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Hey, Hotties! Today we have a guest who has been held as magical by the New York Times and amazing by Wayne Brady.

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Trained as an opera singer and theater performer, she's graced iconic venues like the Hollywood Magic Castle, the Lincoln Center, and Carnegie Hall.

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Welcome to the show, Cassandra Ruiz.

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Is this so strange? Because we speak every day, almost.

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We whatsapp a lot, multiple voice notes.

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And my main reason for having it on is because I feel like we have so much in common, but there's been so many things that are like, me too.

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this too. But we're just living completely different lives in different states.

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I thought it would be cool to share our different perspectives on the same stuff.

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We're both magicians, but we both do a lot of other stuff.

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Can you share your journey, like even getting into entertainment?

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So not just magic, but like first live performance.

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Sure. So my dad was actually a actor.

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So I kind of had a little bit of that in my bones and my mom is a visual artist, she paints.

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So they were always super supportive and they were like, what do you love?

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So they put me on stage just for fun to see if I would like dancing when I was three and bam, that was it.

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Apparently I said, I don't wanna leave.

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And my mom was like, okay, apparently she's a performer, cool.

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So that was my first little.

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before I entered performing. And then from then on, was just, I did all the theater things.

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Anything anybody would let me do, whether it was singing, it was dancing, it was acting.

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I was in every class doing all of the theater stuff.

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And then as I got older, I focused more heavily on singing.

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I went to college, I went to a conservatory for music where I studied opera and musical theater.

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And then I graduated school and found magic and was like, wow.

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I could tell my own stories while doing magic and also incorporating my background of theater and singing and all of that.

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So that was kind of the thing that brought me into magic, but it's been a lifelong journey of performing.

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Did you straight away, like as soon as you found magic, incorporate magic with the singing or were you, did you stop that, do magic and then combine them?

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So I think it was at first little bits here and there because I actually got my start as a magician doing restaurant magic.

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So I was doing scrolling magic close up at tables at a upscale restaurant in Manhattan.

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And then as I was doing that and I was watching other people and kind of getting what my inspiration was for magic, I was watching the old David Copperfield like doing the grand illusions, but also storytelling.

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And I think that's when I said to myself, okay, I can still tell stories and I can still sing, but I can add magic in.

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So now it's not just a magic routine, but it's a theatrical experience.

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So definitely magic kind of came first and then I brought in the rest of my skills.

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And how did you find that? Cause this is one thing that we do have in common, not the singing.

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Obviously I grew up dancing. That was my, that's all I wanted to do.

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And then I found magic and gave up.

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dancing, I like, I wanna be taken seriously in magic, so I shouldn't dance.

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so I just shoved it in a drawer and then now I'm like, bringing it back, putting things together.

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So how was that for you when you started combining singing and magic and putting that out there?

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How was the response to that? Lay people were a little bit more like, fascinating.

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Like you can sing and do magic, especially the opera at the same time.

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Wow, it's so cool. And then the magicians were like, this is not a thing.

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This does not work. other people have tried it and failed, you're going to regret this decision.

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So there have been many times over the course of my career where I thought to myself, am I making a bad life choice?

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But as I've plugged away over all the course of the years, I've realized, especially in doing magic for lay people and in performing on cruise ships and things like that, and really having that exposure to thousands of people at a time and getting that time -tested result, people do enjoy it.

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and love it, and so it was sticking to my guns and not letting past people or experiences affect me that has led me to keep doing it.

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But it has definitely been a head game of, should I give up?

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No, don't give up. It's always stick with you. It is difficult, especially when, I mean, you know a lot more magicians than I do, or spend more time, I think, with magicians than I do, because you live right near the magic castle.

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I've definitely like shut myself away and be like, I need to figure out what I'm doing without any like outside influence unless people that know me and understand where I'm going or what my journey is.

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Like we talk all the time about magic, but it is difficult when you're surrounded by that.

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And it is, as we know, there's a lot of men, there aren't as many women.

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And there are certain times where I feel like people want you or expect you to take a certain path.

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and you need to learn things in a certain way and you need to go about things in a certain way because the people before you or around you have gone about it that way.

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And I think one of the things, especially with women, is that we are coming at magic.

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It doesn't matter if you purely do magic or you do magic mixed with other things.

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I feel like we naturally come at it from a different angle anyway, just from being women.

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I think slowly, slowly, slowly.

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It's now not being more accepted because I mean, you just got to do what you want to do and not be affected by other people in the business, male or female, because I think, you know, there's also the other side of it as well.

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It's like, all women magicians for all the other women magicians.

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And it's like, don't get me wrong. I will support women in magic, whoever they are.

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But I don't love every woman in magic, just like I don't love every man in magic.

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Like everyone has their tastes, right?

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So moving on from magic as well.

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another thing we have in common, the old ADHD.

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You were actually the one who said to me, maybe go and check that out.

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Maybe you were very nice about it. It was like, just, just maybe, maybe look into that.

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Maybe see it. I was like, okay. And you were right on the money.

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and I didn't find out till I was what, 33, 34, I think, but it's interesting when you find out.

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how you realize the people close to you are either, they also have ADHD or their neuro diversion in some way.

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And that's one of the things that has kind of brought you together without you even know.

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I mean, I didn't know, I didn't have a clue, but I wonder how did your diagnosis come about?

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How was that experience for you? Cause I know for me, when I found out in the beginning, it was like, this is great.

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Now I know now I can like not fix, but help certain things that I struggle with, now I can find the right information, the right research.

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And then you, well, for me, I crashed hard and was like, my gosh, there's so much information.

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There's so much out there. How do I, it's too much.

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Now it's just overwhelming. So I'm interested in your kind of journey with that as well and how you dealt with it, like the good and the bad.

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You're right. It is a thing that once you find out, you're like, I feel like I have some sort of control where there's been a lack of control.

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We never really fully have control, but anyway.

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We try to control things. Exactly.

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It's like, we're going to make it work. No, I can't make it work.

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But basically for me, I had been struggling with a bunch of things, but the main thing that brought me to the ADHD diagnosis was my husband has ADHD.

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And I was talking to my therapist and I said, hey, sometimes I find it a little frustrating because I don't know how to communicate my needs.

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And, you know, I don't know if they're understanding what I'm saying.

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How do I do that? And she said, well, have you ever read a book about ADHD?

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And I said, no. And she said, why don't you read this book?

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It's by one of the leading experts on ADHD.

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And the book is divided kind of in half.

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The first half talks about male experiences with ADHD and generally male presenting ADHD and then female presenting ADHD.

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So this is not a blanket statement for all people that have ADHD, but generally women tend to be the more inattentive type or a combination of hyperactive and inattentive.

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I was never a hyperactive child.

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I was never hyperactive physically.

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I didn't realize you could also be mentally hyperactive.

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That I am. But everything's been in my brain, always.

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So I've just been very inattentive, like, whole life.

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Where's Cassandra? She's on the moon. Nobody knows, because I love to fantasize and be my own head.

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So I'm reading this book, and it's like, girls with ADHD tend to fantasize and be in their own head.

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I'm like...

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It's like, they tend to have trouble in school because they can't focus.

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They can't do homework, they can't do this, that, and the third.

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And as I'm reading this, I'm saying, no, this is me.

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And that's when I took it back to my therapist and went, question mark, this is me.

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And she goes, surprise, now you know.

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So I immediately went and saw a psychiatrist.

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because I thought about this for a second, about medication, which is a whole different journey.

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And I said, you know, do I want to be medicated?

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And then I thought I've lived my whole life feeling like I'm climbing through sand.

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So why not make my life easier now if I possibly can, like anything that will help me.

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So I saw the psychiatrist, I was diagnosed officially, started medication.

