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0:26

I've quit a bunch of things in my life

0:28

probably, but the most glaring of those is

0:31

graduate school. So I quit on getting

0:33

my PhD in English literature from Yale

0:35

in the mid 80s. And

0:37

it was something that my mother, until the day

0:39

she died, asked me if I was going to

0:42

go finish my PhD. But I wish

0:44

that I had, if only because

0:46

I would like my credit

0:48

to read, you know, such

0:50

and such a role played by Dr. David

0:53

Duchovny, I think would be fun. Or Dr.

0:55

so-and-so played by Dr. David Duchovny. That

0:58

would be meta-meta. And

1:01

as much as I joke about it, it

1:04

hurts not to complete something. It hurts,

1:07

it hurts to quit on something. My

1:10

consolation, however, is that I did go

1:12

a long way. I went as far

1:14

as the dissertation. There was never one

1:16

moment where I decided to quit. I

1:18

kind of faded away from graduate school

1:20

because I had started acting. I'd started

1:22

riding my bicycle to the train station

1:24

in New Haven, getting off at Penn

1:26

Station in New York, riding my bicycle

1:28

to my acting class and riding it

1:30

back. So I was living kind of

1:33

a dual existence between New Haven graduate

1:35

school and English literature and starting to

1:37

think about acting. And

1:39

as I went further along, started

1:41

working harder to try to become

1:43

an actor, started going on auditions,

1:45

started going to LA. I

1:48

never really left. It's possible that

1:50

they're still expecting my dissertation at

1:53

this point.

1:59

I'm David Duchovny. I'm David D'Acabne

2:01

and this is Fail Better, a show

2:03

where failure, not success, shapes who we

2:05

are. Stephen

2:09

Dubner is the host of the podcast,

2:11

Pre-economics Radio. He's made

2:13

that brand his life after co-writing Pre-economics

2:15

back in 2005, which I read back

2:18

in 2005, and it blew me away.

2:20

I couldn't believe the kinds

2:22

of questions that he was asking

2:24

that made sense. And in

2:26

that way, asking questions, let's say it's Socratic,

2:28

you know, that was the Socratic method, was

2:31

asking questions. So I look at him not

2:33

just as an economics, you

2:35

know, brilliant economics guy, but

2:38

he's also kind of an intellectual and spiritual guide

2:40

for our time. He recently had

2:42

a series on the show called How to Succeed

2:44

at Failing. Of course, he comes to

2:46

us as a failure expert, not only

2:48

because of that series, but because of his own false

2:50

starts and wrong turns, which you'll hear about. He

2:53

quit his successful band, quit the New

2:55

York Times, and we both quit PhD

2:58

programs. And he's such

3:00

a podcast veteran. He's an icon of the

3:02

podcast. So, of course, he kind

3:04

of welcomed me to the club, which was sweet.

3:14

So, David, are you excited

3:16

about having a podcast? I'm

3:19

the last one not to have one, so I'm happy.

3:23

Yeah, but most of the people who

3:25

started them out of FOMO have stopped

3:27

by now, so it's actually like a

3:29

good new moment. Well, you're

3:32

early. I mean, you're a trendsetter.

3:34

Yeah, I thought I was

3:36

late. At the time you thought you were late? It's

3:38

a good lesson. Like a lot of times when you think you're too

3:40

late, you're just stupid.

3:46

I want to talk about – I mean,

3:48

I know where I'm coming from on failure.

3:50

I just

3:53

know my soul. But

3:56

I'm interested to hear what's

3:58

your origin story? of

4:01

failure. Yeah, so I

4:04

do, I am scarred by seemingly

4:06

minor failures from youth, as probably we all are. I

4:08

don't know if we all are. I mean, right off

4:11

the top of my head, I can think of at

4:13

least three, which I won't bore you with all of

4:15

them. But I will say this,

4:17

I think my feeling about failure

4:20

was also informed by my

4:22

family's religious orientation. So I

4:25

had a weird family religiously. My

4:28

parents were both Brooklyn-born Jews, kind

4:30

of standard-issue Brooklyn Jews, right? They

4:33

both came from immigrant parents. And long

4:36

story short, the two of them, my parents,

4:38

before they met each other, but during World

4:40

War II, which was not insignificant, they both

4:42

converted to Catholicism. They

4:44

both became extremely devout and believing

4:46

Catholics. Was

4:48

it an attempt to assimilate further on their

4:51

point, or was it merely they just

4:53

felt better in that religion? So

4:55

I would say the short

4:57

answer is that neither of them,

5:00

I would say, were really about

5:02

assimilating, and neither of them were

5:04

moving away from being Jewish because

5:07

of anti-Semitism. But really, they

5:09

were both very, very deeply spiritual people,

5:11

humans, as evidenced by the fact that

5:14

when they converted, they became

5:16

among the most devout Catholics I

5:18

knew, and we hung out with only Catholics.

