0:04

Call them changemakers. Call them rule

0:06

breakers. We call them

0:08

redefiners. Join us in conversation

0:10

with daring leaders who are creating

0:12

extraordinary impact and driving change from

0:14

around the globe. Each episode

0:16

gives you a fresh perspective on your

0:19

leadership and career journey. I'm

0:21

Hoda Tahoon, a leadership advisor at

0:23

Russell Reynolds. I'm Clark Murphy, the

0:25

former Chief Executive Officer and Leadership

0:28

Advisor, and this is Redefiners. Hi

0:33

everyone, and welcome back to Redefiners.

0:35

I'm Hoda Tahoon. And I'm Simon

0:38

Kingston. Simon, the term unprecedented

0:40

gets thrown out a lot and

0:42

even may be overused these days.

0:45

But I think it truly applies to a

0:47

record number of national elections that are happening

0:49

around the world in 2024. I

0:52

think we're going to see more than 70 national

0:55

elections with almost half of the

0:57

world's population voting on their country's

0:59

leader, including the European Parliament, the

1:02

United States, the United Kingdom, India,

1:05

and a number more. The results of

1:07

these elections, of course, are going to impact countries and

1:09

perhaps the world for years to come.

1:11

And we know that the elections are

1:13

also going to impact leaders around the

1:15

world in every industry. They certainly

1:17

will, Hoda, and all of this change

1:20

and some of those elections have already

1:22

happened. And we may come on to talk

1:24

about that, but they're happening in the midst of extraordinary

1:27

turbulence in the world caused

1:29

by other things. We're all aware

1:31

of the multiple conflicts with which the world

1:33

is grappling, whether it's in Gaza or

1:35

in Ukraine, the civil strife that's

1:38

afflicting Haiti and South Sudan

1:40

and the Congo. So although

1:42

the global economy is

1:44

showing some signs for

1:47

optimism, there are major

1:49

economic challenges alongside those political and

1:51

social ones that countries

1:53

around the world face. And

1:55

if we add to that a

1:58

crisis in globalization. a

2:00

divergence in the terms in which

2:02

leaders across all sectors engage with

2:04

each other. It's an

2:07

extraordinary time. And when you throw

2:09

in top of that, the potential, but also the

2:11

challenges created by AI and

2:13

other new technologies, it's

2:15

an extraordinary set of challenges

2:17

for leaders to work on. But

2:20

fortunately, we have somebody who can shed some light on

2:22

that, don't we? We do. Our guest

2:24

today is Jose Manuel Barroso,

2:26

chair of the board of

2:29

GAVI, the Vaccine Alliance, and

2:31

non-executive chair of Goldman Sachs International.

2:34

Prior to GAVI, Jose Manuel was the president

2:36

of the European Commission from 2004 to 2014,

2:38

where he presided over the largest

2:42

expansion of the European Union member countries from

2:45

15 to 28. He was also a key

2:47

figure responding

2:49

to the financial and sovereign debt crisis in

2:51

the euro area and beyond. And

2:53

before that, he held leadership roles at

2:56

the European Commission. He was prime minister

2:58

of Portugal from 2002 to 2004. Jose

3:01

Manuel has also previously served

3:03

in academic roles at the

3:05

University of Lisbon, the University

3:07

of Geneva, and Georgetown University

3:09

in Washington, DC. Jose Manuel,

3:12

welcome to Redefiners. My

3:14

pleasure, my pleasure to be with you, Jona,

3:16

and also with Simon. Jose, you've

3:18

been deeply involved both in academics and

3:20

politics throughout your career, and early in your

3:22

career, you were a teaching assistant at

3:24

the universities of Lisbon and Geneva,

3:27

and a visiting professor at Georgetown

3:29

University, at Princeton, and the University

3:31

of Geneva. Can you share some

3:33

insights with us about your journey

3:35

from academia to politics, and what

3:37

motivated you to transition into public

3:39

service? I was always

3:41

between academics and politics, because

3:44

in my country, Portugal, there

3:46

was a revolution in 74.

