0:00

Welcome to Glad We Had This Chat

0:02

with me, Caroline Hyrons. It's your one-stop

0:05

shop for all things skincare, beauty, and

0:07

beyond. I

0:09

am so thrilled to introduce my second

0:11

guest this week, all as part of

0:13

our backstage special. With a hairdressing career

0:15

spanning nearly five decades, his

0:17

pioneering work has graced the cover of Vogue over

0:20

200 times. A

0:22

true hair genius, he is without

0:25

a doubt the most influential name

0:27

in British hairdressing. Please welcome Sam

0:29

McKnight. Sam, thanks for

0:31

joining me. Thank you for having me. I'm glad

0:33

it's not too sunny out. Because you

0:35

wouldn't be here, would you? You'd be in your garden. No, I'd

0:38

still come. I'd give up the garden for years. Yeah.

0:41

Maybe not a good tulip planting day, though.

0:44

No, well, that's over. But it's a good time

0:46

to be planting all the perennials now. They're mine

0:48

rotted in the rain at the weekend. So, you

0:50

know, we'll have to start again. Can

0:52

we just talk about the gardening? I mean, I haven't

0:54

even, obviously I have a nice list of questions and

0:56

I know your history and stuff, but where did the

0:58

gardening come from? Was it literally just like

1:01

a refuge from your day-to-day life, which

1:03

must have been utterly mental? Yeah,

1:05

well, funnily enough, I used to live

1:08

in Maida Vale and I used to go

1:11

and have a deck chair and

1:15

do a little book reading hour or two

1:17

in the sun in Regent's Park at the

1:19

end of a nice day after work or

1:21

whatever. And I used to love that. And

1:23

I'm in the Rose Garden, you know

1:25

that little bit? Yeah. And I

1:27

started thinking, oh, I wouldn't mind a little garden on my own

1:29

because I was on a top floor flat, which I loved. And

1:32

I think old age kicks in. And

1:34

I started thinking, oh, maybe I'll look for a house with a

1:37

garden. And I ended up finding a

1:39

massive garden attached to a

1:41

house. And I

1:43

took the plunge and got it. And that was 13 years ago.

1:47

And it's been just in the most incredible

1:49

13 years. It's been

1:51

amazing. Because you are kind of known

1:53

as well in the industry among peers and

1:55

stuff as Mr. Gardening. I mean, it's literally

1:57

your thing. A lot of people follow you

1:59

on Instagram. It's not for hair. anymore is

2:01

it? It's literally pictures of flowers. Yeah, right

2:03

although there haven't been many this spring because

2:05

it was terrible but I think for me

2:07

you're absolutely right it's it's

2:09

the refuge. I get

2:12

asked this question sometimes I say it's gardening

2:14

is solitary whereas I'm surrounded by

2:16

loads of people loads of egos all day

2:18

long and we love it because we all

2:20

feed off each other and it's fantastic but

2:25

I don't want to go to a restaurant at night I don't

2:27

want to go out with people at night I mean I mean

2:29

I mean God forbid. I spend my life in clubs. A club

2:31

God forbid. I can't even imagine that now and

2:33

I think the the gardens my new

2:35

nightclub I guess but

2:38

it's just me on my own and the flowers don't talk

2:40

back. Yeah and they don't have an ego. Don't have an

2:42

opinion. And you don't have to brush their head. Absolutely. You

2:44

don't have everyone going just can I just

2:46

have a quick touch up while you're there.

2:48

I don't have the time of the patience

2:51

how long was that your life for in

2:53

terms of that intensity of shows and shoots?

2:56

I started doing photo

2:58

shoots with Vogue in 1977 so I don't

3:00

have many I

3:02

mean yeah almost 50 years now really

3:05

yeah so I'm still you know still do shows and

3:07

shoots and but I don't do as many as I

3:10

used to because we've we kind of switched our focus

3:12

on to products and since the

3:14

pandemic when the traveling stopped I

3:16

kind of liked that yeah I like it and I

3:18

took that as a bit of a bit of a

3:21

sign from whoever

3:23

sends us signs and I just took

3:26

that as an opportunity really yeah just

3:29

take care of myself and take care of myself.

3:31

Just take your foot pedal a little bit so it doesn't mean

3:33

like you know people say oh when you're gonna retire and I'm like

3:35

what would I do? Oh my god the

3:38

horrible R word. Anyone I

3:41

know who retires they don't really live much longer.