5:22

So the end of the story is that

5:24

years later, when I moved to New York in my 20s, I ended

5:27

up becoming Jewish or returning to being

5:29

Jewish. But

5:31

I was Catholic for the formation, and the

5:34

notion that gave me the most

5:36

pause, I'll put it that way, was the idea of

5:38

original sin. This idea that

5:40

when you start, you've got a black mark on

5:42

you. And I didn't like that idea. I did

5:44

not like it. You

5:47

were conscious as a child of not

5:49

liking that idea. And I

5:51

was like, Oh, yeah, it's a big idea

5:53

when you grow up that way, because you're

5:55

living your life to try to essentially erase

5:57

or supersede the failure that you're living. that

6:00

you were born with. And I remember being like

6:02

10, 11, thinking, what kind of

6:04

God? I say it in an old Jew channel.

6:07

What kind of God is it that

6:09

would have me love him or it

6:11

for having marked me with this failure?

6:14

Now, I don't mean to disparage Christianity or Catholicism

6:16

because many of my best friends and most of

6:18

my family members are there. And

6:21

I did not like, you know, failure

6:23

hurts. And you know

6:25

what else hurts? And this is the other thing, being

6:27

accused of something you didn't do, I find

6:29

is one of the greatest injustices in life.

6:31

You think, man, you felt punished because you

6:33

were born into the world and now you

6:35

got to work off your sentence in a

6:38

way. So anyway, yeah, failure

6:41

burned me deeply. And

6:43

I made, you know, so I was a musician. And

6:46

when I was probably 12, 13,

6:48

somewhere in there, I was

6:50

asked to play the organ for the

6:53

high school graduation, pomp and circumstance. And

6:56

there's this big massive organ that

6:58

was backstage in the auditorium. And

7:02

I fucked up. I like didn't

7:04

rehearse enough. I rehearsed at home

7:06

on the piano. But

7:08

then when I got on it during the ceremony,

7:12

I couldn't quite hear myself. And

7:14

I started getting lost. I didn't really read music.

7:17

So I was playing by ear and I got

7:19

lost. And you can't stop

7:21

playing when there's a processional or whatever

7:23

you call it. So I just started

7:25

vamping. And like I grew up

7:27

playing like Chicago blues

7:29

piano. So in Feto. Yeah.

7:33

And it was like, I

7:35

feel my forehead heating up now with shame.

7:39

And so it was a horrible experience. And the

7:41

lesson I learned from that is you can

7:45

never over prepare for anything. If

7:48

something matters to you, you need to suss

7:50

out all the elements and

7:52

figure out how to solve for them. So I

7:54

had a similar failure like that when

7:56

I was around the same age. I was the

7:59

live. announcer for the lineups

8:01

of the varsity basketball. So you know

8:04

varsity basketball in a little town is

8:06

a big deal. It's the biggest event

8:08

in town every whatever Friday night. And

8:11

so all I had were the the

8:14

the lineup that the opposing team

8:16

had submitted and it just had

8:18

last names. I knew

8:20

the first names of the guys on our team because it was

8:22

a small you know you know everybody. So I

8:24

get up there and I say Johnson

8:27

and Watkins. It sounded

8:29

like really bad names

8:31

of pro wrestlers you know. And

8:34

again I just felt like an

8:36

idiot and so but these failures

8:39

help because they burn

8:41

at you. Well these

8:44

are very public. These are very

8:46

public failures. You know it's funny

8:48

you say that because like I

8:50

don't even consider failing in private.

8:52

I consider that experimentation. No

8:55

I'm serious. Well that's very that's very healthy

8:57

of you. No I mean

8:59

do you consider a well what do

9:01

you mean by a private failure? That's

9:03

a good question. You know you

9:07

have discussions in your work

9:09

about you know different types of failure

9:11

as well you know and like and I think

9:13

of sins of omission and sins of commission you

9:15

know in the Catholic Church. And I would say

9:17

the private failures are more like sins of omission

9:19

you know just thinking I was not

9:21

a kind person today or something

9:24

like that or I should have said something

9:26

in that and you know so something I

9:28

didn't do mostly. You know the minute you

9:30

say it though the difference between private and

9:32

public I realize this is probably not a

9:34

healthy thing but I totally cordoned them off.

9:37

Like if I if I'm the only one who

9:39

knows that I failed like

9:42

let's say I failed to be kinder to help someone

9:44

that I could ever should have. I

9:47

consider that a misdemeanor at

9:49

best and at worst rather you know what

9:52

I mean. Yeah. Whereas if you do

9:54

it in public but I

9:56

don't you know I wonder if that's a good thing.

9:58

It might be a good thing actually. Well, I

10:00

think it brings the shame into it, you

10:03

know, which is such

10:05

a terrible and motivating, but

10:07

it's a master. And

10:12

sometimes I wonder, how are we ever

10:14

going to learn from other people's failures?