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And the day I took that first pill, I was terrified.

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And then 30 minutes later, I was in tears from just the sheer joy of feeling like all of the chatter in my brain had quieted to a slow, like a very low hum.

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And I could finally focus and I could, I just felt freer.

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I felt like I was able to move in the world without feeling confined by my head.

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And after I did that, I went through a long period of time where I kind of felt like Alice in Wonderland falling down the rabbit hole of just my whole life looked so different.

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And I kept thinking about all the ways in which everything could have been easier and all the ways in which I wouldn't have had all the struggles I had in school, in my career, various things had I known this information earlier.

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So like you, I consumed every bit of information I possibly could because if I can control it, it'll be great.

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It was super helpful and I'm grateful to this day that I did that for myself and I finally made peace with my ADHD and I've started to see all the benefits to having ADHD.

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But that was why too, when I came to you and I noticed so many parallels and I was like, I'm gonna very gently bring this to your attention because I know how jarring it can be.

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to then be thrown into this new reality.

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And I was like, if I can soften that for anyone in the future, I'm gonna try.

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So I'm glad that you felt like it was gentle.

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It was very gentle. I mean, you know me, I'm very much a just like, tell me how it is type person.

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No, you were very kind about it because I didn't know anything about it really.

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Like it was one of those things that I might have known a tiny, tiny bit about it from school.

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but it was always in like this super negative, always boys, it never girls, that were mucking around in class and distracting everyone else and not settling and not working.

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And that was it. That's all I knew about it.

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And I don't even think I knew that it was ADHD or like that word.

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I had no clue, which I guess is so good about nowadays is there's so much content online, YouTube, books.

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I mean, that's definitely something I did. I would just type in ADHD, how do I do this better?

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Cause it is, you know, it is overwhelming because there's so much, you know, I'm not, I'll read a book, but like so many books that are written about ADHD are not written for people with ADHD.

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It's this thick, but tiny text and you're like, there's just, can I just, where's the bit I need right now?

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Like I can't change or make better all these, all these things that I want to do.

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Let's do it one at a time. So that was the only thing that was like, God, I wish I was like, not an encyclopedia, but almost where you could just go, this one thing, here's five things to try to help that situation.

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And maybe that is a thing that will come out in future.

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But no, you did send me a lot of really helpful like YouTube clips and TikTok clips that made it more fun at least to be like, okay, I can try this thing or I could, you know, so it wasn't so like, getting like punched in the face and be like, okay, all right, what else, what else, what else?

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Because it is a lot and there obviously is not as much information or research on women with it, which is why so many women are finding out in their 30s, 40s later.

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Well, they didn't think that women, was possible for adults to have it until the 2000s.

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And they didn't think it was possible for women to have it period until very recently.

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So that's when everybody's like, everybody has ADHD now.

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It's like, no, actually, we just have the awareness that more people have it than you thought.

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Is that, it's the same thing with like, a lot of terms are thrown around these days, not thrown around.

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I think a lot of times it's just now we have the terminology for it.

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Yeah. Even when, you know, talking about narcissism, which is another thing we've discussed a lot about.

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Like now I like knowing what that term means and the times you've experienced it, same with ADHD, just so many things.

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It is a great time to be learning about this stuff because I can't imagine going through all the things, you know, in the past couple of years, years ago.

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Like I can't imagine where there's just no nothing, no internet to like search or no, you know, it just so, it's so much more accessible these days, which makes it so much easier.

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And definitely. has impacted me on how I then interact with other people who I go, might, there might be something there and it's not my business, but at least then if you're meeting someone for the first time, you can kind of adapt a little to the way you are interacting with them.

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yeah, it's a party.

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It's a fun one most of the time.

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There are so many great things about it.

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For me, hyperfocus is a major thing.

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mean, procrastination is also a thing. It's like two ends of the same scale.

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it's like, okay, how can you hone it? How can you use that?

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Because it's like, if you can hyperfocus on the right thing.

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And there's so many celebrities and really successful people in business that do have it and are now sharing, yeah, I have this thing.

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And it's like, that's how you managed to work.

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60 hour weeks and get this thing done because there was nothing stopping it.

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Your brain wasn't going to let you stop.

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is, know, as we know, burnout is also a thing.

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It's true. Which I have to say, one thing that you have taught me over the past couple of years is like, just take a day, just be nice to yourself.

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Look at all these things you did do. Here's the list.

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And like, just take a day. It's fine.

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You can take a day off and not feeling guilty.

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But going back to lovely Ben.

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I actually didn't know that, I did know he had HGHG, but I didn't know that he knew and then you found out about yours.

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Like I didn't know the order of it, which is really interesting.

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Cause as far as I know, I've never dated or been married to someone who does have it.

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I don't think, which is probably why I have two failed marriages.

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I'm not gonna lie. Cause it's such a big part of you.

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And if you don't know, like... the simplest thing that you said, even with communication and being like, this is how I feel.

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Like I don't think until the past couple of years, I could have even like sat down and been like, this is how I feel.

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It was like, I don't know, I'm just tired. That was my answer to everything.

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So with that, and obviously for anyone that doesn't know, Ben is also a magician.

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So how have you found that?

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I guess even more so with magic, do you find like, cause sometimes you work together, sometimes you work separately.

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And how do you find that dynamic from on like a day to day basis when you're either creating or working together, traveling together?

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How, how is that for you? Cause I know I love that like jamming, being able to talk about an idea with someone who a hundred percent gets the fact like is in magic at least and gets that.

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But obviously you're both very different in your content and what you come up with.

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So how do you, how, how is that dynamic for you guys?

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Like on a daily basis? It's interesting because just our ADHD alone and how it is very different.

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He presents a little bit more hyperactive than I do.

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And with that comes different challenges.

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So his brain, feel like is a little bit more, I think of my brain like a spider web.

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His is like a spider web that's also like connected to other things.

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When we're creating, it's really cool when we can let ourselves relax and just like throw ideas out.

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That's when it works the best. But sometimes just like we were talking about earlier with magicians having like more preconceived stuff, Ben will handle things differently because he grew up in magic.

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So he has thoughts like that. So that brings in a structure that I don't have because my brain will just go anything's possible and like kind of vibe like that.

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This is so great though. True.

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the beginning, coming up with an idea, feel like that's so great because you're not cutting ideas and hitting the edit button straight away, which I have a problem with because I go, but how am going to do that?

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And it's like, just let it be and you'll figure it out because nothing is possible when you first come up with it in Magic.

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Yeah, it's like I think of it like, I guess it was Michelangelo when he did David and he was just chipping away at marble, right?

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You start with marble. And then like little by little, you're chipping away at it until you get the form and then you polish it and you make the thing.

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So it's like when your brain is similar, but different, you come at it from different places, but you can still vibe.

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And that's what's nice with us. Like we'll vibe and we'll talk about things.

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And sometimes he'll come up with ideas I never would have thought of and vice versa.

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So it's really nice to have that collaborative effort.

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He's more of a structured business person.

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I am. not as much that, like I need a little bit of help there.

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So that's where I like love the fact that I can turn to him and say, hey, I don't know how to, you know, handle this thing.

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And he will help me with that. And then sometimes it'll be like, hey Cassie, different.

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So that's what's kind of nice is our brain work similar, but different enough that we can fill in the gaps.

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And then sometimes there will be moments where we will cross boundaries with each other that we didn't realize in creation or even in our show like if I'm a little bit more I have to have a little bit of a visual order to things otherwise I get overwhelmed and then is a little bit more of a control chaos and so I'll have to say hey I can't really do that right now because it's taking me out of my headspace in my game so can we just keep our spaces a little bit separate so I can have that order I need and then we'll reconvene So it's finding that ebb and flow to be able to share something with a partner and know that even though we have the same thing, it's going to operate differently.