3:43

Like why would you stop? Yeah my

3:45

dad would look at that. I think

3:47

you can slow down. I think that's

3:49

the key it's not even so much slowing down it's

3:51

the doing it on your own terms. You make your

3:54

own decisions you're not at the back and core of

3:56

a magazine or a designer or

3:59

whoever. a celebrity, you

4:02

do your own thing in your own time. Yeah. And

4:04

then the other stuff you can slot in. And you

4:06

can I mean, I'm lucky to have had a great

4:08

career and I can. I

4:10

do have the luxury of choosing what I

4:13

do. And I have the luxury of saying

4:15

no. I think when you're young at the beginning, you just can't

4:17

say yes to everything. Of course. That's the key, isn't it? Yeah.

4:20

Of course. And and then getting older

4:22

and being I'm 69 yesterday. And

4:26

thank you. And the

4:28

retirement world is just not in my vocabulary, really. Don't

4:31

even know how to pronounce it properly. No, I don't

4:33

think it's. Do you think that's

4:36

something different in the creative world than in the sort of

4:38

traditional corporate world? Because most people I know in traditional corporate

4:40

jobs can't wait to get out. Listen, if I

4:42

was in that kind of world, I'd probably be

4:44

the same. And if I worked, I mean, my

4:46

my mum worked in a grocery. I'm

4:48

on the co-op till she was 60. Yeah,

4:51

I should be even her. She

4:53

didn't really want to retire. She wanted to do part time, but

4:55

they couldn't. And I think I think I've got it in my

4:57

genes. I've got the work ethic bred into

4:59

me. Yeah. But I think if I was in a

5:02

job, I listen, I used to be a window cleaner.

5:04

I used to work in a sock factory. If I

5:06

was still in those jobs, I'd be willing to retire.

5:08

I'd be well gone. Yeah. So

5:11

I'm lucky. We had Val Garland on

5:14

who is that woman. Val, she does make

5:16

up, I think. Oh, that one. Yeah. And

5:19

she was a riot. I mean, we were

5:21

she had us in stitches. But one of

5:23

her memories that she shared was a

5:25

show she did with you with Vivian Westwood and

5:28

the brief was horses. And

5:30

she said that she just went, how

5:32

am I going to do horses? And

5:35

I said, well, it's easier for Sam because he can just do a main.

5:37

Right. And she went, I said, oh, you can do it if

5:39

you want. What am I going to do with horses? When

5:42

you think back, is there

5:44

one particular designer who shows you always look forward

5:46

to? You always like, oh, I can't wait for

5:48

this. I mean, there's three.

5:50

Go for it. There are three.

5:54

And one is definitely Vivian. And I was

5:56

working with Vivian back in the

5:58

early 90s when she first. I met

6:01

Vivian properly at Kinky Galinky nightclub

6:03

and we were worse for wear.

6:05

And they were aligned on the

6:07

floor. Why were you at Kinky Galinky? It was

6:09

the most amazing club Kinky Galinky, one of the most

6:11

amazing clubs you've ever been to. It was fantastic. And

6:13

this was 1990. And

6:16

she asked me to come, her and Andreas asked me to

6:18

come and do the show in Paris. They were shown in

6:20

Paris. Off I trotted. And

6:23

then I spent the last, well, the

6:25

last however many years doing Vivian shows

6:27

with her. And many, many, many with

6:29

Val. Oh

6:31

my God, we had such fun. There was one

6:33

I remember in particular where Vivian showed us a

6:35

drawing of a man. It was

6:38

like a 17th century drawing of a man running down

6:40

the stairs and his hair was on fire. And she

6:42

said, well, that's what I'd

6:44

like for the hair. And Val's looking at me

6:46

thinking, okay, where are we

6:48

going? I think we're gonna get the lighter

6:50

fuel out. And anyway, we

6:52

dyed hair like flames. And one

6:55

of the amazing things about Vivian was she would sit

6:57

in the chair and Val would do her makeup and

6:59

I would do her hair the

7:02

same as the models in the show. And sometimes she would

7:04

actually get on the runway. We did

7:06

one show where we put, we

7:08

got the rubbish out of the bins in

7:11

the office when we were doing the look

7:13

for hair makeup. And we made, we sewed

7:15

them together onto hair bands and things and

7:17

pinned them in the hair. And that was

7:19

the look of the show. It was the

7:21

beginning of the, the very beginning of people

7:24

recycling, talking about it. And

7:26

she wanted to make this big statement. So

7:28

she would like biscuit packets, things like that.

7:31

We didn't take the dregs. We took the-

7:33

Something that was cleaning. The drive. Yeah. And

7:36

bits of old hair extensions.

7:39

And Vivian, I've got the most amazing

7:41

film on my phone in Vivian walking

7:43

in the runway with bits of sort

7:46

of paper and things like that. And

7:48

she just had the absolute total commitment.