10:16

How do we release the shame enough

10:18

to allow people to start

10:20

to heal themselves through other

10:22

people's failures? Or is that just a

10:24

dream? That you have to go through

10:27

the hard pain of shame

10:29

and failure in order to come out the other

10:31

side? So I don't

10:34

consider myself very

10:36

good at many things, but one thing that I've

10:38

only recently realized is I've gotten a lot older

10:40

that I'm pretty good at is I'm just good

10:43

at observing. And

10:45

I always thought that everybody does that. So we

10:47

just did this freak

10:50

radio series on Richard Feynman, the physicist,

10:52

who is a kind of

10:54

hero of mine. And one thing that I loved

10:56

about him is that he was just observant. And

11:01

I think the one advantage I had

11:03

in failing a lot in

11:05

all my failures is

11:07

that, and maybe this was Catholicism, honestly,

11:09

because, you know, one thing about growing

11:11

up very religious is

11:14

you are trained to constantly

11:16

inspect your behaviors

11:18

and decisions and choices and

11:21

usually declare them rotten.

11:24

And then you have to make up for them. But

11:26

then there's forgiveness. Well,

11:29

forgiveness within the Catholic Church

11:31

never felt great. No.

11:34

No, it was like, you know, 10 Hail

11:36

Marys, and then you're kind of free to

11:38

go. Look, I'm just going to be honest.

11:40

I'm a big believer in positive reinforcement. I

11:43

really am. And I'm not a big believer

11:45

in negative reinforcement. And I've been

11:48

in both kinds of environments. I used to

11:50

work at the New York Times, which I

11:52

loved. And I was, you know, my dad

11:54

was a newspaperman for small papers upstate New

11:56

York. And when I became, when

11:58

I got hired at the New York Times, He'd been dead a

12:00

long time. He died when I was a kid, but all

12:02

I could think about was, oh my gosh, I wish I

12:05

could tell my dad, this is awesome. And

12:08

then I got to the Times, and

12:10

I was proud of being there. I did a

12:12

lot of work that I really, really enjoyed. But

12:14

one thing I realized about it is, it

12:17

was an institution built on negative reinforcement.

12:19

Many people did a lot of their

12:22

work with an eye toward not fucking

12:24

up, because the

12:26

penalties were really severe. And I think when

12:28

you're a creative person of any kind, and

12:30

I would argue everybody's a creative person, it's

12:32

just it gets beaten out of us in

12:35

certain occupations and realms, you

12:38

can't create out of fear

12:40

and negativity. So because

12:43

I just for some reason believe that, when

12:46

I have a failure, whether it's messing

12:48

up with pomp and circumstance, messing up

12:51

as a basketball announcer, I

12:53

internalized it. And I guess I do feel

12:55

shame the way you were describing, but

12:58

I do think if you call every failure

13:00

an experiment that didn't go

13:02

the way you wanted it to, then

13:05

that can project you onto a more

13:07

positive route, which is to say, like

13:09

all the great scientists, all the great

13:12

thinkers ever, they've

13:14

all failed way, way, way, way, way

13:16

more than they succeed. So that's just the way it is. But

13:19

we who look at their work from a

13:21

remove and

13:24

from a distance, and there's this thing called survivorship

13:26

bias, which is we only look at

13:29

the successes. And that

13:31

is just a very immature way of being

13:33

a human. You have to recognize that everybody

13:35

is failing all the time. And if that's

13:38

the case, then you

13:40

can process that however you want,

13:42

you can process it negatively, beat

13:44

yourself up, exhibit shame, be

13:46

afraid to interact with people or put

13:48

yourself in pressure situations because you're afraid

13:50

of it. Or you can look at

13:52

it like a scientist or an artist

13:54

and say, I'm gonna write this First

13:57

scene 80 times. Be

14:00

that eighth one. That. Was good,

14:02

but you never really gonna know until you

14:04

get their life as an experiment. But you

14:06

know, I mean I may sound pollyanna now,

14:09

but I think if you look at it

14:11

positively like that, Than. Failure

14:13

can be thrilling. it really can.

14:15

It's information, it's feedback is is

14:18

to be liberating for sure. but

14:20

I would just. I think

14:22

it's a beautiful way to look at at the

14:24

world. It's a beautiful it'll look at Experience is

14:26

a beautiful way to look at education. But. There's

14:30

a lot in my life

14:32

experience that says. You

14:34

don't learn unless something hurts. Your.

14:37

In many ways and I don't mean

14:39

hurts necessarily in terms of same are

14:41

you know public same recently that with

14:43

a in needs a said we only

14:45

remember that was gives us pain you

14:47

know And I want to have the

14:49

world as you describe and I want

14:52

to educate children as you describe it.

14:54

I want to live in that world,

14:56

but I'm afraid that human nature is

14:58

such that. I. Can't I

15:00

have to touch the stove and it has

15:02

to hurt or else I am I gonna

15:04

learn it. But you know when you are

15:06

saying that about the pain at look I

15:09

don't disagree. It causes pain but then you

15:11

have a choice of what to do with

15:13

the pain. The pain is a piece of

15:15

feedback. That's all it is. It's

15:17

not a judgment on your soul. It's

15:19

a piece of feedback night. So I

15:21

have a friend Angela Duckworth wrote this

15:24

book called Grits Down. And. We

15:26

made a podcast together for a few

15:28

years and I learned a great deal

15:30

from her and see learned a great

15:32

deal from a Marty Seligman is considered.