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And then sometimes irritate the other because it's the thing that's different than what you have.

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So you don't understand it. Like we talk about this in ADHD, how we have doom piles sometimes.

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And it's like all my stuff that I know tomorrow, I'm going to go through the mail and I'm going to need this thing and I'm going to need this random thing, Bob, whatever it is.

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and I'll keep it there because it's all effective and important.

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But yours is not good. You should not have a dune pile.

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Only I can have a dune pile because mine makes sense and yours is best.

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I know exactly how this is because I'm so like, everything has its spot.

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Everything has a place. Everything, you know, mostly has to be put away except the thing I'm working on because if I don't see it, it doesn't exist.

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Yeah. But if someone else's mess, which drives me crazy.

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I've got to be able to shut a door on it. Like, that's the, Yeah, I, cause otherwise I'll be working on something and it's just like, you'll just be looking at the thing in the corner.

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like, why is that one tiny thing driving me insane?

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But yeah, I saw you guys. When did I see you perform?

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Magic Castle. came in to see you guys perform.

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So it's so nice that you can both go on stage and have your own moments be a hundred percent you, not.

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married you and you know what mean and have that moment and then come together and still share magic together on stage and share that dynamic which is so different because I feel like a lot of times when you see magician couples it's not an even balance it's like one person usually the man is just so much more dominant on stage and speaking a lot more and the woman is kind of like I'm just here and it's like, but I want to know what you got to say.

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What is your like opinion on this or what it, you know, anything, just give me something.

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So it's nice that you both have that separate, but have it together, which is so much easier in the business than if you want to work together, travel together.

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It's true. No, because as we know traveling and being with someone, especially within the business is a lot.

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It's hard. It's really tough to go, what this contract for six months.

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Okay, yeah. Okay, see you in six months.

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Like we know that if you know what's gonna happen.

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So you have Latin heritage and do you find that influences your work at all?

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And if so, like in what ways or how are you trying to not use it but like it's part of you, right?

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So as we know in magic and another thing we have in common, we're not the type of people that just walk out and like do tricks.

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There has to be some give me something that's yours, like a story or a theme or something.

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So have you included that in any way?

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And if so, how and how did you find that?

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Like, how did the audience react to that?

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Like sharing another part of yourself with them?

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So that's an interesting question.

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I think there's ways in which it's overtly and covertly in my work.

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In the more covert sense, I think that I'm Sicilian and I'm Colombian.

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And those two backgrounds are very steeped in drama.

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They're both very intense and they're both very colorful and vibrant and passionate and just dramatic, I'll say it again.

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And so that naturally flows and ebbs into performing.

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And as far as magic goes, magic is central to these traditions as well.

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you know, Sicilian culture, there's a lot of Sicilian witchcraft culture, which is magic based.

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And then there's a lot of Colombians.

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We are. We like to say the inventors of magical realism, because there was a very famous author who created that idea of magical realism and magical realism is the idea.

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that magic can happen in everyday life and that we don't find it odd.

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So if you're reading a book and somebody just floats up in the air and people are like, yeah, cool.

24:54

They just float up in the air. That's magical realism.

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So the thought that anything is possible, I think is something that I incorporate a lot into my work.

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And recently, as I've been, you my father is an immigrant from Columbia.

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And as I've been reconnecting more to my heritage because it was a little bit trickier growing up Latina in this United States, especially when your parent is an immigrant, because you don't have as many people around you that you can relate to, especially where I grew up, to that culture.

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I decided to infuse a little bit more of it and celebrate it in my work.

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So for instance, I'm working on a routine where I have coffee and it appears and things and talking about, you know, the fact that we are the people that bring you the coffee, the best coffee.

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Like this is homage to...

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my father's homeland and like little, know, the costuming is bright and vibrant and colorful and rainbowy and that is very, you know, indicative of us as well.

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And then recently I told a story on stage about my father and how he grew up as an immigrant and had to learn English by watching television.

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And that is the reason why I am here and doing the thing.

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And also why I came to California, cause my dad tried to run away.

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from New York City and jump on a train and make his way to Hollywood because he wanted to be an actor.

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He didn't make it, but I did. So that's the proud tradition that I get to carry on.

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later on, people approached me that were in the audience and they were all Latino and they were telling me how it was so meaningful to them to hear these stories on stage, to have their daughters see a woman, a Latino woman performing on stage and being able to do something like magic.

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And that's what I strive to do with my work is to give the representation to these children, to these people, to this community that is my community that I never felt like I had that representation growing up because it just wasn't as readily available at that time in my life or at that time period.

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So I'm very grateful for my opportunity to infuse my culture into my work and to help spread it to other people.

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I didn't even know you could be a magician as a woman growing up.

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was like, that's not a thing. I just didn't think that was possible because I never saw it.

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So I think it's great that you're able to use your background and put that out there so that, you know, that could change a lot of people's lives by seeing that.

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Hopefully as time goes by, magic will become more and more more inclusive.

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I mean, it's getting there slowly, but as we know, it's an uphill battle.

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If everyone can do a little bit, because I feel like that comes up a lot, like, what can we do more of?

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What can we do? How can we help? I've heard that from a lot of male magicians.

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Like, what can we do? I mean, honestly, there's nothing you can really do.

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Like, yeah, we're all about more opportunities for us and things like that.

27:59

But it's more, I think, the women or, you know, anyone that...

28:06

is an, I hate to say middle -aged, white, American and male, but you know what I mean?

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Any minority to just step up and be like, okay, I'm gonna do this.

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And it's tough because I know I've hit points where I'm like, I'm done.

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I don't wanna do this no more. It's too hard.

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It's too much work. It's too much effort. I don't wanna have to always fight for what I want or the way I wanna perform or the magic I wanna do, whatever it is.

28:32

I don't want the fight. It shouldn't be that hard.

28:35

But then you realize doing it can have such an impact on it.

28:39

Whether it's one person or 101 people, it doesn't matter, but that can really change.

28:44

Not even in magic. Like that can change someone else.

28:47

Like a little girl could see you and that could be like, okay, well, I don't want to do magic, but I want to do this thing or whatever, you know, whatever it is and not feeling like restricted because of where you come from.

28:59

So on that note, has there ever been a time when you've whether it be magic or with the singing, has there ever been a time where you've been like, I'm done, I can't do this no more, I don't wanna do this.

29:16

where has, I mean, we all have those moments of like, but has there ever been like a really like specific moment that you're like, this might not be for me.

29:26

And why did that like come about? And then how did you like overcome that and be like, you know what?

29:33

gonna give it one last go and now you're still doing it.

29:35

obviously what, so yeah, what was any, anything like that?

29:39

Like the, the, the rock bottom moment to the, we're doing it.

29:44

We're peaking. It's happening. I think there were a couple of rocks in the, in the road for me.

29:51

The one of the first ones was when I was right out of college.

29:58

starting to get into magic, mostly auditioning for Broadway shows and doing the musical theater route of things.

30:05

I went through a period of immense ADHD burnout.

30:09

And I was also going through some other things that had happened.

30:13

And I don't, we haven't talked about this a ton, but I also have OCD, all the letters.

30:21

I basically tried to control my voice so much.

30:28

to the point that I lost it. And at that point, not knowing what I was gonna do with myself, I said, how am I gonna live if I can't sing?

30:37

Because my voice was everything. And that's when I became so serious about magic.

30:42

And I always say, in many ways, magic did literally save my life because I was in a very low place when I decided that I was gonna devote myself to magic.

30:53

And slowly, by... you know, working on what I was working on with Magic and rehabilitating my singing voice, I was able to come out of the other side of that, comma, however.

