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business. A warning,
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this episode contains discussion of sexual
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0:27
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rosettastone.com/NPR. Joining
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me today is my co-host, Glenn Weldon.
2:44
Hi, Glenn. Hey, Linda. It's
2:46
always good to be here together in
2:48
Oscar season. So the
2:51
Oscars documentary category, I think,
2:53
has a reputation of
2:55
always being really heavy,
2:57
really sad, but that's actually not
3:00
always true. Summer of Soul won
3:02
in this category, 20 feet
3:04
from stardom won in this category, Free
3:06
Solo won. So there really
3:08
are often some more upbeat films that are nominated,
3:11
and that is all as sort of wind up
3:13
to say, this year, I'm not going to lie,
3:15
they are all pretty heavy, but
3:18
I found them all really
3:20
gripping to watch and not
3:22
kind of dutifully, but really for
3:25
what strong films they are. So
3:27
I want to jump right in.
3:29
First up is Bobby Wine, The
3:32
People's President. It's directed by Christopher
3:34
Sharp and Moses Boao, and it
3:36
tells the story of Bobby Wine,
3:39
a popular musician in Uganda who
3:41
was elected to a parliamentary seat
3:43
and ultimately ran against the longtime
3:45
president, tried to unite opposition groups
3:48
to dislodge him from power. This
3:51
is a film that is streaming on Disney
3:53
Plus and Hulu. We are really in the
3:55
era of these things kind of being available,
3:57
at least a lot of them the
4:00
Oscars happen. What did you think of this one? Well,
4:03
my notes here say heartbreaking, but
4:05
that doesn't say anything because that word
4:07
appears in my notes for always
4:09
films. This is the story of a
4:11
man who suffered so greatly for
4:13
coming as close as anyone has to
4:16
ending a really brutal decades long authoritarian
4:18
regime. It ends up
4:20
being a pretty chilling portrait of
4:22
how the tools of the state
4:24
can and in fact are used
4:27
to prevent change from happening. Some
4:30
would say chilling portrait, somebody else might say handy
4:32
how to guide. And for that reason, it
4:34
doesn't feel like it might've felt if you
4:36
watch this 10, 15 years ago, because this
4:39
is a National Geographic film. So it might
4:41
feel like cultural anthropology. Look at how those
4:43
systems, those institutions over there aren't
4:45
sufficient. No, there is a tremendous urgency
4:48
and immediacy and really depressing quality of
4:50
this film because these filmmakers
4:53
are on hand as things literally explode
4:55
as people get shot. So
4:57
you don't come away from this with a
4:59
view of the world that's particularly heartening and
5:01
also not for nothing. I
5:03
worry that this is going to be to this
5:05
year what Navalny was last year,
5:07
which is a portrait of a very brave activist
5:10
who should keep his head on a swivel. Yeah.
5:12
I appreciated very much the fact and maybe this
5:15
is my perspective as much as anything else.
5:17
But like you said, if
5:19
you are one of the many people around the world
5:21
who is worrying about the state of your own democracy
5:25
and what it potentially looks like when officially
5:27
you have one, but in practice you don't,
5:30
it looks like this. Not just
5:32
the fact that nobody has any confidence in the
5:35
voting and the ballot counting, but also the imprisoning
5:37
of activists
5:39
and the manipulation
5:41
of other parts of government by whoever
5:43
the leader happens to be. So,
5:46
you know, it is a very depressing film.
5:48
At the same time, I also
5:51
really enjoyed this portrait of him.
