proceeded and to say, you

28:25

did this to me when

28:28

the story is often 20, 30

28:30

years earlier of so

28:33

many things that have happened between

28:35

us that give context. They

28:37

don't justify, they don't condone,

28:40

but they give context, layers,

28:42

complexity, nuance. And we need

28:44

all of this if we

28:46

want to help the

28:49

thousands of people that

28:51

are living with the experience of

28:53

infidelity and affairs. One of the

28:56

things I love about your work is how

28:58

nuanced and complex you can allow relationships to

29:00

be. And when there is

29:02

an affair, there is this impulse to look

29:04

to, if people are willing to look past

29:06

the affair and look at the relationship, to

29:08

pathologize the relationship. If everything was going great,

29:10

if these people loved each other, if this

29:12

was a healthy functional relationship, an affair would

29:15

not happen. You wrote a terrific piece, cover

29:17

piece for the Atlantic magazine, why happy

29:19

people cheat, I think was the headline.

29:22

And one of the things you addressed

29:25

was the existence of people who are

29:27

happily married, love their partners. They're not

29:29

the victims of contempt or neglect or

29:31

betrayal in other forms besides sexual ones.

29:34

And yet they had affairs. They

29:36

cheated on partners that they had monogamous commitments that

29:38

they didn't want to hurt and don't want to

29:41

leave and do love, which

29:43

seems an almost impossible thing for

29:45

people to wrap their heads around, except if

29:48

people sit down and read your

29:50

work. But it was the most

29:52

important finding. There are egregious situations

29:54

where it's quite black and white.

29:56

I'm not always thinking it's nuanced.

29:58

Sometimes it just... You just like, you

30:01

lift your heads and your eyes and you just

30:03

say, wow. You know, no

30:06

context will add up to this.

30:09

But the line I kept

30:11

hearing from people is, I love, you know

30:13

how in mating in captivity, people would say

30:15

to me, we love each other very much,

30:17

we have no sex. And

30:20

I began to hear a parallel line in

30:23

the state of affairs. I

30:25

love my partner, I'm having an affair.

30:28

And I feel torn about it and I don't

30:31

know what to make of it, et cetera. But

30:33

what they would say to me is, I

30:36

feel alive. More than sex or

30:38

anything, the experience globally, worldwide, the

30:40

one word that kept repeating, I

30:42

haven't felt so alive. The aliveness

30:44

had to do with a lot

30:46

of other dimensions of

30:48

relationships. But what they would say and

30:50

what I got from it is this.

30:52

Sometimes, it's not that you want to

30:55

leave your partner, but you want to

30:57

leave the person that you have yourself become. And

31:01

it's not that you're looking for

31:03

another person, but you're looking for

31:05

another self or to reconnect with

31:07

parts of yourself that have gone

31:09

dormant for decades.

31:12

And those lines made it

31:14

so, no, affairs are not

31:16

always symptoms of troubled relationships.

31:18

They actually are more existential

31:21

sometimes. They're a quest for

31:23

something. They're an antidote to

31:25

deadness. And they are not

31:27

to blame on the relationship and certainly not

31:29

on the partner. There's nothing wrong with you.

31:32

It's not about anything having to do with

31:34

you not being enough. And that

31:36

sometimes is even more difficult for people.

31:39

It's to think it has, if at

31:41

least it had to do with the relationship,

31:43

we could fix something. But if it has

31:45

nothing to do, then I am really at

31:48

a loss here, completely helpless. So it

31:50

was a complicated statement. But it

31:53

is probably the most important statement in the

31:55

book because the other affairs

31:57

have been written about. I mean, it's

31:59

not that they're not there. The narcissists

32:01

and the serial adulterers and the like

32:04

scalding, unforgivable betrayal that can't. All of

32:06

that. It can't be anything but an attack

32:08

on the, and a desire

32:10

to destroy your spouse. But this, the, this

32:13

I think is something I wrestle

32:15

with and what I do all the time

32:17

is that people have this impulse to have

32:19

an affair for their own reason, to assert

32:21

their individuality, to feel alive. And

32:24

the way we've structured marriage and relationships

32:26

and commitment, those things are in conflict.

