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and a funeral, we dive into the story of a German

1:00

con man who built an entire life on fake

1:02

names, lies, and schemes. And the

1:04

unlikely True Crime twist that brought this decades

1:07

long charade crashing

1:08

down. Listen to scamful losers on Amazon

1:10

Music or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:12

Amazing, cake, cake,

1:15

cake, cake, cake, cake, cake,

1:19

cake, cake, cake, hope that you're having a great

1:21

week, and I have a great episode for you this

1:23

weekend. So the first thing I have to

1:25

tell you is I watched a documentary last night

1:27

and, of course, late into the night, it's Hulu.

1:29

It is called TMZ investigates nine

1:32

eleven the fifth plane. This

1:34

is not the first I've heard of this fifth plane.

1:36

This is the first time that I've heard

1:38

The pilot and the flight attendants

1:40

come forward to tell their story. This

1:43

raises mystifying questions about

1:45

nine eleven so called fifth plane and

1:47

demands for the FBI to reveal

1:49

what they know. So in this documentary,

1:51

which is on Hulu, the pilot and

1:53

the three crew members aboard United Flight

1:56

twenty three say that they believed that

1:58

their jet was intended to be used in the attacks.

2:00

They raised questions about why there was

2:02

a Berka clad man sitting in the first

2:04

class with a group of three other

2:07

men. There was nobody else in

2:09

that exclusive compartment. This

2:11

is a special documentary that puts the tragic

2:13

events of nine eleven under the microscope again

2:16

as it focuses on the possibility of

2:18

this fifth plane being targeted by the hijackers.

2:21

As they tell you the story, highly suspicious

2:24

information, the plane took

2:26

off or was to take off early in the morning.

2:28

The plane is typically very cold in the morning.

2:31

So they all board the plane

2:33

around eight o'clock. It takes some time for

2:35

the the plane to actually taxi. So

2:37

it was late taking off One

2:40

of the man that is in this first class cabin

2:42

is profusely sweating. It's a cold

2:44

plane. Something's going

2:46

wrong. There is a

2:48

woman in a burqa, I say that loosely

2:51

because very large framed,

2:53

very tight burqa,

2:56

just the eyes showing, but the hands could

2:58

be seen. The hands were very large, masculine

3:00

looking with hair all over them. Next

3:03

to that person was what seemed to be a bodyguard.

3:05

There was a man with a young boy at

3:07

one point they got up and they go

3:09

to the towards the cockpit and he wants

3:11

to look around. But he's presenting his son

3:14

as like, oh, my son likes to look at the cockpit.

3:17

Very strange behavior that the flight

3:19

attendants noted and said, to the captain.

3:21

They called on their little phones

3:23

to said, something's not right up here.

3:26

They also were eager for the plane

3:28

to take off. Like I said, it was

3:30

late taxiing. There were some issues with

3:32

the menu, and both flight attendants were trying to explain

3:35

it to the men in the cabin. And they're like, we don't

3:37

care about the food. We want to take off.

3:39

We want to take off. But at

3:41

some point, they're told to turn the plane

3:43

back around because news of

3:45

the attacks happen. So

3:48

the plane goes back, everyone's asked to

3:50

evacuate the plane, everyone gets off

3:52

the plane, then the crew members go off the plane,

3:54

that plane is locked. What is

3:56

strange is that the FBI

3:58

leader goes on to the plane. There

4:00

are people that work in luggage that

4:03

said that after that plane

4:05

was locked up and everybody had gotten off the plane.

4:08

They saw men running

4:10

inside the plane. So

4:12

had they hid in the plane and then tried

4:14

to get rid of weapons

4:16

that had they had left in the plane?

4:19

Well, the mysterious part is that when the FBI

4:21

went back on the plane, the hatch was open

4:23

in the floor. And

4:26

there is somebody in the documentary that

4:28

shows how you can access the

4:30

inside of the plane by the bottom of the plane.

4:32

There's like lever that you pull and then you can

4:35

pull yourself up and then go in up the ladder.

4:37

It reminded me of MH3 seventy

4:39

on Netflix about the docu series, about the

4:41

plane that disappeared. The Malaysian

4:44

Airlines plane. And how of

4:46

the three theories there was that second theory that

4:48

someone had intercept the transponder by

4:50

opening up the carpet and going down the

4:52

hatch. Completely reminded me

4:54

of it. Were those four

4:56

men attempting to hijack United

4:59

twenty three? What else is interesting is,

5:02

When those planes were brought back and

5:04

people went through all of the planes,

5:07

the plane that was adjacent to it, which

5:09

was just one number off as

5:11

far as the the serial numbers. They

5:14

found two box cutters in that plane. Had

5:16

somebody put the wrong cargo in the wrong

5:18

plane? Just very mysterious. Now

5:21

the people that were on that plane seem

5:23

to have disappeared into the

5:25

Neverland. Where are those people?