7:51

And she was,

7:53

Val and I understood her, sort

7:57

of, she'd go off on a tangent.

8:00

She'd want the hair like this, but like this,

8:02

but like that, and the makeup maybe like that.

8:04

And quite often just before the girls went on

8:06

the runway, she'd just take her hand, she'd smear

8:09

the makeup across the face and mess

8:11

the hair up. But you're kind of prepared for it. You

8:13

knew she was gonna do it. All the assistants who had

8:15

never been there before were kind of chainsaying the floor. And

8:18

Val and I are just so used to it. I

8:20

love working with Val. Yeah, we've had a lot, a

8:22

lot, a lot of laughs. Most of

8:24

which I'm sure can't be. And you should know that's what a

8:26

lot of it is all about. Yeah. Is

8:29

having fun. Because let's

8:31

face it, I think that's missing a lot in

8:33

fashion these days. It's a lot

8:35

of big money and seriousness. And

8:37

I think we're missing, we're

8:40

missing the point sometimes. It's about, it's not

8:42

just about looking good. It's about feeling good, right?

8:44

And having a bit of, I don't

8:47

know, a bit of lightheartedness. I think

8:49

that's why Tilbury have done so well. Because

8:51

she's mental in the best way. Doesn't

8:54

give a fuck. I mean, she just is Charlotte,

8:56

right? So that's what they've managed to capitalize. I

8:58

mean, the ad she did on her Insta recently,

9:00

where she goes, join me darlings, and then goes

9:02

to do a cartwheel and obviously switches to a

9:04

gymnast doing it. And then she bounces up and

9:06

goes, darlings. And I'm like,

9:08

there are certain people in this, you will never

9:11

see doing anything like that, you know? So

9:13

Vivian's one. Like Vivian and Charlotte,

9:15

and like Valerie, like individual

9:18

people like that. They're committed.

9:21

They're committed to doing whatever

9:23

it is they have to do. And they

9:26

really enjoy it. They

9:28

were balanced. So what's, Vivian's one.

9:30

You have three. Oh, Vivian, Carl,

9:32

Chanel and Fendi. Oh, now you're

9:34

gonna get me now, Carl. And

9:37

I had 12 amazing years. I was at

9:39

52 when I first, because

9:42

I'd worked with Carl a few times before. And then

9:44

I had a gap, where

9:46

the people I, Val

9:49

and I worked with Nick Knight for many years. And

9:51

then Nick took a year off to do a book

9:53

at an exhibition. So Val and I were like, oh,

9:56

oh, what are we gonna do now? Carl

10:00

asked me to do a job and then the next

10:02

thing I was doing the shows and that's the beauty

10:04

of this business. You never know what corner it's going

10:06

to take. You have to say yes. You

10:10

can't hesitate. You have to take the opportunity. You have

10:12

to grasp the opportunity. So

10:16

I went on to have thinking I was doing a couple of

10:18

jobs with Carl because he did the photos. He

10:20

designed the clothes. He was

10:23

just all consuming. It

10:25

was committed. It was the most

10:28

amazing 12 years because

10:30

I was no spring chicken. It

10:34

took a lot of my time and it was a

10:36

lot of travel back and forwards to Paris. But how

10:38

amazing to get that in your 50s and 60s. I

10:41

mean incredible. The

10:43

other one who I'm still working with this

10:46

day is Driz van Noten who

10:48

is a very, very completely

10:50

different person

10:53

committed the same way in a very

10:55

different way. Very Belgian. He's

10:57

a very different aesthetic. But

11:00

his vision is all about

11:02

the details. So

11:05

it's not the big fancy show like

11:07

Vivienne or Carl and the sort of

11:09

attention grabbing. We would sometimes do a

11:11

gold leaf parting. We would

11:13

sometimes dye some

11:15

hair pieces in the same patterns of the clothes and

11:17

just going to fit them under the hair. You

11:20

had to kind of look twice. We use a

11:22

lot of feathers as sort of

11:24

underneath the hair. We did

11:26

really, really beautiful, beautiful, beautiful details for

11:29

Driz. And so I've

11:31

been really lucky to work with

11:33

a broad spectrum of amazing committed

11:35

creators. I can't imagine what you're... It

11:40

all rubs off. It just rubs

11:42

off. But that creativity just... If it doesn't rub

11:44

off, you're not doing the wrong job. You're in

11:46

the wrong job. I can't imagine

11:48

what your archive is like. Have you kept

11:51

anything in terms of like... I've kept everything, yeah.

11:53

I mean, I've just had it all out of storage.