32:29

It becomes ultimately betrayal, selfish. But

32:32

how do we build marriages so

32:34

you can have commitment, intimacy, but

32:37

also have those adventures that make you feel

32:39

alive. And of course people in open relationships

32:41

and that are functional and some open relationships

32:43

aren't, they seem to be

32:46

straddling that, that

32:48

divide or have to have resolved that

32:50

tension that people

32:52

who've made monogamous commitments and can't

32:55

conceive of outside sex

32:57

as anything but illicit or

32:59

betrayal can't quite do or

33:01

get to. It's sometimes not even the,

33:03

it's like when you, you know, you

33:05

hear the stories and sometimes there has

33:08

been sex once or twice in the

33:10

course of two years because people are

33:12

in different places. It's the plot. It's

33:15

not even, I mean, I remember when you and I

33:17

talk about this, I think it's

33:19

different in a heterosexual context than among

33:22

men, but in many

33:24

straight stories, the sex is,

33:27

it's the sexual energy. It's

33:30

the possibility. It's the erotic

33:32

charge that comes

33:34

from even discussing movies and music.

33:36

It doesn't come from touching anything.

33:40

And that's what this alive thing

33:42

was about. It's different parts of

33:44

me are talking here that I

33:47

haven't been in touch with. I've

33:49

been the responsible caretaking, caregiving citizen

33:51

of my drunken brother and my

33:53

sick and demented father and my

33:56

partners and my children. And

33:59

for the first time, I'm thinking about

34:01

me. You bet it's selfish. You

34:03

bet. And I don't

34:05

want to hurt and I don't want

34:07

to lie and it has

34:09

nothing to do with my marriage. And

34:11

you listen to these things and it's

34:13

like you scratch your head a little

34:15

bit. And you know that devastation can

34:18

follow and the kind of accumulated hurt

34:20

that is going to happen. My God,

34:22

the day this thing ends. And you

34:24

sometimes even hope that, you

34:26

know, let the thing die a natural death. When

34:30

people died younger and they didn't have devices,

34:33

you know, you only found all of this

34:35

after grandma was gone. You

34:38

know? Yeah. Yeah. Well,

34:40

I, when I hear you do what I'm listening to, I'm

34:42

thinking about something else that you've written, which is to desire

34:45

is to want. And in the context of a

34:48

long-term committed sexually inclusive relationship, the paradox of the

34:50

problem is how do you want what you have?

34:52

It's hard to want what you have. And

34:54

I think there's this need in all of us to

34:57

be wanted by someone who didn't promise to

34:59

want us all their lives, to

35:02

have our desirability, our

35:04

independence, our individuality affirmed, even if there's no

35:07

acting on it, which is why you recommend,

35:09

I recommend for people in

35:11

monogamous relationships, good flirting,

35:13

good jealousy, to see your, you describe

35:15

it in manning activity, when you see

35:18

your partner through the eyes of another

35:20

who is desiring your

35:22

partner, who may be hitting on your partner because

35:25

they didn't look for the wedding ring or they don't care

35:27

about the wedding ring, but you know, your partner going home

35:29

with you, that that can revive your

35:31

ability to see what's to want your

35:34

partner again, to want them back. And

35:36

I do think that that's a powerful

35:38

drive that we don't, we don't know what to

35:41

do with, with in committed monogamous, successfully inclusive relationships.

35:43

Like how do you allow for your partner to

35:45

want to be wanted by someone whose job it

35:47

isn't to want them and make space for that

35:50

and trust that you're not going to get cheated

35:52

on? I think there are two different questions here.

