0:17

Okay , welcome to episode 66 of

0:19

the Premier League , or a bunch of a , uh

0:23

, um

0:30

, let's see . You'll know by now , dear

0:32

listeners , if I managed to get the bleep

0:34

in the right place in that , because the last time , last

0:37

time , I used that word , I didn't

0:39

. So we'll see

0:41

, won't we ? Uh , everyone's here . Uh

0:43

, adam's here . How you doing .

0:45

I'm good , thank you , I'm . I'm a phone , I've been , uh

0:47

, I was ill , um ill last

0:49

week , including getting into bed on Thursday

0:52

night after work and just it , fully cloaked

0:54

in my , in my work , uh , in

0:56

in work trials and shirt , and then just

0:59

hallucinating for five hours , which , if

1:01

you've never hallucinated I

1:03

mean I've never , I've never done like

1:05

LSD or shrooms , mom

1:07

, dad , if you're listening um

1:11

, but I can imagine that

1:13

that's what it's sound , that's what it , that's

1:15

what it's like , because it , unless you've done

1:17

, unless you've hallucinated , it is really

1:19

weird and it's very , very difficult

1:21

to describe what this

1:23

, this , this intro took a weird turn

1:25

.

1:25

I'm not gonna lie we're gonna get

1:27

back to over to him . We're gonna talk

1:30

about points , the directions and how , the Premier League of Cunts

1:32

. We'll get there , but , um , I've got to

1:34

note that . Uh

1:36

, adam , what did you hallucinate like

1:39

?

1:41

I think at one point I was like

1:43

at

1:46

work and then I was like on a farm

1:48

, and that's about it as I remember

1:50

. And that's the point of hallucinations you can't remember

1:53

, like immediately afterwards

1:55

, what the fuck happened and it's a bunch

1:57

of dreams , as in you were awake , right

1:59

? yeah , they're like . It's like . It's like what

2:02

I imagine tripping would be like , where

2:05

you're sort of awake but but

2:07

not asleep , not awake , and sort of some weird

2:09

hybrid mixed

2:11

in with like chronic nausea , a banging

2:14

headache and , um

2:16

, like terrible shivers and

2:18

hot sweats . So I don't recommend it .

2:20

It's not very , it's not great no , uh

2:23

, no , you're not selling it . Glad you're feeling better

2:25

now . Um

2:27

, andy , how you doing hi Austin

2:29

, I'm good .

2:30

Thank you , much better than Adam experience , no

2:32

hallucinations for me and

2:34

uh , looking forward to um an

2:37

hours emitting discussion because , let's face it , it's

2:39

been a quite few days . Not much has happened .

2:41

I know we were all hallucinating that

2:43

everything was going all right until that last Friday

2:45

. Ben

2:48

, how you doing ?

2:51

yeah , I'm good . Uh , you know

2:53

I spent the last couple of days dig into

2:55

the uh reports that we're gonna talk

2:57

about , so , yeah , that's been a joyous , a

2:59

joyous read . But yeah , other than that , all good

3:01

awesome

3:04

.

