Episode Transcript
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Lemonado. There
1:43
are some people who can pack all
1:45
their belongings into a little knapsack and
1:47
just hit the road, not
1:50
knowing where they're going. They can live
1:52
off the grid for months at a
1:54
time, sleep under the stars, go from
1:56
country to country, washing their
1:59
socks, and in
2:01
a hotel coffee pot,
2:03
which I've heard is a thing, or
2:07
a stream. I
2:09
truly, I admire so much
2:11
about people like that, but
2:14
it's just not me. I need
2:16
a little corner that is mine. Sometimes
2:19
I'm surprised that people expect me to be
2:21
more of a free spirit, as if everyone
2:23
who lives in the public eye is just
2:25
like ready for anything, up
2:27
for whatever, any time of the day
2:29
or night. But I
2:32
have always been this way. I am a
2:34
creature of habit. I have known about
2:37
myself for a long time that I
2:39
need roots. I need
2:41
to be tethered to something. ["The
2:46
The The The
2:49
The The The
2:52
The The The The
2:56
The The The The
3:28
former pizza restaurant possibly live in
3:30
should everything at some point come
3:33
crashing down because sometimes
3:36
it does. So
3:39
take a listen and make good choices.
3:48
I'm so excited to talk to you. I'm a
3:51
really huge fan of yours. Wow. Huge.
3:54
Wow. I am such a fan
3:56
of yours that that is wild to hear. The fact
3:58
that you know who I am is crazy to me.
4:00
I had butterflies. and I had to eat a roll
4:02
eggs. And that's the God's honest truth. I had a
4:04
roll eggs before I don't have with anxiety or just
4:06
it does. Even
4:08
placebo. It's simplicity. It's like a little
4:11
piece of chalk that I eat that
4:13
gets settled. It's like beta blockers except
4:15
for your body. I think so.
4:17
I think it just it's just like, why are
4:19
we dealing with chalk right now? And all of
4:21
the focus goes to what I've put inside. Yeah,
4:24
no, I'm running in in the body.
4:26
Yeah. Well, I can't believe I'm talking to you.
4:29
I feel like this is
4:31
such an honor and I'm so flattering. And
4:33
I really, you are
4:35
incredible. And I watched
4:38
you all the time and like really looked forward
4:40
to you and thought, wow,
4:42
women can be funny and smart at the
4:44
same time. You know, I
4:46
think you Okay, well, we will I'm gonna
4:48
actually ask you questions. Like I actually have
4:51
an agenda here today, but I want
4:53
to say that your cookbooks are influential
4:55
in my life. People in my family,
4:57
even like my stepmom, all these people
5:00
that I know, everybody makes your shortbread
5:02
cookies for one thing. Because that's just
5:04
like, that is a family activity, just
5:06
a classic family activity. And just it's
5:08
just known, you're known to everyone in
5:10
my family. So just hold
5:12
that in your heart. That's very wholesome.
5:14
It's like a very beautiful cookbook club.
5:16
I love cookbooks. I don't, I'm like
5:19
a cookbook addict, actually. That's how I,
5:22
apart from taking a role, if I'm feeling nervous,
5:25
I like to do in the same way. Yeah, they
5:27
suit me in the exact same way. Okay. So
5:31
I do you have so many things going
5:33
on that we need to talk about before
5:35
we talk about all the stuff that you're
5:37
doing, which I'm so excited about. And I
5:39
love this show.
5:41
As a launch point, we talk about
5:43
choice and the choices that you've made
5:45
in your life, big or small, that
5:47
kind of got you where
5:49
you are, or made
5:51
a big change or a little change that kind of like
5:55
became a big change. But
5:57
that's sort of the idea of making
5:59
choices is really different. for everyone. Are
6:01
you very good at it? Are you
6:03
decisive? I'm extremely decisive. Are you? Yeah,
6:05
but I sit on things for a
6:07
minute before I decide. But
6:09
I'm the kind of person that will be at a
6:11
party, having a pretty good time, and then
6:14
be like, I have to go right
6:16
now. And it's not like my
6:18
mind changed. It's that I arrived to the party. I was like, I'm
6:20
probably not going to stay long, but while I'm here, I'm going to
6:22
have a great time. Okay. When I'm ready to
6:24
go, I'm ready to go. It's kind of that with anything where
6:27
it's like, I know
6:29
before the thing happens, I'm like, I'm ready.
6:32
Let's go. I don't waffle too much. Are
6:35
you the type of person who's like, I think that I'm going to wake
6:37
up at 6 15 tomorrow, and
6:39
your brain just goes, is 6 15? Absolutely
6:42
not. No, I mean, I wake up at 6
6:45
15 often because I sleep poorly. Okay.
6:47
And my body will wake
6:49
me up at like anywhere from 3 to 6 am
6:52
and I'll stay awake and do
6:54
crosswords. But it's not by choice. Not
6:57
by choice. No. Okay. But you just
6:59
when you're in something, you're like, it is over
7:02
now. And now I leave. Yeah, it is like
7:04
a heavy and you know, I think about it
7:06
a lot in terms of like intuition versus information.
7:10
And do I make choices based on information
7:12
or intuition? I don't know. If I had
7:14
to guess, I'd say more intuition, which depending
7:17
on how like scientifically minded
7:19
you are could be bullshit. But
7:22
I do feel like I'm
7:24
a more feelings based decision maker.
7:27
Right. And when something is in terms
7:29
of like career choices is something when
7:31
you have all the information about something,
7:33
and there's always some piece of it
7:35
that's totally unknowable, the
7:38
end result, of course, is unknowable. Do
7:40
you toss and turn for weeks and weeks? Or are you
7:42
like, this is what I want
7:44
to do. This is what is guiding me is
7:48
how much I like this thing. I
7:50
feel like before, like the
7:52
earlier in my career, my choices were more like
7:55
big swings and not like I would leave a job,
7:57
I would move to a city I would like. do
8:00
these really big, more
8:03
definitive choices and things
8:06
that would have a big ripple
8:08
effect. Versus now, things happen a
8:10
lot more gradually. They reveal
8:13
themselves. I'm like, oh, this started as this, but
8:15
it's now this. I like
8:18
that. Or whoa, we got a course correct.