35:54

You know, if you want

35:56

an insurance policy, I can't give you. No,

36:00

no. Despite all the books you

36:02

may have seen in the self-help sections. No, I

36:04

don't. I think that ultimately what

36:06

you hope is that when there is

36:08

any temptation, I see your face approach

36:10

from behind the screen and it kind

36:12

of captures my eye in front of

36:14

me and I just say I would

36:16

love to, but no, it's not worth

36:18

it. It's

36:21

not, you know, I won't do this

36:23

to you. And suddenly you experience the

36:25

conflict between your desires and your conscience,

36:27

basically. But you acknowledge your desires and

36:29

if you have a relationship that can

36:31

be open enough to make space for

36:34

those desires, then you even have a

36:36

partner to whom you can say that

36:38

and you can talk about this and

36:40

that in itself brings air. Fire

36:42

needs air. If you try to

36:44

choke it down, you will get a flicker. You

36:47

won't get a flame, you know. And

36:49

so when I

36:51

wrote about the eyes of the

36:53

other, it goes a step further

36:55

because if another can want your

36:57

partner, then you never have your

36:59

partner. This doubt

37:01

that you actually have a challenge to

37:04

want what you already have presumes that

37:06

you have. And any affair

37:08

tells you that you don't. This

37:11

notion of is a contrived illusion

37:13

of safety. We don't

37:15

have our partner. They are forever

37:18

free agents. They can die,

37:20

they can get sick, they can fall in

37:22

love with someone else. As a result, invest

37:25

the most and the best of

37:27

you in your relationship so that

37:30

you have more of

37:32

them. But no, there is no guarantee

37:34

and that is an existential dread with

37:36

which free love lives with. If

37:38

you don't want that, go to traditional

37:41

societies in which there is no

37:43

choice. You have been married to

37:45

someone. You are in it for life and

37:48

it's a different conception of marriage. But

37:50

if we want a marriage or a

37:52

committed relationship that is rooted in free

37:54

choice, then we have to live

37:56

with the anxiety that that

37:58

choice can be. at

38:00

times changed. The gift

38:02

of embracing that anxiety and living

38:05

with it and living with the existential howling

38:08

void of it, is it really

38:10

does solve for something else that threatens relationships,

38:12

which is being taken for granted. That's right.

38:14

If you know your partner can leave at

38:16

any time, could fuck anybody else at any

38:18

time, then you know that you kind

38:20

of, and I say this to people, and sometimes it makes

38:23

people mad at me, you have to earn your

38:25

partner every day. That's right.

38:27

I think there's something fundamentally transactional

38:29

about all relationships, and you pay

38:31

in an intimate, loving, committed relationship

38:33

with time, attention, affection, prioritization, sex.

38:37

You pay in, and to

38:40

earn all of that back from that person, you can't

38:42

take them for granted or take what they're

38:45

bringing to you for granted either.

38:48

And so if you just embrace it, like, yeah,

38:50

they're free to go at any time, and so I don't

38:52

want them to go, and so I'm gonna show up for

38:54

them. That's right. That's right.

38:57

I've seen this so many times. If

39:00

you want a curse, if you want to put them

39:02

down, if you want to be dismissive, if you want

39:04

to talk to them with your face glued to your

39:06

screen, don't think that

39:08

there won't be somebody else out there

39:10

who says, no, you're not, I can't

39:13

understand how your partner treats you like

39:15

this. I think you are a wonderful

39:17

person. You

39:19

know, no, you're not at all a mess. I

39:21

think you are so inspiring. No, I

39:23

don't think you're a fuckup at all.

39:25

I think you have really deep values.

39:27

I mean, you know. I think your

39:29

band is gonna get signed. We've

39:33

been talking for such a long time, we haven't talked about

39:35

what you're here to talk about today, which is your new

39:37

online course, where I actually think we may have a point

39:39

of difference or contention here that we could unpack a little

39:41

bit. Two courses, one that

39:43

is bringing back desire for people

39:46

who are really stuck in a

39:48

sexual rut, in an impasse, can't

39:50

talk about it, or have really

39:53

poor conversations about it, experience a

39:55

massive discrepancy of desire with the

39:57

pursuer and a distancer. and

40:00

they just don't know where to get the

40:02

flicker back. The

40:05

second part, playing with desire, and some people

40:07

just go directly to playing with desire, is

40:09

for people who feel like they've kept the

40:11

flicker, but the flame is gone, and

40:13

they would like to experience something more

40:16

robust, more intense, more exciting. They

40:18

feel like they're kind of slouched in

40:21

complacency and laziness, and they don't know

40:23

how to jolt themselves out of it.

40:25

And to give a tool that is

40:27

not just a book, but

40:29

that is actually a one hour set

40:31

of short videos with a great workbook.

