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This

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is an a b c podcast

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Hello, this is David Rutledge. This is

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the Philosopher's Zone and this week,

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we're getting into a about philosophy

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and the terrible bind

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that we find ourselves ourselves in we pursue with

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increasing trepidation into what we now

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calling the anthropocene very

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, put the reason that we're cooking

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the planet and undermining the foundations

0:25

of human civilization comes down

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to modernity modernity

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and extracting and generally treating

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the natural world as a resource

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to serve our ends is not a form of

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behavior that we can just think ourselves

0:38

out of its behavior that is hardwired

0:41

into the logic of modernity which

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means it's hardwired into our philip understanding

0:45

as modern as and we're going

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be unpacking all of this with a little help

0:50

from georg wilhelm friedrich

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hegel and if you're wondering

0:54

what on earth and eighteenth century german

0:56

idealist might have to say about the practical

0:58

problems facing twenty first century

1:00

humankind then we'll stay

1:02

with us because it turns out but hague old is

1:05

a surprisingly accurate diagnostician

1:07

of our diagnostician predicament as

1:09

worry about to hear the great revolution

1:11

of the european enlightenment as brought

1:14

to us by the work of such thing as as

1:16

day costs and cut was

1:18

to conceive of human history is

1:20

something that we ourselves could

1:22

that and control but that notion

1:24

of freedom came at a cost because it

1:27

relied on a certain on tethering

1:29

the idea of human culture from nature

1:31

and today we're leaving old to precariously

1:34

with the results of that on tethering well

1:37

my guess this week sees hey go

1:39

as providing some fascinating and

1:41

perhaps useful insight into how

1:43

it all went wrong simon lumsden

1:45

is an associate professor associate professor

1:47

at the university of new south wales

1:51

the kind of standard model of thinking about

1:53

freedom which takes place in

1:55

the pre modern conception would

1:57

be to think of human history is

1:59

largely strained by god

2:01

by tradition i said

2:04

of natural forces and that represents

2:06

the kind of limit by which humans

2:08

are able to progress some form

2:10

and it's largely structured by these external

2:12

forces know what

2:14

de cod does and

2:17

he in this is continuous other figures like like

2:19

bacon he said he'd

2:21

places the capacity for us to

2:23

determine our souls in our own hands

2:25

raised becomes basis by which were

2:27

able to transform ourselves

2:30

determine our souls and look to the future

2:33

now that when sit move on and history

2:35

philosophy and sit and advancement

2:37

of that notion the constant accounts constant

2:40

accounts many things from the cancellation

2:42

the you are you also transforms

2:45

it because he won the things that how

2:48

does and what really gets the i do

2:50

the forces history moving forward that he posits

2:52

and and towards which human beings and

2:54

amy and that aim

2:56

is the cosmopolitan ideal hans

2:59

we're in the position to able to control

3:02

the direction of human history if we understand

3:05

where we're going in his case if we can reflect

3:07

upon irrationality understand

3:09

, to be rational see

3:11

the were self determining then

3:13

we can work out that wine which histories progressing

3:16

his sats that's the kind defenses

3:18

which had caused the conflict of human history are

3:20

able to eradicated and wind up this

3:22

cosmopolitan ideal and once we

3:24

can sort wrestling determine where that's going

3:27

then we can buy our own and posit

3:29

that in then move

3:32

towards it now heigl takes a very different

3:34

colored he's not concerned with positing and and

3:36

towards history is i am launch

3:39

who the heck alien view of history

3:41

is some degree retrospect

3:43

is it's understanding

3:46

the hidden conditions

3:48

and tensions by which with landed

3:50

into position that were in in the prison and

3:53

so then in his case

3:55

what he is to send understand we're

3:57

specifically concerned with saucers history

4:00

it's really understanding why

4:02

how is the with come to understand

4:04

ourselves as self producing and