3:49

I was the first year of the university at that

3:51

time. And when you

3:53

are 18 years old, and you see a

3:55

revolution coming, and a regime,

3:57

that authoritarian regime that was, lasting

4:00

for 48 years, crumbling in

4:02

front of you. Of course you are

4:04

interested by politics because

4:07

everything can change. And

4:09

so I graduated in law in

4:11

Lisbon at the university for after

4:14

five years. But afterwards I went

4:16

to Switzerland to specialise in international

4:18

relations and political science. And

4:20

afterwards I came back to political

4:23

positions. But when there was some possibility,

4:25

for instance, when my party went to

4:27

the position, that's when I went to

4:29

Georgetown University as a visiting professor. So

4:31

I think it's very interesting to see

4:33

politics at the same time as an

4:36

activity. It's your own life but also

4:38

as a kind of a, to meet

4:41

some distance. You are political scientists. You

4:43

try to understand what's going on. You

4:45

try to see what happens both

4:48

inside and outside. Let's

4:51

jump right into the current electoral

4:53

situation then around the world. Hoda

4:55

mentioned the extraordinary exercise in

4:57

democracy that we're going to see in the course of 2024.

5:01

How important is it at a

5:03

macro level really for

5:06

leaders, this sheer

5:08

quantity of electoral activity we're going to

5:10

see? Yes, it seems it's one of

5:13

the most important years in terms of

5:15

number of people that are

5:17

voting all over the world, if not the

5:19

absolute record. Some elections

5:22

are more important than

5:24

others. Some of them, in fact, we

5:26

know the result before the elections take place. That

5:29

happened recently with Russia, for instance, with

5:31

Mr. Putin. Others we don't know, for

5:33

instance, United States. At the moment we

5:35

are speaking we have no idea who

5:38

is going to win. And of course, I think these

5:40

are the ones who are more

5:42

impactful. If you ask me

5:44

what is the election that has more impact

5:46

globally, this year certainly it will

5:48

be the United States

5:51

of America. There are other important elections,

5:53

India being one of the biggest countries, but

5:55

there also we have a pretty good idea

5:57

about what may be the result. and

6:00

not because it's not a democracy, but because

6:02

of the trends of the public opinion there.

6:05

And in Europe, we have European

6:08

parliament elections that are very specific,

6:10

because it's 27 different elections, done

6:12

more or less at the same

6:15

time, and with political families across

6:17

countries. So it's a transnational election,

6:20

but it's not probable that

6:23

one election that takes place in

6:25

27 different countries can

6:28

change dramatically, because some

6:30

countries will see the right wing go

6:32

up, there's not so much. So there

6:35

will be some kind of muddling through,

6:37

I believe, in European parliament elections. And,

6:40

Jose, as we sort of take

6:42

a view from the macro level,

6:44

there's clearly an appetite for globalization,

6:46

but at the same time, there's

6:49

a view that that could be

6:51

decreasing, while populism and nationalism are

6:53

on the rise in many countries around the world. It

6:56

might be even fair to say that democracy

6:58

itself might be on the ballot in some

7:00

countries. How do you see that from

7:02

a democratic norms perspective, and what do

7:05

you think is most at risk? The

7:08

very simple fact that we have all

7:10

these elections, I think, confirms one very

7:13

important point. In spite

7:15

of everything people say, all

7:17

the criticisms we have against democracy,

7:20

people try to find the legitimacy

7:22

of democracy. It's very

7:24

important for a leader to say he or

7:27

she was democratically elected. So

7:30

the reality is that the authoritarian leaders,

7:32

they don't like to say they are

7:35

authoritarian leaders. They don't

7:37

present themselves as totalitarian or

7:39

dictators. They want to say

7:41

they are democratically elected, even

7:43

if sometimes democracy is quite

7:46

debatable, what kind of democracy

7:48

they speak about. But

7:50

the idea of competition, the idea

7:52

that legitimacy comes from the people,

7:55

I think still today, is a

7:57

very, very powerful idea. democracy

8:00

at its problems and we saw

8:02

some of these problems recently, but

8:05

the reality that the prestige of

8:07

democracy is higher than any other

8:09

political regime. That's my first point.

8:11

Now, in terms of globalization, what

8:13

you said, Hoda, you are completely

8:15

right. There is today some

8:18

kind of change in the globalization.