40:34

It's the workbook that never actually accompanied

40:36

mating in some way. And

40:38

that gives you practices, tools,

40:40

ideas, conversations, interesting conversations,

40:42

not conversations about the fact that we

40:44

never have sex. And that's supposed

40:47

to make us wanna have sex by talking about how

40:49

we never have sex. Now, how do

40:51

you actually have rich sexual

40:53

conversations that make you kind of

40:56

curious about each other, to the point of

40:58

even being turned on to each other, even

41:00

if it starts from the mind and not

41:02

from your genitals, but it's

41:04

that course for

41:06

anybody, any age, any stage, any

41:08

orientation, the whole thing. But

41:11

who say, it's hard

41:13

to sit on the couch at night for

41:15

the umpteen time where each of us is

41:17

watching TV, scrolling on the phone at the

41:20

same time, answering with that classic lag of,

41:22

ah-ha, ah-ha, while somebody's trying to say something

41:24

interesting, and suddenly say, I'd love

41:26

to talk about sex. I'd

41:29

love to talk about where we are at,

41:31

or I'd love to discuss something that's been

41:33

really a part of my fantasy life. So,

41:35

how do you do that? So I have

41:38

a card game that really promotes a lot

41:40

of conversations between people and partners, but then

41:42

I thought something more targeted

41:44

that isn't therapy. And

41:47

you do amongst you that you can come

41:49

back to that workbook for years, and you

41:51

pick one question out of it, or one

41:53

thing that it says, I

41:55

could use exploring that for myself, not just

41:57

with my partner alone. I need

41:59

to understand. understand this thing about me, then maybe

42:01

I can go and have a chat with you.

42:04

So when you do couples counseling,

42:07

you're a psychotherapist, you work with couples,

42:10

there have to be couples who come and sit down

42:12

in front of you where you know, you can tell

42:14

instantly, one of them doesn't really wanna be there,

42:16

but it feels like they have to be there, that they have

42:18

to go through the motions, that this is what is

42:21

required of them, expected of them, it makes them a

42:23

good person that they're at least, they're willing to show

42:25

up and try to do the work, but

42:27

they're not doing the work. Is

42:29

that not also a version of

42:31

that couple is gonna come to this course, where

42:33

one person is done with sex, doesn't

42:36

wanna have sex, or doesn't wanna fuck the person that

42:38

they married anymore after 20 years, and

42:41

what they're told by the sex and

42:43

relationship industrial advice complex is that you

42:45

can get that spark back if you

42:47

just communicate, but what you can't communicate,

42:49

if you're the person who just doesn't

42:52

want to fuck that person that you

42:54

married 30 years ago anymore, you can't

42:56

say that, you

42:58

can't. You're

43:01

saying it daily through

43:03

your behavior, you don't have to put words

43:06

to it. No, yes, you're saying

43:08

it through your behavior and saying, I don't know why

43:10

this is a problem, like the spark's gone out, but

43:12

there's not gonna be in some cases

43:15

on the part of both parties, a

43:17

good faith effort to

43:20

do this work, there's gonna be the going through

43:23

the motions on one person's part, because we've

43:25

been together 25 years, it's

43:27

terrible, we're not fucking, we should be fucking, and

43:31

we can get the spark back. There's a

43:33

million books in the relationship self-help section about getting the

43:35

spark back, and where I've come to lately

43:37

is like, I think what we need to say

43:39

in addition to like, here's how you can get

43:41

the spark back, is for some of you motherfuckers,

43:44

it's not coming back. Now what? Companionate

43:47

marriage, open marriage, divorce,

43:50

and everything that entails, like

43:52

everything you are as a married couple after 25,

43:54

30 years, it's not just we fuck and we

43:56

got married, we fuck with rings

43:59

on, that's not what a marriage is. is after

44:01

decades and decades and children and mixed finances. It's

44:03

all those other things. And so if it's going to be

44:06

a sexist marriage, how do we

44:08

in the sex and relationship industrial advice

44:10

complex who really do elevate

44:13

this idea, hold up as a goal,

44:15

like getting you to fucking again, how

44:18

do we identify those couples where that's not just going

44:20

to happen ever, especially help

44:22

the one who still wants to fuck their spouse

44:25

who doesn't want to fuck them, get

44:27

to a place where that marriage feels healthy

44:29

and functional and loving and intimate again, even

44:31

if the sex is never coming back because

44:33

the spark is out permanently? I

44:37

actually am completely aligned with you. But

44:39

I have done this for

44:41

many years. I say to people, your

44:44

relationship is primarily a

44:46

scaffolding. It's

44:49

what it gives you access to. But

44:52

it's not necessarily what exists between the

44:54

two of you. And that is

44:56

a model. I say

44:58

you are an affectionate companionate couple.

45:00

You are deep friends. You are

45:02

no longer romantically involved. What do

45:04

you want to do with that?

45:07

If both people say, I'm good with

45:10

this at this stage, there's

45:12

not much that we need to talk about.