5:27

The FBI and the nine eleven Commission

5:30

do not seem to be forthright

5:32

about who those people were. It's

5:34

also not included in the nine eleven Commission

5:37

report which took three years to make. Bob Carey,

5:39

who was on that commission, is in this documentary,

5:41

and he says, well,

5:43

we just didn't have enough time to review

5:46

every single piece of information. It

5:48

took them three years, and there's not

5:50

one mention of the strange occurrence

5:52

on United Flight twenty three from

5:55

New York that was to go to LA. Highly

5:57

suspicious information. I am eager

5:59

for all of you to watch. As you

6:01

know, I've done a ton of nine eleven related

6:03

podcast episodes. I have

6:06

my own connection to nine eleven. I would love

6:08

for you to review it and tell me what you think. It's

6:10

called TMZ investigates nine

6:12

eleven the fifth plane it is on Hulu

6:14

must watch. In this episode,

6:17

I had a great privilege to talk talking to director

6:20

Nicole Norin about an incredible ESPN

6:22

documentary that I'm so eager for

6:24

all of you to watch as well. It tells

6:26

the story of Lauren McCluskey who

6:29

is a twenty one year old woman, a

6:31

standout athlete at the University of

6:33

Utah, who was murdered

6:35

tragically in twenty eighteen. It

6:37

examines the short relationship that preceded

6:39

her murder, the life of the man who committed

6:42

it, and the failures that enabled

6:44

him. This is a must

6:46

watch doc with such an incredible message

6:49

and you can watch, listen,

6:51

it will debut on Tuesday, March twenty

6:54

eight, seven PM eastern on ESPN

6:56

plus and ESPN plus

6:59

on Hulu, a special episode

7:01

of ABC's twenty twenty running

7:03

out of time based on ESPN's investigation

7:06

will air Friday, March thirty

7:08

first at nine PM. Again, a

7:10

must watch documentary and I'm so eager for

7:12

you to hear that story as

7:14

well. So with me now is

7:16

the director Nicole Norin.

7:19

Five seconds left, and he shoots,

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7:49

Bad dates. We've all had them.

7:52

Everyone can relate to them. And now it's

7:54

time to celebrate them. I'm Jamita Jamal,

7:56

and each week I welcome my favorite comedian,

7:58

celebrities, and funny friends to share the romantic

8:01

misfires that they faced on the road

8:03

to

8:03

love, to shagging, or both.

8:05

We'll have guests like Roy Wood Jr.

8:07

She has a place to live, I don't. So

8:09

I'm on my homosexual shit and I'm over

8:11

there.

8:13

Oh, my sexual. Yeah.

8:16

Nikki

8:16

Glaser, I dated this guy and I really

8:18

like him. One date, he said

8:21

cool

8:21

beans, seriously.

8:23

And I could not

8:25

and Conan Bucking O'Brien.

8:27

Let's just watch the swearing. Okay? Yeah.

8:29

So weren't for that f bomb. This whole thing would be

8:31

suitable for children. So

8:34

come join us for bad dates stories that'll make

8:36

you laugh a lot, cry a little, and

8:38

cringe just enough. Follow

8:40

bad dates wherever you get your podcast. You

8:42

can listen early and add free on the Amazon

8:45

Music or Wondery app.

8:51

When

8:51

Lauren McCluskey decided to attend the University

8:54

of Utah, she was recruited to become a member

8:56

of the women's track and field team. She

8:58

was a Washington State champion in the

9:00

high jump and ranked tenth in the Heptathlon

9:03

at the USTF Outdoor Championships.

9:06

She had several other colleges and scholarships

9:08

to choose from. On October

9:10

twenty two, twenty eighteen at nine fifty

9:12

five PM, Twenty one year old Lauren

9:14

was found dead inside, the back of

9:16

a car in the parking lot next to her University

9:19

of Utah campus dormitory. She

9:21

had been shot seven times. Earlier

9:24

that afternoon, Lauren's ex boyfriend, Melvin

9:26

Rolland, had waited for her in her

9:28

residence hall for several hours.

9:31

She'd been on the phone with her mother at eight twenty

9:33

PM when he confronted her at the door

9:35

of her dorm. She dropped her phone

9:37

in belongings as he violently dragged her across

9:39

the parking lot. At eight twenty

9:41

three, Matt McCluskey alerted campus

9:43

security that his daughter was in danger, and

9:46

it may have just been as she was murdered.

9:49

Hours later after he fled campus and

9:51

went on a date with woman he had met on a dating

9:53

app, Melvin Rollins slipped into

9:55

the back door of a church where he was later

9:57

found dead from the self inflicted gunshot.

10:01

Lauren met Melvin Rolland on September second

10:03

of twenty eighteen just six weeks before her

10:06

murder. He told her that he was in the military

10:08

and trained as a security officer. And

10:11

afterwards, they met up few times. It

10:13

wasn't long before she discovered the truth.

