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0:44

Hey, hey, I'm Brittany Luce and you're

0:46

listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a

0:49

show where we talk about what's going on in

0:51

our culture and why it doesn't

0:54

happen by accident.

0:54

And a warning to listeners, this

0:57

episode includes mentions of racialized violence

0:59

and murder.

1:02

Today we're talking about Martin Scorsese's

1:05

latest film, Killers of the Flower

1:07

Moon, and why some American audiences

1:09

are leaving the Oscar contender deeply

1:12

disappointed and even hurt. I

1:14

had a one word which was just disaster.

1:17

I think it worked as a piece

1:18

of filmmaking, yes, but I think

1:21

there's a lot that's missing. It's

1:23

an intriguing film. It had some

1:26

serious issues with storytelling and what gets left

1:28

out of the story.

1:29

For those of you who may be unfamiliar, Killers

1:31

of the Flower Moon is the most recent entry

1:34

into Scorsese's catalog of

1:36

aggrieved white male characters.

1:38

It stars two of Marty's favorites, Leonardo

1:41

DiCaprio and Robert De Niro, as

1:43

well as the dazzling Lily Gladstone,

1:46

an American epic about greed, thievery,

1:49

and unspeakable betrayal. Set

1:51

on the Osage land of Oklahoma about

1:53

a century ago. It's also

1:56

three and a half hours long.

1:58

I'm here to speak.

1:59

with Molly Burkhart, who's sisters

2:02

and mother, his dad, and

2:04

my wife. Now

2:07

I'm a longtime Scorsese fan, so the running

2:09

time didn't bother me so much. I

2:12

found Killers of the Flower Moon to be

2:13

an impressive feat, beautifully

2:15

directed and superbly acted. It

2:18

felt like after years of showing white men

2:20

as the hero, Scorsese subverted

2:23

expectations to paint them as villains.

2:26

But still, like so many viewers, I was

2:28

haunted by the story of Killers for days

2:30

after I see mine.

2:31

Based on the Pulitzer Prize-winning book of the same

2:34

name, the film tells the

2:35

story of the Reign of Terror in the plains

2:37

of Oklahoma.

2:38

From 1918 to 1931, over 60

2:41

members of the Osage Nation were

2:43

murdered for their land and their oil

2:45

wealth by white settlers.

2:47

Robert De Niro plays William Hale, one

2:49

of the masterminds behind the murders, and Leonardo Caprio

2:52

plays his nephew, Ernest Burkhart,

2:54

who becomes a part of

2:55

the plot to marry into, poison,

2:58

and

2:58

steal Osage wealth. I

3:00

don't know what she said, but it must have been Indian

3:03

for the handsome devil.

3:05

Lily Gladstone plays Molly Kyle,

3:07

a wealthy Osage woman who marries Ernest Burkhart.

3:10

And as she buries her mother, her

3:12

sisters, and becomes very sick

3:14

herself, she finds her husband is

3:16

not the man

3:17

she thought he was.

3:18

I'm not the one who wants to be the man who

3:21

wants to be the man she wants to

3:23

be. I'm not

3:25

the one who wants to be the man she wants

3:28

to be. Killers of the Flower Moon has received many

3:30

a rave review, and it's primed to become

3:32

an Oscar favorite,

3:33

but critiques of the film have also

3:35

run deep, raising hugely important

3:38

questions about our movies and their inability

3:41

to grapple with the American destruction

3:43

of indigenous communities. You can

3:45

win the very best filmmakers. Try

3:48

their

3:48

very best.

3:50

That's the view I'm unpacking today with three

3:52

incredible guests.

3:54

Liza Black, a history professor at Indiana

3:56

University Bloomington, and Cherokee

3:59

Nation citizen. Nancy Marie

4:01

Myslow, a Gender Studies professor

4:03

at UCLA and Fort Sill,

4:05

Cherry Cofwell,

4:06

Warm Springs Apache citizen and

4:08

Robert Warrior, teaches literature

4:10

at the University of Kansas and is an

4:13

Osage Nation citizen.

4:18

Welcome to It's Been a Minute.

4:20

Nancy Marie Myslow. Good morning.

4:23

And Robert Warrior,

4:24

welcome. Good morning.

4:26

And Liza Black, thank you so much for joining us. Good

4:28

morning. Wonderful. Okay,

4:31

so I would like to hear more from each of you

4:33

about how you think the film works as a piece

4:35

of storytelling about Native

4:38

Americans and the Osage

4:40

people. Unfortunately, in

4:42

the US, these stories are woefully

4:45

under-taught to non-native people

4:47

and so when a movie gets made,

4:50

it can become the de facto

4:52

shorthand understanding of that

4:54

history or of those people. Robert,

4:57

you wrote a piece about how the film missed

5:00

a huge opportunity to talk about the government's actual

5:02

role in setting all of this horror up. There

5:05

are so many different ways to tell an Osage story.