8:20
We strayed
8:22
too far from the path. So I think it's
8:24
less, I'm going to do this
8:26
now and more, see
8:29
how things unfold, given that there's so much up in
8:31
the air. Yeah, I mean, and there's certain
8:33
things that are boring decisions you have to make. It's like, okay,
8:35
well, you have to plan this
8:37
thing ahead. You have to do this deadline. You have to
8:40
write a book. You have to, things that are
8:42
not so vibe based.
8:44
It can't be all vibes
8:46
all the time, unfortunately. It can't be
8:49
just vibes. Do you do like it? Are you a person who
8:51
likes a deadline? I am because
8:53
otherwise I'll never do it. Me too.
8:56
I actually need it. Even
8:58
if it feels arbitrary, to
9:00
just put some structure on the
9:02
process. Yeah. I mean, you seem, I've always
9:04
taken you for a creative
9:07
person. And I think that people assume
9:09
that a creative person doesn't like boundaries
9:11
or guidelines or guardrails, but I
9:13
think actually we really need it and sort
9:16
of crave it because it does give us
9:19
like safe space to move around in rather
9:21
than just like splat everywhere.
9:23
And then like, at
9:25
least for me, I'm just like, Oh, this is a mess. This is
9:28
nothing is organized. No one knows where
9:30
anything is like, cause I'm just like,
9:32
yeah, exactly. So I do like an
9:34
assignment. I love a deadline. I love
9:37
structure. I love parameters. When
9:39
I was younger, like in my
9:41
early twenties, I got a loft. I got,
9:44
I moved in with a bunch of friends into a loft
9:47
and I actually lived in there for six months and I
9:49
was like, I can't have to get out of here. There's
9:51
too much head space. Yeah. Okay.
9:54
There was just like too much room. I needed
9:57
the parameters of a normal. Yeah. It's
9:59
funny because I just moved out of
10:01
a loft and into a place that
10:03
has like literally two days ago that
10:05
has like actual rooms. And
10:07
I feel already like so much more grounded and
10:09
so much more like, okay, this is my office.
10:11
I go and work. Instead of just like, this
10:13
is the room where you do everything, you know,
10:15
like you cook here, you eat here, you work
10:17
here, you watch TV here, you hang out here,
10:20
but it's all the same room. Yes.
10:22
Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah,
10:24
which like in theory is really nice. You know, like all the
10:26
light and space, but like, it's not
10:28
good, especially if you live with another person,
10:31
because you're always there, wherever you go, there
10:33
they are. Yeah, you're just rattling around with
10:35
somebody in a big old tall room where
10:37
you can't even be so tall. You can't
10:39
even beautiful, so beautiful and in theory. And
10:43
in reality, you're just like, I can't,
10:45
I'm not Spider-Man. We need, I'm
10:48
not a trapeze artist. No, I feel
10:50
flailing is the word that comes to
10:52
mind, unfortunately. So when you
10:54
look back, when you look back at
10:56
the entirety of your life thus far,
10:58
is there the choice that you made
11:00
that you think really stands
11:02
out for you as something that kind of changed
11:05
the trajectory or was fulfilling in a way
11:07
that you weren't expecting? Or just, is there
11:09
a big choice that you made that really
11:11
stands out to you? Yeah, I
11:14
mean, you know, I thought about this question and
11:16
I was thinking about, especially earlier
11:18
in my life, how it felt
11:20
like every choice that I made was like, really
11:23
set me on the path to where I
11:25
am now for a multitude of reasons. But
11:28
I would say like, making the decision to
11:30
leave college and start working in restaurants when I
11:32
was 19, that was sort of the first decision.
11:34
The first choice that I made, not
11:37
just because of my age, but like, I
11:40
mean, I guess partly because of my age, I
11:42
was 19. But like, really felt like this was
11:44
something that I'm deciding for myself. This is something
11:46
that nobody else is weighing in on. This
11:48
is something that like, this choice
11:50
will affect me and my life for the rest of
11:52
my life. And I was so
11:54
sure that it was the right choice. I
11:56
was like, never was I scared or like,
11:58
what if this doesn't work? I
12:00
was like, I'm going to do this and this is what I'm
12:02
doing. And I
12:05
sort of kind of, I kind of like went
12:07
forth with that energy for
12:10
every major decision after that, where it was
12:12
like, I'm moving to San Francisco. I'm moving
12:14
to New York. I'm quitting this job. I'm doing
12:16
this thing. Where it was like, everyone was like,
12:18
what? Like it didn't, I never took
12:20
like a, what I would consider like an obvious path.
12:24
And I remember my dad once, and
12:27
this was like after I had been living
12:29
in New York for a few years and I like just left
12:31
a job to take another job. And it was
12:33
like a really good job that I took for kind of like
12:35
an unknowable job. And he was like,
12:37
you know, you always make the right choice, even
12:39
if I can't see it at the time. So
12:42
I guess congratulations. I was like sort of a
12:44
compliment, but I mean, it was, it was sort
12:46
of like the acknowledgement that like, I
12:49
obviously am like seeing something, whether, you know, whether
12:51
or not every choice feels
12:53
like the right thing at the start. But yeah,
12:55
I think that for me, the biggest and most
12:58
important was like that first choice. So
13:00
consequential. Did you have people, did the people
13:02
in your life resist that?
13:04
Or was it so confusing to
13:06
them or did they kind of see it coming?