10:15

Roland was on parole and on the sexual

10:18

offender list. He was convicted in twenty

10:20

o four on a felony charge of enticing

10:22

a minor and attempted forcible sexual

10:24

abuse, also a felony, according

10:27

to the Utah Department of Corrections, sex

10:29

offender registry. He was released

10:31

in twenty thirteen. She confronted

10:34

Roland face to face in her dorm room and

10:36

he owned it up to it. And she

10:38

formally ended their relationship. But

10:40

she continued to receive messages and threats from

10:43

him. He used fake social media accounts

10:45

and phone numbers to pretend. His

10:47

friends had posted about his suicide, which

10:49

was fake. On social

10:51

media and blamed MCCLUSKEY as the

10:53

cause. He made frequent

10:56

attempts and sometimes successful to visit

10:58

her at the university dorm. And at

11:00

one point, he demanded one thousand dollars

11:02

from her to prevent him from posting explicit

11:05

photos of the two of them. As

11:07

his actions escalated, she began

11:09

voicing concerns to her immediate family

11:11

and closest friends. Because he

11:13

was a con and highly manipulative, She

11:16

didn't always believe he was a threat or

11:18

that her life was in danger, and

11:20

thus she wished to take care of the situation

11:22

by herself. But she became

11:24

increasingly concerned and even frightened

11:26

by his actions toward her over a short

11:28

time. On October

11:31

thirteenth of twenty eighteen, Lauren

11:33

again contacted university police that morning

11:36

to report receiving additional messages she

11:38

believed were from her ex boyfriend, or

11:40

his friends. The messages

11:42

demanded money in exchange for not

11:44

posting compromising photos of the two

11:47

of them. She stated that she had

11:49

sent one thousand dollars to the account as demanded

11:51

in hopes of keeping the photos private. A

11:53

report was taken, a criminal history

11:55

was pulled, and the case was assigned to attractive

11:58

for follow-up on possible sexual extortion

12:00

charges. But that officer

12:03

never investigated her claims. And

12:05

at some point, he called her with a strange request.

12:08

He asked her to hand over the explicit

12:10

photos mentioned in the case, which he

12:12

then downloaded onto his personal phone and

12:14

showed his co workers. It

12:17

took sixties for a formal investigation of

12:19

the extortion charges to begin. A

12:21

detective contacted Lauren to gather

12:23

additional information about the extortion, to

12:26

identify all suspects possibly involved

12:28

and to seek an arrest warrant for Melvin Rowland,

12:31

and or his acquaintance is responsible for

12:33

the alleged crime. October

12:35

nineteenth to the 22nd of twenty eighteen,

12:38

campus police assessed security video

12:40

that showed him various locations around

12:42

the University of Utah campus. And

12:45

then on October twenty second of twenty

12:47

eighteen, after the detective had been

12:49

assigned to Lauren's case, she emailed Campus

12:51

Police Reporting, she'd received additional text

12:54

from an unknown number who was claiming to be

12:56

deputy chief Rick Lennon asking her

12:58

to come to the police station. University

13:01

Police said they believe that that tax came from

13:03

Roland with the intent of getting her to leave her

13:05

dorm. Lauren McCluskey

13:07

realized her boyfriend might not be the person who

13:09

she thought he was. And worse that he

13:11

might be dangerous. So she broke up with

13:13

him and plead for help as he stalked

13:15

and extorted her. And no

13:17

one listened. And she was murdered.

13:20

Her murder was not an isolated incident, but

13:22

was part of a much larger systematic

13:25

problem affecting women across the Wondery,

13:27

an epidemic of campus dating violence.

13:30

Nearly half of dating college women report

13:32

experiencing violence and abusive dating behaviors.

13:35

Girls and young women between ages of sixteen

13:37

and twenty four experienced the highest rate

13:39

of intimate partner violence, among

13:42

triple the average nationally according

13:44

to the Bureau of Justice Statistics. But

13:47

what's very unusual about her case

13:49

is not that she was the victim of dating violence.

13:53

What is unusual is that she had fortitude

13:55

to recognize the danger that she was in

13:57

early on, and that she asked

13:59

for help from authorities responsible for

14:01

protecting her. So in a

14:04

new investigative documentary that exposes

14:06

vast institutional failure, ESPN

14:09

explores Lauren McCluskey's life death

14:11

and her parents' quest for answers. As

14:14

documented in listen, the

14:16

people and the institutions responsible for

14:18

protecting her failed her at

14:21

every turn. This ninety

14:23

minute documentary contains new information

14:25

and interviews as well as never before seen

14:27

Surveillance video, police and dispatch

14:30

recordings, previously unreleased video

14:32

and audio interviews from the homicide investigation,

14:35

phone recordings and more. Listen

14:38

is part true crime and part accountability

14:40

journalism. It is done by

14:42

award winning ESPN journalist, T.

14:44

J. Quinn and Nicole Noran, who've been

14:47

reporting this story for four years and

14:49

gave window into their investigation and

14:51

ongoing battles to obtain records from the

14:53

University of Utah. In addition,

14:56

two interviews with the victim's parents Jill and

14:58

Matt McCluskey of Coleman, Washington. The

15:00

documentary features numerous people connected

15:02

to the case speaking publicly for the

15:04

very first time. Here is my interview

15:07

with the director, Nicole Norin.