5:07

I think that this one has been told before.

5:09

One of the reasons why the federal government didn't

5:11

show up in the first place is because

5:14

the federal government is what initiated what

5:16

was going on

5:17

through policies. And

5:19

I think one of the traps has been

5:21

to presume that by talking

5:24

about these murders, that

5:26

somehow solves the problem. That

5:28

the murders were solved and

5:31

then the reign of terror was over. Nothing

5:34

could be further from the truth. I think

5:36

that that was a way to avert attention away

5:38

from the underlying issues in

5:40

federal policy and in the history, particularly

5:43

of the Osages, but also within the

5:46

larger history of Native American

5:48

dispossession that led

5:50

to this.

5:51

Looking at how much focus the film puts on

5:53

the whole plot for Ernest to marry Molly

5:55

and then kill her

5:56

for her inheritance and head rights, which

5:59

is horrific.

5:59

in and of itself. It does set

6:02

us up to miss the forest for the trees and not see

6:04

the depth of the government's implication,

6:07

which is an interesting choice because of

6:09

course, the last third of the film, and

6:11

also the point of view of the book, Killers

6:14

of the Flower Moon, was really driven

6:16

by this Texas Ranger

6:18

US Marshal who's been sent from Washington

6:21

to actually fix things without

6:23

really making clear

6:25

just how much the government is

6:27

implicated in also being the quote

6:29

unquote bad guy of this story. We see

6:31

the people who show up to take advantage of the

6:33

situation, but we don't really

6:36

see the actual bureaucrats who

6:38

are there to make all of this work. And without

6:40

the context of the presence

6:43

of federal policy of the specific history,

6:45

I think it limits the choices you can make about

6:48

the story of their marriage. I

6:51

mean, I think that their marriage is wrapped up in all of this.

6:53

I mean, I'm just thinking aloud with you guys,

6:56

but I think the marriage indicates

6:58

choice,

7:00

right? To a outgoing audience that

7:02

they both had free will, okay? And

7:04

they were both somehow equal. Like you were

7:06

imagining that the Osage people

7:10

and Burkhart have somehow

7:12

just accidentally, magically fallen

7:14

in love. And that distorts

7:17

the narrative. I think that's what you were referring to Robert,

7:19

because there is no free choice for

7:22

the Osage people at this point. It

7:24

is a reign of terror at this point.

7:27

And so the marriage trope, it

7:29

doesn't look anything like a love story to me. Oh

7:32

my gosh, Nancy, Robert, I am so glad

7:33

y'all have brought that up because my understanding

7:36

was that the love part, it

7:38

was just something that like

7:39

Ernest told himself, like as a self delusion

7:41

to continue doing whatever evil he was

7:43

doing. But as I've seen more

7:46

and more criticism of the film, the love story

7:48

part continues to show up as

7:51

something people are centering in the story. It's

7:53

an accessory. It's an accessory to another

7:55

hero's journey into the wilderness. It's basically

7:58

a Western. I mean, give us a... And

8:00

if you're a hero you got to find you know

8:02

a love interest while you're out there in the wilderness

8:05

Having your journey with the exotic others,

8:08

you know, so it's all part of

8:10

that larger narrative

8:12

Eliza I

8:14

want to hear from you on this. How do you think that this

8:17

film works as

8:18

You know a piece of

8:20

storytelling about the Osage people in Native

8:22

Americans. I

8:23

Think it did a terrible job

8:26

really of telling the story in spite

8:28

of The tremendous effort

8:30

that went into this film and the

8:32

tremendous consultation with Osage's

8:34

that went into this film Let me say

8:37

that the Osage's in this movie

8:39

kicked ass I mean that scene

8:41

where all the Osage men are just

8:43

riffing like that's an incredible scene So

8:46

let's not forget that those folks did

8:48

a great job in the movie

8:50

But I was really shocked by

8:53

What I saw as a lack of storytelling

8:56

actually, I was very surprised there

8:58

wasn't a narrator to help viewers

9:01

manage all of these details

9:04

and I really want people to understand what

9:06

Robert's saying is there's there's a lack of

9:08

History in this film and there's also

9:11

a rejection of connecting

9:13

this story

9:14

to the present Hmm

9:16

these aren't policies That

9:19

are of the past These

9:21

are policies impacting Osage

9:23

people now. There's many

9:26

other churches

9:27

trust Individuals

9:30

who are currently Occupying

9:33

head right so I would just be

9:35

speech your Goodwill listeners

9:38

To engage with us.