13:08
I think it was more confusing. I mean, my
13:11
parents, I think always knew that I
13:13
was kind of non-traditional
13:15
in that, I didn't even want to go to college in the
13:17
first place. And then when my, all my friends were going away,
13:19
I was like, no, I do want to go to college and
13:22
kind of did my own thing when
13:25
given the opportunity. And so I don't
13:27
think that they were shocked, but I do think they were like, is
13:30
my daughter's life going to be ruined by
13:32
this choice? That like, she seems really adamant
13:34
on making. How much power do we have
13:36
in like her making these choices? And I
13:39
think that, you know, I think most parents
13:41
feel that way as
13:43
they watch their kids get older, no matter what age they
13:45
are. But, you know, being like,
13:48
is this, how much control do I have
13:50
over this person who's like clearly made up their mind? Right.
13:52
Who's a legal adult? Exactly. Yeah.
13:57
Did you, when you started working in the
14:00
room, restaurant where you're like, great, this
14:02
is what I this is actually what exactly where
14:04
I want to be. Yeah. And I and like the first
14:06
few months in the restaurant, I mean, I cried every day.
14:08
I was like, I've ruined my life.
14:10
This was terrible. I'm, you
14:13
know, but I never thought I made the wrong choice. I
14:16
was never like, Oh, I should have stayed in school. I
14:18
should I should have not given this a shot. I was
14:20
just like frustrated that I wasn't good yet. Okay,
14:23
because like, it's like, it's like a someone who's like
14:25
trying to do something physical that they really aspire to.
14:27
And they're like, I'm just I don't have the skill
14:29
yet. And like, that's kind of what
14:32
it was like, I knew I wanted to learn how
14:34
to cook and do it well and an inspired to it
14:36
so much. But like, I was burning things, I was
14:38
dropping things might, I didn't want to use a knife. I
14:40
didn't know like, the physicality of being in a professional
14:42
kitchen, because that is something that you have to learn. Right,
14:45
right. And the people you were working with in
14:47
the restaurant where they like we see you, and
14:50
we're gonna show we're gonna show you
14:52
we believe them. Yeah, my boss, my like immediate
14:54
boss and mentor Ron, he was like, well, you
14:56
want to be here. And you really care. And
14:59
that's like half the battle. That's more than half
15:01
the battle. Like you can teach someone how to
15:03
do something. But you can't teach somebody
15:05
to like care and teach somebody
15:07
to be enthusiastic. And like,
15:09
I feel that way about like, when I think
15:11
about hiring people or whatever, like moving forward and
15:14
in job related stuff, or yeah,
15:16
I don't I mean, you can teach anyone
15:18
most things. And if the skill isn't there,
15:20
I'm more I'm more willing to overlook that
15:22
than be like, Oh, but you your personality
15:24
gets it like, we see
15:26
each other. Yeah, right, right. Like you
15:28
want to you want to imagine that
15:31
you're bringing people into a
15:33
workplace who want to leave the workplace better
15:35
than when they arrived. Like you're always thinking
15:37
about growth. Yeah, or just also
15:40
understanding that like, no one's good at everything
15:42
when they start doing it. And
15:44
it just like takes time and everyone has to
15:46
start somewhere. And I started like a very high
15:48
level kitchen. Yeah, that I felt very lucky that
15:50
they didn't just tell me to leave because they,
15:53
by all accounts, like probably should have because I didn't know what
15:55
I was doing. But it was
15:57
a lot of like really patient people and I like just
16:00
felt really lucky to be there and kind of like tried to
16:02
learn as much as I could from the people around me and
16:05
Do a good job. Do you remember the first thing
16:07
that you made there
16:09
that you really thought?
16:12
Oh, I I've connected with okay. I did this I
16:15
did you know I wish I did but I it's
16:17
funny because I have like my recipe book from that
16:19
time and it is So sweet
16:21
and like pure, you know, it's like
16:23
just full of enthusiasm for cooking and
16:25
baking and life but
16:28
I mean like I think there's like a few recipes in
16:30
the beginning that I probably were like the first things that
16:33
I made like Cookie dough and ice cream
16:35
base and like a lemon curd and like, you know kind
16:37
of based more basic bakery
16:40
style dessert things but
16:43
yeah, the first time that you like when
16:45
you're cooking and someone says like For
16:48
example like roast until blah blah blah
16:51
and you're like, why do my carrots always turn out
16:53
like wet? Even though like I'm roasting
16:55
them to the time that they say Right
16:57
and you're like, oh you just got a roast them
16:59
longer and you'll know you'll know when you know When
17:02
a carrot is like wonderfully roasted and then you
17:04
do it for the first time and you're like, oh, that's a
17:06
well roasted carrot or whatever it can be something
17:08
simple but like I think so much about
17:10
cooking and baking is like doing it for the first
17:12
time and Having success with it and being like,
17:14
oh, that's what I was trying
17:16
to achieve this whole time Like
17:18
making caramelized onions for the first time
17:21
very well. Totally. Yeah You're like wait,
17:23
I followed the instructions and they're still
17:25
white and wet. Yeah, so you mean
17:27
like I have to go Off
17:30
for this page. Yeah go further
17:33
Yeah, and that's like when
17:35
like, you know intuition and like taking into account like
17:37
very variability in the kitchen, but like That's
17:39
when you also start to like listen to yourself. You're like,
17:42
oh cooking is not just about following instructions It's about listening
17:44
to yourself and being like I know and this is ready
17:46
or when it's not ready Which is difficult
17:48
to do when you write books, but yeah,
17:50
very difficult It's very it must be very difficult when
17:52
you write books to kind of like figure I
17:55
can't imagine the technical writing It's actually hard
17:57
for me as a cookbook lover
18:00
to imagine the technical writing
18:03
aspect of, like, the
18:05
recipe itself. Yeah, I mean,
18:07
you wanna so badly, like, talk to the person
18:09
cooking, like, speak directly to you and be like,
18:11
try to imagine you in the
18:13
kitchen and you're like, well, she says this, but I only
18:16
have this, I wonder if that's okay. Like, me
18:18
anticipating that need and, like, writing that into the
18:21
recipe, but, like, so much
18:23
about writing a recipe is just, like, committing to, like, the
18:25
name and the flavor profile and writing it down. But
18:27
some of it's arbitrary. It's like, you could use a
18:30
shallot, you could use an onion, you could use a
18:32
fennel bulb, you could use mushrooms, who cares? But you
18:34
can't write a recipe that's like, do whatever, like, necessarily.