15:13

Listen Dave used Tuesday, March twenty eight

15:15

on ESPN plus and ESPN

15:17

plus on Hulu, a special episode

15:20

of ABC's twenty twenty running out of time

15:22

based on ESPN's investigation, airs

15:24

Friday, March thirty first at nine PM,

15:27

Nicole Norén, Listen's director

15:29

joins me. Welcome to the show. Thanks,

15:31

Kate. Thanks for having me. You

15:34

have directed and produced ESPN documentaries,

15:36

lots of them about gender based violence.

15:39

Correct. When did you first hear this

15:41

case? And what was it about it that

15:43

tugged to you? Well, we started

15:46

watching the news. It was

15:48

it was a big story in October when Lauren

15:50

was murdered. It was covered happily. We

15:53

were I pay attention to those stories just in

15:55

in my wheelhouse, and I'm interested in the topic.

15:57

And a few of us started keeping an eye on it and

15:59

watching the developments. And then in December,

16:02

few months after the murder, there

16:04

were couple independent investigations that

16:07

were released, and the school released

16:09

an independent investigation they had commissioned

16:12

And I noticed something in

16:15

the actual investigation that piqued

16:17

my interest, and I thought it

16:19

was a little abnormal. It

16:21

made me want to dig

16:23

a little bit more and understand what what

16:25

it was was they the university

16:27

had taken the position. Lauren had seen

16:30

a counselor a few times

16:33

after she broke up with Melvin Rolland

16:35

and before she was murdered. And

16:38

the investigators had tried to tried

16:40

to get information about that. And

16:43

the university really quickly

16:45

after the murder, the lawyers

16:47

got involved and said that privilege

16:50

extends postmortem, meaning

16:53

that no one

16:55

and even the police, we found out later police had

16:57

tried to actually talk to the counselor too and the

16:59

same argument was used. Now I know from

17:01

covering numerous cases at

17:03

universities also doing lot of mental health

17:05

stories. That that's

17:07

not typically true. It

17:10

doesn't. When someone dies,

17:12

it's actually the discretion usually of a mental

17:14

health professional. If they wanna share those

17:16

records with the legal nexus of kin. And

17:19

so that made me that

17:21

made me perk up and and wanna know more.

17:23

And and, like, my co producer

17:25

and producer and producer and

17:28

I pitched the story to our bosses

17:30

and wanted to proceed once we

17:32

knew little bit more about

17:34

that. It was your pitch that other

17:36

institutions of higher education do not

17:38

recognize this level of privilege once the

17:40

individual is

17:41

deceased. Because I'm assuming

17:43

you had never heard this argument before.

17:45

I had never heard the argument. I'd never seen it.

17:47

And other stories we've done, we actually did a story

17:49

on swimmer at the University of Missouri

17:51

who was no longer alive and we got extensive

17:53

mental health records and counseling records in

17:55

that case. So I knew that oftentimes

17:58

you do a third party privacy

18:00

waiver and you're able to get those types of

18:02

records, the family of of deceased

18:04

students or deceased patients, I should

18:06

say. Isn't really a school issue.

18:09

It's a mental health records issue. Sometimes

18:11

it becomes a little complicated when you when you

18:13

have universities in the middle, though. But,

18:15

yeah, I'd never seen this argument made,

18:17

and the investigators actually noted it in

18:19

their report that they thought it was abnormal,

18:21

and they had never seen institution

18:23

of higher learning used this argument before,

18:26

so that it wasn't just my

18:27

opinion. It was actually the investigators noted

18:29

in their report as well. No. I know

18:31

this project took four years. Why

18:34

did it take four years? And what sort

18:36

of resistance did you experience if

18:38

any? Well, there was a a lawsuit

18:40

that was filed fairly soon after we started working

18:42

on our story, the McCluskey suit with the school.

18:46

And that that can always complicate

18:48

things and make things take longer when

18:50

that process is moving forward. The

18:53

the way that I wanted to cover this and we wanted

18:55

to cover it was we wanted to gather all

18:58

of the the assets and information

19:00

that we could, and we knew there were based

19:02

on the police report, we knew there was extensive

19:05

surveillance video of Lauren

19:07

and Melvin Rowland before she was murdered.

19:10

And we wanted to get, not only those videos,

19:12

we wanted to also get the entire investigative file.

19:14

So that took a long time. It took

19:17

many many I think we had over fifteen public

19:19

records requests at the university. It

19:21

was not an easy road. It

19:24

was probably it was definitely complicated because of

19:26

a pending lawsuit or an

19:28

actual active lawsuit pending litigation, I should

19:30

say. But it

19:32

took a long time too, just because of the timing

19:34

of during COVID, there was

19:37

a travel restriction It was a little it was

19:39

complicated because of that even more so.

19:42

And just the reporting, it took many of the

19:44

people that actually ended up speaking in our

19:46

doc didn't do it till after

19:49

two years of talking to them. And

19:52

we just took our time and we wanted to tell

19:54

the story right. We I I purposely

19:56

wanted to almost look at it like

19:58

not be in the weeds competing

20:00

with, like, some of the locals that were

20:02

doing a a tremendous job of covering this story.

