0:01

Hello and welcome to Real Crime

0:03

Profile. I'm Lisa Zambetti, host emeritus.

0:06

I was the casting director for

0:08

CBS's Criminal Minds and I'm currently

0:10

the casting director for County Rescue

0:12

Season 2. And

0:15

with me today is... Hi, it's

0:17

Jim Clemente, retired FBI profiler, former

0:19

New York City prosecutor, writer, producer

0:21

of Criminal Minds and Bluebeard on

0:23

Audible as well as FBI profilers,

0:27

Criminal Archives with... Kathy

0:29

Canning-Mellow, so happy to see you both, Jim

0:31

and Lisa. Yeah, it's great to have you.

0:35

Yeah, it's all times again. It's wonderful.

0:38

It's great to have you here, Lisa. So, Lisa,

0:41

we asked you because,

0:43

I mean, how many times have

0:46

we over the past, I don't know,

0:48

decade gone through

0:51

cases that have, you

0:53

know, that are related to entertainment?

0:57

I mean, sometimes it's

0:59

because they're doing documentary series

1:01

about a case. Sometimes it's

1:03

the actual genre

1:05

of the case. And in

1:08

this case, we've been talking

1:10

about Kevin Spacey and the

1:12

allegations that have been running

1:14

rampant about his behavior,

1:16

both on set and off.

1:19

And well, I

1:21

know I've asked you, you know, for

1:23

weeks and we had to wait until you were

1:25

available, but I'm so glad you are. So, because

1:28

this is your area of expertise, that on

1:30

stage and off and what actors do

1:33

and don't do should and shouldn't do,

1:35

know and don't know. So, can you

1:37

just tell us a little bit about

1:39

just the history of this kind of

1:42

sexual harassment behavior

1:44

around film and TV? All

1:47

right. So, first, I have to say

1:49

that this particular case, the behavior of

1:51

Kevin Spacey, whether it is criminal or

1:53

just horrific, you know, it just

1:56

really strikes pain in me. And it was so

1:58

difficult for me to watch his. interview

2:00

with Piers Morgan. And then I watched, as

2:02

you suggested, the HBO documentary, which I encourage

2:04

everybody to watch because the victims really get

2:07

to come forward and tell their stories. And

2:09

I know that you've been covering it. But

2:11

here's the thing. So actors

2:13

are a particularly vulnerable community when

2:16

it comes to not only abuse

2:18

of powerful people above them, but

2:20

abuse by peers. Now what do

2:22

I mean by that? Because our

2:25

training, our work environment, is all

2:27

about being vulnerable. I mean, Jim,

2:29

when I was in class and

2:31

watching Kevin Spacey in this documentary

2:34

swagger around a classroom teaching other

2:36

actors who are trusting him and

2:38

listening to him when all the

2:40

while he's just like a shark

2:44

searching, searching, searching. That's a

2:46

good analogy. A little guppy to

2:48

devour against their will. It

2:51

just it reminded me of rooms that

2:53

I've been in because I've been both

2:55

a teacher and I've both been both

2:58

a student. And when you're training as

3:00

an actor, literally a teacher will put

3:02

their hands on you, right? If I'm

3:04

in a voice class and I'm phonating

3:06

fully, a teacher may

3:08

put or my classmate may put their

3:11

hand on my sternum on the back

3:13

of my neck, on my lower back

3:15

to try to get my resonators to

3:17

fully resonate, right? So it's already, you're

3:20

crossing boundaries already and you're trusting

3:22

people. In a movement class, you're

3:24

tumbling all over each other. In

3:26

an acting class, if I'm doing

3:28

a Shakespeare monologue, my

3:30

teacher might come up and like release

3:33

my jaw, might pull my shoulders back,

3:35

expose the most vulnerable parts

3:37

of me to try to get me in

3:40

a more emotional place. So

3:42

you're already just a wide-opened...