18:36
Like, some people really want the structure and the parameters.
18:39
Right. So
18:41
the technical aspect to that end is like, yeah,
18:43
there's a million ways to roast a chicken. I
18:46
just, this is a recipe this way. You know,
18:48
but it's not definitive. There's
18:51
more choice words in just a moment. If
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or a fresh food diet. But did you know
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19:45
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terms at discover.com/credit card. When
21:05
you were growing up, did you love food?
21:07
Like, was this, is this like, you
21:10
know, like when we all watch videos of Beyonce
21:13
singing at the age of two. And
21:15
we're like, oh, well, she was destined. Well, of
21:17
course she's. Yeah, I don't think I was destined
21:19
in that way, but I do. I
21:22
like I know people that like cook for a living
21:24
and there's like pictures of them in a little chef
21:26
hat at like eight. And I'm like, no, that wasn't
21:28
really my vibe. I think that I associated
21:31
food and cooking with like being happy
21:33
and like some of my best memories
21:36
as a kid had to do with
21:38
cooking. And I think that like as
21:40
a person who had a pretty complicated relationship with her
21:42
mom, she liked
21:44
to entertain a lot. And she
21:47
was always in her best mood when she
21:49
was cooking and entertaining and having people over
21:51
and all that stuff. So I like made
21:53
this very early association with like cooking
21:56
makes people like you cooking means you're
21:58
in a good mood, cooking, having people
22:00
over as. like happy. That is so
22:02
cool. It's so cool to me that you're
22:04
saying that because I mean,
22:06
because I love your cookbooks so
22:09
much and they really express that
22:12
they are so much about community
22:14
of people coming together. The
22:17
photography is beautiful. It's very,
22:19
it's very communal, very intentionally,
22:21
like about entertaining, like people
22:23
are coming over. Yeah, it's
22:25
pretty casual, but also beautiful.
22:27
Yeah. And like you can, it
22:30
can just be a source of joy, where so many people
22:32
phrase it in the like, this stresses me out and I
22:34
hate it. And then sometimes I'm like, well,
22:36
then don't do it. But yeah, I don't have to, I
22:38
don't have to do it. You can stop. So,
22:41
you know, what is also okay, so
22:43
you're, you're cooking, you're creating your writing
22:45
books, but you also
22:48
are educating, you're
22:50
also talking to
22:52
people, you're making videos, you're coaching
22:54
people, you're bringing people along, you're
22:56
developing a personality that
22:58
is interacting with an audience at the
23:00
same time that you're cooking and
23:03
developing rest. What was the I guess,
23:05
what was the impetus to add
23:08
that into your world? I
23:11
think that when I decide like part of what
23:13
I enjoyed about working in restaurants was learning. Yeah.
23:15
And I worked in restaurants for six or seven years.
23:18
And I don't believe people are ever through learning. I'm
23:20
I still learn how to do stuff all the time.
23:22
But right, I did feel like I sort of plateaued
23:24
in the restaurant space. And
23:26
it was like
23:28
no longer fulfilling to me to like not interact with
23:31
people in a way that like, I liked
23:33
teaching people in the kitchen, like within that.
23:35
And so when new people would come into
23:37
work there, I would train them. And I
23:39
really liked that part. But I
23:42
think it's because that's how I responded. And that's how I learned
23:44
how to cook I was really inquisitive.
23:47
Someone would tell me like, this is how you do this.
23:49
And I'd be like, why? Like,
23:51
I, I needed to know the how and the
23:53
why in order to fully appreciate it and do
23:56
it. But also if I understood that, then I
23:58
could understand other things. I never I
24:00
never liked just being told what to do. I
24:02
did need to sort of hear the reasoning behind
24:04
it, and I wanted, and craved, like more information,
24:06
which I think made me a better cook from
24:08
an early age. And I realized
24:11
that I liked that
24:13
as a recipient, and I don't think it was
24:16
like a conscious choice to be like, okay,
24:18
now I'm a teacher, and now I'm no longer the
24:20
student, I'm a teacher. But I just
24:22
found that like, I'm also
24:24
very verbose, and I think that like, if
24:27
you're gonna call me and say, how do I roast a
24:29
whole fish? I'm going to tell you
24:31
in the way that I would
24:33
want someone to tell me, and
24:35
that I'm gonna say, this is how you're gonna ask for
24:37
it, and here's why. Here's why you don't ask for the
24:39
other one. Here's what you're gonna do. And
24:42
if it doesn't release from the skillet, that means
24:44
X, Y, and Z, so keep cooking it. So
24:47
I think, yeah, like I really enjoy talking
24:49
to people the way that I would want to be talked to, you
24:51
know, that's like a general rule of how to live. But I
24:54
think, especially with regards to remembering how
24:56
I responded to being taught, and the
24:58
things that really stuck with me, and
25:00
how to like really communicate with people
25:02
in a way that feels
25:04
personal, that you are sort of in
25:07
effect, both entertaining and teaching at the same time. Which
25:09
I feel like, I mean, not to be
25:11
like, but you. But like, that was something that
25:13
I always really enjoyed about everything that you did,
25:16
which was, you know, you're sort
25:18
of watching for the information and the news, but
25:20
you're also being entertained. And it's so rare that
25:22
a person can do both so well, so. Oh,
25:24
thank you. Thank you for your time. It's
25:27
like fun to, I agree with you. I think it's
25:29
really fun to be very engaged with something, to really
25:31
love something so much that you just have to kind
25:33
of talk about it. Or you're
25:35