20:04

In others, I wanted to step back and

20:06

look at how this story was covered as

20:09

well, which I think is always really interesting

20:11

thing. And document documentarians can

20:13

do that and it's a a neat

20:15

look to see how the coverage transpires

20:18

and what happens. But all along, we were doing

20:20

stuff behind the scenes. We just weren't really actively

20:22

recording what we were discovering because

20:24

we were trying to get

20:26

the complete picture before we were able to

20:28

come forward and present it.

20:30

One of the most complicated parts of this

20:32

and I think this speaks to crimes

20:35

that occur throughout the country is

20:37

that it happened on a college

20:38

campus. And then you have all of these

20:40

jurisdiction issues. Howard Bauchner: It does

20:42

complicate it when you have, say,

20:44

you have a student and you have

20:47

Another another person involved who might not

20:49

be a student. So

20:52

there's always jurisdictional issues when

20:54

you dealing with campus police, city

20:56

police, state. It

20:58

it gets and there's different

21:00

levels too. I think when there's different types of

21:02

crimes involved. Some,

21:04

as we've seen, we've covered a lot of cases

21:06

where it might be a smaller

21:09

town where it's a huge university and

21:11

everything revolves around that school.

21:13

So that gets things even more complicated. It's

21:15

hard. There's been a movement in the last few

21:17

years for sure looking at campus police

21:19

and a lot of talk about whether campus

21:22

police are even suited to be investigating

21:24

these serious crimes like this. So it's been

21:26

it's been in the dialogue. I feel at least

21:28

in the public, but jurisdictional issues

21:32

kind of enter the picture

21:34

when acts might be

21:37

happening whether they're on campus

21:39

or off campus, whether it's a student or not a

21:41

student. And this has come up even more so there's

21:43

been a recent title nine case that

21:45

was decided in courts in

21:47

Utah that there

21:49

was decision by a judge where

21:52

they were saying that the school did not have as much

21:54

of an obligation. To get involved

21:56

in student's safety

21:58

because the person she was accusing

22:00

of was not a student. But that's they're and

22:03

that's a trend that's happening across the too.

22:05

That's really interesting. This became

22:07

an issue in this case because Lauren was

22:10

dealing with the campus police the

22:12

whole time and many times she went and tried

22:14

to speak to we have the recordings. It's

22:16

actually in the documentary where she called Salt

22:18

Lake City

22:19

Police, and and was trying

22:21

to get more action. And they kept kicking

22:23

her back to the campus police because technically

22:26

the case should be had been dealing

22:28

with, you know, dealt with by the campus police.

22:30

Wondery thing that stuck with me when you listen

22:32

to some of those audio recordings is

22:35

that she's asked to, like, her her mother

22:37

at one point reports it. And then she speaks

22:39

to somebody in campus

22:42

security. And they're asking a question, well,

22:44

your mother called in a report Do

22:46

you need someone to help? And she

22:48

kind of wavers with her voice. And

22:50

you think to yourself, you don't know who else

22:53

may be in the room. You don't know who may be listening

22:55

to a call. So god forbid the person

22:57

on the other end says, no,

22:59

I think I'm fine to blow off

23:02

that call. Like, we

23:04

must always go the extra

23:06

mile to protect somebody. And

23:08

don't always assume that the person on the

23:10

other line who says, yes, I'm fine,

23:12

means

23:12

it. Mhmm. What were

23:14

some of the warning signs that Lauren's

23:16

killer showed over and over? Some

23:19

of the early warning signs that

23:21

her friends noticed and were

23:24

right after they started dating, there was

23:26

the level of control that he was trying to

23:28

put over her. What she could wear, who she

23:30

could hang out with. They and

23:32

they perked up right away. They

23:35

then escalated from there

23:38

to where she was being asked

23:40

to pick him up late late in at night

23:42

from work two AM, buy

23:44

him things. And then the friends

23:46

just started getting more and more concerned. And

23:48

then when he actually brought up that he wanted

23:50

a and one of them her you'll

23:53

hear in the doc, one of her best friends

23:55

there, heard a conversation where

23:57

he called and wondered who she was with and

23:59

was talking to her in a very aggressive tone

24:01

and and her friend was very uncomfortable. With

24:04

that. Then he actually wanted

24:06

to kinda stepped it up and asked

24:08

her if wanted to take her shooting

24:11

and wanted to get her a gun. And

24:13

that's when her friends thought this was

24:15

not their typical friend. This

24:17

isn't something Lauren normally would ever be open

24:19

to doing. And that's when they went and spoke

24:21

to one of the managers,

24:24

the resident, like how is an adviser who's in

24:26

our documentary.

24:27

Were there any people that were in

24:30

his own life that later said that

24:32

they saw warning signs in the last

24:34

couple days before the murder. Erratic

24:37

behavior, anything that would have pointed to,

24:39

he was planning to do

24:41

something. Howard Bauchner: There Well, now that we

24:43

know from acquiring police interviews,

24:45

he actually told coworkers,

24:48

so six days before he

24:51

murdered her, he went and tried

24:53

to resign from his job at a call center at General

24:55

Dynamics Information Technology. And instead

24:58

of he told them they had everything.