15:34

I knew that that the founder one

15:36

of the founders of positive psychology and

15:38

I'm I'm When I first started reading

15:41

about positive psychology, I was a lot

15:43

younger as a oh that is so

15:45

fullest and there's no way like that

15:47

cat work but I've since gradually become

15:49

convinced that it is on average. Ah,

15:52

A better. Way to process

15:54

your own spears and failures et

15:56

cetera. Not to ignore them, Not

15:58

to sweep them under the rug,

16:00

but you really process them. Whenever

16:02

you fail, you really inspect it.

16:05

You. Examine it just like you would if

16:07

you know If you're a golfer, you

16:09

look at your date on all your

16:11

swings, If you're a musician, you listen

16:13

back to recordings you think what, what's

16:15

exactly going on here and then you

16:17

move forward with like passion and perseverance

16:19

to the words answer Duckworth would use

16:21

and again I realize I sound like

16:23

a really bad televangelists now or talk

16:25

show hosts but I think it's a

16:27

way to be well cause is a

16:29

very much dovetails into my son when

16:31

I a new. You're raising your kids

16:33

and and I'm sure you are. As

16:36

perplexed as any parent about

16:38

how they come into the

16:40

world with their own set

16:42

of balances and directions and

16:44

and instincts. and they're just

16:46

complete. They're not tabula rasa.

16:48

They don't appear that way

16:51

when they come in self

16:53

defense. Their full tables. That's

16:55

so. Let's say my

16:57

son are com a stoic

16:59

from a very early age

17:01

and he would speculate the

17:03

worst and. His mom

17:05

and I were were very perplexed

17:08

at in a where does this

17:10

where we thought of as pessimism

17:12

come from me you know and

17:14

eventually we just came to the

17:17

conclusion that he was softening the

17:19

blow that might come in or

17:21

should the worst happen. He's

17:24

rehearsing it so you could say yes,

17:26

positive thinking maybe creates a positive world.

17:28

I don't know. you draw positive energy

17:30

to you. I don't know. But there's

17:33

also an argument to be made for

17:35

negative thinking or stoicism. which is, why

17:37

should the worst happen? At least I

17:39

will have rehearsed it in my mind

17:41

and will be blindsided from in I'm

17:44

Kill. Yeah, that that's

17:46

interesting. This is a topic I think about a

17:48

lot. His. Sons are you like

17:50

to live with the struggle? Oh I

17:52

do. I mean I. I

17:54

do. Rang I I.

17:57

I'm. attached to it in a way that may be

17:59

on healthy. Or

18:02

it may be mature and it may be that

18:04

I like to live with less

18:07

struggle. I like to, I'm impatient, like

18:09

when there's a problem I like to

18:12

get at it and

18:14

get it to some kind of resolution but I don't

18:16

like to live with the problem. Yeah,

18:19

you know I guess I

18:21

feel like living with the problem is the point,

18:24

you know, sometimes. Yeah, I mean that's the, you know,

18:26

some would argue that's the human condition. This

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22:33

do call you a spiritual teacher

22:36

because I really see the

22:38

way you work through these problems

22:40

as being part of a spiritual

22:42

tradition. And I'd love to talk

22:44

about the Christ philosophy is really one

22:46

of failure. It's, the meek shall inherit

22:48

the earth. And that

22:51

would seem to me to resonate with you, Stephen,

22:54

as part of the

22:57

Christian message is really one, it's an

22:59

upside down message of in the Roman

23:01

world, really, which was one

23:03

of strength and victory. So you had

23:06

a religion of the

23:09

downtrodden, of the meek. And

23:11

I wonder why that didn't resonate

23:13

for you. And what is it in

23:15

Judaism that did resonate for you in

23:18

terms of what is clearly your life's

23:20

work around failure and thinking

23:22

outside the box and innovation and that? Yeah,

23:24

so I do wish that there were

23:26

more conversations about religion, theology,

23:29

spirituality, within an intellectual perspective.