so interested in something. And then you've
25:37
created, you've built this whole world of
25:41
your career where you're just showing
25:44
people how to do things. It's so, it's
25:46
relaxing to me. I love watching
25:49
people cook. It's like one of my favorite
25:51
things. Find it like a meditation. And
25:54
it's a very learning. Are there like,
25:56
aha kind of moments in
25:58
your own cooking when you- you were learning at that
26:00
young age where you were like, oh, oh
26:03
my God, like something really connected
26:05
for you, like emulsifying a salad
26:07
or like something so simple, like
26:09
just. So I have a
26:11
recipe coming out in the summer. I don't know when this
26:13
is airing, but maybe it'll be around the same time. But
26:17
for like this eggplant pasta, right? And so
26:19
I feel like I
26:21
don't like doing eggplant on the stovetop because you need a
26:23
lot more oil than if you just roast it with olive
26:25
oil. Eggplant will like
26:28
needs a lot of oil to roast or to get color
26:31
and then you can sort of eat it as is like,
26:33
and then you're like, this is
26:35
good, but not as delicious or like the texture is weird
26:37
or, or I don't know, like something has always been off
26:39
for me, but I made a
26:41
pasta with it the other day and I added
26:43
so much pasta water back into the pasta
26:46
dish. And it's almost like if you think
26:48
about eggplant as a sponge that you're dehydrating
26:50
in the oven and then rehydrating with water,
26:53
the texture became so deliciously creamy, almost
26:55
like custardy, like as if I had
26:57
added eggs or something, which I've experienced
27:00
also when you like roast whole eggplant,
27:02
like the interior, like Baba ganoushi style
27:04
becomes like custardy, like
27:06
it's like steamed textured. And
27:09
I was like, Oh, if you roast the eggplant,
27:11
you concentrate the flavors, but then you add in
27:13
pasta water, like make this sauce
27:15
and somehow you get this like deeply
27:18
roasted flavor, but like really
27:20
delicious, saucy, fluffy texture of eggplant. And I was
27:22
like, wow, I can't believe I've never done this
27:24
before. That sounds delicious.
27:26
It's really good. Yeah. It's like
27:28
spicy. There's like some chili
27:31
paste in it and some like a very small
27:33
amount of tomatoes. I can't wait. I'll
27:35
send it to you. I'll give you a preview.
27:37
100% gonna make that. Okay. I like that. There's
27:40
some, man, pasta water
27:42
is ridiculously magical. That's silly.
27:45
I think most people that have
27:47
bad at home pasta experiences, but
27:50
think restaurant pasta is so good. It's because
27:52
of the pasta water. Right. Mm. Yep. I
27:54
agree. Do you, how was the shift for
27:56
you? What did that shift feel
27:58
like when you went from. I
28:00
like I work in restaurants and I work
28:02
in the food world and I work in
28:04
the food industry to suddenly not suddenly but
28:06
like To kind of open
28:08
your eyes one day and go millions of
28:10
people are making my recipes. I Don't
28:14
know. I was just kind of like whoa, like that's
28:16
right cool But it was also a different time like
28:18
the first time that had happened. It was like Instagram
28:21
was it was a thing but it wasn't what it is now Right.
28:24
There was no tick-tock. I wasn't on YouTube
28:26
like no one really knew who I was
28:29
Like it just was kind of like right
28:31
before Things blew up with
28:33
like people and food and like people started to pay attention Mm-hmm.
28:37
So it was sort of like This
28:40
magical thing, but it didn't necessarily feel like it
28:42
was happening to me It felt like it was
28:44
happening to the to the food, you know, okay,
28:46
like to the to the children Like
28:49
I had made these things and they're good
28:51
and people like them Right.
28:53
I didn't necessarily internalize it as like me.
28:55
I'm good. I internalized it as like yes
28:57
These cookies are so good, right and now
28:59
you know it too and like
29:02
it wasn't so much about me It
29:05
was right. It became about me later Okay,
29:08
I would say like the more popular the recipes
29:10
became then people are like well who's writing these
29:12
recipes and then it was me You know, like
29:14
it became right more quote personality focused I think
29:16
but at first it
29:18
definitely felt more like The
29:21
food was like the thing that was
29:23
honest a cent Yeah,
29:25
goodbye cookie was that do you remember
29:27
the first recipe that you wrote that
29:29
became like a huge sensation
29:32
like a big viral Sensation. Yeah, it
29:34
was the chocolate chunk shortbread cookies from
29:36
dining in Yeah, and
29:38
that's cool because that book it was my first book again
29:41
Like no one really knew who I was it wasn't like
29:44
I like a hundred thousand Instagram father if that like I don't
29:46
even think I had that many it was
29:48
just kind of like this thing that happened I remember I
29:50
was in on vacation with my best friend in Mexico at
29:53
the time Yeah, and this was like
29:55
in February of 2018 and I
29:59
looked I just watched my phone and all of a sudden
30:01
all these people started following me and people were commenting and
30:03
they were all talking about the cookie and someone reached out
30:06
to me from a magazine and was like, we want to
30:08
talk about these cookies. And I was like, what is happening?
30:11
Because it just hadn't
30:13
happened before. To anyone, I didn't have a frame
30:15
of reference. It wasn't something
30:17
that I aspired to. Do
30:19
you still make the cookies or are you Van Halen
30:21
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30:24
anymore. There's no more. No, I
30:27
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Do you, I want to talk to you about
33:48
making the show that you wish
33:51
to see in the world for
33:53
yourself. So, because I think many
33:55
of us have learned that the audience, really the only
33:57
audience you can guarantee
34:00
tea is yourself, really.