4:06

says determining what's the set of

4:08

conditions by which we know that to be the case

4:11

and and how that the

4:12

world news forward in time

4:15

and there's , subset of institutional

4:17

conditions the does that we can talk about than minute

4:20

and but another different so

4:22

here is if i've read it correctly is

4:24

that correctly is progress on

4:27

the cartesian model is sort of open

4:29

ended he pauses this sort of infinite

4:31

capacity for self transformation whereas

4:34

for hey go the limit right

4:37

think the way you described it that's

4:39

really the ideal of what magenta the itself

4:42

would say itself so if if you take that

4:44

your description as being i'll open ended

4:46

and has a decent capacity for so transformation

4:49

that's , the can't stand it view of

4:52

the jonesy in a sign right i mean think

4:54

about what's going on and maternity maternity

4:56

maternity largely emerges in this

4:58

period with bacon and

5:00

day caught a rising and and what

5:02

what's the prompting that this is associated

5:05

earlier that this constraints on

5:07

human freedom and human progress and

5:09

that's been a god or nature or something

5:11

or and in way that

5:13

sort of marks a human vulnerability that was

5:15

vulnerable to something external sources an

5:17

external authority which is constraining

5:20

us how the marker of maternity

5:23

is really that were in the position

5:25

in western maternity to be able

5:27

to always meet those challenges

5:30

is kind of those vulnerabilities are things that never

5:32

become absolute and sent over against and why

5:34

that is a the were a permanent limit

5:37

so can always make those challenges and

5:39

transform nest in sense maternity

5:41

self confidence haunted this

5:43

nothing that's really going to restrict

5:45

it's development and that i think

5:47

marks it in any way and and

5:50

and or advertise it still massive as

5:52

the kind of emblematic feature of it in the presence

5:54

but not for hey government heigl has

5:57

this idea of second nature

5:59

which often really

6:00

interesting and this is where people

6:02

that to sort of a potential for decline

6:04

and decay within maternity

6:07

itself the didn't tell me about that so

6:09

yeah so i guess case

6:11

he accepts the basic view modernity

6:13

that was soft determining that was so producing

6:15

thinks that's the kind of

6:18

historical market the get it's a human

6:20

achievement that really developed from know

6:22

athens that runs through to the modern

6:24

period and would become self conscious of that

6:27

in the modern period the

6:29

same time what animates

6:32

his thought is really the way in which of

6:34

shape of loss falls apart

6:36

so doesn't have this conception of

6:40

an unending maternity by which were able

6:42

to kind of instantly and always transform ourselves

6:44

smithers and seemingly he's

6:47

, i'm concerned with the wind which

6:49

all forms of last mates as of were there

6:51

that limits how they are able

6:53

to and and that becomes basis for the transformation

6:56

transformation in the case of kind of sand line with you

6:58

that the the seat of that transformation is

7:00

really in rational reflection on

7:02

it's our capacity to

7:05

see the limits of no more value of

7:07

value set of concepts which we take muslim

7:09

is gonna pass me the russian reflects and

7:11

to overcome them in some form

7:13

of we might produce a set of institutional relations

7:16

that the radical incident i

7:18

got a much more embodied few of

7:21

the things think what he rejects

7:23

in county in and they stand enlightenment

7:25

view of progress

7:28

this is embodied character of it

7:31

and in his case what he wants to say

7:33

is that all of our concepts

7:35

and principles that animated

7:38

a see what he recalled said with life just was just a

7:40

culture their own lives

7:42

favour materiality to them on

7:45

end the way which he sort

7:47

of thinks of human history is that this is sort of concept

7:49

that starts from merged something like self determination

7:51

which really gets going we stopped be self conscious

7:53

of in seventeenth century over

7:56

course of next couple hundred years it becomes

7:59

full of lies it in the aftermath of the french

8:01

revolution it develops institutions

8:04

that are more or less adequate to that which would

8:06

which dynamic and so transforming that

8:09

all of in a good case all of these

8:12

forms of life because the rolling

8:14

body they all as

8:16

it were have a connection to have

8:18

sort of natural round which he describes

8:20

as second nature a thing as distinct

8:22

is about that is that the notion

8:24

second nature which is a have a

8:26

nice and has long history in history philosophy it's

8:28

a sort of paradoxical nice

8:32

because it's as a was something

8:34

that we humans will we

8:36

created then it becomes

8:39

something embodied and becomes as were

8:41

almost as hard wired in us as

8:44

who's your first nature so

8:46

, that means that and this is the kind

8:48

classic ones that isn't as inhabits

8:51

to habits is the kind of san heigl would think that

