0:03

Welcome to the Multiply Network Podcast, a podcast created

0:07

to champion church multiplication, provide learning and inspire

0:11

new disciple-making communities across Canada.

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My podcast fam, welcome to the Multiple Network podcast.

0:27

My name's Paul Fraser and thanks for tuning in today.

0:31

Really excited to share this interview I did with Dan Collado.

0:35

He's the Academic Director for Aboriginal Bible Academy

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and also serves in our

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PAOC Mission Canada ministry, helping give leadership to

0:44

our national focus on Indigenous Peoples.

0:47

I feel this is such an important

0:50

conversation, an important

0:52

interview, not just to listen to, but really to lean

0:55

into as it relates to our Indigenous

0:58

Peoples. We're going to actually do

1:01

a follow-up interview with him and some other Indigenous leaders

1:04

later. But this interview lays such a good foundation on how

1:08

Indigenous communities think, act,

1:11

believe differently than the typical

1:13

Canadian majority mindset.

1:16

I'm telling you, I learned so much from this interview.

1:19

And if you are a leader in church world, you need to hear what

1:23

Dan has to say. He says it in humility,

1:27

in grace, with patience and optimism.

1:31

You see, we need to be about helping our Indigenous Peoples, but how

1:35

we help makes all

1:37

the difference. You're going to love this interview.

1:40

Stick around right to the end. And it's coming up right

1:43

now. Hi, Dan.

1:46

Welcome to the Multiply Network podcast.

1:50

Hi, Paul, thank you, good to be here. So glad to have

1:54

you. Excited to talk with you about a little bit of your ministry

1:58

experience, your passion and your heart for indigenous

2:02

people. So why don't you give us a short summary,

2:06

a short history, of what you've been doing and then

2:09

we'll jump in to where you're at today?

2:12

Sure, sure. I know when you think

2:17

of involvement concerning indigenous ministry

2:21

and the experience that a person might have regarding that,

2:25

I usually begin by entering that

2:30

with stating that I'm actually status First Nation

2:34

myself. But that actually had nothing to do

2:37

with my getting involved with indigenous ministry.

2:42

I was thinking my passion and involvement with

2:46

Indigenous ministry really stems from, I think, a wrestling

2:50

match that I had with God in the early 90s.

2:53

And I graduated

2:55

from the ABBC at the time and I majored in missions.

2:59

I had designs of being a missionary overseas

3:04

somewhere. And certainly, back then, I mean, that was the idea

3:10

of what a missionary meant, was being overseas. But the doors

3:13

didn't open for various reasons and it kind of sent me spiraling

3:17

a bit, and kind of questioning God,

3:20

not so much about my calling, but just wondering, All right, Lord.

3:23

Well, if not overseas, then what? And where?

3:26

And so I couldn't really see myself,

3:28

back then, you know, in some traditional pastoral role.

3:31

So I felt like my spiritual wheels were

3:35

spinning a bit and there wasn't a lot of traction. So I remember

3:39

getting down to business with God. It was

3:45

late 1992. It was either December of '92 or January of '93.

3:49

And I had finally completely surrendered, and I made this

3:53

commitment to Him and I told the Lord, I said, I am willing to go

3:57

to literally any place where there's a need.

4:00

And I said,

4:03

The next door that opens, I'm going to walk through it.

4:08

And so I said, you know, if it's not your will, Lord, then you're going

4:12

to have to be the one that closes it because I'm committed to go.

4:15

And so, long story short, within that same year, within that

4:19

same timeframe, a few weeks even,

4:23

through some various godly

4:26

appointed or divine appointments, I

4:30

really, I found myself, along with my wife of

4:34

- it was just a little less than three years at that time - we

4:37

were pastoring in a small fly-in First Nations community in

4:41

Northern Ontario. And so to this day,

4:44

I continually find myself saying

4:47

yes to indigenous ministry opportunities.

4:49

Yeah, so talk to us about where that fly-in place is,

4:53

because I think most people are like, oh, you know, it's probably

4:56

close to Toronto or something. Right? But no, you

4:59

are north. Yeah. Yeah.