45:14

If one person said, I still want to

45:16

feel this thing, will I ever get this

45:18

back? Will I never be touched again? I

45:20

mean, I can't live like this. I'm drying

45:22

on the vine. Then you say

45:24

to the other person, this is a power

45:27

trip. If you say no, but

45:29

you can't have it anywhere else either, you're

45:33

in a power struggle here. And

45:36

the question is, what are you afraid of?

45:38

You can't trap your partner into

45:41

the desert to protect

45:44

you from your fear of abandonment. Or

45:47

you may not want to reach out anywhere

45:49

else because you are afraid of the consequences

45:51

of this. And we don't need to make

45:53

a decision, but we do need to have

45:55

a conversation about any of this. This comes

45:57

up all the time in Savage Love. One

46:00

person wants to not be a cheating piece of shit,

46:02

wants to be ethically non-monogamous,

46:06

is sexless marriage. Like haven't had sex

46:08

for a decade and goes

46:10

to their partner and says, obviously I'm committed, I'm not

46:12

going anywhere. I'd like to

46:14

have permission to discreetly seek sex outside the relationship

46:17

because our relationship isn't sexual anymore. And they get

46:19

no, you made a monogamous commitment.

46:22

You signed a, I guess, sex life

46:24

mutual construction pact. But I didn't make

46:26

a chastity commitment. A monogamy commitment is

46:28

not a chastity vow. A monogamy commitment

46:30

imposes on both sides. The

46:32

assumption is I will meet your sexual needs and only

46:34

I will meet them, but I will meet them. But

46:37

when you're done meeting them, people do have it in

46:39

their head that monogamy in a sexist

46:41

marriage means that you don't get to fuck anybody

46:43

else or get to fuck ever again if I

46:45

don't want to fuck you. That you have this

46:47

power to unilaterally declare someone else's sex life over

46:49

if they were fool enough to make a monogamous

46:52

commitment to you. And these are where

46:54

I get in trouble sometimes with my readers, because my

46:56

catchphrase is, do what you need to do to stay

46:58

married and stay sane. And

47:00

I think that's the way I get in that context. Like

47:03

if you go to them and try to do the right thing and

47:05

get the okay and you don't get the okay and it's still

47:07

sexless and it's not something they want to work on. They don't

47:09

want to take Esther Perel's Art of Desire

47:11

course with you. I think you're

47:13

freed from that commitment and

47:15

you're allowed to take care of your needs. When

47:18

we did the course, this was a question that came

47:20

up all the time. Who is it for, right? And

47:23

who will benefit from this? And what do we say

47:25

to the person who says, I've tried to

47:27

get my partner to engage in this. And

47:30

I say, you will learn a ton about yourself and

47:33

you will learn about your limits and

47:35

you will learn about how important this

47:37

sex to you. And I'm not talking

47:40

actually just the fucking. It's being seen

47:42

by someone. It's someone who looks at

47:44

you and still notices that you have

47:47

a body. Somebody who touches you. Somebody

47:49

who, it's a sensuality. I've

47:51

actually broadened it. Because

47:54

people can sometimes live even

47:56

with the no fucking but it's

47:59

the entire. erotic realm that

48:01

disappears. And that gives

48:04

people a real sense of grief. What

48:07

you're dealing with is not horniness. You're

48:09

dealing with loss. You're dealing with grief.

48:12

You're dealing with, you know, I

48:14

am a cherished spouse or

48:16

partner, but I am a famished

48:18

lover. And that's

48:21

the experience. It's like it

48:23

is an experience of deadness.

48:26

They can feel really loved. And that's why

48:28

it's so tormenting because they

48:31

do feel deeply loved. They feel cared for. They

48:33

know that there's no one who would be there

48:35

for them the way that their partner will show

48:37

up. But there is

48:39

something about that sensual,

48:42

sensuous touch, gaze,

48:44

smile, lick, flicker,

48:47

you know, that. Can you get that from someone

48:49

you've been married to for 30 years? Yes,

48:51

yes, you can. Esther, thank

48:53

you so much for coming, for demeaning yourself

48:55

by coming on my dumb podcast. I really

48:57

appreciate it. Oh, come on. It's a

48:59

pleasure to be here. I

49:02

loved chatting with Esther Perel and we

49:04

went on for a lot longer on

49:06

the Magnum version of the show. She

49:08

took a call with me. We talked

49:10

about when relationships become police states, the

49:12

difference between sex and eroticism and so

49:14

much more. Subscribe to the Magnum for

49:16

one month and you can listen to

49:18

my entire interview with Esther Perel. You

49:20

can also binge as many magnums as

49:22

we've ever made, including of course this

49:24

one with Esther, for just eight bucks.