8:21

There is some form of

8:23

reglobalization and this has

8:25

been, let's say, this trend has

8:27

been accelerated by some factors, named

8:29

the competition between United States and

8:31

China, but also the

8:33

pandemic has aggravated the issue

8:35

because of some kind of

8:38

a regionalization of the supply

8:40

chains. I would say to

8:42

some extent that regionalization

8:44

is the new name of globalization.

8:46

We have seen this in

8:49

America, in Europe, China was doing

8:51

that already before. So there

8:54

is, in fact, some kind of backlash

8:56

against some form or some more,

8:58

let's say, more extreme forms

9:00

of globalization. And so it's going to

9:03

be more difficult to navigate this more,

9:05

let's say, complex world now. And

9:09

Jose, you said something really interesting.

9:11

You used the word reglobalization and

9:13

regionalization. What is the

9:15

impact, do you think, of these two areas when

9:17

it comes to business leaders and what they're going

9:19

to be dealing with and thinking through in terms

9:22

of outcomes in a year like this year with

9:24

so many elections? Today business

9:26

leaders, they are giving a much higher

9:28

level of importance to geopolitical risk. For

9:31

instance, I was in Davos, as I've

9:33

been for many, many years going there.

9:36

And I mean, before we were speaking

9:38

about many kinds of operational risk, market

9:40

risk, reputational risk, all

9:42

kinds of risks, but geopolitical risk was

9:44

on top of mind. Now it is

9:46

top of mind. Because,

9:48

for instance, if you have a decoupling, like

9:51

what happened between the United States and Europe

9:53

on one side and Russia on the other

9:56

side after the Ukraine invasion

9:58

by Russia, if something like

10:00

that could happen with China, it could

10:05

happen. But China is one of the biggest economies

10:07

in the world, so in fact, now

10:09

the way people are assessing risk

10:12

in terms of supply chains, also in

10:14

terms of investment flows, is very

10:16

different the way they were looking at it, let's

10:18

say, two or three years before. Thinking

10:21

about regionalisation and staying with your

10:23

home region, Jose Manuel, when you

10:25

were president of the European Commission,

10:28

you presided over a period of

10:30

extraordinary growth and expansion in

10:32

the membership of the European

10:35

Union. And we're witnessing

10:37

it now, again,

10:39

famously for Ukraine, but also

10:41

Moldova and candidate status for

10:43

Georgia, and the opening

10:45

indeed of negotiations with Bosnia and

10:48

her governor. How do

10:50

you see those prospective additions

10:53

affecting the current members of

10:55

the European Union? What is the enlargement

10:58

of the European Union? A great success,

11:00

namely in terms of peace and

11:02

democracy and stability in Europe. Now

11:05

we are speaking about a different kind of

11:08

enlargement, because first of all, we have

11:10

now a war in our continent, not

11:13

in European Union territory, but very close

11:15

in Ukraine. It's one of the biggest

11:17

countries in Europe, in fact, that has

11:20

been invaded by the biggest

11:22

country on the planet from a geographical point of

11:24

view, it's Russia. And we

11:26

are saying this country is going to become a

11:28

member of the European Union, the same we say

11:31

about Georgia and Moldova, countries where

11:33

Russia tries to have a big

11:35

influence. So there is some kind

11:37

of uncertainty when it's going to

11:40

happen. We are working for

11:42

that to happen. For that, of

11:44

course, these countries have to go through a

11:46

process of reform, but also it

11:48

is expected that we'll have at some

11:51

point peace so that they can join

11:53

the European Union. And an obvious

11:56

question, given the sheer diversity of

11:58

those countries, is how Easily

12:00

is the European Union going to

12:02

be able to handle that variety?

12:04

I mean, how close are we

12:06

getting to a multi-speed kind of

12:08

model? Yeah, that's an

12:11

eternal question. But let

12:13

me tell you anecdotally, when I was

12:15

invited to be candidate to president of

12:18

the European Commission, I went

12:20

to speak with a friend of mine, who

12:22

was Lord Carrington, a British

12:24

diplomat who was also secretary general of

12:26

NATO, and he said, oh, my son,

12:28

you are going president of the

12:30

Commission, that's an impossible job. But

12:33

then he said, at the end,

12:35

maybe it's not so impossible. You only

12:37

have two problems, France and Britain. So

12:42

at the end of the day, when we were

12:44

at the table, myself and my colleagues from the

12:46

28 countries, the

12:49

more difficult were two or three. But

12:52

if France, Germany,

12:54

and the UK were agreeing,

12:57

sooner or later consensus comes. So

13:00

the idea that by

13:02

definition being more, it's

13:04

more difficult, it's a myth. It's not true.