9:41

Hmm. Hmm You know the Western

9:43

as you all have mentioned is one of Hollywood's iconic

9:46

genres Foundational genres

9:48

really but it hasn't necessarily

9:51

centered Native American stories or

9:53

told them with a lot of depth or accuracy How

9:55

have you seen the representation

9:57

of Native American people change over the decades?

10:00

in American cinema. You all have touched

10:02

on some of the headlining tropes

10:04

already, but I'd like to hear from you maybe

10:06

more in depth. What are some

10:07

of the tropes that emerge also when you

10:09

think about that representation over the past 100

10:13

years? Nancy? I just

10:15

want to get this out here really plain and clear.

10:17

More images does not equate

10:20

into more equity, right?

10:22

And having a heightened emotion

10:25

which violence will prompt

10:28

does not equate into empathy.

10:31

So we're working with a lot of, I

10:33

think, really base understandings that are incorrect.

10:37

We think that if

10:38

we can see someone suffering, we'll immediately

10:40

have empathy and that

10:42

emotion will somehow translate

10:44

into social policy. And for Native

10:47

Americans, it's specific and it's

10:49

unique from other marginalized communities

10:51

because when you prompt for empathy, basically

10:54

what gets triggered is this objectification

10:57

because Native people are objects just

10:59

like mascots, just like our artifacts,

11:01

just like our bones, just like the resources,

11:05

our land and our water

11:07

and our minerals, right? They're there

11:10

for extraction and exploitation and

11:12

commodification. So

11:14

Native people and the research that I've been

11:16

pursuing with a social scientist, Sasha

11:18

Sherman, basically can't be

11:21

put in that same research category as any minoritized

11:23

population in the United States because people trigger

11:25

differently with Native people. They objectify

11:28

them more readily and it has everything to do with

11:30

the Cowboys and Indians trope. And this

11:32

film just extends that trope further.

11:34

You've blown my mind telling

11:36

me that mainstream audiences

11:39

respond differently to Native

11:41

Americans than they do any other like

11:44

minoritized group in the United States. As a Black

11:46

person, that is mind blowing to me. One

11:49

of the things that kept turning over in my head was

11:51

about

11:52

the choice to

11:54

like center Ernest Burkhart, to

11:56

center someone like Leonardo DiCaprio and

11:59

to have his uncle, played

12:01

by Robert De Niro, who's kind of masterminding

12:03

a lot of these marriage plots. I kept

12:06

thinking, well, it

12:08

makes sense that Martin Scorsese

12:10

would

12:11

choose to cast those

12:13

actors and have those

12:15

characters be

12:17

the center of the story in some way, because my

12:20

assumption was if the story centered on

12:22

the Native American characters, that the

12:24

mainstream white film-going audience would over-identify

12:27

with the Native American characters and see themselves

12:30

as them without seeing

12:32

themselves as party to the violence

12:34

that was enacted upon them. It's very

12:36

interesting that you bring that up

12:38

as something that you've seen in your work, like that

12:41

that can be a thing that happens.

12:42

If you're interested in social change, you have

12:44

to have both the perpetrator and the victim

12:47

in the same scene with equal agency.

12:49

If you don't have that, then you're

12:51

not going to be able to move to a space

12:53

of equity or empathy.

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14:13

Mm-mm-mm-mm-mm. You

14:15

know, I want to hear from you, Liza, about

14:18

placing this film in the context of Hollywood cinema, how

14:20

you see the sort of longer history

14:23

of Native American representation in American cinema,

14:26

and what tropes jump out for you within that

14:28

history, as well.

14:31

My question would be, how has the representation

14:34

of white characters changed over

14:36

the history of cinema? Because we've laid out

14:39

a lot of problems with the movie, but

14:41

I think

14:42

another central problem to add to that

14:44

list is the problem of

14:46

white characters. I think that

14:48

the movie refuses, really,

14:51

to turn

14:51

Ernest into a villain.

14:54

I think it even refuses to turn William

14:56

into a villain. And so

14:58

I just really want to make it clear.

15:01

I feel that the problem in the history

15:03

of cinema is Hollywood's refusal

15:05

to

15:06

portray white

15:08

characters

15:09

as the premeditated

15:12

murderers and dispossessors of

15:14

Native people. This is what Hollywood is

15:16

really afraid to do.