49:26

And if you like it, you can

49:28

keep subscribing or upgrade to a year-long

49:30

subscription for cheaper at savage.love. Check

49:33

out all Esther Perel has to

49:35

offer, including her courses on desire,

49:37

her fabulous podcast, and

49:39

her books at esterpearl.com. Oh

49:43

my God, I'm in such a hurry. I don't even

49:46

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use the offer code savage. Hey,

51:11

Dan, 32 year old bi curious man. Not

51:14

sure if we still use that word anymore, but whatever,

51:16

it feels like it suits me the best because

51:19

I've actually never done anything other than a couple

51:21

of kisses with men. Yeah, I've

51:23

been fantasizing about being with a

51:25

man for probably could at

51:28

least a decade. And I've told

51:30

partners that I've been with that something that I want

51:32

him to do. And I've

51:34

just never really got around to doing it mainly

51:36

because of most student relationships with women my whole

51:39

life. And it's just

51:41

never really happened that way. And I

51:44

was at a pride event maybe

51:46

a few weeks ago and there was this guy and really

51:49

attracted to him. And

51:51

I asked if he was bisexual or

51:53

something. And he said yes. And I

51:55

said, oh cool, like I am too.

51:58

And then it kind of just fizzled off. from

52:00

there I don't think he was as attracted to

52:02

me as him, which is totally

52:04

fine. Yeah, so that's kind of how I've

52:06

always pictured it going down,

52:08

you know, organically. I was

52:10

kind of hoping that I'd be

52:13

able to meet someone like that and then we

52:15

just go back to their place, you know, maybe

52:17

make out, maybe do something more. That's kind of

52:19

how I've always wanted to have them. But

52:22

I've kind of realized it's not gonna happen that way.

52:25

So I've hopped on Grindr and

52:28

holy shit, like it is just

52:30

like a meat market.

52:32

Like I've just been bombarded by

52:34

men just like throwing themselves. I

52:38

feel like this is what it's like for

52:40

women to be on dating apps that are

52:42

dating men. It's very overwhelming and it's a

52:44

little much to be honest. I've been talking

52:46

to one guy who's, you

52:48

know, pretty attracted to and

52:50

I told him my whole situation how I'm like

52:53

nervous and say I've always

52:55

had to be nervous about, like it's all

52:57

good. So that's nice. There definitely are people

52:59

out there that are pretty chill with my

53:02

whole situation. But yeah, I'm just a little

53:04

nervous about the whole thing. Like, part

53:07

of me worries that I'm just not gonna

53:09

like it and that I'm

53:11

like kind of treating the other person as like

53:13

my guinea pig and if I don't like it,

53:15

I'm gonna like let them down or that I'm

53:17

gonna suck at it. You know, I've also thought

53:19

that I might like it. I could actually see

53:21

myself dating a man, you know? But

53:23

yeah, I just don't know. I just feel like with

53:25

women, like it's very like I know

53:27

how to talk to them. I know what

53:29

I like. It's very familiar. Whereas men, I'm

53:32

just like completely like a fish out of

53:34

water. I don't know what part of it

53:36

might just be conditioning, like social conditioning growing

53:38

up. I don't have very many friends

53:41

that are like cool with this sort of

53:43

thing and my family definitely isn't. So

53:46

it might be some like deep-seated mental blocks.