11:55

It's in the top floor of my house. I don't

11:57

know what to do. There's a lot of it. probably

12:00

need to go to a museum, I think. But

12:02

I did a book about eight years

12:04

ago of a retrospective. And

12:08

when we actually got all the plastic boxes

12:10

of magazines and things like that, we had

12:12

40,000 images. Jesus.

12:15

It'd go down to 350, I think. We

12:18

managed to get it down to, I think, 900 in the end. You

12:20

can't go. I mean, who do you drop? You know,

12:22

you're like, yeah, no, that's no, you mean. I can't

12:24

lose her. Well, the funny thing is you have them

12:27

in emotional attachments, a lot of them. But when you

12:29

start going through them, there's no hair in that one.

12:31

No, there's no hair in that one. No, no, no,

12:33

this one's too dark. You

12:35

can't really see. You know that? It's very quite easy

12:38

to get it. But getting down to the last couple

12:40

of thousand is because you're

12:42

emotionally attached to the day and

12:44

to the people and to the people in

12:47

it. And some of the team might

12:49

not be with us anymore. Or

12:51

we all might have been having a really

12:53

bad day that day and something happened. And

12:56

so you have that emotional attachment

12:58

to every single image

13:01

that you worked on. There's something you'd forgotten about. And

13:04

yeah, but you know what was really nice? I had

13:07

to contact everyone to get permission to

13:09

use the images. So I was contacting

13:11

people amazingly on Instagram.

13:13

Oh, wow. The wonderful tool of social media, which

13:16

when you use it properly is really incredible. It

13:18

is a tool. And it's brought me in touch

13:20

with loads of people that I would never have

13:23

ever been in touch with again. It's been lovely. It's been great.

13:25

It was a nice experience. I think you're right, though, in

13:27

that it needs to be in some kind of a museum, because

13:29

when I went to see the McQueen exhibition

13:32

at the V&A, I had tears in

13:34

my eyes. I mean, it was phenomenal.

13:37

I couldn't. I'm not big in

13:39

fashion. Because mainly I've been 5'10", 5'11",

13:42

I shrunk an inch with the last kid. 5'10", 11-ish. And

13:47

then couldn't afford high-end fashion and wasn't

13:49

the size for it. You

13:51

can look at it. And I could look at it,

13:53

but I only really got into looking at it as I got

13:55

older. But with McQueen, it was,

13:58

and I don't really do art. I'm always

14:00

a joke, I'm a peasant, you know, I was making bow-lock, I was

14:02

like, my husband's the arty one, I go, that's nice, and he'll be

14:04

like, well, actually what they're kind of trying to construe, and I'm like, whatever,

14:07

right? I'm kind of joining you on that. Yeah.

14:10

I'm just, you know, but the

14:12

McQueen exhibition really brought

14:14

home to me how important it is that people in

14:16

the creative world keep their archives. Like, just

14:18

look after their archives. It's

14:20

hard to just keep closing though, mine is

14:23

photos. I have a great wig,

14:25

I have an amazing collection of classic wigs

14:28

we've done in shows and things, but

14:30

most of them are, we've recreated

14:32

them, because we haven't got

14:34

room to keep, we just

14:37

don't have room to keep all that stuff, but mostly

14:39

what I have is, you

14:41

know, pictures, magazines, and tear sheets, but it's

14:43

a lot. And I think there's a massive

14:46

collection of fashion imagery

14:48

there from mid-1970s to now, so.

14:53

What's been sort of some

14:55

of the most iconic shoots that

14:57

you've done that people would instantly know the shoot and

14:59

not necessarily who did the hair or the makeup or

15:02

what the dress was or anything like that, but they

15:04

would know the image. Probably a

15:06

princess Diana one, because I worked with her for

15:08

seven years, and there's one where the first day

15:10

I met her, we're

15:13

doing a shoot for Vogue with Patrick de Marchelier,

15:15

and we didn't know it was gonna be her, this sort of blaggy

15:18

blonde, comes bouncing up the stairs. They didn't tell you? No,

15:20

but we were doing a few people, we didn't know she was gonna be

15:22

one of them. See, I was living in New York

15:24

there, and I wasn't really, didn't really know much

15:26

about them, because I wasn't

15:29

really phased away. Also, she was so charming and

15:31

funny and lovely, and

15:35

did whatever you want, and she was

15:37

great, straight away. So

15:41

they put her in a strapless

15:43

white satin couture gown, and

15:47

Patrick was the first person to

15:49

really kind of take

15:52

unroyal pictures of her, apart

15:54

from the paparazzis. He

15:56

just said, oh, and his English was

15:59

really bad. and I would translate. And

16:01

you don't know, sit down, sit down.