3:44

See, this is why I wanted you on Lisa, this is why

3:47

I wanted you on. I've

3:50

experienced that. Fortunately, I've never

3:52

felt violated, that trust violated,

3:54

but plenty of my friends

3:56

have and I've been a

3:58

teacher too and I'm very aware. of

4:00

those boundaries. And the same

4:02

thing, when you're in a show, you know this,

4:05

Jim, when you're in a show, whether it's a

4:07

play or whether it's a television show, there's a

4:09

camaraderie, there's a family atmosphere. Exactly. You go through,

4:11

you know, working, whatever many hours you're exhausted, and

4:14

you go out for a beer with someone, and

4:16

you hug people. You know, you and I have

4:18

a showrunner who is like, I'm a hugger, she

4:20

doesn't like to shake hands, she likes to hug

4:22

people, you know, and that kind of closeness. Right,

4:25

and that's because, and that's okay,

4:27

because we trust her. That's

4:30

okay, because she doesn't

4:32

violate boundaries, because

4:35

she is trustworthy. But

4:37

when somebody, for example, Kevin

4:39

Spacey, goes up to a, you

4:42

know, first time this actor ever got

4:44

a line, I mean, how excited, how

4:47

exciting is it for an actor to

4:49

get his first line ever on a

4:51

TV series? Oh my God,

4:53

it's huge. Especially as a background actor, like

4:55

he was, this actor Daniel, who had been

4:57

on the set before. You're standing there in

5:00

every scene, but you don't have a line,

5:02

and you know, you're an artist, you're a

5:04

background artist, but you're not even cast by

5:06

the same casting director that casts the rest

5:08

of the show, you know? Mark,

5:11

the difference is, once you get that line,

5:14

you're in SAG after, you've got

5:16

opportunities to open up. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

5:18

So how excited was he that he

5:21

finally got his first line? I watched

5:23

that scene very closely, Jim, when that

5:25

background actor is allowed to come into

5:27

the frame and, you know, whisper a

5:29

message to Kevin Spacey's character, and then

5:32

I noticed that Kevin touches him in

5:35

the scene. Yes, as he walks around.

5:37

Already implying intimacy. You know, that's huge

5:39

for an actor to have the lead

5:41

do that, to give you that kind

5:43

of attention. He's not just, you know, an

5:45

extra anymore. Right, exactly. He's giving the

5:47

attention of- So now this kid who's

5:50

so excited about having his first line, he does

5:52

it, he delivers the line, the

5:54

scene goes flawlessly. Kevin Spacey

5:56

puts his hand on his back or his shoulder or

5:58

something as they walk out. They're connected he

6:01

can say this to everybody that he knows. Oh

6:03

my god I was in the scene with Kevin

6:05

Spacey and this happened and that happened and we

6:07

walked out and he must have been just gushing

6:10

And then to have everything come crashing

6:12

down because as soon as they got

6:14

behind a wall where nobody else could

6:16

see them they were literally inches away

6:19

from other actors and all the

6:21

crew and and Yet Kevin

6:24

Spacey fondles him fondles

6:26

his genitals I mean just

6:28

the most bold and

6:30

and harassing Thing he

6:33

could have done and it just it

6:35

all came crashing down and this is the

6:37

mindfuck because why why at that moment? Did

6:39

he do that? Why not before? Why

6:42

not after when they were at it

6:44

had some privacy or they're out having

6:46

a beer? So why then the power

6:48

play that kind of power and right

6:50

Kathy, he knows this kid is not

6:53

gay I mean, he knows that it's unwanted

6:55

attention. Anyway, go No, I just thought this

6:57

is all really fascinating to me for somebody

6:59

who it lives outside your bubble and knows

7:02

nothing about what it's like To be in

7:04

an acting class or that

7:06

whole world that you guys are immersed in

7:08

that is so new to me But you

7:10

mentioned a couple of times you and Jim

7:12

use the word trust right and how you

7:14

implicitly Trusted your acting

7:17

coaches and in this situation

7:19

I think Kevin reached out and

7:22

touched him to evoke this

7:24

truck Like you can trust me and

7:27

then moments later. He's violating that

7:29

trust which gives him this ultimate

7:32

power and control Like

7:35

I'm Yes,

7:39

I mean Repeatedly in that

7:41

documentary as well as in that Piers

7:43

Morgan in the interview that he leaked

7:45

out information about how how How

7:48

he gets off on it. It

7:50

is the people who don't want

7:52

it his thrill of flipping someone

7:56

of getting somebody who is

7:58

normally not engaged in in

8:00

same-sex activity, involved in

8:03

same-sex activity, that is a

8:05

thrill for him. And clearly

8:07

abusing his power, the fact that

8:09

he knew, no way this

8:11

kid is ever gonna say anything because

8:14

I literally have his life and his genitals

8:17

in the palm of my hand. His

8:19

career will be gone if

8:21

he says something to me. He knows it and I

8:24

know it. So I don't have

8:26

to worry about it. And that taking advantage

8:28

of that, that's just so horrific.

8:30

And the rollercoaster this guy must

8:32

have been on, at the time.

8:35

I don't know if you saw it in the Piers Morgan

8:37

interview, but there's another aspect

8:39

to this. In the Piers Morgan interview,

8:42

Kevin Spacey says, to try to discredit

8:44

that guy, says, look, here's an email

8:46

in which he says, or text where

8:48

he says to me, oh yeah,

8:50

I've been working out a lot lately. And

8:52

Kevin says, oh, pics and pictures,

8:56

and he sends him some pictures.