53:49

No gay man, off-grinder

53:51

particularly, goes into a first-time

53:53

same-sex experience for a bicurious

53:56

guy with an expectation that there's

53:58

gonna be a ring on the table. not his

54:00

finger a week later, most

54:02

gay men who would be up for that and they're your

54:05

situation, there's

54:07

not just gay guys out there who would be chill

54:09

about that, there are gay guys out there who would

54:11

be psyched to be your first

54:14

dude, the first dick in your mouth, the first dick in your

54:17

ass, or the first ass you buried your dick in. There are

54:19

gay men who live

54:21

for that and so you

54:25

need to disinhibit around your marketability,

54:28

your desirability and be

54:30

as honest with anybody that you might wanna hook up with

54:32

as you were with that one guy who reacted so positively

54:37

and yeah, you're probably gonna have to do this on

54:39

Grindr. I have a friend who went to a big

54:41

party this weekend where he observed

54:43

that nobody picked anybody up at the

54:45

party but the next

54:48

morning he talked to a bunch of his friends who

54:50

all went home and then got on Grindr where they

54:52

recognized people from the party that then they hooked up

54:54

with later. Yeah, that

54:56

is kind of how the dick is

54:59

had for a lot of younger people

55:02

these days. You don't walk up to people

55:04

in person and talk to them. Everyone should

55:06

read Leo Herrera's book on analog cruising and

55:08

get better at this again. You,

55:11

even if you met them in public, you get on Grindr

55:13

later and then you send them your dick pics and talk

55:16

about what you'd like to have happen. You

55:19

might suck at it. You'll definitely suck at

55:21

it. Give yourself permission to not be great

55:24

at it the first time and you'll feel

55:26

less anxiety and no

55:28

guy is gonna expect you to be

55:30

the best cocksucker that they've

55:32

ever had their cocks sucked by when it's the first

55:34

cock you've ever had in your mouth. The fact that

55:36

it's the first cock you've ever had in your mouth

55:40

is some compensation for the possibility that the

55:42

blowjob won't be as good as the blowjob

55:44

that guy's gotten from other guys who've had

55:47

a million dicks in their mouth and it's

55:49

not nothing as compensations go. For a lot

55:51

of guys that would be pretty exciting.

55:55

So, yeah, you're, how old are

55:57

you? It's in here in my...

56:00

32 years old. You've

56:03

been bi-curious for a decade.

56:07

I get it. I remember first time I talked to a

56:09

technician I was 16 years old. I

56:12

was a nervous wreck right

56:15

before, during, right

56:17

after. I probably wasn't that great

56:19

at, well actually I was told

56:21

I was pretty good at it. Anyway, yeah, give yourself

56:24

permission to be bad at it. Be honest with

56:26

the guy that you want to get with about

56:28

how inexperienced you are. Any guy who

56:31

doesn't want to be your first is

56:34

going to decline to be your first if they know

56:37

they're your first guy. Then you're

56:40

going to have to pick through the guys who would

56:42

be psyched to be your first or your

56:44

second and meet up with them. And

56:47

you know, one

56:50

thing you might have to let go from

56:52

all of your previous sexual encounters, relationships being

56:55

with women is this idea that

56:57

you've gotten into your head that what women want

56:59

to see if there's going to be a sexual

57:01

encounter is that there's a possibility for a relationship

57:03

there that even that first sexual

57:05

encounter is a step toward that relationship escalator.

57:08

That's not what guys are looking for on Grindr. You

57:11

don't have to worry about getting

57:13

into bed with some guy who's secretly hoping

57:15

that you will marry him. No guy

57:18

off Grindr meeting up with a 32

57:21

year old bi guy who's never fucked a guy is

57:24

thinking about the wedding. They're just

57:26

thinking about the dick. Time

57:30

for listener feedback. First up, some of the

57:32

comments left on last week's show in the

57:34

very lively comment threads at savage.love says compass.

57:37

I so enjoyed listening to John and Maria.

57:39

My husband and I are not into BDSM,

57:41

but we do like to share each other

57:44

with others, not a frequent experience once every

57:46

two or three years. That works for us.

57:49

Cheers though to a lovely couple. Please

57:51

Dan more interviews with those who have

57:53

made their shared desires work for them.

57:56

I really like what are you doing?

57:58

Well, compass, you'll be glad to hear

58:00

them. that we are planning to do

58:02

more, what are you doings in the

58:04

future? Says Jonathan, I've got to say

58:06

I'm not convinced that a vasectomy wouldn't

58:08

change the look slash taste of cum.

58:11

I understand the argument from low

58:13

percentage by mass or volume, sure,

58:15

but salt or hot sauce are

58:18

low percentages of a dish and

58:20

omitting them changes things recognizably. But

58:23

says Apple Scruff 909, as

58:25

somebody who has ingested both pre

58:27

and post vasectomy ejaculate, I submit

58:30

that in my experience, the flavor did

58:32

not change. And finally, by Dan Fan, after

58:34

listening to last week's intro, where I

58:36

mentioned that Christian conservatives used to fear that

58:39

boys with long hair would turn other

58:41

boys gay, by Dan Fan said

58:43

long haired boys had the opposite effect on her.

58:46

We could remind the Christians that boys with long

58:48

hair have stopped me from being a lesbian.