25:00

He laid it all out, what had what he had been doing.

25:03

And you

25:05

you can you can hear that and you can hear the supervisor

25:07

recount the conversation in the documentary.

25:10

He also told he told them that he had

25:12

been extorting her Yeah. So

25:14

after she broke up with him, like,

25:17

less than a month into their relationship or

25:19

a little bit after sorry. A little over a month into

25:21

the relationship, she broke up with him, and then everything

25:24

escalated, and he just started

25:26

stocking her more. She wasn't really aware

25:28

fully of what he was doing, but we know based

25:30

on videos from the school, as well

25:32

as now, he was able to access

25:34

her email because she had once logged

25:36

into his email or her email on

25:38

his phone. So she knew she that she

25:40

was communicating with campus police. But

25:43

six days before he murdered

25:45

her, he laid everything out and

25:47

told his supervisor and a couple

25:49

of coworkers what he had been doing.

25:52

And that he had extorted her

25:55

threatening to expose some nude photos

25:57

of of them. And she had

25:59

sent him a thousand dollars and tried

26:01

to send another thousand. And

26:03

he told them that he showed them he pulled

26:05

up his phone and showed them the

26:09

the statute that he had violated on

26:11

his phone and that he would be going back to prison

26:13

because he was on parole at this time. And

26:16

his employer, they were aware of

26:18

that. And, yeah,

26:20

he told so that was a clear warning sign, more

26:22

than warning sign. That was he was telling

26:24

someone what he'd done. But

26:27

other friends mentioned, like, we we they

26:30

we know that his stocking intensified

26:33

based on just some of the surveillance videos that

26:35

we saw. He was tray trailing her

26:38

in the days before he murdered her. There were times

26:40

where she would be going in her dorm and he was

26:42

outside a few minutes later. So

26:45

you'll see all of that through all the use of

26:47

these. We're able to retail the last days

26:49

of her life based on these videos

26:51

that we acquired. The one thing I'd

26:53

really like about that is that for

26:55

every person who is someone

26:58

who lives on a campus, really

27:00

who lives on any sort of community property.

27:03

It just reminds you the importance of security,

27:06

and that just if somebody walks up to a door,

27:08

you don't just let them in. You really have

27:10

to know who they are, they should be showing their

27:12

badge, some sort of security information,

27:15

And sometimes I think on college campuses, you

27:18

see somebody at a party, you talk to

27:20

them a couple times and you assume that it's okay,

27:22

but we really need to be very

27:24

aware of who comes in and out of buildings,

27:26

who keeps walking to

27:28

and from the building, just really

27:30

pay attention and and like I said,

27:33

all of these things are such great reminders

27:35

and hopefully will remain with us

27:38

so that we're always thinking of how other

27:40

people can be protected in honor of Lauren.

27:43

The other part I wondered was, what

27:45

are some of the warnings

27:47

to the people and institutions charged with

27:50

protecting the community? So

27:52

the warning signs that he gave to the larger

27:54

institutions really were in

27:56

the realm of the Board of hardens and parole

27:59

who he spoke with very frankly about

28:02

his behavior and what he had done. And

28:05

then also the adult probation in parole,

28:08

the agency that oversaw him when he was

28:10

out on parole. He first went to prison

28:12

back in two thousand four. He had been

28:15

pleaded guilty to two sex crimes back

28:17

then. We we were able to go back

28:19

and get some of the original documents from

28:21

that. Era in the police reports

28:24

and learned a lot more. We actually spoke the prosecutor

28:26

who first prosecuted him as in the documentary as

28:28

well. And the the

28:30

crimes that happened

28:32

then were pretty shocking

28:35

as far as the details that were never, like,

28:37

let on when the state came out with the report in

28:39

two thousand eighteen. Talking about

28:41

his history in the criminal justice system.

28:43

They just listed his charges that he went

28:46

and that he plea yeah, pleaded guilty for.