15:18

That is such an interesting

15:20

point. We think a lot about American cinema

15:23

as a form of self-mythologizing

15:26

when

15:26

it comes to quote-unquote American

15:28

values, or certainly American

15:30

history,

15:31

but there's almost like a self-infantilizing

15:34

that you're getting at. Their agency

15:36

to carry out these genocidal crimes

15:39

is not

15:40

being shown in a full-throated

15:42

way. Is that what you're saying, Liza?

15:44

Yes, and I'm dying to know Robert's stuff,

15:46

too. He's nodding a lot,

15:49

and probably has a lot to say.

15:52

The part of the agency, too, here, that's

15:54

really particularly disturbing was the

15:56

idea that I think the film

15:58

portrays

15:59

know what was going on. They didn't know. They

16:02

knew people were being killed. And that somehow, the

16:05

one scene where they say, we would have

16:07

gone out and killed these people if

16:09

we just knew who they were. But

16:13

I think that they did have an awareness of what was going

16:16

on. It wasn't that they needed to somehow figure out

16:18

who are these individuals who

16:20

are killing us. It's look at the system

16:22

that's in place. And then somehow William Hale

16:25

is enlisting all of the white people

16:27

from the Osage Reservation at the time. All

16:29

of them seem to be in the know that all of this

16:32

is going on and the Osages don't know. Listen,

16:34

any reservation community ever been in, it's

16:36

not as though that the white people in that

16:39

community are more clued in to what's happening

16:41

in it than the Native people. I mean,

16:43

that goes back to the sort of Du Boisian double

16:45

consciousness, right? You say like Native

16:47

people living in those environments, they have to

16:50

have a

16:50

double, triple, quadruple consciousness

16:52

of the world around them, right? So

16:55

I think that people had a really strong awareness

16:57

that you see this embrace in the film of William

16:59

Hale

17:00

and never sort of somebody rolling their eyes

17:02

and going, oh God, this guy, right?

17:06

And why not that?

17:08

Yeah, that was something that felt missing for me with

17:10

the film. I think it also indicates a

17:12

gap in perspective, but also

17:14

in lived

17:14

experience. Like if you've never really had

17:16

the back channel in that kind of way, then

17:19

why would you put it in your film?

17:21

Another question for you, many critics

17:23

and viewers, even those who appreciated the film

17:26

still felt like the Native American characters deserved

17:29

more screen time, especially Ernest's

17:31

wife, Molly, played by Lily Gladstone. Crickets

17:34

have also noted that in their depictions, the Osage

17:36

characters still felt like they

17:38

fell into the same stereotypical

17:39

pitfalls for Native American women, their

17:41

victims or love objects. And this is a

17:43

characterization that's not new and unfortunately not uncommon

17:46

in American cinema. How can we sort of break

17:48

out of that

17:50

kind of characterization? Narratively, what

17:53

would you like to see done differently to

17:55

break out of that

17:57

while still telling a true story?

17:59

Great question.

18:00

I think this is not the movie to show that native

18:02

women are powerful, right? And I don't

18:04

know how you could take that story

18:06

and sort of say, oh, native women are,

18:09

you know, leaders. I don't know that this would

18:11

be the right movie or the right story

18:13

to tell us to show that native women are strong and powerful

18:16

leaders who are articulate

18:18

and bold, which native

18:20

women are. But if

18:22

you had found other ways to connect it to the present and

18:24

sort of show those stage women who are

18:27

leaders, who are articulate and

18:29

on the front lines of fighting for their nation,

18:31

you could do it this way. But

18:33

I think we have such a long way to

18:35

go with representations of native women. But

18:37

I do think it's bound to

18:40

Hollywood's refusal to

18:42

let go of the white hero

18:44

trope.

18:45

Hmm. Hmm. A lot of

18:47

times people think that the way to combat a

18:49

film that they don't like is to make a better film and that can

18:51

sometimes be helpful. But even

18:53

thinking about film itself as a medium and what

18:56

it's built on and what the industry around it is built

18:58

on, it's kind of antithetical to telling the kind

19:00

of story that it seems like that

19:03

I know I want to see. Right.

19:05

And that it sounds like you all want to see as well. Yeah.

19:08

This conversation reminds me of when people talk about

19:10

museums and how to decolonize them.

19:12

You know, there's never a thought for, well,

19:15

are museums inherently a colonial institution

19:18

and are they like redeemable? I'd

19:21

have to ask the same question with film. Right.

19:24

You know, you've given film 100 years to tell the

19:26

story of cowboys and Indians. Is

19:29

the film industry taking its job

19:31

as a storyteller really seriously or

19:34

has it relinquished that role

19:36

to commerce?