5:01

Well, my very first place

5:06

where we moved to was in northern Ontario. It was a fly-in First

5:09

Nations community called Weagamow Lake, formerly known as

5:13

Round Lake. They now have - this was

5:18

after our time there - they now actually have

5:22

a full-season road that kind of connects with the all-season

5:28

road that ended at Wendigo Lake just north of Pickle

5:32

Lake and lookout area in

5:36

there. But following that, we then moved

5:40

to - because apparently that wasn't far enough north - we

5:44

moved to Rankin Inlet, Nunavut. And

5:49

we were there for ten years pastoring with the Inuit

5:53

there. Wonderful times, wonderful moments

6:00

of being able to share

6:02

and to see firsthand, and experience firsthand,

6:06

the culture and the different cultures between the

6:10

Oji-Cree that were in northern Ontario, where we

6:14

ministered and then, of course, the Inuit with the Inuktitut as the

6:19

formal language there. Right.

6:21

And why don't you tell us what you're doing today. So that didn't

6:24

stop with those ministry experiences. You continue on with

6:27

Mission Canada. Why don't you talk to us a little

6:29

about what you're doing there? Certainly, yeah.

6:33

Actually, with Mission Canada. It's a part-time

6:38

role that I'm involved with concerning Mission Canada

6:42

as serving as the Indigenous Canadians Coordinator.

6:48

As the coordinator, I

6:50

work with a team from across

6:53

our various districts, helping to champion one

6:56

of the five identified

6:58

missional priorities of Canada, which are, of course, the Indigenous

7:01

Peoples. And so we endeavor to

7:04

highlight indigenous ministry and help raise awareness to the rest of

7:08

the fellowship. But my full-time

7:12

position, calling, is in my involvement

7:16

with Aboriginal Bible Academy, where I'm the full-time Academic

7:20

Director. It's a theological training,

7:23

education training and equipping

7:26

center for Indigenous Leadership Development.

7:29

And so we help with the equipping

7:31

and establishing of distance training centers across Canada.

7:35

Yeah. Amazing and important

7:37

work. And so grateful that you're doing it.

7:42

I'm looking forward to doing a podcast with some indigenous

7:46

leaders like yourself and others in the future.

7:49

But for our podcast today, I do want to take -- I do

7:53

want to get your take on what do you think are the biggest needs

7:57

in indigenous communities now and maybe in this covid

8:02

season? Sure.

8:04

Well, I know that is... It's a huge question

8:10

and it can have several, I think, rabbit trails where we could spend

8:14

all day chasing. I mean, you do have your typical

8:18

kind of headline grabbers, you know, where statistically

8:22

suicide is an issue. I think the last

8:26

stat that I saw was like six times that of the national average.

8:32

This is, of course, referring to the indigenous population, community.

8:37

Drug and alcohol abuse also

8:39

is often a problem. You've got domestic abuse,

8:42

which then is, I mean, that's often associated with the substance

8:46

abuse previously. There's also -- there

8:51

is a family dynamic crisis, I guess you can call it, if you

8:54

will. Because half of

9:00

the foster children -- I'm trying to recall

9:04

it. I just read it recently -- that half of the foster children

9:09

under the age of 14 in Canada are Indigenous.

9:14

And so you've got over half

9:16

of First Nations children in particular in Canada,

9:19

they actually live in single parent homes.

9:23

And so, but I say those things

9:29

and we hear those statistics and it helps us kind of quantify some

9:32

things, but really, in essence, those are just symptoms.

9:37

And certainly, you know, with the geographical

9:40

isolation, we've got covid,

9:43

you know, there have been some struggles because indigenous

9:46

people are such social people, so the restrictions with social

9:50

gatherings has had, certainly, an impact.

9:54

And then being geographically isolated. Relatively,

10:00

our communities, indigenous communities, have stayed

10:03

relatively safe. Because of that geographical isolation,

10:07

they've been kind of removed from some of

10:12

the particular hotspots

10:14

that happen in the more concentrated urban areas.

10:17

But then consequently, because they're geographically isolated,

10:21

if there ever was

10:23

breakouts that happened, of course, then they're physically distanced

10:29

from, you

10:31

know, the supplies and the services

10:33

that would be so vital for making an appropriate response

10:37

to disease and illness. I think aside from some

10:41

of those statistical

10:43

things that we can measure, there's a more subtle need within

10:48

the indigenous community that I think really cuts

10:52

much closer to the core.

10:56

And it's that indigenous people need to have a sense of

11:01

connection. And that really, that's the biggest

11:05

need. Not just connection with their

11:08

family, not just connection with other people, although

11:11

obviously, I mean, that plays a large role, but it's

11:15

literally a connection with everything. It's a connection with

11:18

their environment. The indigenous person needs to feel

11:22

connected to, like, all things.