5:53
He's very charismatic, not surprising. He's
5:55
a musician. I like
5:58
the fact that this... is
6:00
a portrait of kind of accepting
6:02
very earnest protest music, which I
6:04
think is something that a lot
6:07
of people struggle with. If
6:09
you actually were to put out a song that was about,
6:11
you know, we are fighting for freedom as he does,
6:14
that people would find it kind of corny and
6:16
cheesy. And in this film, it's a
6:18
really effective piece of protest
6:20
music. Galvanizing, yeah. We are fighting
6:22
for freedom. What you
6:24
do, baby? I'm on my move. We
6:27
are fighting for freedom. And
6:30
I also really think this
6:32
is an example of how you show the
6:34
partner of a central
6:36
figure in a documentary and give
6:40
them kind of respect because his wife,
6:42
whose name is Barbie, so it's Bobby
6:44
and Barbie, she is
6:46
such an interesting person to me
6:48
because their relationship is obviously really
6:50
strong and very loving, but nobody
6:52
shies away from the fact that she has
6:55
a big part to play in this. And
6:57
it wasn't necessarily something she chose in the same
6:59
way that he did. I was a big fan
7:01
of this one. And when I think about this
7:03
movie, I find myself thinking like, oh, yeah, you
7:05
know, maybe this is the one that ought to
7:07
win. So that's where I come down. I felt that
7:09
way about each one of them in turn. I was just going
7:12
to say that's kind of going to be my bit here. I think
7:14
when I get to the end of all these, it's going to be,
7:16
yeah, this is the one that I think ought to win. So
7:19
that's Bobby Wine, the People's President,
7:21
which is streaming on Disney Plus
7:23
and Hulu. Next up
7:25
is The Eternal Memory, which
7:27
is the story of Chilean
7:29
journalist Augusto Góngora and
7:31
his wife, Paulie, and their relationship
7:33
in the years after he was
7:36
diagnosed with Alzheimer's. There
7:38
aren't interviews in this movie. It's
7:40
just footage of them that
7:42
the director, Maita Alberti, collected
7:45
over this period of years. And Alberti,
7:47
by the way, directed the Mole Agent,
7:49
which was nominated in this category a
7:51
few years ago. The Eternal Memory
7:53
is streaming on Paramount Plus. Well,
7:58
Glenn. A tough
8:00
watch, yes? A tough watch, yeah. I mean,
8:02
we talked about this. Both of us have
8:04
experience with this disease in our
8:06
families, and so I've had one
8:09
experience to hollow me out for enough for a
8:11
lifetime, so, you know, I wasn't looking for another.
8:13
And also, you know, for me anyway, there have
8:15
been plenty of Oscar docs and shorts, the traffic,
8:17
and a kind of cheery uplift imposing this,
8:19
you know, you take a messy human life and
8:22
you try to impose a narrative on it, and you try
8:24
to give it an ending that people can walk
8:26
out of the theater feeling good about. That always rubs me the
8:28
wrong way. So for many reasons, this was the last one I
8:30
watched because I just wasn't ready for it. It was the one
8:32
that I found most charming,
8:35
heartbreaking, yeah, but also heartwarming. This
8:37
couple is so charismatic and warm.
8:39
This, the love between them is
8:41
palpable. There's a tenderness there. There
8:43
is an emotional availability
8:46
of that. It wasn't part of
8:48
my experience with this disease. I mean, and
8:51
that affected how I watched it because about halfway in,
8:53
I was like, people with this disease have good and
8:55
bad days, and all we're seeing are the good days.
8:57
That's not true to the experience. And then about halfway
8:59
through the bad days start happening. And
9:02
they were very familiar just to
9:04
see her, how determined she
9:07
is, how, you know, I don't want
9:09
to call it cheerfulness or positivity, because that really
9:11
diminishes it. This is something bigger. This is like
9:13
a selflessness that is so,
9:15
I don't know, it borders on the divine.
9:17
It is just, you wonder how
9:20
she can keep going. And
9:23
then the film captures these moments that I
9:25
know very well of just lucidity and connection. And
9:27
there's this one moment where he fangs her
9:29
and it's like, Oh, well, there,
9:31
that's another, he just bought himself another
9:33
what month? Yeah. Like there,
9:35
that's how you keep going. And in fact,
9:37
there's one moment where he is in one
9:39
of those better days or moments where he's
9:42
more lucid. And she's telling
9:44
him how difficult it's been.
9:46
And she's telling him, you haven't remembered
9:48
me all day. You
9:50
haven't remembered me. You haven't recognized me.
9:52
And she's crying. And
9:54
he's comforting her just like any
9:57
spouse of any person would. comfort
10:00
them in a difficult moment. And
10:03
I also saved it for last year. My
10:05
experience is not specifically with Alzheimer's. It's
10:07
more with dementia and changes over
10:09
time. But I
10:12
think if you've ever been through that, like you said, it's
10:14
just there are these moments where you're like, I
10:17
agree with you, her ability to find
10:19
ways through it, particularly in those early scenes
10:21
where he, you know, he's having more, more
10:23
of the good days. But she
10:25
will tell him like, what would you like to
10:27
hear about? And he'll say something about us. And
10:29
she'll tell him a story that
10:31
he doesn't remember. Yeah. And
10:33
he reacts with delight to these stories
10:36
of his life that he doesn't remember.