34:03
So what has it been
34:05
like? I guess what has it been
34:07
like for you making your home video
34:09
series? Okay, so I've sold two TV
34:11
shows in my short sweet life. None
34:13
of them have been made. So like,
34:15
and they're both great feeling. Yeah, it's
34:17
just great. Yeah, I've done like one
34:19
pre almost made one sold never made
34:22
one sold made never aired. So I
34:24
get closer every time. But
34:26
I sort of like used to think that if
34:28
I was really good at my job, and
34:31
I believed in myself, and I liked what I made that somebody
34:33
out there would see me and be like, Come
34:35
with me kid, like we're gonna give you all the things
34:37
that you want and ask for like, here's a TV show.
34:39
And here's a this and here's a that. Because you're good
34:41
and you deserve it, you know, right? And
34:44
that's just simply not the case now. And
34:46
so instead of feeling like down about it
34:48
or bad about it or bad about myself,
34:50
or being like, Oh, is it not good
34:52
enough? Like this gets made, how
34:54
come my stuff doesn't get made? Like, right? That
34:56
doesn't matter. And now I'm sort
34:58
of like, well, we live
35:00
in a blessed time where anyone can kind of make anything
35:02
they want and put it out there and hope that people
35:04
respond to it. And that's about
35:07
as much control as you can have. And
35:09
so now with home movies, I'm sort
35:12
of like, let's just
35:14
make a version of if
35:17
I were like, yeah, I'm gonna do like a
35:19
pretty straightforward cooking show. And it's gonna be like
35:21
really high quality. And it
35:23
could be on TV if it wanted to be, you know, like,
35:25
what does that look like? And it's me and
35:27
like a pretty small group of people who are all really good
35:29
at their jobs. And we're all like, cool,
35:32
like, let's do like, we don't have anyone telling us what to
35:34
do or how to do it or whatever.
35:36
So we really are being
35:38
like, okay, with a very small budget,
35:41
relying on like, you know, sporadic
35:44
advertising, we are trying
35:46
to stretch our, our legs
35:49
and be like, what would that look like if
35:51
we were to make like, a
35:53
TV show? Because for me in food
35:55
and in food content, quote unquote, I think
35:57
that there's so much like people are TikTok,
36:00
I'm like, I'm not because I'm almost 40. And I
36:02
just don't see that for me. I also don't think
36:04
I'd be good at it. And I
36:06
think it is a separate skill set that I
36:08
do not possess. But what I do possess is
36:10
this sort of more like old school, maybe outdated,
36:13
like definitely not like cutting edge, pretty
36:15
basic, like this person teaches you how to
36:17
cook something. And I'm like,
36:19
can't that be enough? It
36:21
can. I think it can. 100%
36:25
it can be. I
36:27
think it's very it's actually so helpful. It's
36:30
actually really healthy to go. I'm not. TikTok
36:33
is like a different animal. And
36:35
as you can appreciate it, you can love it.
36:38
It doesn't mean that you can execute on it
36:40
yourself. I would be fully sad. Oh
36:43
my God. We don't need to say that. I
36:45
can't tell you the number of times I've resisted
36:47
people's like need to get like just in a
36:50
workplace. They're like, you got to get on TikTok.
36:52
I'm like, please no. No
36:54
one wants this. I don't want, primarily
36:56
me. The world.
36:58
And that right now is the person I will listen to.
37:00
Yeah. You just have to like do
37:03
what is in your skillset and what you're good at
37:05
and what you're going to, I think
37:07
it's freeing. Yeah. It
37:10
is freeing. And I think that like the hope is
37:12
effectively that I one day do get to make
37:15
that like thing with a bigger budget and like.
37:17
Sure. Collaborate with people and like make something that
37:19
feels like I don't have to like read an
37:21
advertisement to make the work that I want to make.
37:24
But that is where we are, I
37:26
think. And most people find themselves in that position.
37:28
And I feel lucky that I'm even able
37:30
to pay for it a little bit. And I'm like, well, for now
37:32
that feels really good to me. I think
37:34
it's great. I feel like with the,
37:36
I feel like the entirety, obviously as
37:38
you've experienced this, I've experienced the entirety
37:41
of the entertainment industry
37:43
has contracted and kind
37:45
of, it's in a pretty bad
37:47
place. So actually taking the reins
37:49
for yourself is actually just satisfying
37:51
and great and so smart. Yeah.
37:54
I mean, you've seen it. Five different
37:56
iterations in that. Yeah. It's
37:58
very difficult to be like. Oh, where we are today
38:01
is not where we were when I started setting the
38:03
goals for myself. When you're like, okay, if I had
38:05
the goal 15 years ago to do X, Y, and
38:07
Z, I can't necessarily achieve
38:09
that goal today. And I think a lot of
38:11
people that have aspirations for entertainment,
38:14
especially like more traditional forms
38:16
like TV or now streaming, et cetera,
38:19
it's sort of like rudderless.
38:23
You know, you're like, how do I achieve this? Like I used
38:25
to feel like I had the idea of like how to get
38:27
there, but now I don't know. Yeah, just
38:29
I think it's like as simple as, I don't know,
38:31
I don't have any secrets. But it's
38:33
like, I think it's as simple as doing
38:35
the thing that you know that you love to do. And
38:38
that's the only thing. And then
38:40
whatever else comes is whatever else.
38:43
But as long as you're like
38:45
answering just like the core drive,
38:48
it's all going to be okay. Yeah,
38:50
I genuinely feel that way. And I
38:52
think that I've come to peace
38:54
with that. Like come to peace, come become a
38:56
piece. Yes, I hear you. I've
38:59
come to peace. I'm just being like,
39:01
oh, that's okay. Like I don't necessarily need to want
39:03
the thing that I wanted 10 years ago or five
39:05
years ago, because that thing is different now. Right.