8:58

And some of the pictures are

9:00

of him, I mean, clearly an

9:02

artistically nude shot of him,

9:05

where he's like a hurdler

9:07

or something. But

9:09

it's not showing his genitals, but

9:12

Kevin Spacey shows this. This happened

9:14

a long time after Kevin

9:16

Spacey had done this to him. So Kevin's

9:19

saying, well, clearly, he couldn't

9:21

have been upset because he sent me this stuff.

9:23

Well, what about the fact that

9:26

this guy still wants to be an

9:28

actor, this guy still wants to be

9:30

accredited with having worked with Kevin Spacey,

9:33

an Academy or two-time Academy Award winner.

9:35

He wants to get involved in these

9:37

things. And he knows if

9:40

he doesn't participate in these kinds

9:42

of interactions with Kevin Spacey, that

9:45

there will be negative consequences. If he

9:47

tells people about it, then it

9:49

will come crashing down, his career,

9:51

right? Yeah, I didn't watch

9:54

that far, and

9:56

I don't know the nature of the photos. I don't know if

9:58

they were suggestive or if they were just, just like, look,

10:00

I got a six pack now. Like, I don't know. Yeah,

10:03

it's just like somebody like hurtling,

10:05

right? So it's

10:07

from the side and it's not showing

10:10

anything, any of his generals or anything,

10:12

but it's clear that they were taken

10:15

in a studio. These were

10:17

probably photographs done, promotional photographs. Like

10:19

a model photograph or something? Yeah,

10:21

absolutely. It wasn't like this was some

10:23

kind of sexting kind of photograph.

10:25

This was clearly, you know, high

10:27

quality artistic photograph. So

10:29

he's already put out these photographs

10:31

in his work. So sharing them

10:33

with Kevin Spacey, it seems like

10:35

it was something it isn't. And

10:38

of course, Piers Morgan immediately says,

10:40

well, clearly that guy wasn't offended

10:42

because this is what he does.

10:44

Well, Piers made a wrong assumption in

10:47

that case. Well, not only

10:49

that, but you both have taught me,

10:51

and certainly Laura has too, that when

10:53

you groom someone, it's not that, and

10:55

you hero, and you hero worship this

10:58

person, you want their approval. You don't

11:00

want them to fuck you, but you

11:02

want them to think you're a great

11:04

actor and to admire you back. That

11:07

ambivalence, that you don't like

11:09

the bad things that they're doing, but you

11:11

still need the good thing, because that is

11:13

your career, that is your life. This

11:15

is something you looked up for and you want it

11:17

to be real. You know,

11:19

how many times has that

11:22

happened with any groomed

11:24

victim? I mean, millions and millions

11:26

and millions of times. It's people

11:28

who don't understand grooming and the

11:30

effects of grooming, like Piers Morgan

11:32

apparently, who misinterpret that behavior.

11:35

The same thing with another one

11:37

of the victims that came forward

11:39

on that documentary. There were

11:41

other, I think he said it

11:43

was 10 years later. There was, oh, great

11:46

to see you, great

11:48

that you stopped by when you were

11:50

in town or that we got to hang out

11:52

when you were in town. And again, he tried

11:54

to use that to undermine that he

11:56

did anything bad to him in the past.

11:58

And I'm telling you, Kevin Spacey, half

12:01

a dozen times or more admitted to

12:04

being handsy, to being overly

12:07

touchy, to doing things that

12:09

now he realizes put people

12:12

in bad situations. He

12:14

admitted it. Yet he's still

12:16

trying to say that he never

12:19

knew that it was wrong and never knew that

12:21

it was unwanted. He never knew that he shouldn't

12:23

do this. How realistic is

12:25

that? Really? Well,

12:28

Jim, you and I both know that we had

12:30

to have a sexual harassment seminar when we were

12:32

on Criminal Minds. I don't know if you remember

12:34

this. Oh yeah, sure. We

12:37

still are doing it. It was a

12:39

mandatory All Hands meeting with CBS, I

12:41

believe, or ABC Studios,

12:43

Human Resources, Trainer. It was several

12:45

hours long and every single person

12:48

who worked on that show, from

12:50

PA to the wardrobe

12:52

people to Matthew Gray Googler, to every single person

12:55

had to be there on that day, no excuses. And

12:57

we went through an enormous training.