10:38
I also saved this one for last.
10:40
It's not easy. But it's
10:42
not a wallow. Yeah. And it's realistic. Because
10:44
like you said, this is not one
10:46
you can set up for the will there suddenly be
10:48
an improvement in his condition
10:50
or something like that? Because again, like you
10:52
don't impose a narrative here. There's only one narrative.
10:55
This story can only end one way as the
10:57
disease progresses. Let me ask you
10:59
something. There is an attempt on the filmmakers
11:01
part to widen out and find echoes
11:04
of this experience in what I guess
11:06
you'd call the Chilean national identity, you
11:08
know, this refusal to acknowledge the fact
11:10
that over 1000 people disappeared during
11:12
the Pinochet regime. And I see exactly why they
11:14
tried to do that. He was a journalist who
11:16
covered that regime. But
11:18
I don't I thought those moments in the film
11:20
were not clumsy, exactly, because nothing about this
11:23
film is clumsy, but inessential, like an add
11:25
on because this film has a startling intimacy.
11:27
And every time we started to widen away
11:29
from that, I felt like the filmmakers were
11:31
not understanding how precious this thing they were
11:33
focused on was. I agree with you that
11:35
it was not the most engaging part of the film
11:37
for me, which is always when you're with the two
11:40
of them together. But I do
11:42
think that they are also trying to tell
11:44
you a broader story of his vibrancy
11:47
and his accomplishments. And
11:49
what this film is at
11:51
its best when it is the two of them
11:54
talking to each other. And for those of you who are listening,
11:56
you know, Glenn and I aren't always going to Come
11:58
together and tell you that something isn't A. There anything we
12:00
get a full less. Flurries but term but
12:02
it is. He really is. so
12:04
that the eternal memory and it's
12:07
streaming on Paramount. Plus Next up,
12:09
we have four daughters. It's streaming
12:11
now on Netflix and miss. It
12:13
is probably the most formally experimental
12:15
of these films. The Director of
12:17
Health or Ban Honey at tells
12:19
the story of Offer, a Tunisian
12:22
woman who tells us early on
12:24
that she had four daughters but
12:26
two of them are gone To
12:28
them are still with her. but
12:30
the device. that the director use
12:32
as as as she films reenactments
12:35
of important moments in their story,
12:37
using to actresses to play the
12:39
missing older. Daughter's law the two younger daughter
12:42
to play. Themselves There's also an actress
12:44
who plays all fi in some
12:46
scenes although sometimes awful place herself.
12:48
So the real documentary subjects hobbies,
12:50
very interesting interactions with the women
12:52
who are playing them as you
12:55
watch what kind of a it
12:57
starts to sound so matter and
12:59
it's not as weird as it
13:01
sounds. But a is almost a
13:03
making of documentary about making these
13:05
reenactments and I promise you if
13:07
you sit down and watch it,
13:10
it's less awkward. Didn't send I'm
13:12
making. A sound. The agree. Sir. Absolutely. And
13:14
but it is reenactment, right? And if I
13:16
I grew up at a time when reenactment
13:18
meant unsolved mystery method midseason. As and so
13:20
I went in with my arms crossed. buds
13:23
few. you nailed it. The way it handled
13:25
when the subjects interact with the actress who
13:27
are portraying them or between the siblings, giving
13:29
them pointers, commenting on how a laker a
13:32
muddle like they are from the Per Prisoner
13:34
Pretend that it's fascinating armed affects. The two
13:36
young daughters, as you mentioned, are playing themselves.
13:38
So of course it didn't occur to me
13:40
until I saw it. but many scenes will
13:43
be com. You know if you react to
13:45
be seemed is going to become be trying to
13:47
reenact but the take place in therapy and the
13:49
diplomats I have read some reviews that try to
13:51
make the case of this never really answers the
13:54
question of why the two older daughters became radicalized
13:56
or as if it ever could write as if
13:58
like there's one explanation that on why the everything.