8:53

customs the customs are really

8:55

just habits just of culture

8:59

the customs are embodied the the way

9:01

we live our culture

9:03

in in olive l material culture

9:06

and the problem with all

9:08

of these habits

9:10

and customs is because the have sort of causing

9:12

naturalistic function lemmings

9:14

extraordinarily resistance to change

9:17

they become embodied and they want to perpetuate

9:19

themselves and their just repeat themselves like

9:21

habits do and

9:24

what happens in angles case is that

9:27

this is an inherent conflict that

9:29

we experience which is that we

9:31

perpetuate customs

9:33

and culture because they're as

9:36

a worthy material forms of

9:38

practice which we just reproduce again

9:40

and again to sort of as it were bodily

9:42

an ssd is part

9:44

the same time have this fresh reflective aspect

9:46

of us that he doesn't want to give up with the enlightenment

9:49

gives us right and

9:51

then allows us to sort of recognizes

9:53

them onto something adequate about these practices

9:58

norms habits them

10:00

which are embodied and

10:02

at some point is rough reflects

10:04

his on the comes in this is something inadequate

10:06

about those material practices

10:09

which we know aren't fit for purpose and

10:12

even think about that in the in kind of

10:14

modern context of ecological

10:16

crisis example we can say

10:18

that the sensitive material

10:21

practices the were overly familiar with

10:23

consumer society we just

10:25

keep buying stuff and reproducing stuff

10:27

and we think that this is ton of some sort of

10:29

steam and satisfaction and

10:31

is all of these investments political

10:34

material economic coercion

10:36

wanting us to keep doing it but at same

10:38

time it's kind of wrote rational reflective level

10:40

that knows that is something problematic

10:43

about that that that form of practice

10:45

is not fit the age the we live

10:47

in in the presence and

10:51

that dissonance that disconnect

10:53

between this reflective capacity between

10:55

knowing this sense the do

10:58

something wrong with those practices

11:00

the practices themselves is the hegel that's

11:02

what drives history forward roy

11:05

, so will be you you've mentioned their patterns

11:07

of consumption this is where maybe we can

11:09

talk about how hagel thinking on

11:11

this can help us to understand what's going

11:13

on at the moment with the climate crisis

11:15

we've we've talked about how maternity

11:18

your that the kind of the idea of self

11:20

determination that animates maternity

11:22

can reach its limits can fall into decay

11:24

and this way how do we see all the some folding

11:26

today in folding what we're now calling

11:28

the anthropocene

11:30

well i go i would say

11:32

would think that majority for all

11:34

it's capacity for self correction

11:37

still fundamentally

11:40

governed by a principle which gonna

11:42

reach its limits and i think some a the wind

11:44

which try my sense of it is that the

11:46

self determination built on this kind of resource

11:48

intensive view of the exploitation

11:51

of nature which really gets the whole process

11:53

of modern culture going culture going senses transfer

11:56

my signature passive is something

11:58

transform that's how we the were

12:00

realize human and it's true that transformation

12:03

where we end up with this point this point

12:06

is the point which we know that that

12:08

form of human self realization

12:11

itself is one which is both cause

12:14

the anthropocene i we understand

12:16

that this capacity be self determined

12:18

which transforming the world to serve human end

12:20

this is something that we have caused but

12:23

where the point now where we also know that

12:25

know that of life the

12:27

animated by self determination which

12:29

is is largely sort humans

12:32

and circumscribed mine it

12:34

cuts us off from the

12:36

natural world and were isolated

12:39

from it and we can see that that's the problem

12:42

and i think that's the point where point would get this get this

12:44

dissonance between this conception

12:46

of ourselves as free as

12:49

so determining agents as

12:51

was a in control of come sit of

12:53

forces by which are able to sort of govern

12:55

ourselves the most also forward to we

12:57

also know that that thousand and six the

13:01

natural world the crisis or was landed

13:03

outsourcing i think that's distance

13:05

run at moment and that's i guess the sentiments

13:07

intellectual interest in trying to make sense of how resolve

13:09

that division and think heigl is able

13:12

the give you a and a good sense of why

13:14

we as was sealed that tension the

13:17

challenge becomes is

13:19

maternity up for the up to the job right

13:22

he's it able to meet this vulnerability

13:26

and it makes this contradiction

13:28

between it and it's external nature

13:30

which choice limit all and ,

13:32

so such that it can live with it in way

13:35

that doesn't destroy anthony that the

13:37

same time time that's

13:39

i think that's the sort of moment wherein you're

13:42

listening this week to simon lumsden