58:50

All right, for more listener feedback of

58:53

the print variety checkout struggle session every

58:55

Thursday where I respond to listener and

58:57

reader comments and post a letter that

58:59

isn't gonna make it into savage love the

59:01

column and let my subs give advice.

59:03

And now drum roll please, everyone's favorite

59:05

part of the show, the part where

59:07

I shut my big gay mouth and

59:10

let my listeners have the last word.

59:12

Hi Dan, this is for the caller from

59:15

episode 933 that

59:17

they opened their marriage and the husband can't

59:19

find anyone to play with. I'm a single

59:21

girl in the lifestyle. When I talk to

59:23

a man that is married and

59:25

I don't see the wife, I ask him meet

59:27

or talk to the wife. If the husband says

59:29

that I can't talk or meet the wife, I

59:32

walk away. Lifestyle 101 always

59:34

includes a spouse. So as a

59:36

couple, you need to be

59:38

in the lifestyle for both of you and not

59:40

one. Hi Dan, this is

59:42

a comment on the ABDL sex room. You

59:44

had commented on having someone just tell them

59:47

it's a sex room and that they can't

59:49

go in there. It seems to

59:51

me that you might want to also suggest that

59:53

they put a proper lock on it at minimum.

59:56

I think the secret room

59:58

idea is a good one is perhaps a bit. expensive

1:00:00

but a simple lock might be all

1:00:02

that's additionally required. I know

1:00:04

I'm dating myself here but in the

1:00:06

90s people used to worry about folks

1:00:08

going through their medicine closet when they

1:00:10

would go into a bathroom in their

1:00:12

house and learn information about them that

1:00:14

they shouldn't and I similarly worry that

1:00:16

without any kind of barrier once

1:00:19

people know that it's a sex room they may

1:00:21

find some sort of like illicit throat going in

1:00:23

there and seeing what is in

1:00:25

that space and for

1:00:28

these particular callers that might be a lot more

1:00:31

impactful and consequential on their social

1:00:33

circle than even BDSM might be.

1:00:35

Just wanted to throw that out there. Good luck with

1:00:38

the sex room. Dan this

1:00:40

is a comment on 933 about the

1:00:42

22 year old dude who wants to be a

1:00:44

sub. I feel like

1:00:46

you even tiptoed up to this earlier

1:00:49

in your conversation and then you didn't

1:00:51

apply it but she needs to be

1:00:53

looking at older women. You

1:00:55

talked about women growing into kink

1:00:57

versus men arriving with them fully

1:01:00

formed. That guy needs to

1:01:02

be hitting the cougars up. I think a lot

1:01:04

of them would love to have a great time

1:01:06

with him. And

1:01:09

we're gonna leave it there. We've got three

1:01:12

ways for you to get us your questions

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or comments for future shows. You can record

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your question or comment directly onto our website

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at savage.love.askdam or you can make a voice

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or you can call our landline and leave

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us a message at 206-302-2064.

1:01:32

Hump is halfway through its fall tour.

1:01:35

This weekend you can catch Hump 2024

1:01:38

part 2 25 brand new

1:01:40

never seen before. Amazing, hilarious,

1:01:42

sexy, shocking Hump films. You

1:01:44

can catch the show in

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Seattle, Albuquerque, LA, Missoula,

1:01:48

Madison and Toronto. You can't make it

1:01:50

to a theater or Hump isn't coming

1:01:52

to a theater near you. You

1:01:54

can stream Hump online at home. Go

1:01:56

to humpfilmfest.com for tickets to a screening.

1:01:58

or to get streaming passings. And while

1:02:01

you're there, click on Submit a Film

1:02:03

to find out how you can get

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your Dirty Little Movie into

1:02:07

my Dirty Little Movie Film Festival. Follow

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me on Instagram and threads, at Dan

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Savage. Follow me at Blue Sky at

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Dan Savage. Follow Esther Perel on threads

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and Instagram at Esther Perel Official. Check

1:02:19

out her website, esterepearl.com, where you can

1:02:21

find her books and her hidden podcast,

1:02:23

where shall we begin. Also on all

1:02:26

podcast platforms and learn more about her

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new online courses by clicking on

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courses. Savage Lovecast is produced every week by

1:02:32

Nancy Hartunian and me and the tech savvy

1:02:34

at risk youth and Nancy. We will all

1:02:36

be back at you next week. My installment

1:02:38

of the Savage Lovecast. Thank you

1:02:41

for coming.