11:25

And I know that this can kind of get us into the weeds a bit, but

11:30

like, with that question of What's the biggest need

11:34

and then, you know, what can the Christian do? What can the church do

11:37

to help address it? I think it really begins

11:42

with the need for the church

11:44

to understand, you know, how significantly

11:48

different the typical

11:51

indigenous world view is compared to the majority

11:54

world view in the rest of the world. And

11:59

I would submit that this is perhaps been the greatest

12:04

misstep for for the church, not

12:08

only in our history, but but presently as well.

12:12

Any other missteps that

12:18

that have happened or are happening they're typically because of

12:24

a relative ignorance of the prevailing indigenous worldview,

12:27

and I'm not suggesting in

12:30

any way that ignorance is intentional.

12:35

But, you know, it's just a natural happening of when

12:40

a majority tends to to share a particular world view.

12:44

We tend to assume that, well, everybody adheres to that.

12:48

And so I think in order to have

12:50

a meaningful impact with an indigenous person,

12:55

with an indigenous community, or really with anybody

12:59

for that matter, I think you need to have some sense of

13:03

what are the core values that they hold dear.

13:08

What's their world view? The truth is, I think we

13:12

all have a world view. I mean, we all live by a certain

13:15

set of values, right. That we use as a

13:19

baseline, if you will, that that helps determine

13:23

our particular course of action or to the different

13:27

decisions that we make every day. I really think that the church,

13:31

by and large, has has neglected to to realize just

13:35

how different the indigenous person thinks.

13:39

So, I mean, that just leads to really my next question

13:43

is, OK, so, you know, I'm raised in the majority

13:47

kind of culture, context.

13:51

I have a certain world view. What's different

13:55

than, maybe, my world view, than the -- you know, I don't know what

13:59

you call it - the average or the the typical.

14:02

I don't think there is. But what would be different in

14:05

indigenous peoples in their world view, generally speaking,

14:09

compared to, maybe, a majority mindset?

14:12

Sure. Sure. I appreciate you

14:15

wanting to make that distinction. I mean, because we are talking in

14:18

generalities and for the sake of clarity to help

14:22

kind of come to some general consensus of a course

14:26

of action, you know, that's just the nature of the beast.

14:30

You kind of have to talk in generalities. And so

14:33

what I would kind of describe a typical indigenous world

14:37

view, as succinctly as I can - And

14:42

I mean, this is really doing a great injustice to this

14:45

subject matter because, I mean, there are courses that are taught on

14:49

these things concerning, you know, an indigenous worldview

14:53

and the mind set - But for time's sake, a

14:57

typical indigenous worldview

15:00

is anchored primarily on one tenant of

15:05

belief. Now, there's nuance

15:07

to this, and to varying

15:09

degrees, each indigenous person,

15:11

depending on their upbringing,

15:15

what kind of society that they've been primarily

15:19

been exposed to, whether they're an urban indigenous person

15:23

or more rural or reserve setting

15:28

indigenous person. Typically an indigenous worldview

15:34

has this one main anchored tenant, a belief,

15:38

and it is the idea of having a communal

15:42

understanding of existence.

15:45

I guess that's how I would describe it.

15:48

For the indigenous person what that means is that every

15:52

human being, all human beings, not just

15:57

indigenous, but all human beings that they're seen and they see

16:00

themselves as part of the environment.

16:03

It's not simply that we're all connected as human beings with one

16:06

another, but that everything

16:09

is connected, everything has an influence upon

16:13

everything else. And it's the understanding

16:17

that, you know, that humanity is not at the center.

16:20

It's not the cog. But it's like a spoke

16:24

in the wheel of their environment, spoke in the wheel of their

16:27

existence, of their known reality.

16:30

And so I think with that then humanity

16:34

has not -- it's

16:36

not just that they are to take part

16:39

in their environment, but they are to be caretakers of that

16:42

environment. And so that that leads to this idea

16:45

of communalism. It becomes the chief value

16:49

as opposed to individualism, which I

16:53

would argue is perhaps the more predominant worldview

16:58

here in Canada. If you had to pick between the two,

17:01

communalism or individualism -- Oh, yeah.

17:05

A hundred percent. We'd say individualim. A hundred percent. Yeah.

17:07

And so I think consequently,

17:10

you know, this this indigenous worldview of communalism, it would

17:14

then give the community

17:17

priority over the individual. But that's not

17:20

to say, however, that

17:22

individualism is not valid because

17:25

it is. And that's, you know,

17:28

a deeper conversation that can be had at another time.