16:04

So she sat on her chair. No, no, no, on the

16:06

floor on the floor. And she's kind of like, what, on

16:08

the floor and this and that. You

16:10

sit there, you sit there, you sit there. And he kind

16:12

of disarmed the way he got his image, was

16:16

he would be a bit vague like that. Suddenly,

16:19

there's this amazing picture of, I think

16:21

I was probably translating

16:24

his instructions. Even

16:27

his friends, you couldn't understand. And

16:29

she was laughing and I've got as a

16:31

fridge maker now, as well as where she's got

16:33

tiara on. And I'd made her hair look short,

16:35

even though it was big and fluffy. And

16:38

that day I cut her hair after that

16:40

and then she was sure I'd. Anyway, that's

16:42

probably the most iconic one. And then the

16:44

one where Naomi fell off her shoes, which

16:47

I'm hoping is gonna be in this exhibition. It must

16:49

be. It must be. It must be. It's got to

16:52

be. I remember Yasmin Le Bon and I were watching

16:55

the very small 1990s monitor.

16:59

Probably black and white backstage.

17:01

And yeah,

17:03

it's probably a Blanton show. And

17:06

so we seen Naomi and I saw the

17:09

ankle go. Yeah, it goes out. Yeah, you

17:11

can see. And she fell. And

17:13

everyone's kind of worried about the ankle. And I was

17:16

thinking, please don't let the wig fall off. Because

17:18

I saw the wig wobble like that. And my eye was

17:20

on that. But she was amazing. She

17:22

bounced up, smiled, bounced up and off she

17:25

went. And then, you know, that's why they

17:27

get the big bucks. That's why they get the big bucks. That's

17:29

why they get the big bucks. This episode is

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off your annual subscription. More details

18:21

in the show notes. Do

18:30

you find now that it's obviously because you can

18:32

pick and choose your work, what do

18:34

you find yourself gravitating towards? Do you prefer doing

18:37

one thing over another? No, I still love to

18:39

still do a few shows and I still

18:41

do shoes. I did a shoot yesterday. I

18:44

think it's the people that I go

18:46

to. I go to people that I'm going

18:48

to have a nice day with. Who needs

18:50

the drama? I've never been the creative

18:53

that thrives on stress,

18:55

negativity and torture. As

18:58

soon as I sense the torture, I'm not

19:00

coming back. See ya. I'm just not coming

19:03

back because that's normal. And I know other

19:05

people work well under those conditions.

19:10

I just shut down. Who has

19:12

the time? I just think, oh God,

19:14

please stop it. Who has the time?

19:16

No, leave that at home. But I

19:18

get some people do, it's not for

19:20

me. So for me, it's about, well,

19:22

who's going to be there? Who's doing

19:25

my job? What's the job? What

19:27

is it? Give me all the details. What's the job? What's it for? And then

19:29

I'll let you know. What's the weather going to be like? Am I going to

19:31

be in my garden? And how much are they paying? Yeah.

19:34

Show me the money. Yes. I'm at the show

19:36

you the money stage. That has a lot to do with

19:38

it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How did

19:41

you start as a hairdresser? You have

19:43

to bear with me on this one because it wasn't like it

19:45

is now then. My

19:47

first show I did, I think was for the

19:49

Emmanueles. Wow. I

19:52

worked in Molten Brown. Molten Brown

19:54

was the coolest

19:57

hairdresser salon at the time in South Molten Street at

19:59

the moment. The building still has a kind of

20:01

got a curved windows in the middle of the street.

20:04

Absolutely divine. It

20:07

was all natural products. They were the first to do

20:09

that. They did

20:11

makeup, macro biotic food

20:14

on the on the top

20:16

floor. So you had to sneak your bacon sandwich in

20:18

the back door and hide in the basement. And

20:22

which we did a lot. Sorry, Michael and Caroline, but

20:24

we did as if they didn't know.

20:26

And I was

20:30

told to go and do this fashion show. And

20:33

I had done a couple of shoots before where

20:35

I was absolutely terrified, but I kind of

20:37

loved it. Anyway, because the person who was

20:39

doing the show couldn't do it. I think it was

20:41

probably Kerry Bourne, because Kerry were there then. And

20:45

I got sent with one assistant, I think there were eight

20:47

models, and we had to

20:49

do Shignon's. And basically that was a

20:51

show that eight models, they changed probably

20:53

six times. Run them off. I mean,

20:55

I watched what people were doing. I

20:57

would watch what Kerry was doing in

21:00

the salon. And but

21:03

then after that, I was pretty much I

21:05

learned my trade for three years. And then

21:07

but we did you train in Scotland? I

21:10

trained in Scotland. And then actually

21:12

we three of us from from

21:15

a salon, but someone unknown reason

21:18

just decided one night to hitchhike a lift to London.