13:07

Enlargement has not been against deepening. If

13:09

you look at the votes of the

13:11

European countries in the United Nations, today

13:13

we have 27 members. Their

13:16

vote is more convergent than when we were 12.

13:20

Because there is a culture of

13:22

sharing some common features, some common

13:25

ideas. So I think, of course,

13:27

it's challenging, but it can be

13:29

done. We'll

13:31

be right back with Josie Manuel Barroso.

13:33

But first, we'll hear from

13:36

Tom Hancock, the global lead of

13:38

our Center for Leadership Insight team, based

13:40

in London. Tom

13:42

will highlight key findings from our

13:44

latest Global Leadership Monitor, which tracks

13:46

the top external business threats facing

13:49

organizations today. 2024

13:51

is shaping up to be a year that will

13:53

test leaders across the globe and across industries. The

13:56

economic environment continues to be uncertain.

14:00

grappling with the promise and perils of

14:02

AI, and it is the year

14:04

of elections with roughly half the world's population going

14:06

to the ballot box. It's

14:08

an incredibly complex environment for leaders to

14:10

operate in. So how

14:12

are leaders prioritizing the challenges in front of them?

14:15

What do they believe are the top threats

14:17

to organizational health? And how prepared are they

14:19

to face them? To get

14:22

answers, we gathered survey responses from over 2,700

14:24

leaders across industries and regions. Five

14:28

big themes rise to the fore. First,

14:31

economic uncertainty continues to top our

14:33

ranking of threats to organizational health.

14:35

But critically, there has been a 16 percentage

14:38

point drop in leadership preparedness to face

14:40

it. Second, the availability

14:42

of key talent and skills sits neck

14:44

and neck with economic uncertainty as a

14:46

top threat. Unsurprising when we

14:48

consider that 71% of

14:51

next generation leaders say they're likely

14:53

to make a career move. Third,

14:56

geopolitical uncertainty has climbed the leadership

14:58

agenda again. 45% of leaders

15:01

now rate this as a top five threat,

15:04

up eight percentage points from six months ago.

15:07

Fourth, leaders are also increasingly

15:09

concerned about regulation, yet preparedness for

15:11

this threat has fallen 10 percentage

15:13

points. And finally, technological

15:16

disruption remains high on the agenda,

15:18

with leaders fairly evenly split on

15:20

whether their top team is prepared

15:23

to address it. To

15:26

learn more about the key findings in your country,

15:28

industry, or role, and how the key threats to

15:30

business health have shifted over time,

15:32

click the link to the article in the

15:35

show notes or visit russellreynolds.com. And

15:39

now, back to our conversation

15:41

with José Manuel. José Manuel, if we take

15:43

a moment now to talk about energy and

15:47

the green transition in the EU and

15:49

the rest of the world, the EU has been

15:51

diversifying their energy imports to

15:53

countries like Norway and the United States and others, and

15:56

along with oil and gas, of course, and other

15:58

renewable energy sources, the EU. has achieved its

16:01

20% renewable energy target in 2020

16:03

and now aims to have an

16:05

even higher one by 2030. However,

16:08

there's a host of elections this year, as

16:10

we've been talking about on the podcast

16:13

today, which potentially threaten the pace of

16:15

the green energy transition. And there's

16:17

particular uncertainty in the US and in

16:19

the EU and other countries where some

16:21

candidates might even be pushing back or

16:24

trying to slow down the green transition.