12:59

That's the only time that I've ever

13:02

had that kind of a training where

13:04

they clearly defined what the

13:06

boundaries are. Right? But that occurred. And

13:10

that was the only time in all of the many,

13:12

many, many, many years that I'd ever been on the

13:14

show that that happened. Right. But it was around the

13:16

time of me too. It was around the time

13:20

that people started coming forward and it was an attempt

13:22

by the studio to

13:24

make sure that everybody was trained so

13:26

that they didn't have such problems. But

13:28

what happened right after that? What happened

13:30

right after that? You

13:33

mean on that day? Right. Right after that

13:35

meeting with the woman who did the training

13:37

was a very nice but kind of a

13:39

quirky person who had certain catchphrases that she

13:41

used. They wrote an episode making fun of

13:44

it. Are you kidding me? Oh. Wow.

13:47

I didn't write it. I know you didn't. It

13:49

was a good episode, but it was definitely kind

13:51

of a tongue and cheek. We were the only

13:53

ones who knew what it was based on. Because

13:55

there was a particular actor who after

13:58

the training or actually at

14:01

the very end of the training went up

14:03

and you know Interacted with

14:05

this trainer and she was just

14:07

like so Gaga over him that

14:09

remember She was so

14:11

Gaga over him that you know, it was

14:14

like playful But you know, it was

14:16

kind of the opposite of what the

14:18

training was about So yes, some people

14:20

don't take it seriously, but at the

14:22

on the other hand, this is something

14:24

that is known and What

14:27

actor who's gone to Juilliard

14:29

who's done, you know, who's

14:31

done everything from Broadway to

14:34

London to two

14:36

Academy Awards for movies to

14:38

TV now all that

14:40

what actor like that would not be

14:42

aware that as the

14:45

lead actor especially that the last thing

14:47

they can do is Try

14:49

to pick up or try to Assault

14:52

or touch sexually a younger

14:55

more vulnerable lower actor on the

14:57

call sheet Clearly Netflix knew

15:00

about it Right or the production company

15:02

did because if they are moving crew

15:04

members around to get them out their

15:06

assignments out of his orbit Because there's

15:08

been some complaints then somebody in the

15:10

power structure knew maybe not Netflix themselves

15:12

or maybe not studio but somebody knew

15:14

because somebody is moving those crew members

15:16

around and Clearly he knows

15:18

he knows that if people are moving crew

15:20

members out of his reach that something is

15:22

going on So, of course, he knows that

15:24

he's crossing boundaries But he doesn't care because

15:26

he's got two Academy Awards and people are

15:28

constantly handing him more accolades the worse he

15:31

behaves So right, you know, what's the feedback

15:33

loop there? You want to quote one of

15:35

my classes? And

15:38

that was the whole issue with the House of

15:40

Cards contract right the the fact that he

15:42

he knew and He was

15:44

creating this toxic environment and the House of

15:46

Cards Management ended up breaking the contract with

15:48

him and that was a civil suit that

15:51

he ended up being engaged I didn't even

15:53

know that was in there. I would imagine

15:55

he would never have known all that fine

15:57

print He probably never even saw that his

15:59

agent probably did and they probably thought it

16:02

was just like boilerplate stuff. But you know,

16:05

the studio who had, nope, you know,

16:07

you're accountable now for this. But you

16:09

know what, Lisa, in that

16:11

interview with Piers Morgan, Kevin

16:13

Spacey actually says, well, what

16:16

am I supposed to do if I fall

16:18

in love with someone across the room? Am

16:20

I not supposed to approach them just because

16:22

I'm a lead actor?

16:24

Apps are fucking lutely. You are

16:27

not supposed to approach them certainly

16:29

sexually, certainly to put pressure on

16:31

them. You cannot do that.

16:33

And you know that. And yet he's

16:36

still rationalizing that behavior. Who had girlfriends

16:38

and who were clearly telling him over

16:40

and over again that they weren't gay

16:42

and they weren't interested. He

16:45

got the message loud and clear

16:47

and he still pursued them. Yeah, it's just it's

16:50

just horrible. This is terrible. But you know, one

16:52

of the real damages of that Piers Morgan interview,

16:54

I was going to tell you, it's so funny

16:56

that you have you brought it up when you

16:59

did because I was staying over the summer with

17:01

my parents and my mom always has these little

17:03

coffee clutches of her little lady friends who come

17:05

over and, you know, have coffee gossip. And one

17:07

of her friends had just seen the interview and

17:11

was completely believing

17:13

that Kevin Spacey had been wronged and all

17:15

of the he was really the victim. And

17:18

she brought up that photograph thing. And there

17:20

was that young man and he was sending

17:22

him photographs, clearly trying to entrap him. I

17:24

mean, she has no idea. Entrap him. I

17:28

mean, she was just buying it fine and

17:30

sinker. And it took every ounce of my,

17:33

you know, Anthony Rapp is somebody who is

17:35

kind of in my circle. We're not friends,

17:37

but we are certainly in each

17:39

other's circles. And I felt just awful

17:41

for him that he, you know, lost

17:44

his case. And he, you know, was

17:46

brave enough to get up on the

17:48

stand and tell his story about what

17:50

happened to him when he was 14

17:52

years old. And, you know, it didn't

17:54

benefit him at all to come forward.