21:20

And I think we had a five reach in our

21:22

pockets. And the dream, right?

21:25

Yeah. And never really went

21:27

back then ended up working in different salons. I

21:29

worked in Elizabeth Arden. I worked in a few

21:31

other places. Miss Selfridge was my first one. Miss

21:33

Selfridge was on Regent Street, the smaller brush. And

21:35

they had a salon at the back. God, I

21:37

loved it. And it was great. And

21:40

it was called it was called hairworks.

21:42

It was called. Um,

21:45

could be a lot of fun. You have a lot of fun working

21:48

in hair salons. It's hard work. Yeah, but my god, you

21:50

have a lot of fun. And you know what I would

21:52

say on this? If any kids are listening that want to

21:54

get into the business? Yeah, yes. And I know that the

21:56

hard work, the brush in the floors, the dealing with people,

21:58

the shampoo, it sounds really daunting, but

22:01

you know what? You will never laugh as

22:03

much at work as you will in a

22:05

hair salon ever. I guarantee you that. So

22:08

anyway, I digress. What was that

22:10

talking about? Yeah and then so

22:12

then I saw all

22:15

the vote covers were being done by someone

22:17

at Martin Brown. I wanted to be there. So

22:19

I was probably quite ambitious. Got

22:22

the job, flagged my way into that, then started

22:24

doing shoots. Then in 1980 Michael,

22:27

who owned the salon, decided we were all on

22:29

shoots too much. We weren't making money, rightly so.

22:31

Get back in the salon and I didn't want

22:33

to do that. I'd got the bug

22:37

and I left the salon and everyone

22:39

said I was absolutely nuts. Yeah it's

22:41

gone really badly for you. I would

22:43

never work because there wasn't there

22:45

wasn't the work, but there wasn't the work. But

22:48

the timing was right because ID

22:50

opened later that year and then the

22:52

face and then things just started to

22:55

expand and then suddenly London Fashion Week.

22:57

Lynn Franks was my first agent and

22:59

Lynn started London Fashion Week. So we

23:01

were all there. It's all

23:04

about the timing as well, isn't it really? It's

23:06

all about the timing and then I moved to

23:08

New York and was there

23:10

when all the supers were

23:12

coming on the go-sees. I

23:15

say we grew up together. I was ten years older than

23:17

them, but we did. We

23:19

kind of matured together if you like. With

23:22

the supers? Yeah. Was there anyone in

23:24

particular where they walked in and you went

23:26

Jesus Christ? Naomi. Yeah.

23:29

Because she was 15 and she

23:32

turned up. That was in London.

23:34

We were doing a shoot. I remember we were

23:36

doing a shoot for I think it was Elle or

23:38

Bazaar. No it was it was Bazaar because Elle hadn't

23:40

started yet. Harpers was harpers and Queen it was called

23:42

then with Martin Braiding the photographer and

23:45

the girls would come

23:47

on something called a go-see where they come and see

23:49

the photographer, get a poweroid done. Well she arrived

23:51

at the

23:53

Albert Memorial where we were shooting and she

23:56

had little clips

23:58

of ribbons and other people. or something. She was

24:01

coming from school. I think she had a school blazer on. She

24:03

may correct me on that, but I think she had a school

24:05

blazer on. And she's

24:08

like, oh, my mum don't know I'm here. My

24:10

mum don't know I'm modeling him. I got off

24:12

the bus. The energy was amazing. And I

24:15

mean, she had no makeup or hair done. And

24:17

she got in front of Martin to take a

24:20

few plays. And we were just like, wow, wow.

24:23

She's amazing. Because she has that dancer

24:25

thing about her as well, you know,

24:27

sort of the limbs. And I

24:30

mean, six months later, she was off. She

24:33

was in New York, Woking My Cell. And yeah,

24:35

that was quite extraordinary. That was amazing. To witness

24:37

and just be like, yeah, you can just see

24:39

it happening. Linda took

24:41

a bit longer. Linda had

24:44

to work much harder for it in the beginning.

24:47

Linda had to persuade people that, but Linda learned

24:49

her craft really, really well. And then in the

24:51

end, Linda became honestly the best, but

24:57

she became sort of

25:00

unmatchable really, because she

25:02

could focus on flicking

25:05

her hair, throwing a handbag, kicking

25:07

up the heels and holding the

25:09

skirt and smiling all at the

25:11

same time. She really, really honed

25:13

her craft, Linda. They all brought

25:15

something. I mean, Tatiana was just

25:17

that haunting wolf eyed, just

25:22

incredible, that stare was just so beautiful.