16:27

From your perspective, what are some of the challenges

16:29

you see in achieving this across the EU? You

16:31

are completely right. There has been a lot

16:33

of progress in your opinion. We

16:35

have been living globally in the Copenhagen

16:37

conference, but now I think that in Europe

16:40

and in other parts of the world, there

16:42

is a backlash. I really believe there is

16:44

a risk of slowing down the transition for

16:47

several reasons. While we

16:50

understand the need for the transition, I

16:52

remain committed to that agenda fully. It's

16:55

an existential threat to our planet, so we need

16:57

to do our part. The climate

16:59

transition may have some costs in the

17:01

short term. And when we had in

17:04

our countries all the pressure to support

17:06

Ukraine, to receive refugees, to

17:08

instill the effects of the pandemic, the

17:10

support that was given from a monetary

17:13

and fiscal point of view, all this

17:15

is a lot of money. And

17:18

so we have seen that it's

17:20

very important, that point I like Twilight,

17:22

to make the transition, but make it

17:24

in a socially conscious

17:27

way, sensible way. To give

17:29

an example, in one

17:31

country, I know how, it is in

17:33

fact my country, the government came some

17:35

time ago with a proposal, the previous

17:37

government, to tax those people who have

17:40

cars older than 20 years. Of course, there

17:43

was a rebellion because the people were richer,

17:45

they can buy cars every year, but not

17:48

the other ones. So this

17:50

is not socially fair. So

17:53

it's important that we do the transition

17:55

in a way that we are not

17:57

putting an excessive burden in this.

17:59

the biggest sectors of our society. At

18:01

the same time, it is important that

18:04

everyone does its part. It cannot only

18:06

be Europe or the United States or

18:08

we need globally to be part of

18:10

it. If not, those who are doing

18:12

more, they will say that they are

18:14

being put in a position of competitive

18:17

disadvantage because we are putting limits in

18:19

our industry. So this is very difficult.

18:22

We have seen already in some elections

18:25

recently that some people are

18:27

saying we should do it on a slower

18:29

pace. I will not be

18:31

surprised to see a bigger backlash against the

18:33

more ambitious, let's say, transition

18:36

in terms of the climate

18:38

change. And Joseph Manuel, as

18:41

a sincere ex-politician, how

18:43

important is it for politicians to have

18:46

business leaders who speak up

18:49

at this moment? How useful to

18:51

the political will is that? Simon,

18:54

as you know, I've been in both worlds and

18:57

I can tell you that sometimes

18:59

I'm really impressed about

19:01

the way one world does

19:03

not know the other one. I was in

19:05

the European Commission when we were dealing with

19:08

the financial and sovereign debt crisis. Most

19:10

of the leaders, they did not know

19:13

anything about financial crisis,

19:15

about markets. We knew something about

19:18

public finance, yes, but about the

19:20

way the markets work. Most

19:22

leaders, they don't know. They

19:25

have no corporate experience at all. But

19:27

also, if you go to

19:29

the corporate world, there is not sufficient

19:31

know-how about the way the European politics

19:34

and the European politics is even more

19:36

difficult to read because it's so complex,

19:39

27 countries, different levels. So

19:41

I think it's very important that we

19:43

speak more. There is more

19:45

interaction. And certainly, when you

19:47

are in politics, there is a kind

19:49

of a bubble. There

19:51

is some distance between us and what I

19:54

would call the reality. So leaders

19:57

of the companies, certainly those...

20:00

leaders that have a good and I

20:02

think it's extremely important that they give

20:04

that input, they send that input and

20:06

that there is a transparent way of

20:08

engaging between the corporate world

20:11

and the political level of decision. Fascinating,

20:13

yes. To take another shared

20:16

challenge that leaders in all sectors face

20:18

and that's the use of potentially

20:20

liberating technologies in social

20:22

media and AI to

20:25

spread disinformation and actively

20:28

to polarize. How

20:31

important in this year of

20:33

elections that we've been talking about, do you think

20:36

that issue of misinformation

20:38

and its use by state

20:40

and non-state actors is going to be and what

20:43

can leaders do about it? I mean, yes,

20:45

it's a very serious challenge. In fact, we

20:47

don't know yet how to deal with it.