17:32

But I just want to contrast the traditional indigenous worldview

17:36

with the early colonists,

17:42

which, as I say, is still their world

17:45

view persists as the dominant worldview for Canada

17:51

to this day. But early colonial settlers,

17:55

their world view, they championed individualism

18:01

and a pioneerism. And so

18:07

that led them to

18:09

kind of see the environment. And this is important because this

18:13

is the biggest distinction,

18:15

is that this world view, along with championing an individualism,

18:21

it saw, most significantly, that humanity

18:26

was separate from their environment.

18:30

They weren't together. It was separate.

18:33

And so it really led to the seeing

18:36

the environment as more of a commodity that could

18:40

be explored, you know, subdued or conquered,

18:44

if you will, and it could be used

18:49

for one's own discretion. And so, you know, the idea

18:52

that came about from that is the idea of you can own land,

18:58

owning its resources and subduing the environment.

19:02

I think, while that was fully embraced by the

19:06

original settlers and the majority of Canadians today, the

19:10

indigenous person, for the most part, has always

19:15

maintained a communal understanding

19:17

of existence. This idea of ownership of something

19:22

outside of, say, your own decision, was

19:26

owning something outside of that, that was formed.

19:29

It was never truly adopted like it was with the rest of Canada.

19:33

So that at the core is the difference

19:37

between an indigenous worldview and perhaps the rest of Canada, you can

19:42

say. And so I think that,

19:44

you know, a church or the church as a whole

19:48

who wants to reach, you know, the typical indigenous person

19:51

or be involved in indigenous ministry in a community,

19:55

I think is really going to have to come to terms with this world

19:58

view. And what, you know,

20:01

what does that entail? I mean,

20:05

because the out-workings of this, of this world view,

20:09

knowing if an indigenous person has this communal sense

20:14

and understanding of existence, that we're all connected, that everything

20:17

is connected, it's going to change how we

20:22

interact. And so some of the things that

20:26

it's going to mean for the church is that we're going to need to start

20:30

thinking long term. Hmm...ok, just stop there.

20:34

Just stop right there. That's where we don't

20:38

do well. We want low hanging fruit,

20:42

short wins, lots

20:44

of wins. But to play a long game?

20:47

Because people lose interest

20:51

if it gets too long, if it gets too -- there's too much

20:55

to it. But I couldn't agree

20:59

more. So, you know, first of all,

21:03

I want to jump in, you know, just to something you said

21:06

earlier and then come into this playing the long game. Dan, I

21:10

don't know if I've ever heard it explained so well.

21:15

The difference. And I know you were taking some -- you know, as a

21:18

generalization and, you know, we prefaced it with like

21:22

it's just it's so different even from province

21:26

to province, even from region to region in that province,

21:30

the mindsets differ -- But I've never heard it explained so well.

21:33

So I just want to say, thank you for doing that. That was that was

21:37

just explained so, so well. And so unpack a little bit more

21:41

now, this long game. Because I think

21:45

this is the key. If we want to

21:48

reach indigenous peoples and not just like,

21:52

just say, Well we do. And we collectively nod.

21:54

And it's like grandmas and apple pie - and of course we're going to say

21:57

yes, and you know. But what do we need to do

22:00

in the long game? Where does it start and

22:03

how do we do that? Sure,

22:07

you know, so

22:10

in having this idea of needing to think long

22:14

term, we need to come to grips, not only with

22:18

what the world view of

22:21

-- what the worldview is of your

22:23

typical indigenous person, we need to come to terms with what

22:27

our world view is and what our values are.

22:31

You know, we value efficiency.

22:34

We value within our commodity-based

22:38

type of society, we have a highly efficient commercial

22:43

type of society. We've become very adept at

22:48

that, what I would call a transactional

22:53

interaction, right? And I'm including the church

22:56

on this. We've learned to be efficient in how to

23:01

deliver certain ministries and certain certain things.

23:04

I've got something that you want,

23:08

that you need, and I can efficiently get it to you.

23:11

So, you know, let's exchange services here and everyone's happy.

23:14

Right. And that's the extent of perhaps the relationship and the

23:18

connection. Well, indigenous culture was never,

23:22

never steeped in that manner. It was never deeply

23:26

competitive. It certainly wasn't a wage-based

23:30

economy. It was trade and barter system.

23:34

But specifically, it was motivated

23:36

by cooperative mutual

23:39

benefit, you know, born out of relationship.