13:44

from the university of new south wales

13:46

he works in the philosophy of history and

13:48

the environments and he's right here

13:50

with me david routledge in the philosopher routledge

13:52

sun

14:04

okay folks we talking about how

14:07

our modern habits and norms

14:09

are causing ecological breakdowns

14:11

and even while we know that these

14:13

norms of a no longer fit for purpose

14:16

we've become aware of this this

14:18

second nature inflexibility as

14:20

a month products with still

14:22

unable to break those habits to

14:24

transform them why

14:26

, that why is our reason and

14:29

our understanding the inadequate to that

14:31

challenge challenge it's and

14:34

made second nature explains it because the it

14:36

nature as out saying before

14:39

it wants to reproduce itself

14:41

this , of materiality of life

14:44

that just wants to keep doing emma i think it's partly

14:46

because windward second nature

14:48

functions is it's not

14:50

just that it's habit it's not

14:52

simply habit is that we take

14:54

that habit be the way reality

14:56

is front it's also a camel

14:58

claim that this is how the world

15:01

ought to be odd because we've been keep doing

15:03

something in said why this is how we

15:05

keep as word living this life

15:07

which involves this kind of resource intensive practices

15:10

that's the only one which are many for loss

15:12

is able to be achieved and

15:15

we want keep reproducing that and and

15:17

think it hangs case where he was has you sort of you

15:19

don't recognize what the new form of loss is

15:21

that correct that slowed

15:24

zoo until it arises this

15:26

where it's different from top to composite

15:28

the and towards which were headed that

15:30

know cosmopolitan ideal towards which were hitting

15:33

all philosophy can do is make sense of why

15:35

the thing the site there were a now is falling

15:38

apart and that's because

15:40

we got a form of life material practice

15:42

which is atrazine and we've got rational

15:44

reflection was allows us to understand that

15:47

now what i would say is that the

15:49

suit offended you have lost if would be that in

15:51

a week resolve the spicer rational discourse

15:53

in the world is sort of flossie conference writ large

15:55

and a few i i can recognize

15:58

you know the there's

16:00

something wrong with my arguments and

16:02

you gave it a point that ass man

16:05

hey presto we move on selection

16:07

result that now is got the solution and

16:09

think heigl has not had a son has he like that

16:11

because because understands a culture

16:13

is embodied that the complexities by

16:15

which things transform requires

16:18

transform much more complicated historical prices

16:21

and prices think what he would say is that

16:24

the seeds for the transformation

16:26

of this type of was the wearing

16:28

isn't it it's able to transform itself to getting there

16:30

already they're they're taking place

16:33

in the discussions amongst environmentalist

16:35

some and possibly some kind of

16:37

clear thinking aspects

16:39

, civil society him and political lies

16:42

and those those arguments

16:44

are being put forward in this

16:46

culture and

16:49

there's a point at which that

16:51

as were more adequate concept will start

16:53

to be taken up and get some kind of institutional

16:55

for this is only optimistic view right

16:57

that and sack were able to reconcile ourselves

17:00

with this contradiction the

17:02

alternative is that just can't that

17:04

is full watched his collapses it's reached

17:07

the were it's shelf life and is

17:09

unable to resolve this animating contradictions

17:12

and some other completely new form life will

17:14

have to come in that to do that's another

17:16

thing you've written about recently is how

17:19

the idea of the anthropocene support

17:21

the argument that we have come to the end

17:24

of see nature culture dualism

17:26

that's been so foundational to western

17:28

thoughts in fact you have someone like our bill

17:31

mckibben her he wrote that wonderful

17:33

book will be and of nature is in ninety

17:35

ninety ninety and this was before people

17:37

were talking about the anthropocene but that

17:39

book sets out the argument

17:41

pretty neatly what neatly what bill mckibben saying

17:44

they're about nature and culture so

17:46

in mckibben case the basic

17:49

argument is that

17:51

everything it become contaminated with human practice

17:54

runs so we can no longer sustain the idea

17:56

that there's some nature which is completely independent

17:58

of us that

18:00

the him that idea of it is gone

18:02

and his morning that loss on

18:05

that the something about climate change

18:07

the nature of the come resource intensive practices

18:10

of human beings that means it's back to never

18:12

be recovered and to him the

18:14

political strategy at some level is

18:16

, we go about removing as much

18:18

of that human intervention from that natural space

18:20

possible to allow those places to flourish

18:23

with minimal human intervention as as we can

18:26

can that means effectively the what what's happened

18:28