20:49

Honestly, when we see what's going on in

20:52

the politics today, part of it, I think,

20:55

is because of social media because

20:57

social media has been aggravating the

20:59

tensions polarizing our societies because

21:01

there is not the same kind of,

21:03

let's say, scrutiny that we have in

21:05

the so-called mainstream media where, of course,

21:07

there are more checks and balances also,

21:09

if I may use the word, for

21:11

the media. Today with

21:14

fake news, we are seeing, it's probably

21:16

not a coincidence that we are seeing

21:18

the polarization, not only in Europe, look

21:20

at the United States, look at Brazil,

21:23

look at Asia, what's happening, more

21:25

extreme positions and that coincides with

21:27

a more aggressive, let's say, role

21:29

for new forms of communication, namely

21:32

through social media. So what is

21:34

important from my point of view

21:36

is that the center right or

21:38

the center left, those who want

21:40

to avoid extremism, those who are

21:42

for open societies, I think they

21:44

should be more active there. At

21:47

the same time, trying to create new instruments and

21:50

I know, for instance, in Europe and in

21:52

now, there are some efforts for

21:54

some kind of technology literacy,

21:57

including for young people to try

21:59

to... give people the

22:01

tools to understand what's going on and

22:03

they have to be more critical about

22:05

what they see. They should not take

22:08

for granted just because something was posted.

22:10

That is true. And

22:12

of course with some of new

22:14

developments in tech countries, sometimes this

22:16

is very difficult. And it's a

22:19

real challenge for our democracies. And

22:21

we know there are some powers,

22:23

state powers and rather non-state powers,

22:26

that are using those

22:28

networks to spread misinformation

22:31

and we have to be of course

22:33

more aware of it and explain the

22:35

challenges to the global public. And as

22:38

we look forward and into the future

22:40

specifically in Europe, what do you see

22:42

are the most pressing issues that are

22:44

facing Europe in the coming years? There

22:47

are different challenges, some internal in our

22:49

different systems, our countries, other global. Globally

22:52

of course it's the situation of war. Now

22:54

we have a war in Europe. I

22:57

mean a war of aggression launched by

22:59

Russia against Ukraine and

23:01

test ramifications. It's not just a

23:03

problem for Europe because we see

23:05

weapons coming from Iran and North

23:07

Korea of course to Russia. And

23:09

we see also how this is

23:12

polarizing the world, aggravating this possible

23:14

decoupling. So it's in fact a very

23:16

serious issue. Another internal

23:18

development namely linked with

23:21

raising concerns about

23:23

illegal migration and

23:25

the rise of populist extremist parties.

23:28

Because by definition in Europe, if

23:31

we are a supranational organization, of

23:34

course nationalism is a problem. Some

23:36

people speak about the demographic winter

23:38

of Europe. So we need more

23:41

migrants. But at the same time

23:43

parts of the population are not

23:45

ready to accept more migrants, namely

23:47

when they come from different ethnic

23:49

or religious backgrounds. And this is

23:51

a very, very difficult

23:53

issue, very sensitive issue to

23:55

manage. And that explains part of

23:57

the rise of the world. these

24:00

extremist anti-systemic parties and

24:03

which for Europe is of course a very

24:05

important challenge. And what

24:08

are the leadership strategies do you think that are

24:10

going to be necessary to address these things that

24:12

you've outlined? I think the best thing

24:14

is to be honest and to be transparent and

24:16

to assume and to have the courage to face

24:18

these issues. And today I'm concerned with the fact

24:20

that also because of

24:22

this pressure leaders tend to

24:24

postpone the problems and not

24:27

to face them. We need

24:29

to be honest about these matters

24:31

sometimes having the courage to say

24:33

things that are not popular. To

24:35

win the argument is to have leadership

24:38

that is rational and reasonable but at

24:40

the same time with courage. And

24:43

sometimes what we see today is that

24:45

the extremes to quote a famous Irish

24:47

poem, the extremes are

24:50

full of passion intensity while

24:52

the moderates lack conviction. And

24:55

we need people that are moderate

24:57

in the good sense of the word, I

24:59

mean the soul that have the courage to

25:01

be radical, radical in the sense

25:04

we are going to face these problems

25:06

from a radical point of view with

25:08

courage. And I think we feel

25:10

the lack of this today in the

25:12

political landscape. It's always cheering

25:15

to hear Yates being quoted. I think there

25:17

is almost no redefine as podcast we have

25:20

that shouldn't feature WV Yates at some point.