31:06

Just as we discussed, there are people who, and this is by no way, and form in my saying, all men in the Magic community.

31:16

There are some that were not incredibly supportive and had given me a lot of things to make me doubt myself.

31:26

And I went through a second period of why am I doing this?

31:31

I'm just putting myself through constant torture because people are slamming doors in my face because they don't think I should be there.

31:40

I mean, to be quite frank, I have literally been told, why did she accept that job when we could give it to a real magician?

31:48

And that is, you know, after 10 years of doing magic.

31:52

So that's frustrating. So at that point in my life, I had said, you know, maybe maybe I'm wrong.

31:57

Maybe this is not the thing to do and to your point about representation I also occasionally teach magic classes to children and I was teaching a group of girls magic and I had walked in that day and I had said I'm your magic teacher and they said you can't be our magic teacher because only boys are magicians and That's when I said to myself.

32:20

I have to keep doing this not just for me, but for them because the only way that they will know that this is an option for them is if they keep seeing us and we don't give up.

32:31

And so that was a really great little boost on top of what I knew I needed because I do love the career to keep going and moving forward and knowing that I didn't have to listen to what other people were saying.

32:45

That wasn't important. It is shocking that, because I doubt that was very long ago with those kids.

32:51

But that is like still a thing.

32:53

Like it does blow my mind.

32:57

Luckily, there's a lot more women doing magic on TV right now, especially the past year.

33:03

There's been a lot. So at least that is being put out there.

33:07

Unless it's, I guess, super commercial and you're seeing it on a show that your mum and dad watch or your grandparents watch.

33:16

how are you gonna see it at that young age? And up until this point too, if you look at magic kits that they were, know, parents were buying, or if you look at books, generally it was pictures of little boys with a top hat on, or little boys doing a magic trick, or whatever it might be.

33:31

Like for instance, I was in a Netflix show called The Who Was Show, and it was about Harry Houdini this episode.

33:39

And it was a show for kids. And basically they said, we want a male magician.

33:44

We want to bring him on to do a trick.

33:47

And the kid who's playing Houdini will be pretending to do the trick and the magician will put his arms through and do it.

33:53

And they'll be like, that wasn't you. That was that guy.

33:55

Da da. And my manager said, you know, it could be a woman.

34:00

And they were like, what? Yeah, we didn't even think about a woman.

34:05

What an idea. All we can do is keep putting out more and more.

34:10

content, there's actually talking about that.

34:12

There was one thing that came up the other day, random conversation.

34:15

I'm in this group of people were hanging out, having a drink and someone introduces me to a new person that joined.

34:25

And he's like, this is Chloe.

34:28

She's a female magician. And I was like, I like, I...

34:35

And I'm trying to process what has just been said and meet this person.

34:40

And I couldn't, it was such a weird thing to me because I'm like, one, my gender doesn't matter, but...

34:49

Do we need to say that? Like I was like, I don't think we need to.

34:52

But then I look at some things I post online and I always hashtag female magician.

34:58

But that's different. I feel like that's because if you're looking for me and you don't remember my name or you're looking for another woman that does magic, what else are you gonna type in?

35:07

Because you're gonna put magician because it's gonna be man, man, man, man, man, man, man.

35:11

So, you know, it's tough because it's like, but also I'm then saying it about myself.

35:19

It just is weird because I would go, here's my friend, the male magician or the male doctor or the male comedian, like in person.

35:27

Like that is strange to me.

35:29

Like maybe if it was an introduction, not in person and you couldn't see the person, maybe, but it's still like, strange to me.

35:41

But anyway, that was just a random.

35:44

Also like something that people just don't even realize is weird.

35:48

because they've never seen one before. So they're like, she's a female magician.

35:52

And you're like, I'm just a magician.

35:54

So earlier we did touch a little bit on narcissism, that old chestnut.

36:02

And it's another thing that I think I've learned more about from you over the past couple of years.

36:11

We've both shared things that have happened in our lives and relationships and stuff.

36:15

but it's another thing I never knew anything about.

36:18

And I think a lot of people didn't. I'd never heard the term before.

36:21

I was like, and I'm sharing like, I was with this guy and this thing happened, da.

36:27

it's like, it's the same thing. It's like the agency where you're like, I've got a thought.

36:33

And it's so crazy because then as I've dated in the past couple of years, because now I'm single and dating and here and there, it's...

36:43

being more aware of it to then be able to catch it earlier so that you're then not like, a year into a relationship and you're like, I've done the same thing again.

36:54

And like, I'm not saying that every guy I've ever dated has been a narcissist.

36:58

There's been some people that it's just like certain traits that I don't necessarily love.

37:04

And it's things that I wouldn't want in my partner in the future.

37:07

Because you can't control another person.

37:10

You can't control how they act, how they...

37:12

treat you, anything like that.

37:15

And then, you know, I've definitely been through a few narcissistic relationships and then been on the other side and been like a total mess.

37:24

And not just like, we broke up mess.

37:27

It's like been a couple of years and even some things now of like, I don't know what a normal relationship should be.

37:36

I saw like a little video of this on Instagram the other day when a girl was like, wait, you're not gonna text me every day and call me multiple times and like, you're not gonna be completely obsessed with me.

37:47

I don't understand like this and like, this is normal.

37:51

And it's like, no, you just don't like me that much.

37:53

Like, no, this is like, like other people, I hate to say normal, but normal people, they don't like feel the need to check up on you every day and every minute of the day and be with you all the time.

38:04

And it's a really hard adjustment and something I've had to like, take a step back and be alone for a while and be like, okay.

38:13

And like just get back to zero.

38:16

Now I'm like, okay, let's maybe start dating again and be able to now be at a place where I can recognize that energy coming into my life and be like, something feels off.

38:28

I don't know what it is. Like usually my mind can't process it, but my body will go, I don't know what it is.

38:34

don't know what it is. But, and I just go, okay, this isn't right for now.

38:38

whatever that may be and then my mind catches up in a few days and goes, it's because of this, this and this.

38:44

Which at least is better than getting a few months in and being like, no, here it is again.

38:49

Any advice or tidbits of information for anyone that has experienced this sort of thing?

39:00

Because it's not, it's a tough thing as well because the term is being used a lot online and I think.

39:06

It's the same as the ADHD thing. everyone's got ADHD now.

39:09

everyone's been through narcissistic abuse. And it's like, no, we just like know how to speak about it now and have ways of speaking about it online.

39:17

And why not share that so that other people, men and women, doesn't matter the gender, can like not feel so, I don't know, like alone, I guess, in the situation and be like, wait, this isn't just.

39:35

me and my thing, like, other people have experiences, they've dealt with it and how they've kind of...

39:42

I don't know, come back from it because at least in my experience, like I know with some of you also, like I was done, done, done, done.

39:51

Like I had no idea how to like start life again as a single person, like alone, like at all.

39:58

was like, I don't, like it was literally a step by step.

40:01

Okay, today we're getting out of bed. Okay, tomorrow we're gonna go take the dog to the park.

40:06

Like it was, it just blew my mind.

40:08

And I think that was years and years of.

40:12

that kind of, of those kind of situations and not really dealing with it and just being like, whatever, it's fine.

40:18

It's, whatever, you know, it's a breakup.

40:20

It's this, it's that, he only did this.

40:23

he only did that. And I think that's the biggest issue with, which we've kind of touched on in personal conversations that when you're not, and this isn't like to say that anyone's experience is more or less than anyone else's.

40:40

Everyone has their own. situation and everyone is different, but when you're being or experiencing any kind of abuse that isn't physical, it's very easy to be like, it's not abuse.

40:55

It's just, he just said some mean shit to me.

40:59

It's very easy to just play it off like it's nothing.