23:31

But religion has really become

23:34

sidelined in that regard. I think for

23:36

good reason, which is

23:38

I think a lot of the most prominent religious

23:41

figures are not really

23:43

approaching things from a, you

23:46

know, not just intellectual

23:48

perspective, but even a

23:50

kind of universal perspective. You

23:52

know, my favorite thing about Christianity is that there are

23:54

billions of people around the world praying to a rabbi

23:56

all the time. I mean, that's just cool. I

24:00

mean, Jesus was a rabbi, for those who are not aware

24:02

of the history. And that's not... And probably

24:04

a magician as well. Right. Those,

24:06

fishes, you name it. War and wine. Where was

24:08

it hidden? He had a rabbit somewhere in a hat. So

24:13

with Judaism, I

24:15

was attracted to it for

24:17

a specific set of reasons. As

24:20

I mentioned, I was born, my parents were Jewish,

24:22

lived in very Jewish families, but

24:24

then by the time I was a kid, they

24:26

were no longer Jewish. But then when I moved

24:28

to New York City from upstate New York in

24:31

my 20s, New York is a very

24:33

Jewish city. And so a lot of my

24:37

teachers, a mentor or

24:39

two or three even, a lot of them were

24:41

Jewish and I just began to absorb this Jewish

24:43

history. And then I began to think about, oh,

24:45

my parents used to be this thing. I

24:48

don't really know what this thing is. I should figure out

24:50

what this thing is. Then in the course of doing that,

24:53

I felt myself just slipping into it. But

24:57

then because I was religious by nature as

24:59

a kid, or at least religious by experience,

25:02

I did begin to learn the religion of

25:04

Judaism. And there were some things that really

25:06

resonated with me. But like, you know, this

25:08

notion of tikkun olam in Judaism, which is

25:11

the idea of repairing the, fixing

25:13

the world, repairing the world. And the idea is

25:16

that you should really

25:18

live your life in service of making

25:20

things better, as basic as that sounds.

25:23

It's not about triumph. It's

25:25

not about escaping evil. It's

25:28

about trying to, you

25:31

know, there's a line in Talmud, turn it

25:33

and turn it and turn it for everything

25:35

is in it. And the it is, it's

25:37

the tradition. And so Jews for,

25:39

you know, many, many, many, many centuries have

25:42

been arguing and talking about, you know, what is

25:44

this thing? Whatever the thing is in front

25:46

of you could be a political issue, could be

25:48

a food, whatever, turn it and turn it and

25:50

turn it and keep trying to figure it out.

25:52

Don't debate it. Debate it. And

25:55

debate is good. Well, here's Stephen.

25:57

This is, this is, it gets back to

25:59

me conceiving. you as a spiritual teacher because

26:01

well first of all you like golf because

26:03

that's that's amazing to me because I can't

26:05

stand that game. Yeah I love it. I

26:08

took it up as a you know maybe

26:11

15 years ago. Yeah. But

26:14

wow do I love it. Like when I

26:16

was a kid when I was playing music

26:18

you know yeah for anybody who plays music

26:20

or any sport or anybody

26:22

who does any anything like that

26:24

yeah there's such a thrill

26:26

of learning anything

26:29

and you know it's ridiculous

26:31

to me that we delegate

26:34

most of the learning in our society to kids

26:36

like you got to go to school and they're

26:38

all set but then once you become an adult

26:40

you're just like this block of things that doesn't

26:43

really well you're supposed to do what you've

26:45

been doing. Yeah I don't like

26:47

that idea. I don't like it either Steven.

26:50

I've started two different careers after

26:53

the age of 50 as a writer and as a

26:55

musician and I care if you

26:57

like it or not but I don't care

26:59

as deeply as I might have cared once about

27:01

whether you like my acting because my bread and

27:03

butter you know was that and I had to

27:05

succeed in order to keep on doing it but

27:10

the state of mind that I get

27:12

to because I just learned how to play guitar

27:14

ten years ago. Seriously. Yeah. Are you good? Are you

27:16

good now? No no I'm not good but I'm good

27:19

enough to write and so when I write

27:21

because I'm good with words and I

27:23

now I got the chords and I can I hear

27:25

melodies even though I can't really sing that well but

27:27

I hear the melodies and I'm

27:29

19 in my head when that's happened. No

27:31

honestly I'm not my brain isn't spongy like it was

27:34

when I was when I was 19 and that's

27:36

why I'll never be a great player but

27:39

the mindset that I

27:41

get the kind of soul sustenance that

27:43

I get even when I write I've been writing my

27:45

whole life but I didn't really start to focus on

27:47

it till the last 10 years it's

27:50

like the fountain of youth inside. That's

27:53

honestly what I love about

27:55

golf is you

27:57

are trying to get your mind to cooperate.

28:00

with your body in a way that is

28:02

kind of like music, kind of

28:04

like writing, kind of like business, but different

28:06

than all of them. And it's

28:08

really hard. And when you sync it up,

28:11

it feels good. And I like being a

28:13

person that gets older, learning

28:15

to do new things, because I believe one of the

28:18

most powerful emotions that any of

28:20

us can have is the feeling

28:22

of accomplishment. And failure

28:24

is a part of accomplishment. It's just simple

28:26

as that. So if you want to get

28:28

the high of accomplishing, you have

28:31

to go through failure to get it. And I look

28:33

at it as like the work that you do. Failure

28:35

is the work that you do to get to the

28:37

thing you want, knowing that you might not even get

28:39

to the thing you want, but you're still gonna be

28:41

better off having tried. That's the way I look at

28:43

failure overall. But there is a

28:45

point at which you say quit. I

28:49

quit. I mean, I've quit so many things, David.