25:22

And to pick up a point about where in

25:25

the absence of courageous leadership in

25:28

the political sphere you see the

25:30

possibility of courageous leadership

25:32

from others. How far into

25:34

those sorts of social issues do

25:37

you think private sector leaders A

25:40

or needed B should

25:42

stray? That's

25:45

a very difficult issue because of course

25:47

for business leaders what is important

25:49

is of course to maximize profit and that's what

25:52

they are paid for by

25:54

their shareholders. And

25:56

others say no, we have a global

25:58

responsibility. We need both. We

26:01

need both. I believe if you are a

26:03

leader of a company, of course

26:05

you have to maximize revenue for

26:07

your shareholders. At the same time,

26:09

I think we need

26:12

leaders to assume their

26:15

social responsibility because we are,

26:17

in fact, in the defining moment of our

26:19

society. For the reasons we have been discussing,

26:21

from demographic trends to the climate challenge to

26:24

war that is going on in some parts

26:26

of the world, including in Europe, we

26:28

need to have the courage of

26:31

those who are in some position of power, be

26:34

it political power, be it intellectual power,

26:37

be it corporate power, they

26:39

have the platform to communicate and to

26:41

share their vision. And I think

26:43

if they do it with balance and

26:46

intelligence, of course, their

26:48

voices will be heard. So

26:50

yes, it's a matter of

26:52

ethics of conviction, but also

26:54

ethics of responsibility. And

26:57

we have the responsibility towards our community,

26:59

be it the national community or being

27:01

it the global community. I know

27:03

that today is not so fashionable

27:06

to speak about the global community. It's

27:08

very abstract. I don't know

27:10

if you remember that sentence in the

27:12

Brothers Karamazov of Dostoevsky when

27:15

one of the person asked, says, my

27:17

father liked mankind in

27:19

general, but he hated every person

27:22

in particular. And

27:25

when I think about mankind, I

27:27

don't think about an abstract. I

27:30

think about every man, every woman, every child.

27:33

So if you are in a position of power, if

27:36

you are a political leader, a prime

27:38

minister, president of republic, or if you

27:40

are a CEO or chairman of a

27:42

very important corporation, or if you are

27:45

a great, let's say public intellectual, I

27:47

think it's part of our job to

27:50

address in a responsible way these

27:52

issues and to share your vision, to share

27:54

your impression about the need to do something

27:56

for the common good. The common

27:59

good should. remain a priority

28:01

for people who are in positions

28:03

of power, including in the corporate

28:05

world. So inspiring

28:07

to hear you talk in that way, because you

28:10

managed to combine, as Yates would have it, both

28:13

passionate intensity and conviction.

28:16

Were there moments which

28:18

for you came to be defining of

28:20

how you decided on the use

28:23

of your talent, your

28:25

time? Hoda at the beginning asking you

28:27

how you'd found your way into public

28:29

life, but as you pursued that career in

28:31

public life both nationally and

28:33

internationally, are there one

28:36

or two of what we call on

28:38

this podcast redefining moments that spring out

28:40

for you? I would say one of

28:42

the most important for me was in

28:44

fact fighting the financial sovereign debt crisis.

28:46

I was in the European Commission when

28:48

we had the famous Lehman Brothers moment,

28:50

the collapse of the very important institution

28:53

that was presented for some as the

28:55

biggest financial crisis, at least since

28:58

the crisis of the 30s in

29:00

the 20th century, and the

29:02

threats to the Euro at that time. You

29:05

remember that at that time most people were

29:07

saying that it was an avoidable Greece leaving

29:09

the Euro. Many people predicted the

29:11

collapse of the Euro as a currency and

29:14

in fact we were able to show the

29:16

resilience of the European Union.

29:18

Now Greece is a proud member of the

29:20

Euro and the Euro in fact has been

29:23

enlarging. Now we have no more members of

29:25

the Euro as a European currency. That was

29:27

a very important moment that shows the need

29:30

for resilience. Today resilience is a

29:32

world that is quite fashionable. The

29:35

courage of every day to have

29:38

the capacity of pursuing

29:40

in a path even if it

29:42

seems very very difficult and the

29:44

reality that we have done it

29:47

with a lot of let's say difficulties

29:49

because by definition the European Union is

29:52

difficult, it's slow in taking decisions, it's

29:54

fragmented, it's incremental but at the end

29:56

of the day we have been able

29:58

to show. that we

30:01

had sufficient, let's say,

30:03

the forces of integration were

30:05

stronger than the forces of disintegration.