23:42

And that was what was important. And it was important

23:46

because it shared that - and we go back to the world view - this

23:50

communal understanding of existence, that we're all in

23:54

this together. And

23:58

that's not to say, I mean, everything was rosy with, you know,

24:01

with indigenous communities. I mean, they had their conflicts.

24:05

They fought amongst each other. But it was primarily

24:09

having to do with wanting their community

24:14

to exist

24:17

and make it through the winter. So the resources were always

24:21

typically the issue, and land would be involved with that.

24:25

But

24:30

We are to be motivated by cooperative

24:37

mutual benefit, not so much a conquering

24:42

or outdoing your neighbour. You know, success

24:46

for the indigenous meant

24:48

the propagation of their community, their clan,

24:52

and that they made it through the winter. You

24:56

know, for the non-indigenous person, the colonialist, it

24:59

was not just

25:02

making it through the winter, but being or having

25:08

an affluence. And how do you measure affluence?

25:11

Compared to my next door neighbour, I'm doing pretty

25:14

good. So it was a bit less cooperative.

25:17

More competitive. I mean, that led to some amazing

25:21

things - you know, inventions and what have you.

25:25

But anyway, I just

25:30

-- I think we as a church need to understand

25:35

this communal relationship

25:37

is so integral to the indigenous person.

25:41

And to minister effectively, there needs

25:46

to be a

25:49

full appreciation and understanding of that. This hasn't

25:53

gone away. I mean, we're talking in generalities.

25:55

We're talking about something that certainly existed back in the

25:58

early days and continues to persist.

26:01

It's why our indigenous people weren't able to be assimilated.

26:05

It's why they still are here, and the government had to

26:08

relent on on some of their impositions

26:12

with the Indian Act because

26:15

indigenous refuse to change.

26:18

They refuse to become

26:20

non-indigenous. And so it is a long game

26:24

that we need to keep in mind. One of the things that you mentioned

26:32

earlier, too, that I thought was really important, one of the

26:35

missteps you identified was connection.

26:39

So obviously, understanding

26:41

this communal mindset,

26:45

this idea of We're all in this together; Everyone

26:49

plays a role - including our land, our environment -

26:53

all of it working together, and

26:57

somehow we're connected to it all. And so that's kind of a --

27:00

it's definitely a shift in

27:03

our thinking as a majority

27:05

mindset. So how do we practically,

27:10

you know, connect with our indigenous peoples beyond

27:13

tokenism, beyond

27:16

just like, Well, here's what we do. We give money or we do this.

27:19

But like, if -- We need to put this back on our radar

27:23

screens as a ministry. God

27:26

loves them incredibly.

27:29

In fact, He loves them as much as He loves anybody.

27:32

And his heart for them is incredible.

27:35

And we see the hurt, the pain, the brokenness caused

27:39

by some of the majority world view, that mindset, over the years.

27:43

And it's not like we're trying to repay something for what

27:47

happened before, but we want to bring health, wholeness and

27:50

healing and the kingdom to do that.

27:54

Not our ways, not our traditions, not our franchise models

27:58

of ministry. How do we connect?

28:01

OK, so, understanding the worldview. Being

28:05

long term in our thinking. Is there any other practical things

28:08

that we can do to help us reach out and be

28:13

a blessing to our indigenous peoples?

28:16

Absolutely, Paul.

28:20

I think, you know, to bring some good news to this.

28:23

Something I think that I would want to

28:29

encourage people with,

28:31

You don't need to be indigenous

28:36

to necessarily be an effective

28:39

and have an effective ministry

28:41

within an indigenous context. Ok.

28:44

Certainly it helps. To use, you know, urban vernacular,

28:50

it gets you street cred if you're indigenous.

28:53

But you don't need to be indigenous to minister

28:57

effectively. So one of the key --

29:02

one of the key elements, if

29:05

we're going to impact

29:08

the kingdom of God within the indigenous setting

29:12

and within the indigenous community,

29:14

it's going to take authenticity, for one. OK.

29:17

OK. I think it was Teddy

29:21

Roosevelt, you know, one of the American presidents there in the

29:25

early 1900s, he coined the phrase

29:29

that 'people don't care what you know until people know

29:33

how much you care'. And I think that the church's

29:38

attempts to minister cannot be simply a

29:43

transaction. Oh, you know, you need discipleship.