25:24

And just such a lovely, soft, gentle

25:27

person, never elbow her way into

25:29

the front like the other. And

25:32

always gently in the back, but really, really,

25:35

really intense. That intense glamour was just,

25:37

it was glamorous, wasn't it? And Cindy

25:40

was just all American, Cindy,

25:42

divine. Have I missed anyone else in Tatiana

25:45

or Linda Christie? Oh my God, of course.

25:47

I'm Christie of the Eternal Beauty. I worked

25:49

with her recently and it's just extraordinary. But

25:54

she's aging really well. She's

25:56

just aging so beautifully. And

25:59

she's still really naughty. Mary Greenwell,

26:01

who's another one of my amazing collaborators

26:03

and very good friends, 40 years this

26:05

year. Mary

26:08

and I had dinner with all of them in

26:10

London when they were there here in September. Oh

26:12

my God, it was just, it was so nice

26:15

because we all hadn't been in the same room for probably 30

26:17

years, 25 years. Where do

26:19

you manage to pull off that dinner, number one, without

26:21

the paps now? We went to Claridge's. Oh.

26:24

We went to Claridge's. Of course you did. Yeah, we went

26:26

to Claridge's. Private room? No, no, no,

26:28

we're in a nice table in the back because

26:30

they're all from the days when they all stayed

26:32

in Claridge's. So it's got a little special. Yeah.

26:36

Claridge's always a special place

26:38

for me. I love Claridge's. Yeah, me too. I mean,

26:40

if I could live somewhere, money was no object. I

26:42

know. Claridge's to me feels like

26:44

nothing could go wrong there. And

26:46

I've never had a nasty experience with a member of staff. You

26:49

know, obviously I'm fortunate in that before I'm doing what I do

26:51

now, I'd get invited to a lot of things with rest and

26:53

all sorts of stuff. And if they said

26:55

Claridge's, I'd be like, I'll go, what is it? I'll

26:57

go, what is it? It's amazing. When

27:02

I worked at Molten Brown, we used to have,

27:04

because it was round the corner from Claridge's, so

27:06

we used to have this little ritual where once

27:08

a month, if we

27:10

had some good tips, on a Saturday

27:13

morning we'd come early and have breakfast

27:15

at Claridge's and we just thought we

27:17

were the bees knees of Claridge's breakfast,

27:19

amazing. But a bunch of hairdressers having

27:22

Claridge's breakfast. Yeah, so Claridge's always, it's

27:24

always held that spot for me and

27:28

through that supermodel era, that was the hotel of

27:30

choice. Do you have any sort of memories

27:32

of experiencing people and doing their

27:35

hair and then being, I'm

27:37

not gonna ask you who, but being astounded that they

27:39

went on to be successful. So the opposite where you're

27:41

a bit like, God, they must have been a grafter

27:43

or they're just good on camera or if

27:46

you had basically just been around where people

27:48

have got to where they are because someone

27:50

has spotted something and gone, that,

27:54

we need that on a camera. Yeah,

27:56

quite a lot. Oh really? Yeah.

27:59

I'm so glad I brought it up. But usually we're meeting people

28:01

when they're 15, 16, 17. And

28:05

people, and I honestly think

28:07

it's too young. I think it's too

28:09

young, I think there should be an 18 because

28:13

women's, men's, women's more like, no. Their

28:16

bodies, their faces, I mean, you know,

28:19

their faces can change unrecognizably

28:21

in two years. The bodies change

28:24

and the whole sort of thing

28:28

about being slim to fit in the clothes. And

28:31

then suddenly one season they've got boobs and they

28:33

don't get booked for shows. And it's psychologically damaging

28:35

and I've seen it a lot and it's horrible.

28:38

It's really, it's not that it's not, it's

28:41

not wrong, but they feel that they've,

28:45

they take it personally. Yeah. How dare I

28:47

grow boobs? Well, they don't

28:49

understand it. It's hard to understand rejection.

28:51

They're kids. Yeah, they're children. They're children,

28:54

you know? So I've seen a lot

28:56

of that and it's not nice, you

28:58

know? But it's

29:01

ruthless. I mean, it's ruthless this business.

29:03

The thing is, if

29:05

you are going to be in it and if you

29:07

are going to go on to be really successful, you

29:10

need to develop a hard skin. And

29:12

I don't, you know, I don't know, I

29:14

don't know how you change that

29:16

because... More guidance, regulation type things.