41:02

And I don't think people realize how damaging it can be because you don't deal with it, because it isn't like, until I think more recently been seen as like a big deal.

41:14

It's like, whatever. She's just butt hurt because he left her.

41:19

Do you know what mean? It's, she's just been bitchy.

41:21

So any, I've gone off on a whole 10, a little chit chat.

41:27

Anything like that would be wonderful.

41:32

it's a So welcome to my Ted Talk.

41:34

This is when I'm one day gonna get my PhD in.

41:37

Yes, 100 % should.

41:40

Because I've done so much research on it.

41:43

You know, it's funny though, the reason why I found out about narcissism in the first place was because of my mother.

41:51

And the reasoning for that is because her stepmother, and I feel okay to put this out into the world, her stepmother, though not diagnosed, I am certain is a narcissist.

42:01

And there was a lot of... difficult things that both my mother and I have been through over the course of our lives together that revolved around this lady.

42:09

And so in doing that research and then talking to my therapist, you know, I kind of found myself in therapy in this place of like, I am a problem.

42:20

I am too much and I cause too many issues for people in my life and please help me.

42:26

Like, how can I be a better person to everyone around me?

42:29

And over the course of time, my therapist was like, hey, I want you to know it's not your fault.

42:37

I want you to know you've been through some things with people giving you a narrative that is not true about your life.

42:44

You keep saying you're a problem. Whose voice is that?

42:46

That's not your voice. Whose voice is that?

42:49

And when you're forced to figure out who said that or who made you believe that truth, that's when you're able to start to break down the immense wall of lies that have been built around you.

43:03

because that's the problem. You we say to ourselves, I, that wasn't so bad.

43:09

He just did this or that wasn't so bad.

43:11

He specifically made it that way.

43:14

He convinced whoever it is that you are seeing it weird.

43:20

That's not what I meant. I wasn't meaning to do that.

43:24

I really, care about you. And so once you are so gas lit and gas lighting is becoming more and more of a common term as well because a of people weren't aware what it means.

43:36

But basically, you're being sold a lie and then being told that your truth is not real.

43:42

And that way you deconstruct your truth because the narcissist's whole point, and this is another important point.

43:50

I think we get into a place in our society, because now people are learning about narcissism, that people think narcissism equals an evil person and there is a lot of black and white.

44:03

But narcissism is a neurodivergence and additionally narcissism comes, it's a trauma response, it's a personality disorder that comes from being left to yourself.

44:19

They say that when you're a baby, if you are crying and crying and crying and no one comes to take care of you and to regulate your emotions and show you that you're safe, you have to tell yourself how to be safe.

44:33

You have to regulate your own emotions. And that apparently is how a narcissist is born because they learn that they are their only safety, that no one else is there for them.

44:42

And they're deeply insecure and they have a lot of pain inside of themselves.

44:47

So they... will find amazing, talented, cool people and be like, I wanna be like them.

44:55

So they come at it kind of from a good place of like, I love everything that this person is, but then they try to suck out everything that that person has because they want it for themselves.

45:06

And then once the person doesn't know who they are anymore, because they've lost all of that, they've given it away to the other person, then they go, I'll move on to the next and then discard and move on to the next.

45:17

and then they'll try to still keep you on the shelf and all that stuff.

45:21

I think what makes this so hard is because, again, people also don't know what the term trauma bonding means.

45:28

So, you know, the narcissist meets you and like you were saying, narcissists will be like, I love you, you're amazing, it's been two weeks but I wanna marry you, let's run off into the sunset together, and you get so filled up with dopamine, especially us as ADHD people, that's why we love it.

45:42

It's like, wow, hearts, this is amazing.

45:46

It's like every fairy tale I've ever watched, like every rom -com, it literally, like when you realize and you have all this information and then you start, I'm like, I'm gonna watch this old movie I used to love.

45:59

And you're like, what? This is so messed up.

46:04

That's who I wanted to be. Like that woman in that movie with that guy, that's what I wanted when I was younger.

46:09

And it's ridiculous.

46:11

And especially like after...

46:15

I experienced this after there was a breakup.

46:18

I met someone who I did not know was a full -blown narcissist.

46:23

I thought that I was getting my fairy tale happy ending, the guy that would say yes to everything.

46:31

Like I thought, finally through all this stuff, finally this is happening.

46:37

No, no, no, nope.

46:40

Like, and it is tough because I feel like we...

46:44

as ADHDs attract narcissists.

46:48

Because there's so much we have in common, but obviously the intent there is so different.

46:53

Like, I wanna know everything about a person and I wanna connect and speak to them a lot.

46:59

And, you know, I love that getting to know people and, you know, finding out like silly little things, the things they love, you know, how many times have I dated a guy and I find out their favorite, I don't know, drink is whatever.

47:13

And that will always be in my fridge.

47:15

They come over, it's in my fridge. And that's not to manipulate them or do anything dodgy.

47:20

It's like, that's just a nice thing.

47:22

And it's a little thing, but it's a thing that I know for me, if someone does it, it goes a long way.

47:27

If I go to someone's house, they've got diet, doctor pepper in the fridge.

47:30

I'm like, I want to marry you. That's a whole other issue.

47:35

It's so tough when you're getting all the things that you want that feel good.

47:41

It's like, you said, and than dating someone that isn't that way and it feeling so slow moving, slow paced, so like not as intense, which is so difficult.

47:57

And it's so hard when you're so like, I'd say addicted to, but I think I definitely was for a while, like addicted to that.

48:07

feeling of not knowing what I was going to get from this person, which is so messed up because it doesn't feel good to be like, then when you finally get the thing that you wanted or the thing that you were, you know, waiting for from them, like, you don't hear from them, you don't hear from them because that's the fun game after love bomb, love bomb, don't hear from them, don't hear from them.

48:27

And then you finally hear from them. You're like, and you get that hit again.

48:31

You're like, okay, everything's great again. Everything's wonderful.

48:34

And it keeps you on that rollercoaster for so much longer.

48:40

it definitely, at least for me, took a while to just be like, okay, we need to get back to calm, quiet, and being able to just be alone after that is really tough because you're so used to having someone there all the time.

48:57

And then it's like, wait, I'm in my house alone. It's so quiet.

49:00

I'm going to go crazy. And it's taken me years to be like, I actually really like it.

49:05

There's no one like messing with my piece.

49:07

Like I can just be, can, silly things that when I say them, go, that is so weird that that it's like come to this point where I'm like, you know, I get a text at 1am from a friend and it's like, who's texting me 1am?

49:21

I'm like, a lot of people, cause we all work late.

49:24

We all work late. Like it's not weird. I'm not doing anything dodgy.

49:28

So it's, it's definitely been a, a, a whole journey that's definitely not over.

49:34

I don't think you ever go, I'm cured.

49:37

Everything's great. I'm never going to feel this way again.

49:39

It's not like as you meet new people, whether it be in friendship or dating or whatever, I feel like you're going to hit those points again where you're like, this feels familiar.

49:49

This is a good thing or a bad thing.

49:53

I think we've definitely talked about it over the past couple of years when I've dated for a short amount of time someone and I'm like, are they?

50:01

I was like, I don't think they are. They seem really nice.

50:04

And it's like, there it is.

50:07

And I feel like you've probably had an inkling on a few and you're like, it's like that.

50:14

How do you tell her? How do you just, because it's like, you can't know for sure.

50:18

It's not like, no narcissist is going in and getting like diagnosed.

50:25

Like, what world is that happening?

50:28

So it's very interesting when you said about I go into therapy and like, I want to be better.

50:33

I want to do better. I want to be better for people. And it's like, we're not the problem.

50:38

Like there's things that we obviously want to improve about ourselves.