29:46

Oh, you need to be saved. Well, here's a program

29:49

and it can be done or it needs to be done, you know, at this certain time

29:53

or in this certain way. But instead, there must be

29:58

repeatable interactions

30:00

that are anchored in relationship,

30:03

authentic relationship. Yes, yes.

30:06

I want to be in connection with so-and-so a person

30:10

or such-and-such a person or such-and-such a community,

30:14

such-and-such a culture, not because I need to teach

30:19

them something, not because I want to

30:23

change them. But I want to be in connection with that

30:26

because I want to be in a relationship.

30:29

Right. And so that's going

30:32

to take authenticity. And so we need to balance

30:37

our incessant

30:39

need to be efficient with certain ways of how we go about things

30:45

in order to not bypass this

30:51

essential element of authenticity, because the relationship

30:57

component cannot be short circuited. It can't be bypassed.

31:01

You certainly, I mean, you can have some short term successes

31:05

and things of that nature. But, you know, if you're talking

31:09

about actual life change, you know, discipleship kind

31:14

of encounters where we're helping to develop a disciple-making

31:20

communities within an indigenous context, that doesn't

31:24

happen on a weekend initiative. And

31:28

so that kind of leads me to kind

31:32

of the second requirement, which I actually touched on earlier, and

31:35

that has to do with longevity. You've got to be authentic

31:41

for a long time. If you want to develop

31:46

an effective ministry into an indigenous community, then

31:50

you've got to think long term. And as, you know, as

31:55

building projects and week-long VBS initiatives, I mean, they

31:58

are useful. They have their place.

32:01

And certainly often as entry points to that beginning point of,

32:05

beginning time of relationship building, but true

32:10

disciple-making communities really

32:12

only come about through prolonged

32:14

intentional relationship-based interactions that are repeatable.

32:19

They happen again. Where there is - again, we

32:22

go back to this worldview - a cooperative mutual benefit.

32:26

So it's not just, to use this vernacular, 'the white man coming

32:32

to help rescue the Indian'. There is this sense of cooperative

32:37

mutual benefit coming as much for the indigenous

32:41

person to say, you know what,

32:45

how can we help you? It's like, how can you feed into us?

32:49

How can we mutually benefit from our interaction with one

32:53

another? That is at the core of the success

32:59

within indigenous ministry. But, you know, as you know,

33:03

relationships, they take time.

33:06

Yep. And it's just that,

33:09

for the indigenous person, relationship

33:14

is more important. It's not what you know. They need to know you. You know, and I love what you're

33:24

saying there. Because, of course, nobody wants to be seen as a

33:27

project. Nobody, you know, everybody wants

33:30

relationship. And it's no different here. But I like the priority that you're

33:34

placing on it. That that has to come first before

33:37

anything else. One of the things that I

33:42

think, at least in -- I'll speak generally -- that

33:47

there is a stereotype that our indigenous peoples are just

33:50

takers, that they don't have this communal

33:54

mindset. And I think it's so important for us just to

33:57

underscore that; that there's a deep need to give as

34:01

well. That mutual benefit piece,

34:05

I think gets missed. And, you know, and I think if

34:09

we come in knowing that and saying, hey, we're here in

34:12

partnership. We're not -- there's not a leader and a follower.

34:16

We're here together. We're going to have more

34:18

journey-thinking, opposed to destination-thinking, and

34:22

we just come alongside. I think that's really important

34:25

because a light bulb went off for me when you said that. It's like, Oh!

34:28

Man, we've got to shift our mindset

34:31

that, you know -- and it's a wrong mindset -- you know.

34:35

Of course, there's probably,

34:38

you know, outliers on both sides of the thing, where there are just

34:41

takers. And that's no different

34:43

in any culture, any majority mindset anywhere.

34:47

But there's but I love what you're saying. There's a heart to give.

34:51

There's a heart to participate. There's a heart to be in

34:53

relationship. Because nobody wants to be in a relationship where

34:57

all you're doing is giving. That's right.

34:59

That's right. Right? So why is it any different? Right? Why is it

35:03

any different? I love what you're saying. And I want to jump

35:07

into that disciple-making community conversation, because that's what

35:10

we're trying to reengage

35:13

in the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada.

35:16

How can we become a multiplication

35:18

movement again? And I think you've shared some

35:20

things that I think are helpful as we think through

35:24

having disciple-making communities with our

35:27

indigenous peoples. Any other thoughts?

35:30

Any of the things that we can be thinking about?

35:32

Maybe there's leaders out there that are going, I feel called here.