14:01
What? I think his movie is really about
14:03
is not the why of radicalization, but the
14:05
sheer heavy fact of it, What it does
14:07
to families, friends, and then the performance aspect
14:10
as still another layer like one ofer he's
14:12
describing and then subsequently reenacting. You know how
14:14
an exchange between her and her husband went
14:17
well with just heard here? Now her husband's
14:19
on around. So how the hell do we
14:21
know that she's telling us the truth? And
14:23
does it matter if she's telling us the
14:26
truth or what really matters is that it's
14:28
important to her to assert that that's how
14:30
it went. Down, it is so messy I
14:32
like to come steers into that messing us
14:34
as if trying to pretend it doesn't exist.
14:37
That's how you use reenactment, I think. Yeah,
14:39
I think it's such an interesting way to
14:41
tell the story ends. One of the things
14:43
that I really like about it also is
14:45
that many begin the so me kind of
14:47
feel like maybe. You're going to see
14:49
a story as noble author and
14:51
the terrible losses that she suffered.
14:53
Because to the forgot our has sort of banished
14:55
from her life. You. Don't
14:57
get that. I. It is nothing here.
14:59
Also describe things about her own parenting.
15:02
And her experiences with her daughters and you
15:04
started L. A Now wait a
15:06
minute. You know nobody is blaming her
15:08
for the ultimate fate of the family,
15:11
but at the same time. It's
15:13
like wait a minute. You. Know her
15:15
own behavior, Towards. Her
15:18
daughter's sometimes seems very
15:20
regrettable. Bordering. On
15:22
abuses and her two daughters
15:24
who are. Are in the film.
15:27
Feel very sorry to tell the
15:29
truth about their experiences with their
15:31
mom which are not always entirely
15:33
Pause it is so you're not
15:36
getting a story of. Purely.
15:38
Alpha As a person suffering, you're
15:41
also seeing the complexity of her
15:43
story and the complexity of her
15:45
least or relationship with the daughter's
15:47
But there are these moments where.
15:50
You. See. The. Two
15:52
daughters and the to actresses
15:54
and all far and you
15:57
realize how heavy that feeling
15:59
all of them for their
16:01
to be again. This.
16:03
Woman and the four daughters. In
16:06
L R, I just think this is
16:08
completely fascinating flagrant. All right. So that
16:10
is four daughters and it's streaming on
16:12
Netflix. Up next to Kill a Tiger
16:14
To Kill A Tiger is about sexual
16:17
assault, so be aware of that. It
16:19
was directed by Nice Up a Hoosier
16:21
and it follows a farmer named Run
16:23
Eat who lives in a village in
16:25
India and is trying to get justice
16:28
for his daughter who was sexually assaulted
16:30
by three men when she was thirteen.
16:33
He comes under a tremendous amount of
16:35
pressure from community leaders from his neighbors
16:37
to compromise as they put it and
16:39
not insist on pursuing a case of
16:41
the police. But he also has a
16:43
group of activists and attorneys who are
16:45
supporting him working with him to see
16:47
that the perpetrators are punished. It is
16:49
worth noting I think that there has
16:51
been some pushback about this film for
16:54
a few reasons. The film maker is
16:56
based in Canada, which means it's a
16:58
sort. Of outsider perspective on this very
17:00
small. Community in India and also you
17:02
do see runs his daughter who
17:04
was a minor when the interviews with
17:06
her or filmed and when these
17:08
events were happening. She is over eighteen
17:11
now She made the decision after. She
17:13
turned eighteen to go ahead with appearing.
17:15
In the cell. But I think those are
17:17
all concerns that are good to keep in
17:20
mind of a killer tiger. Is streaming starting
17:22
tomorrow on Netflix. Glenn What you think of
17:24
this one? I'm well, I understand the
17:26
cameo. It's It's not as if the
17:28
film is trying to pretend like it
17:30
is an insider's perspective frame. We see
17:32
the camera go into the village. We
17:34
see how everyone in the village regards
17:36
the camera warily. We see that they've
17:39
got their guard up. We see that
17:41
in the beginning they say the things
17:43
to the camera that they think the
17:45
camera wants to hear. But the thing
17:47
is you spend enough time with people
17:49
and they will start to say the
17:51
things that they feel. They will demonstrate
17:53
the thesis of the film, which is.
17:55
that there are systems in place here
17:57
that keep things like this happening and
17:59
these systems are not imposed from above.