17:56

Right. But my mom's little friend was

17:58

just like, Oh, these people just want

18:00

money and they just want more fame

18:02

and I'm like that could not be

18:04

farther from the truth. It's such a

18:06

risk to come forward. Right and it

18:08

doesn't bring more fame. The victims coming

18:10

forward doesn't bring them fame. Nobody has

18:12

become famous because they have come forward

18:14

and set made allegations about somebody, somebody

18:17

super famous. No, that doesn't happen.

18:19

In fact, they know that they're

18:21

climbing up a huge mountain to

18:23

try to get over, to get

18:25

people to even believe them, to

18:27

listen to them. Because, I mean, Kevin

18:30

Spacey, I certainly respected the

18:32

hell out of him as an actor. Oh

18:34

my God, I loved his movies. I mean,

18:36

I was horrified by some of his performances

18:38

because they were so evil. You

18:41

know, I mean, in the same way

18:43

that Anthony Hopkins played an amazing serial

18:45

killer, so did Kevin Spacey

18:47

and they both were just

18:50

sickening performances. But

18:52

at the same time, then you find out

18:54

what's going on behind the scenes. Then you find out

18:57

what he's been talking to. Lisa, I

18:59

recently talked to somebody that we both know

19:02

that was cornered by him and he

19:04

didn't take no for an answer and

19:06

he tried repeatedly to put this person

19:09

into a situation where he

19:11

could take advantage. And it's

19:14

like that was his reputation.

19:16

And that reputation, unfortunately,

19:19

nobody, because of his success, nobody

19:21

stomped it down. But Kathy, what

19:23

is it about that? Because he

19:26

could certainly have lots of lovers

19:29

and boyfriends and people who would happily be

19:31

in relationships with him. But that doesn't seem

19:33

to be what gets him off. No, and

19:36

I think it goes back to his childhood

19:38

upbringing, right? He may have a father that's

19:40

a neo-Nazi and suffered abuse, it seems, in

19:42

that house. His brother certainly suffered sexual abuse.

19:45

And I think it's probably logical to think

19:47

that Kevin did as well. So

19:49

that's the environment that he grew up

19:51

with with sex and violence, right? And

19:54

they- His love map is a little

19:56

fucked up. Yeah, that's the toxic combination

19:58

that takes years. years

20:00

to recover from with a lot of treatment.

20:03

And we're not seeing that, right? And it's

20:05

interesting that you talked about your mom and

20:07

her friends and

20:10

their perspective. And when you look at all

20:12

of the comments that, you

20:14

know, show up after Peir's YouTube

20:16

interview with Kevin Spacey, overwhelmingly

20:19

they are very

20:21

forgiving. Why didn't we

20:23

know that he was acquitted? Of course he was.

20:25

He didn't do anything. You know, the fact that

20:27

he was acquitted in their minds

20:29

equates to him being completely innocent of

20:32

all these charges and allegations, which we

20:34

know is not true, which is why

20:36

I think it was really important for

20:38

us and is important for us now

20:40

to talk about this behavior because people need to

20:42

really be critical thinkers,

20:44

right? And to look

20:46

at that behavior, examine that behavior

20:48

that goes years, decades back, and

20:51

how consistent all of these allegations

20:54

are and the

20:56

behavior, the sexually violent behavior

20:59

that gets Kevin Spacey off. He's

21:02

not interested in plain vanilla

21:04

seduction. That's

21:06

not what gets him off. He loves the

21:08

power and control and the violence of that

21:12

immediate sexual gratification.

21:15

Right. And the fact is that

21:17

when the other person, you know,

21:19

we've talked about fight or flight

21:21

many, many times, but they're actually

21:23

adding another F to that, which is

21:26

freeze fight or flight. And

21:28

because a lot of these guys will

21:30

freeze because it's so unexpected. It's so

21:32

unwanted. It's so it's so shocking that

21:35

they just don't know how to respond,

21:37

especially to somebody. If

21:40

this was just a stranger on the street, well, they know exactly

21:43

how to respond. If this was

21:45

somebody that they didn't like or didn't look up to

21:47

or didn't want to be part of their lives or

21:49

their careers, then they would

21:51

respond differently. But the fact that it's

21:54

Kevin Spacey, the fact that it's their,

21:56

you know, mentor or idol or just a little bit of

22:00

just somebody who's so well respected,

22:02

that throws them and they just don't know.