35:37

I'm feeling, you know, a pull. Some of the things you're saying,

35:39

the Lord's speaking. How do we get disciple making

35:42

communities amongst our indigenous communities?

35:46

Well, you know, I

35:48

want to be encouraging to, you know, to the church, to

35:53

our Pentecostal Fellowship that, you know, there's there

35:57

is amazing potential

36:00

within the indigenous community

36:03

for ministry. I know that our

36:08

indigenous churches and leadership, they're

36:12

looking for opportunities to be in

36:16

partnership, to be networking, to be

36:18

in relationship. I know one of the initiatives

36:23

that I often encourage when, say I get a call

36:27

from a church looking to to do some

36:31

type of ministry expression, and they're looking at, you know,

36:35

perhaps maybe an indigenous component.

36:38

Of course, we kind of walk through and talk through this idea

36:42

If you want to be truly effective, it's going to take

36:45

time. It's not just one-off and special projects -- not

36:50

to demean, you know, one-off special projects, they have their

36:54

purpose. They have a certain value.

36:59

But it's that understanding

37:01

of being in a relationship

37:09

where they're recognizing -- and I think actually

37:14

you alluded to it and it's so key concerning

37:18

the journey -- The journey truly is as important

37:23

as what we would like to see as the end result.

37:26

I know in our efficiency focused culture, it's all about

37:31

getting to the ends. And for the indigenous person,

37:35

generally speaking, the means is just as important.

37:38

Yeah. You know, so

37:42

the the idea of sitting down and having a meal and meeting

37:48

the family is just

37:50

as important, and perhaps is

37:54

essentially, in the beginning,

37:56

it's more important than what it is that you really want to say

38:00

because you'll never get a chance to say it or it'll never truly be heard

38:04

unless you put that relationship first. That's good. So the

38:09

journey is just as important. And I

38:12

think that can be somewhat of a paradigm shift for some

38:15

of our initiatives and ministry initiatives.

38:19

But, you know, when we're talking about discipleship,

38:22

it really is a lifelong endeavor that we're referring to.

38:28

You know, discipleship isn't

38:30

a set of special meetings over a weekend or during a season.

38:34

We're talking about lifelong learning.

38:38

And it's unfortunate, but, you know, we should

38:43

be seeing so much more

38:47

of a natural progression within the indigenous

38:52

culture, within the indigenous church culture

38:58

than we currently do, because the indigenous culture

39:02

is, I mean, it is perfectly made for

39:07

this type of mentorship and discipleship where you

39:11

look to a role model and there's this journey of walking

39:15

together. I mean, precisely how Jesus

39:19

modeled discipleship and disciple-making, what it was

39:23

supposed to look like. The indigenous culture has that in

39:28

spades. But in our anxiousness,

39:33

you know, the church from the outside not understanding the

39:37

culture at that time, you

39:40

know, came in more, as you know,

39:45

with the sense of needing to conquer

39:48

the culture. And, you know, trying

39:52

to work the - what was perceived as

40:01

inappropriate or what have you - within the indigenous

40:05

culture and Christianizing things, and

40:09

there wasn't a full appreciation

40:11

of just how developed

40:14

the society and indigenous

40:16

society was. Because it was one of the misnomers, the mistakes,

40:21

you know, of the early settlers and the colonists as they came

40:27

in, they made the assumption that the indigenous was, you know,

40:30

savage, was uncivilized. And had no idea the robustness

40:36

of the culture and how they dealt with

40:39

decision making, value system, correction,

40:44

you know, behavior modification, all these things.

40:48

Certainly there wasn't the robustness that they saw,

40:51

you know, when they looked and compared it to their own culture.

40:55

But they didn't need that same robustness because

40:58

there wasn't the same type of values and the aggressiveness wasn't there

41:03

as it was, you know, because typically an individualistic

41:06

culture, you know, that has a pioneering spirit, it

41:10

leads to more aggressive behavior.

41:13

You know, typically then your law

41:15

system and your legal system has to be a little more robust and and

41:19

succinct and very specific because behaviors

41:24

tend to be more aggressive, and so you needed to deal with those

41:27

things. But in the indigenous culture, it wasn't

41:30

so much so. But anyway, I mean, that kind of got

41:34

us in a roundabout way.

41:38

But the idea that there is a journey that needs to be walked

41:41

together in. Yeah. And one of the things you

41:44

know, that I think you talked about the misnomers of the culture

41:48

not being civilized. I would also add the spirituality

41:51

piece was quite robust and quite

41:55

evident. And I think that's

41:58

one of the you know, again, one of those misnomers.