39:07
Yeah. And so okay, wait, I didn't know
39:09
that you opened a general store. Can you
39:12
please tell me about what
39:14
is what I want to work there? You
39:16
can do a shift. You can sign up.
39:18
Can I? Yes. Okay, I
39:20
gotta say. It's in
39:22
a tiny town called Bloomville, New York. Yeah,
39:25
I bought a building in 2021, like very early
39:27
2021. And I was like, you know what? It
39:35
used to be a pizza restaurant slash
39:37
Airbnb, like a very beloved pizza establishment.
39:40
And I kind of was like, you know what? I don't want
39:42
to hedge my bets
39:44
that like, I
39:47
should rely on the internet for success. I
39:50
shouldn't rely on like things that I cannot
39:52
see, things that I cannot control for my
39:54
financial wellbeing, for my stability, for my creative
39:57
output, for my happiness. And so
39:59
I thought, okay, well, I've always wanted to open a grocery
40:01
store, this
40:05
could be a really great place for that. And
40:12
it just felt like a really cool
40:14
opportunity to
40:17
be like, I'm going to have a physical representation of
40:22
the thing that I've always done, it's
40:27
an obvious choice to be like, oh,
40:29
I'm going to do that. And
40:32
let's say the internet blows up tomorrow, let's
40:35
say Instagram shuts down, let's say
40:37
no one has access to social media and
40:40
being popular and getting paid for
40:42
advertisements based on your popularity. I
40:45
will have a full physical brick and mortar location
40:48
where I can live if I have to, I can make a living, I
40:51
can do something with that. I will have
40:53
a proper energy, but I'm
40:55
so glad that I did it. I
40:57
relate to what you're saying so
40:59
hard. I just
41:02
love like, it's very, I
41:04
grew up in Canada, just very pragmatic
41:06
to be like, no matter what happens,
41:09
you can retreat to this
41:11
place, people still will need to buy
41:13
things, people still need to learn how
41:15
to do stuff. And I'm like
41:17
right here, and I could live here, I could sleep on the... It's
41:21
like a worst case scenario, because we don't know what's
41:23
about to happen. We don't know if it's getting better,
41:25
if it's getting worse, and like interest rates were really,
41:27
really low, and I could afford it because most people
41:30
didn't consider it like a
41:32
viable residence because it was a
41:34
pizza restaurant, but not me. I was like, this
41:36
seems great. I could
41:38
live in a pizza restaurant. I am a
41:40
homesteader now, and I live in a restaurant.
41:42
Yeah, basically. How
41:45
do you eat when you're on the road? When
41:47
you're traveling around so much poorly, it's very difficult.
41:49
But I don't like doing it. I don't like
41:51
doing it anymore. Like going on the road
41:53
for like stretches at a time is not for me anymore.
41:56
That's like a young person's game. I just, I don't want to
41:58
do it. It's too hard.
42:00
It is too hard because you also like
42:02
you finish a thing and you're like, well,
42:04
everything's closed. So like, I'm not actually eating like
42:07
a full meal or like I'm rushing to eat
42:09
at like five and then I don't
42:11
know if my whole system gets thrown off.
42:14
It does. I've had a whole
42:16
reflection after doing some very bad travel in
42:19
airports where I was like, this
42:22
is your meeting people when people are in
42:24
an airport and you're traveling for work. People
42:26
are at a vulnerable spot. They
42:29
need to eat something. They're probably
42:31
upset. You know, you're like sad.
42:33
You're like, who's going to take care of the
42:35
weary traveler because it's nobody at the airport. Please,
42:38
they're not. And I'm like, there are such
42:40
simple fixes to this airport situation. I'm like,
42:42
please just offer people cheese and crackers. You've
42:44
got to have more cheese crackers. It's like
42:46
a part you got to show up. There's
42:48
got to be a free bowl of nuts
42:50
and a little wedge of Monterey Jack with
42:52
like a saltine. Can we have some
42:54
fresh bread? Can we just like have
42:57
some things? There are some such basic staff
42:59
of life issues at an airport where people
43:01
are there for 12 hours sometimes.
43:03
I think I would kill at an airport
43:05
if somebody gave me a lot of money
43:07
to develop and and like
43:10
design a restaurant concept for like four of
43:13
the top airports in the country. They
43:15
would crush. I would do such a good job
43:18
because you have like the Shake Shack and like,
43:20
you know, okay, that's an established burger restaurant
43:23
that like is in the airport and people
43:25
are like, oh wow, there's a Shake Shack here. Every
43:27
other restaurant in an airport is something you've never heard of.
43:30
You've never heard of it and they're making it's not a
43:32
place. Like there's no reason it should be them and not
43:34
me, you know, so I'm talking
43:37
like a meat and three style,
43:39
like beautiful, like rotisserie chicken with some vegetables. There's
43:41
like one soup. It's just it
43:43
can't be that hard. I'm like the sick.
43:46
You have advanced TSA
43:48
operations. You're letting on
43:50
Memorial weekend, like 30 million people traveled
43:53
and like reserved 10%
43:55
of the people to bring in rotisserie
43:57
chicken. Yeah, exactly. Somebody listening to this.
44:00
is like works in airport food service. And
44:02
it's like you have no idea how hard
44:04
it is. You guys are delusional. How dare
44:06
you? I'm like, how hard? Just
44:11
offer cheese, please. I
44:13
almost missed my flight the other day because I went
44:15
to a Joe in the Juice at some airport. And
44:18
I was like, Can I have the blah, blah, blah? And they're like,
44:20
Oh, we're out of kale. And I was like, Okay, I was like,
44:22
Can I have the tada? And they're like, We don't have any cucumbers.