28:52

Like my first, the first big thing I quit,

28:55

other than Catholicism, I guess, was

28:58

music. So I played music, I said,

29:00

as a kid, was in bands

29:03

in high school, not good. And then I got in

29:05

a band in college with

29:07

another guy named Jeffrey Dean Foster, who was

29:09

really good. And we just synced

29:12

up and we were both raw, but

29:14

we got good together. We had a band,

29:16

two other, three other very good guys. And

29:19

then we ended up, you know, going

29:23

through all the stuff you go to, traveling,

29:25

touring, being bad, playing covers, starting to write

29:27

songs, et cetera, et cetera. And

29:29

then we ended up getting a record deal, moved

29:31

to New York, start making the record. And it

29:34

had been a, you know,

29:36

a couple years of being heading towards

29:38

success. And a series

29:40

of events over those couple years that

29:42

kind of lodged themselves in my brain,

29:44

including getting to meet Bruce

29:46

Springsteen one night, backstage, when he came

29:49

to sit in with

29:51

this little band called the Del Fuegos. Remember

29:53

the Del Fuegos from Boston? Really good. So

29:55

we had the same managers as them. And

29:59

I went to see them play. at this pub in Greensboro,

30:01

North Carolina, where they happened to be touring

30:03

and I was living down there. And Bruce

30:05

Springsteen was playing at the Coliseum. And

30:08

he stopped by, told him he

30:10

liked their record, and then they're just talking

30:12

between sets around all the, with all the

30:14

beer in the back. And

30:16

this was right when Born in the USA

30:18

was out. You know, he'd been great

30:21

if you liked Springsteen. He was like a

30:23

god. And then Born in the USA was

30:25

like the big commercial record that made him

30:27

a superstar. And he didn't say it in

30:29

these words, but the message I took from that night

30:31

is if I knew that this

30:34

is what it means to be famous, I don't know if

30:36

I'd wanted to be famous so much. Right. And so... It's

30:39

the trap of success or success being

30:41

its own type of failure in a

30:43

way. Yeah. What lesson

30:45

can you ever learn from success, I guess, is the flip

30:47

side to what we're talking about today. And I would say

30:50

nothing. No, honestly,

30:52

I don't think I've ever learned anything from

30:54

success. Is that true? Why do you think

30:56

that is? I

30:59

don't know why it is. I think it goes back

31:01

to hurt, you know, because failure sends you inward and

31:04

you start to think. And I

31:07

quit a very hugely

31:09

successful television show,

31:11

you know, after seven or

31:13

eight years. That was long enough when

31:15

I quit The X-Files. And that

31:20

was the biggest success I

31:23

could ever quit. I mean, like a global phenomenon

31:25

of a show. And I just

31:29

knew that I

31:31

had done everything I could in that

31:34

format and in that show. And

31:37

that it

31:39

felt like it was going to be my whole life

31:41

at that point. It felt like if I went any

31:43

longer, I was going to

31:45

be doing karaoke me, whatever that was, you

31:48

know, whatever version of karaoke me it was.

31:50

So it was like a life saving thing

31:53

for me to do it. And yet, to

31:56

quit, you know, quitting can

31:58

be very noble and strong. Long

32:00

and courageous. But I have to say in

32:02

a one year maybe you saw this when

32:04

you could the times. Maybe if you quit

32:06

your ban on oh no she says you

32:08

dead. but when you do quit an enterprise

32:10

you also quit people as I quitting a

32:12

family and as a lot of pain. A

32:15

lot of pain that comes with stopping

32:17

a train that's moving happily along just

32:19

because I've got some misgivings about it,

32:21

you know, and I still carry to

32:23

this day. I carry. Misgivings

32:25

about myself and as what you did is

32:28

I think harder because what you just said

32:30

year and I wanna say letting people down

32:32

but you're changing the calculus of the lives

32:35

of a lot of people around him. When

32:37

I quit the band it wasn't like I

32:39

don't think it was like that because I

32:41

think you know There were two of us

32:44

who were singer songwriters and now there was

32:46

one and in a way that made it

32:48

clear a path for them so they may

32:51

have missed me. They may not as but

32:53

I'm when I quit the times. They

32:56

did. You know that the matter

32:58

to the time for you You

33:00

are. You know these at with

33:02

that phrase in the entertainment Contacts

33:04

Key Man Claude Rains Man Closer

33:06

you are the key man. I

33:08

will take the manifest. So how

33:10

many people were how pissed off

33:12

at you. As. A

33:15

result of quitting that and Twelve and

33:17

the show continued it when another year

33:19

after a lesser I'd I didn't see

33:21

a light. On. Them. You

33:24

know, I had taken bread out of people's mouths. Immediately.

33:28

Yeah, but a one year but but theoretically.

33:30

I mean what? What about it? Date of popularity

33:32

at the time you quit goes guy like it

33:35

was wailing and women is reach this it's peak

33:37

but. It

33:39

was. It was complicated. In I was complicated

33:41

to do that. You know he

33:43

is like disconnecting from a power source

33:45

of it. I wonder if you have

33:47

you have your. Main

33:50

stream of of of Creativity

33:52

which is for economics and

33:54

and now the podcast and.