42:01

I think there's an openness to spirituality,

42:05

to God, to the kingdom of God, you

42:09

know, not always our traditions, but I think Jesus is still very

42:13

appealing. The teachings of Jesus is still very

42:16

appealing. As you mentioned, the

42:18

model of discipleship is very

42:20

appealing. I want to --- Dan, this has been

42:23

rich. And, you know, again, looking

42:25

forward to that panel that we can do with you and some others.

42:30

But just as we're closing

42:32

here today, what are you excited about?

42:35

You have a bit of a national picture. You sit on a national team,

42:39

you're training leaders locally, but provincially, regionally.

42:43

What are you excited about? Where are you seeing God work

42:47

and where there's even more potential for the kingdom

42:50

of God to advance with our

42:53

incredible indigenous peoples?

42:59

Sure, sure. You know, I'm going to look back on on the history,

43:04

church history. There have been a number of

43:07

significant, very, very significant moves of God in the history of

43:11

the Pentecostal church, in the PAOC, within the indigenous community.

43:18

Now, admittedly, you know, I'd have to say there's a bit of an ebb

43:23

in indigenous church growth within

43:25

the PAOC currently. Many of our of our indigenous pastors,

43:30

leaders, you

43:32

know, they're reaching or exceeding retirement age.

43:35

And there's definitely a need to train and develop, you know, a

43:40

new generation of indigenous pastors

43:43

and ministry leaders. But I have to say, I'm

43:46

excited. I'm excited about what lies ahead.

43:52

Indigenous people - I always say this - Indigenous people

43:56

make great Pentecostals. They really do.

43:58

They don't need to be convinced -- (Laughter) Wow. I agree.

44:02

-- in the spirit realm. And

44:05

that permits them to be naturally supernatural. To

44:10

operate under the unction on freedom of the Holy Spirit as

44:14

just a natural extension of their relationship with Christ.

44:18

But further to that, they are our first peoples of

44:24

our nation. They are, were,

44:27

the original caretakers of this land.

44:32

And if -- I truly believe this -- if we believe

44:35

in praying for God to bless our nation of Canada

44:40

and to bless our ministry efforts within its boundaries,

44:45

then I feel that that blessing, in part, it flows

44:49

through our indigenous people and the relationship that we have

44:53

with them, that the church has with them. And I think that's so key.

44:57

Yeah, thanks for sharing that, because I believe that

45:00

too. I think God

45:04

definitely is smiling. I know his heart is broken for what

45:08

is happening in some of our indigenous communities.

45:11

But as a people, he smiles. As a people, He looks at them with

45:15

great compassion and care. And I believe, as you mentioned,

45:19

this isn't a leadership crisis just amongst our indigenous leaders.

45:23

This is a leadership crisis across the board as our boomers

45:28

retire and move on into retirement. And there's Gen Xers

45:33

are kind of that, you know, there's very few of us right now

45:37

that are in ministry. And then, of course, engaging

45:40

millennials and younger is the vision moving forward.

45:43

That's no different than for our indigenous peoples as we even

45:46

think about teen suicide and some of the brokenness

45:50

you talked about early on. I want to thank you for

45:55

just sharing your heart, but sharing - you know,

45:58

just with with grace. And compassion.

46:02

You know, I'm excited,

46:07

you know, as I hear what you're saying. I'm excited again,

46:11

just to reengage more conversation. I think we need to position

46:15

ourselves as learners like I did today and moving

46:19

forward. So, Dan, thanks for doing that. If people wanted to

46:25

ask you some more questions, maybe get involved with some of the

46:29

things you're involved with, how would they get a hold of you?

46:32

Well, my

46:35

my email with Aboriginal Bible Academy is

46:37

director@AboriginalBibleAcademy.ca. So you can reach me there.

46:44

Also, Daniel.Collado@PAOC.org

46:53

is also available concerning

46:55

Mission Canada specifically. And yeah, I can be reached there.

47:00

You can even call me. I've got to work number -- it's

47:05

at home. Of course, with this whole covid thing, I've been working at

47:08

home actually long before this. I've been working at home since

47:14

ten years ago, with being in distance education and

47:17

that. But (613) 344-1703 and people can

47:19

reach me that way. Amazing. Thank you, Dan. Thank

47:26

you so much for jumping on today. We really appreciate it.

47:30

All right. Lord bless you, Paul. Thank you for the invitation.