22:04

It's like, this doesn't compute. I'm so

22:06

high off of the fact that I

22:08

even got to be in the same

22:10

room or scene with him, that we

22:12

got to interact, that we got to

22:14

walk off stage together. All of

22:17

that, all of that is just, it's

22:19

just a tremendous downfall. I

22:21

mean, as high as he

22:23

felt in that moment, the

22:25

fall was that much greater.

22:29

And it's so difficult, it's so difficult

22:31

to stand up and say at that

22:33

moment, something bad happened. But we

22:35

know that this guy went to one of the

22:38

other, I think she was

22:40

an actor. I'm not sure if she was an actor or she

22:42

was- Yeah, and she was another background actor. Right.

22:44

And she didn't go to her. She could, yeah,

22:46

he went to her, but she could see it.

22:48

She could see the weird vibe going on on

22:50

set. And she picked up the phone and called

22:52

SAG. So that tells you that that's a very

22:54

serious thing to do for a background

22:56

actor to pick up the phone because

22:59

then you set some stuff into motion. You know what

23:01

I mean? And it

23:04

just broke my heart. That broke my heart.

23:06

And then the young actor who was making

23:08

his stage debut on the West End at

23:10

the Old Big, I mean, that's such a

23:12

huge, huge accomplishment. And for him to be

23:14

violated that way in front

23:16

of the photographers to have Kevin

23:18

Spacey stick his hand where

23:21

the sun don't shine in front, I

23:23

mean, hiding in plain sight, but that

23:25

thrill that he must get out

23:28

of doing that to an actor is so

23:30

disgusting. But he's- We talk all

23:32

the time about signature, right? In serial

23:34

cases. And serial cases are two or

23:36

more victims over

23:39

a course of time, not in

23:41

the same incident. And when we

23:43

talk about sexual victimization and rapists,

23:45

that also applies. And

23:48

in this case, when we talk

23:50

about signature, these are, it's

23:52

an aspect of MO, which

23:54

is modus operandi or the method of

23:57

operation, the actions necessary to commit

23:59

the crime. ritual which is something

24:01

that isn't necessary to commit the crime

24:03

but is something that satisfies an

24:05

inner need and desire of the offender

24:08

and that's this is such a perfect example

24:10

of that he doesn't as you said he

24:12

could have access to any guy he wants

24:14

or woman he wants sexually

24:16

he because he's so famous but

24:18

that's not what gets him off as you said what's

24:21

important what's satisfying his need and desire

24:24

is this shock value this control

24:26

this this putting people in a

24:29

place where they are feeling

24:31

great he can crush them with

24:34

one instant one move one

24:37

thing and being you know

24:39

violating somebody in that way I mean

24:41

that it's such you know

24:43

it's such a demeaning thing and of

24:45

course it undermines everything

24:48

that they've just accomplished and

24:51

I think we've talked about this with other offenders how

24:54

I think it's in want to hear your your

24:56

feedback I think it's

24:58

indicative of his own self-loathing right

25:00

he is an incredibly miserable person

25:02

and to do that some

25:04

to somebody in that moment when

25:07

they aren't such a high the highlight of

25:09

their life especially with that actor at the

25:11

ole Vic to do something

25:13

that traumatizing to that person

25:15

really I think speaks to

25:17

how much Kevin Spacey really

25:19

hates himself well he

25:22

has been very successful now renarrating

25:24

this in the

25:26

eyes at least of the public I don't

25:28

think Hollywood is buying it but I don't

25:30

I think in the eyes of the public

25:32

you know he's really kind of acquitted himself

25:34

in their eyes and and this is he

25:36

he the one of the reasons why he's

25:38

he was and is such a brilliant actor

25:40

which is what he's doing he's acting all

25:42

of his crocodile tears is because

25:45

he's a hybrid character actor who

25:47

is very rare because he could

25:49

be a romantic lead on one

25:51

side and a character

25:53

actor on the other side which made

25:56

him extremely valuable in his career you

25:58

know which helped him really really

26:00

ascend. And that chameleon-like

26:02

quality is what he's doing right

26:05

now, you know. He's just using

26:07

all of his skills. At least that's what I could

26:10

see in as much of that

26:12

interview that I could stand to see before I had

26:14

to turn it on. And it's working, especially in the

26:16

court of public opinion, right? Right. Yeah,

26:18

it's just unfortunate. I hope people listen

26:20

to this, listen to our episodes about

26:23

Kevin Spacey and the documentary and

26:25

the Piers Morgan interview and understand

26:28

the victim behavior. Victims,

26:31

first of all, they did not

26:33

ask for this. They did not.