33:57

Are there any days the to wake up and feel like the.

34:00

Some go been on for like singing

34:02

the song today. I'd rather I'd rather

34:04

try right that novel I I'd take

34:06

two things that that one is. I

34:08

built a little company to do this

34:10

so we're fifteen twenty people and I

34:12

do think about that. I'm not saying

34:15

I will never stop, but I'm you

34:17

know we. This past year we had

34:19

our first to for economics radio babies

34:21

born to women on the staff both

34:23

has kids and him like. I like

34:25

having a company that is solid enough

34:27

and real enough that people come here

34:29

to. Work and they get you know, parental

34:31

leave and they this is that you know

34:34

We built the saying and so that's very

34:36

meaningful. Shirt in terms of though like waking

34:38

up and seen, I don't feel like writing

34:40

this or know what to write. Born in

34:42

the Usa Today right? So the one thing

34:44

I will say about that that I learned

34:46

from my friend Angela Duckworth. To

34:49

the first time. So we became friends because

34:51

he wrote this book grits and I interviewed

34:53

her for Freakonomics Radio for some episode were

34:55

doing years and years and years ago. Then

34:57

we started hanging out in I realize she's

34:59

awesome and would be a great collaborator And

35:01

then we collaborate. but the very first time

35:03

I. I. Believe this is the first

35:06

time ever talk to her Really. I.

35:08

Asked her like you know. If.

35:10

You think about grit versus quit like?

35:12

how do you know? How do

35:15

you know when you should stick it out or

35:17

how much more it will take? And there are

35:19

two dimensions? There's one is can you get good

35:21

enough where it will be. Fruitful for

35:23

you, but also like, do you want

35:26

to do that thing And so I

35:28

was asking her, you know, what do

35:30

you do if you're doing a thing

35:32

that you do like, but you just

35:35

kind of get bored. Does that make

35:37

you would dilute dance and you just

35:39

quit and move on to something else?

35:41

And that's when she taught me this

35:44

notion of what she calls substituting nuance

35:46

for novelty, said novelties, what everybody wants.

35:48

You're always going to try new things

35:50

because it's exciting and fun, and that's

35:53

kind. Of the way that we're wired. But

35:55

if you're not in a position wouldn't have

35:57

hope. He eats is an option. Let's say

35:59

you know I'm married. I have a spouse

36:01

make. Yeah, I might like to be married

36:04

to that person or that person. Well, that's

36:06

you know, they're pretty high transaction costs there

36:08

may be don't wanna do that, but nuance

36:10

for novelty means that within the thing that

36:13

you're doing, let's take this back to work

36:15

and not marriage or would ever find different

36:17

ways to make it exciting to buy new

36:19

ones. So when she taught me that lesson

36:22

Tubby Six Seven Eight years ago, that was

36:24

a turning point for me with Freakonomics Radio.

36:26

I've now been doing it fourteen years. and

36:28

honestly, I think it's more. Fun for

36:30

me now than ever because she

36:33

helped me conceive of are sort

36:35

of creative framework whereby. My.

36:39

So is whatever I wanted to be.

36:42

But. Don't tell anybody. Don't

36:44

tell. It's because people are

36:46

really doing freakonomics. Yeah.

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of the things. I was struck

41:23

by. During the pandemic was

41:25

having of your basketball fan but you

41:27

know the last dance came on and

41:30

it became this the as decide house

41:32

hit because everybody was was home and

41:34

see my everybody was watching the the

41:37

Jordan balls look I love Michael Jordan

41:39

to me the best player area of

41:41

I couldn't love him anymore but when

41:43

I watch him give us hall of

41:46

Fame speeds and you know holding a

41:48

grudge against a kid in high school

41:50

you know that the kind of the

41:53

crazy need to win. And then I see

41:55

a country. Applauding this

41:57

as if that's what you gotta do to

41:59

be aware. Yeah to be a

42:01

killer. You. Have to you

42:03

Millie A the loser and I'm wondering

42:05

what country are we living in. You

42:08

know I'm coming off of obviously we don't

42:11

wanna talk about Trump that he has a

42:13

guy who can't lose. Yeah, here's a guy

42:15

who has his entire life is trying to

42:17

reinterpret. As biggest loss before

42:20

that he lost a bunch of

42:22

he lost billion dollars. a businessman

42:24

is Nina litigated. that's realize as

42:26

well. So we have. Two.

42:28

Major. Let's com

42:31

aspiration figures. What?

42:34

Does that say to you about. Any.

42:36

Way that we can. Educate

42:38

our children. Are there's

42:40

two sports? Or through. I

42:43

don't know. Yeah on

42:46

as a long ass. When did question on I. I

42:49

think the saying about trump. That

42:52

is most frustrating for people who don't love

42:54

him and I think the majority of people

42:56

don't love him. There lot of people who

42:58

will vote for him despite not loving him.