29:19

Well, listen, I'm a

29:21

fan of regulation for the moment. I'm

29:23

a fan of the idea of

29:26

regulation for, certainly for

29:28

the creatives in the fashion

29:30

business because there is none. No, and they

29:33

get... And it is an absolute, it's the

29:35

Wild West out there. I think models are

29:37

much more, much better taken care of now.

29:39

Because Erina Connor and a few other people

29:42

set up a... I can't remember what it

29:44

was called, the model something? It wasn't like,

29:46

it was the model, it was like

29:48

a hangout type thing, but it wasn't. No,

29:51

but they set some ground rules about being

29:53

fed on shoes and absolutely rightly so. And

29:56

I think we need a similar thing for the creatives

29:58

because it's... It's too open

30:01

for abuse now. Going back to what I was

30:03

saying earlier about the business being

30:08

really small when I started. Well, the business

30:10

was really small. There was

30:12

no regulation. There was no need for any regulation

30:14

because there was no abuse of anyone because there

30:16

weren't that many jobs. But now the business is

30:18

huge. I

30:21

mean, we were listening to how big the beauty industry

30:23

is yesterday at the British Beauty

30:25

Council. 24 billion it brings in.

30:27

And a huge part of that

30:29

is the backstage thing, because

30:32

all those brands are promoting

30:34

their products. But

30:36

there's no regulation about how hair and makeup people

30:39

are treated, how much. I've

30:41

been at shows when they would fit. They'd think

30:43

they could fit 150 people into a room this

30:45

size, which

30:48

would be totally illegal to transport cattle in. With

30:51

no heat, no water. It

30:55

got a little better after COVID. And I'm not

30:57

saying this is the norm, but

30:59

it happens too often. And

31:01

it needs to change. I think it needs

31:04

to change. And I think

31:07

a lot of people are expected, especially

31:09

at the beginning, to work for free.

31:11

I was going to say, it's all

31:13

for exposure. For exposure. Exposure doesn't pay

31:15

the rent. It's editorial. But there is

31:17

money. There's more money in the fashion

31:19

beauty industry than there's ever been before.

31:23

But it's all stuck at the top, like a

31:25

lot of other things. It needs

31:27

to filter down. It needs to filter down. You know? What

31:34

made you go from using everyone else's product

31:36

on shoots to thinking, I

31:39

could make my own stuff here. I could do this.

31:41

Well, I consulted for various brands over

31:44

30 years and really

31:46

enjoyed that. And

31:49

I did a little line of products with

31:54

a manufacturing company that were in boots in

31:56

the 90s. And they were really amazing. And

31:59

then. I

40:00

find as I get older, I'm very

40:02

conscious of repetition. I

40:08

don't want to keep doing the same thing. That was partly

40:10

doing the products because we had done a big exhibition at

40:12

Somerset House. We did a book and we did the products

40:14

all at the same time. So

40:17

it was really busy for a few years. And

40:21

so doing those things was very, very different to

40:23

what I usually do. And I

40:25

think continue doing all that. I

40:28

did a TV series, which

40:30

got one series, but

40:33

I had a great time doing the

40:35

big blowout. It was a really amazing

40:37

experience with incredible people. I'm sad that

40:39

it didn't work out because I think

40:41

it could have done really well if

40:46

they'd given it a bit more chance. I've

40:48

loved doing that. And I'm loving doing

40:52

all my content, shooting all my content in our studio

40:54

and being a part of this. There

40:57

are about 10 of us in the team. So we're

40:59

now a part of this brand, which is a whole

41:01

new thing for me too. And we have new products

41:03

all the time. We have new product development all the

41:06

time. So there's new things coming all

41:08

the time. That keeps it fresh. I

41:10

think so, no? I think the repetition, I

41:12

think when you start at my

41:14

age, I start thinking, no,

41:17

I've done that before. I don't want to do that again. I don't

41:19

want to, it was kind of, at

41:22

one point to me, I didn't

41:24

realise it till COVID.

41:28

I realised that I felt like I'd been on

41:30

a hamster wheel of September

41:32

it shows, it's this, it's that. And my

41:34

whole life was ruled by the fashion calendar

41:37

and the fashion world. And

41:39

after COVID, I thought, oh, it

41:42

doesn't have to be like this. And

41:44

I really enjoyed being in my home and

41:46

my garden for all that

41:48

time with the nice weather and stuff.

41:51

And I just, I

41:54

thought, yeah, there's got to be something else. It

41:56

gave me time to rethink, yeah. Digressing

41:59

slightly.