26:35

They wanted a career. They

26:37

wanted a career and they deserved a career.

26:40

They had skills and abilities that were

26:43

obviously there because they

26:45

were on their way in their careers,

26:48

but they also had something that attracted him.

26:51

And unfortunately, he

26:53

did not have the integrity

26:56

to keep his hands to himself. He

26:58

didn't have the integrity to not do

27:01

horrific things to them under the

27:04

guise of being a

27:06

little handsy, you know,

27:08

not really understanding boundaries, whatever he's

27:10

trying to claim now. But he

27:12

was classic. It was classic rationalization

27:15

of his behavior, minimization of his behavior

27:17

and projecting the blame on the victims.

27:19

And that's exactly what he did in

27:22

the Piers Morgan interview. But what he

27:24

didn't realize that he did is he

27:26

also leaked out a tremendous amount of

27:29

information about what turns him on, what

27:31

drives him. And the

27:33

fact that even though he says, oh, I had

27:35

to get help and I had to do this

27:37

all, I, I, I, me, me, me, me, you

27:39

know, it sounds a lot like the same exact

27:41

thing that he did. He said recently in a

27:43

video after he got caught assaulting

27:46

his girlfriend who was trying to run

27:48

away from him. You know, it was

27:50

all about him. And that's what Kevin

27:52

Spacey did. So

28:00

you know he's cooking or something

28:02

weird like I know you want

28:04

more of me You know it

28:06

was so filled with like double

28:09

entendre bullshit. It's like what

28:11

is this problem? He can't

28:13

let go of what he had obtained of

28:15

his status. You know can't well

28:18

But I think it's even more

28:20

indicative of what he can't let go

28:23

of in terms of his sexual desires

28:25

And how he feels like Accomplishing

28:28

them I mean he he has goals

28:31

and he wants to be with guys

28:33

who are you know very masculine and

28:35

and buff and and unattainable

28:38

for him and that Seems

28:40

to be what turns him on the most

28:43

yeah, and I think he wants to now Present

28:47

himself as somebody that's been reformed right he

28:49

said oh, I had to get help or

28:51

whatever, but what really? Contradicted

28:53

that to me that sense of

28:56

remorse was when he talked about

28:59

His encounter with his friend in high

29:01

school, and they were driving and he

29:03

grabbed his friend's crotch and And

29:06

Pierce asked him about that he goes well. You know maybe

29:08

I did maybe I maybe I grabbed his junk I don't

29:10

know it happened a long time ago like 17

29:14

years old do this you know we I've did a lot

29:16

of things I regret when I was 17 I

29:19

made a lot of mistakes when I was 17.

29:21

Yeah come on. Yeah,

29:23

so he still looks at it that

29:25

way So it's that's another thing. You

29:27

know he's leaking out information to us.

29:29

I haven't been reformed I still look

29:31

back on the things that I did

29:33

and Minimize them and project

29:36

the blame on to the person who I

29:38

victimized and and try to rationalize

29:40

the behavior well It's a 17 year old behavior

29:42

Well I never did that to any of my friends when

29:44

I was 17 I'm sure the two

29:46

of you didn't and I'm sure the vast majority

29:48

of this country never did that and If

29:51

they had done things like that when they were 17, and

29:53

they weren't scumbags

29:57

and assholes and sexual

30:00

harassers, then they would feel

30:02

bad about it. They would

30:04

genuinely regret the behavior, apologize

30:06

for the behavior, and

30:08

not do it again. But in his case,

30:11

we have decades of repetition of the

30:13

same kind of behavior that

30:16

just abrupt surprise

30:18

attack. The guy who

30:20

was in the office at the OVIC, I

30:22

think it was, where he met him the

30:24

first time and thought it was important that

30:26

he should say hi, and he

30:29

stood up and then came up with Kevin, just threw

30:31

him on top of a desk, and threw himself on

30:33

top of him. I mean, that, it's

30:35

just repeated over and over and over again,

30:37

and the corroboration, cross-corroboration

30:39

between these allegations is

30:41

just overwhelming. Yeah. I

30:44

think the truest thing that he said in the

30:46

documentary, Kevin Spacey said, was when

30:48

he was at Juilliard and he would do mask classes,

30:50

and he was holding up a mask. When you have

30:52

a mask, you disappear and you can be anybody you

30:55

want. And I think that's exactly, and

30:58

could be more true, that he was on the

31:00

mask. So he can be, well, actually

31:02

his true self really. He can get away with what

31:04

he wants to do. Right. Yeah.