50:42

Everyone, think every good person does.

50:45

But I think because it's the only thing you can control, it's like, okay, if I could have done this, that wouldn't have happened.

50:54

was like, that was going to happen no matter what. It doesn't matter.

50:57

It's true. And on top of it, There's something with narcissistic abuse called reactive abuse.

51:03

And I was talking about this to someone earlier.

51:05

It's basically when you're, you know, the narcissist is driving you nuts, right?

51:10

And they're doing a bunch of bad things. Cause right after the love bombing stage where they hook you in and they're like, you're amazing.

51:17

Then it's the devaluation stage of like the slowly picking away at you because you know, they're insecure.

51:23

They have to. And then you get those peaks and valleys and you're on that roller coaster.

51:26

And that's how they keep you because you're waiting for the dopamine high.

51:30

So you're just like, it's coming again, yay.

51:32

And then it's like, now we're going to, but it's gonna come back.

51:34

And it just keeps you on the thing so long.

51:36

But reactive abuse is then basically driving you nuts to the point where you snap and you yell and you lose it, whatever it is.

51:46

And then they go, see, you're nuts.

51:49

Like this, you're the problem. Like this is why we have an issue because you're like this.

51:53

And then they can say to everybody, see, see what they're like.

51:57

And then you really, that's immensely, I'm the problem.

52:00

I'm the one, I do bad things, like it's me.

52:03

It's all so like mapped out.

52:08

Like it's so clear when you can see it after the fact.

52:13

But it's easier to see in other people. And that's why for me, when you were telling me things, it was easier to see that.

52:19

But when I was going through my own situation, It was not as easy.

52:23

And there were some people here and there that were like, hey, do you realize that this is not great?

52:27

And I'm like, no, it's great.

52:30

You don't understand. I know them better than you.

52:32

They're trying. They're good. And you convince yourself of the lies that they feed you.

52:38

And that's what trauma bonding is, is getting addicted, like you said, to those highs and lows.

52:44

And once you're addicted, it's hard to let go even after the relationship's over.

52:50

because you're still, no matter what, even if you knew it was terrible for you, even if you don't actually wanna be with them, there's some part of you in your brain that's like, but it was so intense and it was so good.

53:03

Sometimes, right? It was, I think I remember it was.

53:06

Yeah, and you like hold on to any good moment.

53:10

It's funny how for quite a long time, I thought I was bipolar.

53:15

because I was told I was bipolar. you're bipolar.

53:18

you know, you just go off the rails and you've got an angerish anger problem.

53:22

I'm like, I don't think I do.

53:24

Like, don't get me wrong. there times when I would like, just let things go, let it go.

53:28

Doesn't matter. It's not a big deal. This thing doesn't matter.

53:31

And then I would blow a hundred percent. And that is something now that I go, okay, I'm going to share how I feel sooner rather than later.

53:39

Even if it's a small thing and just be like, and if someone has an issue with that, then we shouldn't be together.

53:43

If I can't share. how I feel emotionally about something, then you are not right for me.

53:49

I need that space to do that.

53:53

But yeah, you realize it's like, you're digging.

53:56

You're poking me. You're like poke, poke, poke, poke, poke on waiting for me to pop.

54:00

Yeah, exactly. And that's not my fault.

54:03

That's me just going, can't handle anymore.

54:06

I'm out. It very interesting because I've only ever had this experience once and I met a girl.

54:14

a woman who had dated a guy that I had then dated.

54:20

I didn't, we very randomly ran into each other and I was talking to, we were at an event, in the like green room, and I'm talking to a friend of mine about a situation with this guy.

54:32

And I was like, yeah, it was already great. And then all this stuff happened and then he makes the plan and he cancels.

54:37

I'm like, I don't really know where I'm at because it was so good.

54:40

And he was so amazing in the beginning.

54:43

And then I see like, you know when you like feel eyes on you and you're like, why not be talking about it?

54:50

And I like look over and I see this woman looking at me and she's like, do you mean so and so?

54:55

And I was like, do you mean like so and so, you know, the so and so, da da?

55:00

And she's like, yeah. And I was like, yes, why?

55:03

Cause then you get nervous, like, gosh, who's this person?

55:07

And she's like, yeah, I dated him.

55:09

And I was like, when? And now I'm like, Join the conversation, let's get a drink.

55:15

And she's like, yeah, I dated them up until this point, which was literally, he went from her to me.

55:21

Which is like, when do you ever get to meet the one before you or the one after you and actually have, be able to have this conversation?

55:30

So I'm like, let's go. And she's like, yeah, like it wasn't really serious.

55:34

Like it was definitely a more casual thing. I'm like, okay.

55:38

But yeah, but then he would like make plans and then not.

55:41

then it was so like, Same thing, it was so great and intense in the beginning, it was amazing.

55:46

And then like, then he would just make plans and then just like not show up or just like cancel last minute or make excuses.

55:54

I'm like, then why is he even making plans? Because he did the exact same thing to me.

55:59

The difference is at the beginning, I, you know, when we're having drinks or first couple of dates, I was like, yeah, you know what?

56:06

I'm at a place where I'm ready to date someone like seriously again.

56:11

to be in a relationship or find the one or whatever.

56:15

And he was like, yeah, me too. I did the whole, he was divorced as well.

56:20

So we had that in common. We were able to share that, actually, I had trauma bonding.

56:26

And he was like, I did the rebound and the hooking up and whatever.

56:33

I did all that. And I was like, okay, a decent amount of time has passed.

56:36

Maybe this is great. Maybe this is gonna be wonderful.

56:39

And... it was so great and it turned so bad so quickly.

56:46

Which is great at least. At least it was only like a few months of my life that kind of went into this.

56:54

yeah, it was, know, then the ex was back in the picture, which I have to say at least one thing that I did do, which I think younger me might not have done, was when we sat down for a drink, this was a couple months in, and he was like, so.

57:10

my ex wants to come and like move to Vegas and da da.

57:14

We broke up because of long distance. And I remember being sat at the bar with like one leg on him and having a drink.

57:21

And I literally was like, my body, not even my mind processed what he said.

57:25

My body just went, nope, nope, Right here.

57:30

And he was like, and if I didn't know at the time, like now looking back, like, this should have been the little like ding ding moment was when he was like, really?

57:40

And I was like, you just told me your ex is about to move here to possibly be with you.

57:46

And the fact that I moved my leg off you, you kidding?

57:51

And I was so torn because I felt so much for him so quickly.

57:55

And it was like this, I literally had to have a fight with myself because part of me was like, but we want what he is giving.

58:03

I want that. I want the good feeling.

58:05

want, he was so like, I don't need a lot of like verbal validation, but he was saying the right things.

58:13

Yeah. That I was like, I really like that.

58:16

I really like that he supports this and da da.

58:18

And then I'm literally in a hotel in the casino bar.

58:25

And I'm like, you have to leave.

58:27

My body's going, just leave, just leave, just leave. And I'm like, yeah, I think he's like, should I walk you to a car?

58:32

I'm like, I think I'm good. And then I literally sat in my car and was like, I And I felt so upset and so angry.

58:41

But then I was like, and then we ended up meeting up about an hour later in the same place and had a conversation.

58:46

Cause I was so mad. I was like, wait, there's a time to let it go.

58:50

And there's a time to be like, what, what, what happened?

58:55

Why would you, and I get like, you know, at the time I was like, well, you know, like maybe he's meant to be with his ex.

59:03

I try to, you know, I believe in love and like people being together and you know, I would never want to get in the way of that with someone else.

59:10

Ever. Like I've dated people like in the past that had kids with their past relationships and I go, I would never get in the way of that relationship because you know, my mum and dad were never together.