28:48

Which were reduced. They were not the rape

28:50

and the the other what he did was he

28:52

actually sexually assaulted

28:54

a seventeen year old high school student, and then

28:56

the next a few days later, he attempted

28:59

to have sex with a who

29:01

he thought was a thirteen year old, but

29:03

it was in reality it

29:06

was the FBI and and the state agency

29:09

doing a sting operation. So it was a

29:11

fake thirteen year old. It was an agent acting

29:13

as a thirteen year old. So he was arrested, and

29:15

the police when they arrested him had had no idea

29:18

that he had raped some point two

29:20

nights before. They soon learned that

29:22

based on the the woman and her

29:24

family coming forward to

29:26

authorities, but they were able

29:28

to then move forward with

29:30

both of those. So he was charged two serious

29:33

felonies. He later went to prison

29:35

for reduced charges because it was gonna

29:37

be very hard to prosecute him

29:39

that The victim

29:41

was very young and had

29:43

a really difficult time when she did her preliminary

29:46

hearing. So the prosecutor was concerned

29:48

and really wanted to make sure that he went to prison

29:50

And so he did that. But they didn't know we were able

29:53

to find that there was even in that year

29:55

before there was another attempted

29:57

rate that was not

30:00

listed anywhere. I it's we were

30:02

not really sure how authorities didn't include

30:04

that or didn't know about it, but another woman said

30:06

she was able to fight him off. And then

30:08

came forward to police and her friend corroborated

30:10

her story. He was in and

30:12

out of prison. He

30:15

went actually he was sentenced one

30:18

to fifteen years and was

30:20

in there much longer than the, I think, original recommended

30:22

sentence. But he kept having quite few

30:24

chances. And what's fascinating

30:26

is we obtained six of the

30:28

parole board hearing audio recordings.

30:31

Five of them had been out previously, but

30:34

we got another Wondery. And there it's

30:36

really fascinating to hear him talk

30:38

about his behavior.

30:41

And he actually left the parole board

30:43

know that in addition to what he had

30:45

gone to prison for, he's he told

30:47

the parole board that there were two other women that

30:49

he had raped. Many people

30:52

didn't know about this until the recordings were

30:54

released more recently. And

30:56

so we spoke to the Pearl board and

30:58

asked them about why those

31:01

grapes that he admitted to oath

31:03

were not pursued and and they gave

31:05

us some an answer to that. It's in the documentary.

31:16

Along this process, you're

31:18

interviewing all of the people that have been involved

31:20

in this hellacious event.

31:24

Did you get a sense that anybody

31:26

felt any culpability? There was

31:28

remorse? There was any sort

31:31

of realization that

31:33

this could have been prevented?

31:34

Howard Bauchner: There absolutely is.

31:36

If this tragedy has impacted

31:39

many people, that were directly

31:41

related directly connected

31:43

to the case. Miguel

31:45

Deres, the police officer who who first

31:47

took Lawrence report and who then

31:49

was in contact with her in

31:51

the in the week before she she was

31:53

murdered. He absolutely he

31:57

explains in the documentary that he he

31:59

is sorry. He wishes that he would have

32:01

taken more action. He was pretty

32:04

lower on the on the totem pole as

32:06

far as It wasn't his job. To take

32:08

action, it was more of the higher ups above him

32:10

and the commanding officers to decide that this

32:12

case needed to be bigger priority. But

32:14

he does he discusses that. And the other

32:16

person who it's very interesting to hear

32:18

from is parole agent, Meghan

32:21

Thompson, was Roland's last parole

32:23

agent. And she has

32:25

had, I would say,

32:28

yeah, a very difficult time. She's no

32:30

longer working in law enforcement. And

32:34

she goes in and really discusses

32:36

how this has impacted her life

32:39

and she did always part of her

32:41

why she wanted to participate in the documentary

32:44

is that she had always wanted to be able to

32:46

talk to Lauren's parents. And tell

32:48

them about,

32:50

you know, that she was holding. It's it

32:53

it has affected a lot of people in many ways.

32:55

And that's why I'm it's

32:59

really nice to be able to let

33:01

those people say because there's there's the RAM effications

33:04

and the tentacles of this tragedy

33:07

reach very far. Talk

33:09

to me about her parents. This has been

33:11

quite fight for them. Her

33:14

her father says in a press conference, this

33:17

is not a place we would ever want

33:19

to be. And our only job

33:21

now is to do something

33:24

as a fight for her for her legacy. What

33:26

has this been like for them? And what

33:28

what are they still doing now to

33:30

protect other potential victims?

33:33

Yeah. They they

33:36

decided very early on that in order to

33:38

survive this this

33:40

tragedy, they they needed to take action and

33:42

and put their energy into that. And

33:45

they in addition to starting the

33:48

Lauren McCluskey Foundation. They

33:51

took the proceeds from they ended up settling

33:53

the lawsuit with the school for thirteen point five

33:56

million dollars. And they committed that

33:58

not dollar of that would go towards anything,

34:00

but the Lauren McCluskey foundation, and

34:02

they would never profit from it. So they've

34:04

put money into the foundation to

34:07

raise awareness. They have

34:09

a campaign called Lauren's Promise that's

34:11

been that's been taken by many,

34:14

many, I think over two hundred schools

34:16

across the country and the world. It's

34:18

a message that educators put on their

34:20

syllabus so students understand

34:23

that they are in a safe place. And if

34:25

they come forward to that person,

34:28

they will be believed. And supported.

34:31

And that's what Lauren and Matt

34:33

really feel that Lauren didn't

34:35

have. Is someone to help

34:37

her. They felt like she

34:39

when she came forward and did the right thing, when her

34:42

friends came forward. And even when Jill called

34:44

the police, they they feel like

34:46

an adult and in a position of

34:48

authority and the ability to help didn't

34:50

didn't step up when they could have. In

34:53

addition to the foundation, They're

34:57

really active with trying to make a difference with

34:59

future safety issues on campus.