is if have the standard vision which comes back from in line

18:30

between culture notice a culturally and lot

18:32

and few it's really the demand

18:35

that we create for ourselves in which we live

18:37

alfredo the space where

18:39

we live and

18:41

nature is outside of us and

18:43

where does how many of that is in it's fair it's

18:45

not the summoning us where the timing it

18:47

in this space and

18:50

in mckibben case think he understands that with

18:52

the effects of climate change

18:54

being so pervasive we

18:56

can't hold that division anymore everything

18:58

is has an effect turned into culture there

19:00

is no nature in that sense of being completely

19:02

independent of us anymore of as he he's not

19:04

talking about nathan sense of the causal

19:07

the other move in a celestial bodies and so on those

19:09

things are not affected us talking about nice

19:11

in this in the idea of a kind of sense

19:13

of sort wild spaces independent of human

19:15

being

19:16

anything evidence of climate change

19:18

at the top mount everest micro plastic sing

19:20

the deepest parts of ocean this kind of thing

19:22

that the the imprint of of human hands

19:24

every with the interesting corollary

19:27

of that argument is that if nature

19:30

understood as the binary opposite of culture

19:32

is is over is gone then

19:35

the role of environmentalism becomes

19:37

complicated because everything becomes understood

19:39

as as the built environment in in

19:41

some says this is me either it and about

19:43

this what you think other strengths

19:45

and weaknesses of conceiving

19:47

of non human nature in that way as as

19:49

cultured landscape because it's it's not

19:51

just to sort of spin bill mckibben very

19:54

pessimistic about that view

19:56

but there's a view according to which we can work with

19:58

that it is is that your view

20:00

look i think this i'm ambivalent about if

20:03

we , we submit cubans arguments

20:05

that in a certain degree and seventy something

20:07

his resisting that all

20:09

landscapes has to seen colts it because human

20:12

imprint is everywhere upon them

20:14

then this couple options to this one

20:16

this to say embrace that

20:19

the other yeah everything is the built environment

20:21

effectively mean even from

20:24

the depths the ocean to antarctica

20:26

because i've got him an imprint on

20:28

them i can't be as a would

20:30

disentangle from that implants some

20:32

degree they all spectrum

20:35

from new york to antarctica

20:37

all bad this kind of

20:39

human culture they're all human cultures in certain

20:41

sense now

20:44

the positive aspect that for me is

20:46

that it becomes challenge environmentalism

20:49

because the standard view of environmentalism

20:52

which environmentalism on display mckibben

20:54

zeigler is a what's informants wasn't too sensitive

20:56

protect nature what they mean by nature

20:59

that thing external to ah switches

21:01

untainted by human hands

21:05

now there are many admirable faces

21:07

about that idea but in context

21:09

of the anthropocene it seems no longer

21:11

to be viable view is everything

21:14

we can't removed

21:16

that human hand any more it's there

21:19

it can't be taken away

21:21

what it does nothing

21:23

one once you embrace that view at certain

21:26

levels and then it

21:28

shifts environments was in different direction

21:30

so for someone like stephen vogel rights

21:32

is important book from two thousand and fifteen

21:35

thinking like a mall he

21:37

would i use of what does it she said from this

21:39

protection of external nature to thinking

21:41

about human practices if

21:43

, have built this environments such said

21:45

it's ugly deformed deformed

21:48

degraded then we have done us

21:50

and we are responsible for it and we and to

21:53

focus on that and think some a the great strength

21:55

of that approaches that

21:58

rather than just saying environment concerned

22:00

with protecting antarctica

22:03

or old in the south as far as tasmanian

22:05

or something the environment is

22:07

everywhere it's from

22:09

new york to antarctica and

22:11

that since environmental projects become

22:13

all of that space and

22:16

that's that's the great strength

22:18

of the on strength of is that i think that's

22:20

positive sense this idea

22:22

sir pristine wilderness has

22:26

a very problematic colonial

22:28

legacy that view of will

22:30

then this then this pronounced i think the american context

22:33

but it it is also something that's

22:35

on display is frank onyx people like masha

22:37

length in a written about this in australia

22:41

then you sign context want to talk about wilderness

22:43

has a pristine space independent

22:46

from human contact it becomes new form of

22:48

colonization right

22:50

that what that means is that the

22:52

land management practices

22:55

of first nations people their

22:57

voice and to be written out the story it's

22:59

just nature and it has no

23:01

human imprint upon it and

23:03

, the advantage of this

23:05

approach governmentalism is that that

23:08

is not an issue anymore because

23:10

they're all cultured landscapes on