59:21

It was just, you know, they were always separated.

59:23

so as a child on that end of that, it's like, you just see things differently as an adult.

59:29

But it just...

59:32

I was so torn. was like two different parts of me.

59:35

Like I wanted to be angry and be like, you and blah, blah, And then the other part of me is like, no, but we really like this one.

59:42

Like this one we really like. And we think he's a good guy.

59:44

like, of all the things he did in his life and work made me go, how, how can you be doing this in your work life and be this way?

59:56

You know, and there's so much more to it. you know, I can't, do that so much.

1:00:00

But it's just like, so now I realize I need to listen to my body before I listen to my head.

1:00:07

Because my head will talk, it's like, like, because in half the time, I don't think it's even my voice in my head.

1:00:14

I think all these voices I've heard over the years that have been like, it's not that bad.

1:00:19

it's, know, he's just, but he says this, or at least it's not that.

1:00:23

And now finally get into a point where my body can go, if my body goes, ugh, I'm like, Okay, we did, we need to listen to this.

1:00:32

And this means getting away and like not allowing someone else to have an opinion or talk me out of however I'm feeling and being, I have to go alone and think about that and be like, what is happening to your body right now?

1:00:48

What is going on? Because I haven't gotten to a point where it's instant, like body to head, but I've gotten to a point where it's body, I sit, I'm alone and I go, okay.

1:00:57

what is going on here and knowing that I need that and maybe that will always be the way who knows.

1:01:03

But at least, you know, it's so hard when you're stuck in a space with someone and it's just like, and you're like, can't, it's like, and mine and I'm like, and mine, you know, when someone's talking to your own thoughts get, you know, muted.

1:01:18

Yeah, it's so tough. yeah, I mean, We'll see.

1:01:25

We'll see what the future holds. It's true.

1:01:28

To that point, like, it's hard because a lot of times the point of the abuse of a narcissist is to separate that mind and body connection because if they can confuse you enough, they can keep you from ever really seeing who they are because that's the biggest fear.

1:01:50

The biggest fear for a narcissist is for you to remove that mask and then to know that they are the insecure, weaker person that they know themselves to be.

1:02:02

I even, was telling somebody this earlier, but my ex who I believe was narcissistic, he at one point, I thought he had self -awareness.

1:02:13

Like he would say to me, but.

1:02:15

I think you need to move on. I think you need to find someone better that's not gonna hurt you because I'm a bad person and it's my fault and da da.

1:02:25

And then I went to my therapist and I was like, but I think he had some self -awareness because he said, and she goes, yeah, and then did you say, but no, you're not a bad person and I don't think that about you and I love you.

1:02:35

And I said, -huh. And she goes, yeah, that was the point of that speech was to get you to say that.

1:02:41

And I was like, got it.

1:02:44

He got exactly what he wanted.

1:02:47

Exactly. it's building us, building that self -awareness to know that when the next one like that comes in and we go, my body's telling me the truth.

1:02:58

Like whatever you're telling me, even if you're trying to convince me that this is not the truth, I know myself, this is the truth.

1:03:04

Yeah. It's definitely that actions speak louder than words on like a really like massive level, like ridiculous level of like, They're very, very good at saying what you want to hear or what you need to hear to get what they want.

1:03:22

They're experts. I'm not, you know, I'm somewhat smart in some areas, but I feel like I'm all right.

1:03:31

get by. I feel like I don't always articulate how I feel or what I need in the best way.

1:03:40

So that's like my own thing that I have to work.

1:03:43

But it's when someone is very clear, it's like, okay, like I know what I need to do.

1:03:50

Like it's just react, you you just react. Okay, great, great.

1:03:52

It's okay. But it's very interesting because that the same guy, we actually had a conversation a few weeks after that happened.

1:03:59

Things didn't work out with the ex, whatever. I'm like, yeah, you just wanted to hook up and then she was off again.

1:04:05

Like I feel like you just wanted that freedom, which is fine.

1:04:08

Like at that point we were still, it was still kind of new like.

1:04:13

It's tough, right? It's tough when you go, well, it hasn't been very long, but we're seeing each other a lot.

1:04:18

We're really going quickly. So it's hard to be like, well, you know how it is.

1:04:24

And we had a conversation and I think I said something along the lines of, know, I don't think, I think I was expressing how he was making me feel about everything.

1:04:37

I was like, well, this has made me feel this way.

1:04:39

And that's why, you know, I reacted in the way I did and that's why I just walked off and left because I didn't just well I didn't just walk off I told him where I was going I was like you know I'm out I've got a I'm gonna go deal with this feeling and he did not like the fact that I was like holding up a mirror and being like these things that you did made me feel this way and it's one of those what do people say I've had it said to me all the time the I'm sorry you feel that way yeah like It's not an apology, it?

1:05:14

Like, no, you did that.

1:05:16

Like this is, you know, you may not like how I feel.

1:05:20

You may not have intended to make me feel that way.

1:05:23

If we're going, you know, benefit the doubt, but you did.

1:05:26

So just learn to say sorry.

1:05:30

It's not that hard. I'm British.

1:05:32

I apologize more times in a day than anyone, like than any other, like.

1:05:39

place. Like it's just in us to like, you you bang into it, you know, they bang into you.

1:05:43

sorry. What? didn't even. Anyway, it's, yeah, it was very interesting that it got turned around really quickly.

1:05:51

And then I felt guilty. what?

1:05:54

I do nothing wrong. I was lovely. I did.

1:05:58

I like, my God. And some of the silly things that I like then got him like a birthday cake when we'd broken up and I can't.

1:06:05

It was just, I mean, we did.

1:06:07

we did date for like one more date and I was, at least it was cut shorter than a lot of the past ones.

1:06:13

And I learned a lot, but it's, it is just, I don't know.

1:06:19

It's, it's nice to be on the other side and at least be able to recognize it, like you said.

1:06:25

And I've even had to do this very recently with a friend, a male friend who he, the text that she came through, I was like, I think I'm dating a narcissist.

1:06:35

And I was like, let's get on a call, what's this about?

1:06:39

And it was crazy because I'd only ever experienced it up until that point with a man and never a woman, at least knowingly.

1:06:51

he was his straight guy, Daniel girl, and he would share the things she would say.

1:06:56

And it's the same thing. It's like, it's the love bombing and it just...

1:07:02

Thank goodness. It's done. It was it was like a week and you know, it was a very quick in and out situation and then she like reached out to His dad like on Instagram.

1:07:11

There was a whole thing going on like just any which way to like stay in someone's life because he Very quickly cut it off and was like, mmm, it's not for me.

1:07:25

And I think what was great about that conversation though was that He would text me what he was gonna text her You're not being clear.

1:07:32

And you what do mean not being clear? I was like, be clear and precise.

1:07:36

Don't be like, well, I don't think we should be doing it.

1:07:39

No, no, no, no. Be very direct, yeah.

1:07:42

Just be direct because otherwise she's going to text you again tomorrow and the next day.

1:07:46

And that's not even a thing to do with like narcissistic situations.

1:07:52

life, that's a good thing. Just in life, just be direct because I feel like...

1:07:57

I learned in that moment a lot and he did too because he's like, wait, I've said this to other women in the past.

1:08:01

I'm like, yeah, you wonder why they're still like blowing up your phone and like not understanding.

1:08:06

Like just be direct. Like for me, I'd rather someone be brutally honest.

1:08:10

Hey, this is not working out for me.

1:08:12

I don't need a reason at this point at 30, whatever I am.

1:08:16

Like if it's not working for you, don't waste my time.

1:08:19

No, like I'd rather, you know, I, I feel bad for anyone that's like goes on a first date with me because it's like Here's everything.

1:08:28

Here is so much. We're past too much information.