35:02

They're developing a campus safety

35:04

score so much like colleges

35:07

being ranked for their education, different

35:09

things. They're trying to develop

35:11

a a safety score like that using the same kind

35:14

of metrics. So they're very

35:16

dedicated to making

35:18

a difference. And, yeah,

35:20

Jill Jill they're both professors

35:22

at at Washington State University. Jill

35:24

actually runs her department. She's a

35:26

very well known agricultural economic and

35:30

very very busy woman, but she

35:32

it's it's their priority

35:35

to make try to make this make sure this doesn't

35:37

happen again. Now, sadly, it's,

35:40

you know, it's been the news that it did happen again

35:42

at the University of Utah, an

35:44

international student was

35:46

murdered there in two thousand

35:49

twenty two. And then the school ended up

35:51

recently settling another

35:53

five million dollar settlement with

35:56

the parents of that students, Zifandong.

35:58

And schools should be celebrated for their safety

36:01

protocols to your point in the

36:03

same way they are about their academics. We have

36:05

a responsibility more than ever to protect

36:07

the students that go off to school.

36:09

Why was this story so important for you to

36:11

tell personally? Well, I've

36:13

as I mentioned before, I this

36:16

topic interests me greatly because I feel

36:18

like so much work can be done still

36:21

in the realm of when

36:23

people come forward to report incidents

36:25

of violence or harassment or

36:27

threats. I feel

36:29

like there's a lot of room for improvement,

36:33

for people to believe, and support,

36:35

and also take to take action. So

36:40

professionally, I care about that

36:42

because I've covered a lot of these stories, and I know that

36:44

you see this you see what happens when people

36:46

aren't supported. Personally,

36:49

it's important to me because I myself

36:51

am a survivor of intimate partner violence.

36:55

It's I've never discussed it publicly.

36:57

Never talked about it even with the McCluskey's. And

37:01

it's to

37:03

to tell this story and to include

37:06

all the nuances of a relationship going

37:09

wrong and the early warning signs and

37:11

to just help people understand to

37:14

look out for those warning signs and to support

37:16

people when they're in that position. Lauren's

37:19

Lauren going to the police with a huge step,

37:22

it's hard for anyone in that type of relationship

37:24

where you suddenly are

37:27

incredibly happy with someone and then things go

37:29

wrong and you realize that they're not who they

37:31

say they are. And she did everything

37:33

right and it was very brave.

37:36

It just sadly fell on ears

37:38

that didn't really take enough action to help

37:40

her at that time.

37:41

I think that so many people that are listening to

37:43

us right now absolutely understand both

37:46

of your experiences. And I

37:49

I wanna also acknowledge that there

37:51

are other women that have come forward

37:53

to talk about the abuses that they've

37:56

suffered from. And they're also

37:58

incredibly brave. This

38:00

is really well done and such an important story.

38:02

And I think you do extraordinary work.

38:05

I wanna first point out that listen debuts

38:07

again on Tuesday, March twenty eight at

38:09

seven PM, eastern time on ESPN

38:11

plus and ESPN plus on Hulu, a

38:14

special episode of ABC's twenty twenty

38:16

running out of time based on ESPN's investigation

38:19

aired Friday, March thirty one at

38:21

nine PM, you have also done other

38:23

great projects. Where can people find

38:25

your work and also follow

38:27

you on socials and also

38:30

the people that work with you on this project?

38:33

Well, T. J. And ITJ. Wayne and I

38:35

met my co reporter on this. We have a

38:37

a multimedia presentation coming out Tuesday.

38:40

About it's also called listen on ESPN

38:43

dot com. And as well as

38:45

previous work is I did AESPN

38:47

film short documentary last year called

38:50

Betsy nerve. That is on

38:52

ESPN It's another story

38:54

about being believed, and it's actually

38:56

a very uplifting story. And

38:59

highly recommend that one as well

39:01

as I'm on socials, Twitter, and

39:02

Instagram, and others. And ESPN Press

39:04

has AAA bio with other links to past stories.

39:07

Thank you. Amazing.

39:13

Kate. I

39:15

wanna thank Nicole Lauren and remind you

39:17

to click subscribe, leave a five star review.

39:20

Join the Facebook group, Reality Life

39:22

with KKC. You can follow me on Twitter

39:24

at kKC. Instagram at

39:27

kKCCA and TikTok. It's

39:29

kKC. You can get my must watch

39:31

list every Monday at kkc

39:33

dot substock dot com. Bonus

39:36

episodes are available at

39:38

Patreon, PATRE0N

39:40

dot com backslash K KC.

39:42

And finally, make sure you listen tomorrow for

39:45

the second part of my short series

39:47

on my personal story. This

39:49

episode's gonna cover some of the

39:51

crazy things that happened to me once I got to

39:53

Washington DC, including be

39:56

coming in intern of the White House during the

39:58

Monica Lewinsky scandal. Thank

40:00

you so much for listening. Again, make sure that you

40:02

are subscribed and leave a five star review.

40:04

And cannot wait to circle back with you

40:06

tomorrow.