31:07

Well, I just hope

31:09

that people continue to actually use

31:12

the brains and really scrutinize what

31:14

he's saying and what he did,

31:16

and then not victim blame, because

31:19

it's unfortunate that these people

31:22

really, and the other aspect of it is

31:24

of course, that yes, he was

31:26

acquitted in one case and

31:29

one civil case was withdrawn. But

31:31

that documentary had nine other men

31:34

who came forward, nine other victims

31:36

that have never been addressed. He's

31:38

never been called to task on

31:40

them and probably won't be because

31:43

of the statute of limitations. But

31:45

these people are credible and

31:47

everything I've seen, and you can tell

31:50

me, Kathy and Lisa, what you thought,

31:52

but everything I saw just

31:54

pointed to just

31:57

incredible integrity and

31:59

believability. on the part of those

32:01

men who came forward. Yes, especially

32:03

with just the consistency and

32:06

the experiences across the board,

32:08

across decades. It was

32:10

a clear pattern of behavior that

32:13

I think was undeniable. Yeah,

32:16

and these are people who didn't know each

32:18

other. They're all coming forward with such similar stories.

32:20

They're on different continents, talking about the same thing.

32:22

And the other thing are the women who

32:24

are speaking out. The crew member, that crew

32:26

member from House of Cards who was like, this

32:29

was known that he would just be

32:33

lying to people and you couldn't be alone

32:35

with him. And when you have the reputation

32:37

that you should not be the last person

32:39

to leave the bar with him, don't be

32:42

the last person in the bar with Kevin

32:44

Spacey. I mean, if that's your reputation, that's

32:46

a problem. That's an open secret.

32:49

Right, and having female assistants

32:51

and people that were in

32:53

his closest inner circle to

32:56

avoid having males that he would

32:59

victimize clearly was just a

33:01

backhanded attempt to avoid

33:03

situations, but they

33:05

clearly didn't protect the people that

33:08

he did have access to. Which

33:11

brings a question to my mind. You

33:13

guys are in this business. Lisa, you've

33:15

been a casting director for years, many

33:18

years. Do you see

33:20

the industry changing and wanting

33:22

to address this problem? Through

33:26

training, through just open

33:28

conversations about it, have

33:31

you seen these changes in the industry? Yes

33:35

and no. I mean, there is a lot of

33:37

lip service to it and there are trainings

33:39

that happen, as we've mentioned, but

33:41

the thing is there are just so many

33:43

different people who become producers, Jim, and the

33:46

producers are the ones that are on the

33:48

ground with the talent and they may not

33:50

be as sensitive. They may not have come,

33:52

they're not the studio executives who are risk

33:54

averse and who know all the human resource

33:58

definitions of what a boundary is. because

34:00

so many different people come from so many different

34:02

places to land on a set. And

34:05

there's still a good old, I don't want

34:07

to say good old boy because women certainly participate

34:09

in this too. But

34:12

I still think that we need more of a

34:14

shift. I mean, I'm seeing much more of a

34:16

shift in academia. I met adjunct

34:19

at like five different major universities and I'm

34:21

constantly having to go through central harassment training,

34:23

which is not a bad thing, but it's

34:25

like, again, okay.

34:28

So it's in certain communities,

34:30

it's out there, and hopefully

34:32

actors are becoming more, have

34:35

more agency to whistle blow and

34:37

to say things. And certainly with

34:40

the presence of intimacy coordinators, there's

34:42

just much, on the

34:44

actor side, I think hopefully there seems to

34:46

be more understanding of your own

34:48

power, but it's,

34:50

I don't know, I'm not sure how

34:53

effective me to and has been or times up. There's

34:58

still a lot of problems. All right. Well,

35:00

hopefully it's moving in the right direction and

35:02

the more people know and the more people

35:04

they educate themselves, the more people that are

35:06

going to be out there to help protect

35:09

the vulnerable people in these

35:11

situations. Well, Lisa, thank you

35:13

so much for coming back and

35:15

giving us your insights and expertise.

35:17

And Kathy, it's always great to

35:20

see you and to hear your insights

35:22

as well. This has

35:24

been a really important series about

35:26

Kevin Spacey and the allegations against

35:28

him and

35:30

the very brave people who have come

35:33

forward. And that's

35:35

a difficult thing to do, especially in

35:37

this industry, because image is everything. And

35:40

it can really hurt, not

35:43

help your career to come forward

35:45

to disclose things like this. Well,

35:48

until next time, thank you everybody

35:50

for listening to Real Crime Profile,

35:52

signing off.