43:01

But I think the thing I'm it's most

43:03

frustrating for people who don't love me is

43:05

that it's pretty obvious that he doesn't cite

43:08

fair. And there's something

43:10

about this country that is always

43:12

promoted fairness I mean, and that's

43:14

a big part of what sport

43:16

is about that. his own words

43:18

he always use loser and any

43:20

book ppl of that. The I

43:22

love it and what is it? What? Is

43:25

it in us as unhealed or

43:27

misshapen as a country. The

43:29

Up: As a people so you know,

43:31

Trump added a tad long before he

43:34

ran for president, yet a long history

43:36

of golf. These plays golf, yoga, golf

43:38

yet bits of truth to them. okay,

43:40

a big big cheater. And in golf

43:42

If you play golf, You

43:45

always encounter a cheater to and

43:47

then you stay away from that

43:49

person because. It's a

43:51

game of characters supposed to be at least. But

43:55

the things? that's the thing I love

43:57

about sport. Sport. Is

43:59

away. All of us to get

44:01

are ya cel As fans and competitors?

44:03

It's a way it it is literally

44:06

a proxy. For. Kind of the

44:08

old fashioned version of what humans used

44:10

to do. I mean the way I'm

44:12

sure you know this. So the reason

44:14

we seek hands when we greed is

44:16

it comes from showing your loan and

44:18

a weapon air as area you don't

44:20

have your sword and your and exactly

44:22

so like. I love the fact that

44:24

we've developed this whole system of sport.

44:26

That is really enough you think about

44:28

sport, it's really different. If you're talking

44:30

about participatory or spectator. you know Scott

44:32

Galloway. This I think really smart guy

44:34

teaches it and my you he says

44:37

I'm the success. Of a ah, a

44:39

young human, especially of the mail

44:41

variety will be a direct proportion

44:43

of the hours that they sweat

44:45

versus the hours that they watch

44:47

other people swear. And

44:50

I think about that. As you

44:53

know, I sometimes enjoy watching other

44:55

press wedding on a Sunday afternoon.

44:57

Whatever a fantasy that especially if

44:59

you're playing fantasy football. But it

45:02

it saddens me that what should

45:04

be a play acting version of

45:06

war is harnessed. To give inspiration.

45:09

The people who really want us.

45:11

Who who really want to hate

45:13

friend. But the fact is, we

45:15

attach ourselves to these tribal affiliations

45:17

with the zeal of people living

45:19

in Babylonian five thousand years ago.

45:21

So you know the world is

45:24

complicated. On a know it's easy

45:26

to beat up the people who do the stuff

45:28

you hate. But. I do feel

45:30

there and I understand that, but I do

45:32

feel that for all of us there's a

45:34

lot of upside and seeking out the people

45:36

who are just quietly. Putting. Their

45:38

head down figuring stuff out. Experimenting. Experimenting.

45:41

Experimenting and failing. and failing. and failing.

45:43

And I think that's a nice I

45:45

think that's a nice role model. I

45:48

agree with you. I I I. I

45:50

tried to do that for my kids. I

45:52

would constantly tell them. I. Feel like

45:54

a failure. Consumer. What

45:56

are they had of they respond to that? When.

46:02

I was is not. A

46:04

Always a pleasure seven Thank you thank

46:06

you for coming on! I'm an interesting

46:08

me. I love the conversation, love getting

46:10

to know you'll a bit then I

46:12

I I predict great thanks to this.com

46:15

because you know what can go wrong

46:17

with the Thought podcast about failure right?

46:19

Exactly? I mean if I fail I,

46:21

I succeed. I

46:35

missed a couple of. Areas

46:38

that I wanted to get into: A

46:40

Stephen I'm. One

46:44

was the. I

46:46

was raised in kind of a

46:49

mindset of of scarcity and in

46:51

a in a world of scarcity,

46:54

And in a world

46:56

and world views are

46:58

scarcely, then it's possible

47:00

to think of other

47:02

people's success as. Making.

47:05

It harder for you to succeed. And

47:09

that's another thing I want to.

47:11

I'm investigating this contest as. Does

47:14

someone else a success contribute

47:16

to my failure? contribute to

47:18

my ceiling like a failure?

47:21

as well as like this. I woke up this

47:23

morning the set idea like his failure does it

47:25

feel contagious to people. When

47:28

I got divorced I found that there were some

47:30

married couples the didn't wanna hang around with a

47:32

divorce guy. I'm.

47:36

Not naming names, but. You

47:39

know there's certain kind of

47:41

contagious quality, too. Deeply

47:46

painful experiences that other people those

47:48

who are you know that people

47:51

don't want to confront. I think

47:53

it's a thing. Because

47:56

in this one of the things

47:58

I was trying to drive. A

48:00

difference between myself and Stephen was

48:02

thus, The snow

48:04

snuff. How painful satirists. And this is it

48:06

that. Has. Degrees

48:10

around. It's. Funny

48:14

to their training. And

48:17

as make enough money, Maybe that's

48:19

my mood? Later.

48:29

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