18:01
They are systems that everyone buys into.
18:04
And I admire the way that when the
18:06
making of the documentary begins to
18:08
affect the events it's seeking to capture, when
18:11
the villagers start to perceive how they're gonna
18:13
keep trading, they're not idiots. They're gonna, they
18:15
understand what this eye
18:17
on their village is going
18:19
to bring about if it gets out in
18:21
the world. They challenge the documentarians. And
18:24
in many documentaries, it might end there, but
18:26
because the hostility of the filmmakers have
18:28
stirred up is going to affect the case because
18:30
it means it can be harder for witness to
18:32
step forward, the filmmakers
18:34
go further and we see them telling
18:37
the activists and the legal team that
18:39
this happened in the village and
18:42
they make it part of the story, right?
18:44
And the legal team says, you just made
18:46
our jobs much, much harder. And that's part
18:48
of the documentary. It strikes me as the
18:51
most ethical transparent way to
18:53
make a very complicated film. Right, I agree with
18:56
that. And I think there are
18:58
questions here about that kind of outsider
19:01
or exoticized kind of lens on a
19:03
story like this that I would not
19:05
presume to
19:08
pass judgment on. But I do think
19:10
that for what it is, as we
19:12
said about Bobby Wine, I think, this
19:14
doesn't make me think like, oh,
19:17
look at this. Thank goodness this
19:19
could never happen anywhere that I
19:21
live. Because if you've ever heard
19:23
how people will speak to survivors
19:25
of sexual violence about what
19:28
you're gonna do to the reputation
19:30
and life of the person who
19:32
committed the offense, you
19:34
know that this happens in many places. And that
19:36
there are just as many people who worry about
19:38
the reputation of a town or a school
19:40
or a college as there
19:43
are who worry about the reputation of
19:45
a village or any other
19:47
kind of community. You
19:49
never can control how people receive something.
19:51
So there is always a danger of
19:53
it being received as kind of, well,
19:56
look at this. Look how unfortunately,
19:58
you know, behind. The times
20:00
this community is, I didn't feel
20:02
that way about it. I felt like you could see a
20:05
lot of familiar elements from sexual
20:08
assault cases that I have followed much closer
20:10
to home. It is a gripping
20:13
story. And that's to
20:15
Kill a Tiger and it's coming to
20:18
Netflix starting tomorrow. The final
20:21
film on our list is 20 Days
20:23
in Marjubal. It's assembled
20:25
from footage that was shot
20:27
by a team of AP
20:29
journalists led by Mstislav Chernov
20:31
during the Russian invasion of
20:33
Ukraine. It's a joint project
20:35
of the AP and front line, good old
20:37
front line. And
20:40
the focus is really on hospitals and attempts
20:42
to treat the injured. So you see a
20:44
lot of footage of ambulances and doctors and
20:47
also just ordinary people trying to
20:49
survive this horrible situation. There
20:52
were not a lot of journalists, particularly international
20:54
journalists who were able to remain
20:56
in operation in Marjubal as all
20:59
this was going on. So this is footage that was
21:02
widely used by news organizations.
21:05
Seeing it in this form makes for a really
21:08
harrowing hour and a half or so.
21:10
What did you think? Yeah, I mean, this is, I
21:12
mean, let's not sugarcoat it. This is hell on earth.
21:15
This is a grim and unrelenting film that,
21:18
like you mentioned with To Kill a Tiger,
21:20
in the beginning, before
21:23
the invasion really starts happening, there's this
21:25
shot of an empty street at night
21:27
with the traffic lights sort of flashing
21:30
orange. And you're thinking, oh, this
21:32
is a haunting image. And then things get much,
21:35
much worse. And the narration, I
21:38
think importantly, does not pretend towards
21:40
some kind of disingenuous
21:43
J school notion of objectivity. It
21:46
is coming out and it's reminding you, okay, these bodies
21:48
that you're seeing right now that we're throwing in this
21:50
mass grave. These are the kids that
21:52
we filmed playing soccer three days ago.
21:56
The citizens make direct appeals to the camera.
21:59
It shows you that you can... the
22:01
document in event I'm not cut off
22:03
a human. Experience and you
22:05
can document and yvette with empathy and
22:07
with horror and with fear and with
22:09
helplessness and with anger. Moments that lights
22:11
in any other context in the world
22:13
would provide you a glimpse of hope.