1:08:30

Just like, here's all the information. You let me know how you feel about all these things because I don't see the point of stretching out and us wasting each other's time.

1:08:39

Because there's certain things people are just not gonna be on board with, right?

1:08:42

Or whatever it is. They're not. They're not the right person.

1:08:46

Exactly. So it's just brutal honesty.

1:08:48

Love that. It's so good. And it's such a hard thing to learn when, especially like, I know for me, I come from a place of being more of a people pleaser.

1:08:56

And so I was like, no, I don't want to upset someone.

1:08:59

But I realize now that that is a recipe for disaster, especially in relationships.

1:09:04

like, you're not very clear about your boundaries and you're, even with the most well-meaning person that is not maybe a narcissist, it's just a person in your world and they step on your toes in whatever way.

1:09:18

If you keep resenting it and pushing away, you're just gonna.

1:09:22

react later and then they're gonna be confused and nothing positive is gonna come out of that.

1:09:27

So clarity is immensely important.

1:09:31

It's a hard practice when you're not used to it, but it's so important.

1:09:35

Yeah, I think that made me think of one thing that you are the first person that's done this with me and now I like make sure it's on all my friendships is when I'm like this thing is happening.

1:09:47

I'm upset or I'm angry. I'm stressed or whatever thing is.

1:09:50

You always ask if I want advice or support.

1:09:54

So if I want you to just be like, screw that guy and da da, or you want like, if I want actual like a thought or like some kind of, have you thought about it this way?

1:10:05

Or is, you know, what about this?

1:10:07

Check this out. And you always ask.

1:10:09

And I now do it with not just friendships.

1:10:13

Like if I get into another relationship with someone, I would always do it.

1:10:16

And I think it helps so much.

1:10:19

because I feel like I've had so many, like mini arguments with people where they're like, well, I don't need to fix it.

1:10:25

I just want the, you're right, or that sucks, or whatever it is that makes you go, yeah, yeah, I was right.

1:10:34

Like whatever it is, you're cut you off on the freeway and you just need someone to be like, well, screw that person for doing that.

1:10:43

That's all you need sometimes is someone to be on the same page with you.

1:10:46

And that's You don't always need like fix, fix, fix.

1:10:50

Exactly. it's, although usually if I'm WhatsApping you at 7 Minute Voice, no, it's like, this is advice time.

1:10:59

This is not validation time.

1:11:01

This is what do I do here? What's that?

1:11:03

We're usually just like, you could just tell me.

1:11:07

Tell me what to do. I've got to do it now.

1:11:10

But it's true. feel like when that comes, me doing that and learning that is a...

1:11:17

byproduct of feeling controlled.

1:11:20

I think it's, you know, even in a friendship where they love you and they want to help, when you're talking to somebody and they're like, but I got the solution, here's the solution.

1:11:35

There have been so many times where that has instantly made me feel like you didn't hear what I said.

1:11:39

I don't know that you know what I'm talking about.

1:11:42

So it's like, if you can come at it from a like, hey, Do you actually need me to be futzing around in your life and fixing things or do you want me to just be like, yeah, you go, you do the thing.

1:11:54

I think that that's, it's so tricky because I think the way it boils down for anything in life is communication is key.

1:12:04

The more you are clear, the more you tell people how you feel.

1:12:07

Like even now I've just started doing things where I'll flag Ben, like if I'm in a mood or something and be like, hey, sorry, I'm in a mood.

1:12:15

I love you, I'm sorry.

1:12:17

I'm being a little bit just iffy and I will apologize again later, but just so you know that's where I'm at and I need you to kind of not challenge me at this moment.

1:12:33

Like we can help you go playing field when I've calmed down.

1:12:38

Very nice way of being like, don't do anything that's gonna set me off.

1:12:42

Just go be calm. just go be in the next room, don't touch anything, don't break anything.

1:12:47

I'm hungry and I'm just gonna yell to yell.

1:12:51

So like, if you just go sit in the other room, we'll be out of the fields of fire.

1:12:55

Like, you're good.

1:12:58

You know that, like you've got into a place of like knowing to just, you know how you feel, you can express it, he gets it, got it, you know.

1:13:05

So it's, and even that takes work to get to that.

1:13:09

place and be like, I like to recognize your own feelings and not just be like, I blew too late.

1:13:15

Yeah. Sorry about that. What I was always doing was repressing, repressing.

1:13:19

It's like, no, no, no, I'm the problem, the problem, the problem.

1:13:22

And then finally I blow and then it just be everything that I've ever been bothered about ever.

1:13:28

And then it leaves people feeling like, why, where did that come from?

1:13:32

So if you say it in the moment.

1:13:35

then people can follow you and adjust behavior accordingly.

1:13:38

Additionally, to go back to an earlier point, you said, they say that when you're in a narcissistic relationship, generally, because that kind of relationship is what you've had for so long, that's what feels safe.

1:13:56

So anything that feels like, this is like, more healthy and it's slower moving, it feels not right.

1:14:07

And I think that was also something too, I ended up having to learn is like, this is a person that's on your team.

1:14:14

This is not a person that's like, you know, going after you.

1:14:18

So it's gonna feel different. And that is, that is even better than what you thought that like, intense emotion was that was nothing that was imagined like I have to keep reminding myself, this is one of the hardest parts, I think, about going through this stuff, is all of that story and all of that intense emotion and romance and da da and that person, they were not real, that was not real.

1:14:41

It was a thing that happened, it was a fabricated circumstance that they built and a fabricated identity that they made for you in order to say, hey, this is exactly all the specifications that you have given me from all the information you've given me of exactly what you like.

1:14:57

so that I can be that person for you, but really they're just tricking me.

1:15:02

So. It is hard to, it's hard to break that pattern.

1:15:06

It's, I mean, I guess in any area of your life too, like, familiar always feels better in the beginning.

1:15:14

Cause you're like, this, I know this, my body knows this.

1:15:16

Like even if it's not necessarily a good feeling, like the familiarity like over compensates for that.

1:15:25

So any new, any change it's like, You know you get that like this is new.

1:15:29

don't know how I feel about it Whatever it may be whether it's relationship new job, whatever and it's tough to Be like, okay, this is this feeling is just about the change.

1:15:41

It's not bad. It's not a bad feeling but that It's hard to like recognize the difference and be like, no.

1:15:48

No, this is this change change is good change is a good thing Let's get used to that.

1:15:51

Let's you know, and I mean I hate change I can't stand it.

1:15:56

it drives me crazy. I'm trying more and more to be like, change is good, change is good.

1:16:01

Like, I mean, that's a control thing too.

1:16:03

That's a wanting to have control of what's happening to yourself, to your life, whatever.

1:16:08

I mean, at this point, all the change has been good.

1:16:14

Any change that's happened the past few years, I'm like, even if it's not worked out in the way I've thought, it's at least worked out in my...

1:16:24

either in my best interest or it's gotten me to, okay, that didn't quite work out, but then that led me to this thing, which is even better.

1:16:31

So, I don't sometimes you just gotta let it go and let, you know, lose control a little bit and just see what happens because I don't know, not, you know me, I'm not the most religious or the most spiritual or anything like that, but I do believe like whatever your path is, like it will work out for the best for you in the end.

1:16:53

let it stop fighting it and let it be.

1:16:55

I always say that to you is like, whatever is meant for you won't pass you by.

1:16:59

And it's like, it's hard to allow yourself to free fall into those situations and give up that control.

1:17:07

But when you do, you start to see your life evolve in so many ways and you've evolved in an incredible amount of ways.

1:17:13

And I feel like I've also involved in a lot of good ways.

1:17:17

And so like, yeah, it's good.

1:17:19

It's good to give up control.