44:25
And I was like, Can I have this? And they're like, Oh, we're
44:27
actually out of that too. And I was like, and I just I was like, I
44:29
gotta go. Yeah, you're just like,
44:31
Can I get some cheese that's in a cup?
44:34
And they're like, Yeah, you're literally bringing ingredients and
44:36
food to like, the most inconvenient
44:38
place in any given city. I
44:41
understand. And I don't I never begrudge the people
44:43
that work at the place. I was not at the
44:45
lady. I was just like, no, where's
44:49
the road to surgery? Yeah, it's not. It's not
44:51
the lady's fault. No, of course, that's our life
44:53
to be rude to airplane
44:55
or airport service people.
44:58
Absolutely not. But we could have
45:01
on a very basic level, a sweet
45:03
green. Yeah, I'm sure they're working on. I'm
45:05
sure I'm sure they'd love to be in a common or
45:08
you know, Alison Roman. I
45:10
just want you to do that so
45:13
badly. It was just because Alison Roman and they'll be
45:15
like, What do you have there? And I'll be like,
45:17
you'll have to come and find out. You'll have to.
45:19
It's just a variety of deliciousness. Do you like watching
45:21
because this is my last question because I
45:24
need to know, do you like watching the bear? Can
45:26
you watch bear? Don't you love it? I
45:28
love that show so much. I mean, I just am a fan of
45:30
the show. I'm a fan of the actors in it. I'm a fan
45:32
of the script. I'm a fan of I think they've done such
45:35
a great job of kind
45:38
of showing the emotional complexities of what it's
45:40
like to work in a restaurant, but also
45:42
tapping into the emotional complexities of the type
45:44
of person that decides to work in a
45:46
restaurant. It's not a regular individual.
45:48
There's some stuff going on. And as a
45:51
person who experiences that themself, I'm like, Wow,
45:53
I talk about feeling seen, you know, but
45:55
oh, yeah, I love it. I think it's
45:57
a great show. It's a great show. I
45:59
feel also that they capture the urgency of
46:02
being behind like in
46:04
a restaurant. Yeah, it's stressful a lot. You're like,
46:06
Oh, this is stressful. Just like it is stressful
46:08
to work in a restaurant. Just like, yes, it
46:10
makes my blood pressure. It's just, and I love
46:12
it. Yeah, the backstory of like the, the families
46:14
and the like, it really paints
46:17
an accurate portrayal of like, here's how
46:19
a person who decides to dedicate themselves
46:21
to working in a restaurant is made.
46:23
You know, here's where they come from.
46:25
And here's what they're seeking in a
46:27
restaurant environment and like why the restaurant
46:29
environment is like that. It's like all
46:31
woven in together. It's fascinating subject to
46:33
me. Yeah, it's a beautiful
46:35
tapestry. Well, I thank you so deeply
46:37
for this. This was so fun for
46:40
me. Oh, same. I really am
46:42
just such a fan of yours. I can't say it enough times.
46:44
You're, you're so important to
46:47
culture. Well, you're important
46:49
to culture. Also,
46:51
thank you. That
46:59
was Alison Roman and I had no choice
47:01
but to look up one thing. She has
47:03
had so much success with online recipes. So
47:05
I needed to know what was the most
47:08
searched for recipe last year.
47:10
Well, turns out in 2023,
47:12
the most
47:15
people Googled how to make
47:17
a McDonald's grimace
47:19
shake. I find
47:21
that so shocking. I
47:24
have never tried one. It
47:27
definitely sounds scary and
47:31
purple and disgusting,
47:33
but also maybe delicious.
47:36
Okay. Thank you so much for
47:38
joining us. I'm Samantha Bee. See you next
47:40
week for some more choice words. Thank
47:56
you for listening to choice words, which was created
47:58
by and is hosted by The
48:01
show is produced by Xvia Bierreich-Reinstein with
48:03
editing and additional producing by Josh Richmond.
48:05
We are distributed by Lemonado Media and
48:08
you can find me at Reel Sam
48:10
B on Instagram and X. Follow
48:13
Choice Awards wherever you get your podcasts or
48:15
listen ad-free on Amazon Music with your Prime
48:17
membership. Hey
48:19
everyone, it's David Duchovny. When
48:22
it comes to confidently managing her finances,
48:24
she's a beginner. Join her on The
48:26
Doe, Lemonado Media's new 10 episode podcast
48:28
series as she dives into better understanding
48:30
the financial trapdoors that any of us
48:32
could fall into. If you've ever
48:35
stayed in a bad relationship to avoid moving out
48:37
costs or found yourself swimming in debt, you're not
48:39
alone. Each week she'll be exploring
48:41
all types of financial flops and money myths that
48:43
stand in the way of our financial freedom. On
48:45
this show, Cash is Queen. We hardly know her,
48:47
but we're determined to be her friend. You can
48:49
listen to The Doe on Amazon Music or wherever
48:52
you get your podcasts. Hey
48:55
everyone, it's David Duchovny. Did you
48:57
ever feel like a failure? Trust
48:59
me, I get it. Hell, I've spent
49:01
my whole life almost feeling like a
49:04
failure. It's appropriate though
49:06
because on Fail Better, my new podcast
49:08
with Lemonado Media, exploring the
49:10
world of failure, how it holds us
49:13
back, propels us forward, and
49:15
ultimately shapes our lives is the whole
49:17
point. Each week
49:19
I'll chat with artists, athletes, actors,
49:21
and experts about how
49:23
our perceived failures have actually been our
49:26
biggest catalysts for growth, revelation,
49:29
and even healing. Through
49:31
these conversations, I hope we can learn how
49:33
to embrace the opportunity of failure and
49:36
Fail Better together. Fail
49:38
Better is out now. You can listen ad-free
49:41
on Amazon Music or wherever you get
49:43
your podcasts.
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