22:15
Like the birth of a child. We
22:17
see the birth of a child here
22:19
and all you're watching that you just
22:21
filled with dread cause what's gonna happen
22:23
to that kid and also the kind
22:25
of a stealth subject of this film
22:27
is how all this kids packaged right.
22:29
We see the raw chaos. Then we
22:31
get a video package on scene and
22:33
a two minute video. Package on Cnn and
22:35
then we also see of course with russian media
22:37
does with it which is accusing everybody of being
22:39
actors. And with all that.
22:42
It. Feels so glib and vacuous to talk
22:44
about it's chances to win an Oscar right?
22:46
Biceps? It's what it's gonna get. an oscar
22:48
know? Yeah, I think it's going to win
22:51
in a walk. And I'm glad for
22:53
that because I think more people will see it in
22:55
and this needs to be seeing. Yeah, I
22:57
agree with you and I think
22:59
what you put your finger on
23:01
about those sequences were you'll see.
23:04
Generally. A long sequence following
23:06
a particular patient, for example. and
23:08
then you will see the news
23:10
package that keeps a little tiny
23:13
snippet of that's and uses it
23:15
as no part of explaining the
23:17
story. and there's nothing inherently wrong
23:19
with that. I don't think that's
23:22
kind of what their job as,
23:24
but you do realize how much
23:26
is because you accept that clip
23:29
of that Cnn. Package or whenever
23:31
the Bbc or however this. And you
23:33
just think oh but the for this
23:35
there with that whole like this you
23:37
know what the family with like when
23:39
the person coming in and what happened
23:41
on the person was brought in and
23:43
what happened to the workers who brought
23:45
the person and and i think having
23:47
that context and also having that kind
23:49
of his background of. Like. odd
23:51
moments of normal see that it's
23:53
not normalcy but it's like there's
23:55
a sort of everybody trying to
23:57
get their phones to charge at
23:59
one point of as think that
24:01
broader context that isn't exclusively focused
24:03
on the most horrible moment
24:06
in any sequence, that
24:08
like background, I think is
24:10
really helpful in understanding
24:13
this on a more, when
24:16
I say on a more human level,
24:18
it sounds terrible, but that's kind of
24:20
what I mean. And I will also
24:22
say, as with Olfa in Four Daughters,
24:24
I really appreciated the fact that the
24:27
story of this is not exclusively, everybody
24:29
in this city was heroic as this
24:31
was happening. You know, emergency situations
24:33
tend to bring out the person
24:36
that you already are. So
24:38
if you're generous, you become more generous.
24:40
If you're dishonest, you become more dishonest.
24:43
It's really powerful. And again, I think
24:45
the editing and the choices
24:47
that they make in terms of the filmmaking,
24:49
first of all, I can't imagine how they
24:51
took the amount of footage they must have
24:54
had, which was really
24:56
rare and in demand footage and
24:59
got it down to an hour and a
25:01
half. I just think that's kind of shocking
25:03
and quite an accomplishment. So again, that is
25:05
20 days in Marjubal, which is streaming on
25:08
PBS. And you can also find it on
25:10
the frontline YouTube channel. I suspect
25:12
this one's gonna win. I feel like this
25:14
one's gonna win. Yeah, but me too.
25:16
There is not a single film on
25:18
this list, where if it wins, I'm
25:21
gonna go, Okay, no matter
25:23
what it is, I can't wait to
25:25
see the winning
25:28
like team talk about it. They are tough
25:30
to watch. But please
25:32
believe us when we say they are well
25:34
worth watching anyway, man, I'm glad I saw each and every
25:36
one of these films. Yeah, absolutely. We
25:39
want to know what you think about
25:41
this year's Oscar nominees for documentary feature
25:43
film, find us at facebook.com/pch. That brings
25:45
us to the end of our show.
25:48
Glenn, thank you so much for going
25:51
for the docs this year and
25:53
for being here. Thank you. This
25:55
episode is produced by Liz Messker and
25:57
edited by Mike Cassis, our supervising producer.
26:00
is Jessica Reedy, and Hello Come In
26:02
provides R&B music. Thanks for listening to
26:04
Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm
26:07
Linda Holmes, and we'll see you all tomorrow.
26:15
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