23:13

even if the way in which they culture is quite different

23:15

with first nations people from you know

23:17

industrialized economies economies

23:21

it's continuous so that means we

23:23

have to confront and think through the way

23:25

in which all landscapes bear a human

23:27

a and think that

23:29

the positive aspect the it and

23:31

the negative aspect means i guess

23:34

what i missing here i for from

23:36

this account this something but challenges the

23:38

anthropocentrism of something but to maternity

23:41

the negative aspect is how

23:44

you make the space for

23:46

nature no nature the highly

23:48

contested notion it's along

23:51

with culture it's probably the most contested

23:53

concepts in concepts in philosophy

23:55

and is in a nimble definitions of what it

23:57

means

24:00

the main problem becomes is that once

24:02

you make all

24:04

that night you into as aware of landscape

24:06

a built environments then

24:09

the difference that nature has

24:12

from ah appeared

24:14

to be lost how do we didn't think about

24:17

the forces at play in an environment

24:19

which aren't human with which

24:21

we engage with your presence how

24:23

do make sense of of them and their role

24:25

in that environment and i met some a the

24:28

problem with that approach is

24:30

how we build that different

24:32

way of thinking about the

24:35

nonhuman within the environment

24:38

that said it's that you can be assigned

24:42

and each role and it's importance of

24:44

fun without just turning into

24:46

something that we have transformed

24:48

or something that says iran now i think

24:50

that's the challenge yeah

24:52

, in you mentioned earlier just

24:54

in passing the ways in which the

24:56

cultural in print with the maternity

24:58

on the landscape is different

25:00

from the imprint of say first nations

25:03

coaches nations go on the landscapes

25:05

on the guess the really key difference

25:07

there is that in first nations culture

25:09

we see the sort of dependencies

25:11

at work and sort of reciprocal relationship

25:14

between humans and the nonhuman well we're

25:16

as madonna the seems be very much about ceiling

25:19

our self off from all the vulnerabilities

25:21

that those reciprocal relationships in tales

25:24

do you think that what we're going

25:26

to have to do if we

25:28

are going to sort of thing and then practice

25:30

our way out of the bind that wherein

25:33

is going to sort of reintroduced

25:35

those reciprocal relationship like

25:37

yes our culture does affect the landscape

25:40

it in some way the landscape has to affect us

25:42

as well in a way that's isn't necessarily

25:44

going to be too i like him look think that's exactly

25:47

right i'm in the challenge becomes i didn't

25:49

know why that

25:50

not romanticized and

25:53

so they descended were

25:55

thinking about hunter gatherer societies nets apology

25:57

is that the animal

25:59

why and the forces

26:01

of nature more generally they the copa dissipates

26:04

a part of human social

26:06

life and you can't disentangle the to

26:09

and the challenges how

26:12

we make ourselves understand

26:14

ourselves in western maternity as

26:16

code pendant haven't a reciprocal license

26:18

with non human

26:20

elements of the natural involve the of the environments

26:24

in way that is able

26:26

to reconcile us off with determined

26:29

self assembling character maternity pants

26:31

and that's the challenge that i think how

26:34

that can resolve itself is the some is is

26:36

is still supply out if that's possible

26:39

because it would

26:41

cripple we take me down a today i'm because

26:43

maternity is we are so producing

26:46

and so the summoning we do this in this human

26:48

describe space nature their frustrates boys

26:51

and , we present nature as

26:53

purposes of concern is in some form then

26:56

we have to think about that freedom the

26:58

has animated us at this point in time in

27:00

very different why to them

27:02

we would have to think of nature non

27:05

human animal life and the other

27:07

aspects of natural world has in some

27:09

sense parts of us the

27:12

way of understanding a successor we

27:14

see ourselves in it rather

27:17

than we just being in this specific

27:19

human circumscribed demand

27:22

and is clearly the that's present in many

27:25

hunter gatherer societies that way thinking

27:27

about themselves but that

27:28

That's not something we can appropriate. I and he problems

27:31

with that kind of appropriate to it and

27:33

generate get, there would be be another of colonialism.

27:35

So whatever that relationships

27:37

that would have to be, would have to be something very different to

27:40

that model,

27:42

Lumsden associate professor of philosophy

27:44

at the University of New South and

27:46

you can find more information on the Philosopher's

27:49

Stone son website can also

27:51

find download link to the past

27:53

programs are the day or by

27:55

the ABC, listen app, and on

27:57

David Rockledge on Twitter @david

27:59

Pisa. and i look forward to the company

28:01

right here in the philosopher's stone the