30:08

For me, that was one of the most redefining

30:11

moments, if you want, of my political

30:13

experience. Just say, Manuel, this

30:15

has been an amazing conversation. But before we

30:18

let you go, as our listeners know, we

30:20

like to end every podcast with some rapid-fire

30:22

questions to get to know you even better

30:24

than we have over the last, you know,

30:27

amount of time. This is where

30:29

we ask you a series of questions and you

30:31

respond as quickly as possible. Are you ready?

30:33

Oh my God. I have to go

30:35

through that. But let's do it. I feel the worst,

30:37

but let me... No, no, it's fun. It's fun, we

30:39

promise. Okay, let's go. Okay. Which

30:44

global leader do you admire most?

30:47

They can be living or dead? From

30:49

those I've met by far

30:52

Nelson Mandela. Wow. Okay.

30:55

What do you wish you had learned sooner in your

30:57

life? Not finance. Markets.

31:00

Finance on markets. Financial

31:04

markets. Okay. Out of all

31:06

of the cities you have visited, which

31:08

is your favorite? Lisbon. It's

31:11

my own city. Okay. But

31:14

if I have to say another, I was

31:16

not there because of my city, I will

31:18

still say Florence. Okay. What

31:21

is one piece of advice you would

31:23

share with the next generation of leaders? Never

31:26

lose your enthusiasm even when you

31:28

lose all your

31:30

illusions. Mmm, great.

31:33

What is one subject you'd like to

31:36

learn more about? Botanics. I have a

31:38

great curiosity for everything, but when I

31:40

go to the garden, I don't know

31:43

enough about trees. I like

31:45

to know more about botanics. And

31:47

since you are from Portugal, will

31:50

Cristiano Ronaldo score 1,000 goals

31:53

before he retires? You'll

31:55

be very close to it. Okay.

31:58

Gentlemen, well, this has been... a

32:00

fascinating conversation, one in

32:02

which we could have pursued a whole series of

32:04

other lines of inquiry. But

32:07

thank you so much for joining us

32:09

on Redefiners. It's been a really enjoyable

32:11

discussion. Thanks to you, Simon, and to

32:13

Oda and also all the team that

32:15

prepared it. Thank you. Thank you

32:17

so much. So

32:20

it was wonderful listening to Jose Manuel.

32:22

We covered a huge amount of ground

32:24

from the elections of this

32:26

year to globalization to

32:28

the threats of misinformation

32:31

and disinformation. Really remarkable

32:33

set of observations that he brought us.

32:36

One on the challenge of

32:38

dialogue between commercial leaders and political

32:40

leaders and the relative ignorance that

32:42

both still have of the world

32:45

of the other. Another

32:47

on the perils of relying too

32:49

much on regulation when it comes

32:51

to dealing with misinformation and disinformation

32:53

problems and the way in which

32:55

AI is managed. A need to

32:57

balance, yes, responsible regulation with a

32:59

focus on education of both young

33:02

people and leaders. And

33:04

despite all of the burden, the

33:06

challenge of such a long

33:08

career in public life, that energy

33:11

with which in our quickfire set

33:13

of questions he offered

33:15

his advice to the next

33:17

generation of leaders, never lose your enthusiasm

33:19

even while you do lose some

33:22

of your illusions. Lots there along

33:24

with that confident prediction about Ronaldo

33:27

for you and a fascinating episode. Thanks

33:32

for joining us on this episode

33:34

of Redefiners. For more compelling insights

33:36

from leaders across industries and around

33:38

the world, listen to Redefiners wherever

33:41

you get your podcasts. To learn

33:43

more or get in contact with

33:45

us, follow Redefiners podcast on Instagram,

33:47

find Russell Reynolds Associates on LinkedIn

33:50

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33:52

website at russellreynolds.com.