19:37

Because entertainment means murdering

19:40

native women and men

19:43

on screen and you're going to eat popcorn

19:45

and laugh. And somehow that's

19:48

what America is ready to pay money

19:50

for and what the industry is ready to

19:52

invest millions of dollars in. Then

19:54

that to me is a sign of maybe the

19:56

film industry

19:57

is irretrievable at this

19:59

moment.

20:00

Mm-hmm. How do we make the media

20:03

better for Native people? The one thing

20:05

I would say to everybody who's listening is you know

20:07

The one thing you can always control is what you're watching

20:10

and one thing sometimes the best thing to do

20:12

about bad media

20:13

Is to turn it off hmm and to turn

20:16

off the television You may want it to get

20:18

better, but you can always turn it off and

20:20

say there's got to be something better to do With my time

20:23

than watching this

20:25

Robert,

20:26

Nancy, Liza, thank

20:28

you so much for joining me today This

20:30

is a dream of a conversation and I'm

20:32

really grateful that I got to unpack it

20:35

with you all. Thank you so much Well,

20:37

thank you, Brittany. Thank you all so much.

20:39

Thank you, Brittany. I really appreciated

20:41

our talks

20:43

Thanks again to Robert

20:43

warrior

20:45

Hall distinguished professor of American literature

20:47

and culture at the University of Kansas

20:49

and Osage Nation citizen, dr.

20:52

Liza black associate professor native

20:54

American and indigenous studies and Cherokee

20:56

nation citizen and Dr. Nancy

20:59

Marie Miflow gender studies

21:01

professor at UCLA and

21:03

Fort Sill, Cherry,

21:04

Cauliflower warm Springs Apache

21:06

citizen

21:15

Hey Brittany,

21:18

hey Brittany, hey Brittany.

21:23

Hey Brittany, this is Christina in DC I'm

21:25

a producer for code switch here at NPR and I've

21:27

been following the story about Congress censoring

21:30

representative Rashida to leave

21:32

over her comments on Israel and Hamas and

21:35

I'm wondering what your reaction

21:36

was to that It was a really big

21:38

deal in Washington. Thanks.

21:40

Oh my gosh. This is the first time I have gotten Hey

21:44

Brittany from a fellow colleague. Hello, Christina

21:47

Thank you so much for calling

21:49

in with this question because it has been on

21:52

my mind I mean normally when you

21:53

guys call me up, I got the answers

21:57

But today

21:57

I honestly just

21:59

have More questions.

22:02

So for those of you don't know, censuring

22:04

is, according to the US Congress website,

22:07

a formal statement of disapproval

22:10

in the form of a resolution that

22:12

is adopted by majority vote, which

22:14

is what we saw happen with Representative

22:18

Talib. The question I keep

22:20

asking myself though is like,

22:22

what does it mean that the only Palestinian

22:24

American in Congress right now has

22:27

been censured?

22:29

Representative Talib has been calling for a ceasefire.

22:32

And a big issue for Talib's opponents is

22:34

her use of the phrase from the river

22:37

to the sea, which is a reference to the land

22:39

between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean

22:41

Sea, where Israelis and Palestinians

22:44

live. The phrase has been

22:46

a rallying cry for Palestinian self-determination

22:49

we've heard at protests around the

22:51

world. Many historians and scholars

22:53

have pointed out

22:54

that the phrase's history dates back

22:56

to the 1960s and is based in

22:59

Palestinian

22:59

liberation from the government rule of Israel,

23:02

but also Jordan and Egypt.

23:04

And it doesn't necessarily

23:05

call for violence. But

23:07

recently the phrase has come under fire,

23:09

and some

23:10

Jewish and pro-Israel communities interpreting

23:12

it as a genocidal chant. A

23:14

few weeks ago, the phrase was labeled as anti-Semitic

23:17

on the Anti-Defamation

23:18

League's website. Talib

23:20

says

23:20

she uses it in the spirit of peace

23:23

and coexistence and has repeatedly condemned

23:25

Hamas and the October 7th

23:27

attack. And even taking

23:29

all that into account though, Talib is not the

23:31

first or the only congressperson to ever use

23:33

language or take a stance that

23:36

their colleagues disagree with that kind of comes with the job.

23:39

It makes me think of something that I heard from Representative

23:41

Ken Buck, a Republican from Colorado,

23:43

who opposed the censure proposal

23:46

against Representative Talib. He

23:48

said, it's not our job to censure

23:50

someone because we don't agree with

23:52

them. But even if we take a look outside Congress,

23:55

right, in the past few weeks,

23:57

people all over the world have been calling for a ceasefire.

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