3:05

Um , all right , so

3:07

let's dive into it . We're

3:09

gonna talk a little bit , we are a little bit , we're probably

3:11

probably quite a lot about the

3:14

, the points deduction , and look

3:16

they were recorded . This on , uh

3:18

, on Tuesday , the announcement

3:20

made last Friday , a lot of reaction

3:22

, a lot of anger . Um

3:25

, you know , obviously , you know we're

3:27

all fans , I think so

3:30

no surprise what any of us feel about

3:32

it generally . I think you know you've seen

3:34

from the football world a sort of shocker

3:36

the how the Premier

3:38

League have behaved . So you

3:41

know we're not gonna go round , or we're not gonna start

3:43

, at least just , you know , expressing the

3:45

fact that we all think this decision's ridiculous

3:48

. I think we all know that and it's been said a lot

3:50

we want to think about . You know some

3:52

of the context a little bit that maybe hasn't

3:54

been talked about a ton elsewhere . And

3:56

then what you know what happens . You know what happens

3:59

from now . So , ben , I'm gonna start with you because

4:01

you know , without not asking

4:03

you to sort of get into the sort of sourcing

4:05

of this , but you've got a bit of context

4:07

on some of the politics around this . That is because

4:10

you know the decision . I think

4:12

it's worth maybe saying the

4:14

decision to deduct us 10 points makes absolutely

4:16

no sense . I mean it's , it's it's

4:19

not not defendable on the

4:21

basis of any

4:23

, you know , logic or or

4:25

rationality , and

4:27

no one can , no one's even attempted

4:29

to . I mean , the Premier League have not even attempted to

4:32

explain , you know the why

4:34

they feel that this is appropriate

4:36

. Because you know it's

4:38

the biggest point , it's the biggest penalty ever

4:41

imposed by the Premier League on any club for anything

4:43

. So what the Premier League

4:45

are saying is that , also , over spending my 19

4:47

million pounds is

4:49

the worst thing that any Premier League club

4:52

has ever done . Um , wouldn't

4:54

be a very mind . Six of them tried to leave the league

4:56

. Um , so you know , obviously

4:58

that's not true and they don't really believe that . So

5:00

you go . Well , why the hell are they doing this

5:03

then ? And it's the political context

5:05

that is . You know , um

5:08

is really , uh , is

5:10

really key . So , ben

5:12

, I'm gonna hand to you now and just give us a little bit of background

5:14

, what's been going on with Westminster and the

5:18

right potential regulation and all of those things

5:20

, and that really does it . You know , that's . That's

5:22

really the thing you've got to understand , to understand

5:25

what the fuck the yeah

5:29

, totally .

5:30

And um , to start

5:32

that , I'm going to jump back a little bit . Uh , you know

5:35

a couple of a

5:37

couple of years now to um , to when the

5:39

Super League sort of uh failed

5:41

to get off the ground . When

5:43

that happened , there was a ? Uh

5:46

, a very swift move by um

5:48

the government , in recognition that

5:51

they couldn't or didn't want

5:53

to see it was Boris Johnson's government

5:55

at the time um , they

5:57

didn't want to see a situation where Premier

6:00

League football , football , the football

6:02

pyramid , was potentially

6:04

at risk of um

6:06

being taken away by a

6:08

group of clubs who were making unilateral

6:10

decisions like that . So what they proposed

6:14

, or what they announced , was what was

6:16

called the fan-led review . So this was a

6:18

, a review into lots

6:20

of different things about football . It was , it

6:23

was . It covered uh regulation

6:25

, it covered stuff around um

6:28

, community assets , owners and directors

6:30

, tests , loads , loads of different stuff . The

6:34

fan-led review uh was led

6:36

by a member

6:38

of parliament who's a conservative MP , called Tracy Crouch

6:41

, who is a full declaration friend of mine

6:43

, um , who is a

6:45

FA qualified

6:47

coach great female footballer

6:50

actually , um , and also probably

6:52

used to be the sports minister , one of the most well

6:54

qualified people to run um this

6:56

, this review , the review published in

6:59

November 2021 , and one of the

7:01

recommendations of the

7:04

fan-led review was that there

7:06

should be established an independent regulator

7:09

to essentially ensure

7:12

that clubs in

7:14

the Premier League and across the football pyramid were

7:17

abiding by the

7:19

rules , regulations , governance

7:21

, that they should be , that they were following the rules , because

7:25

the belief was that there was a

7:27

that that

7:29

might not necessarily be the case

7:32

in the current system where , essentially

7:35

, you have the Premier

7:37

League operating as executive

7:41

and legislature . Right , the Premier League

7:43

is made up of other Premier League clubs and therefore

7:45

it's in the interest of the Premier League as the organization

7:48

to look after the clubs because they

7:50

are a part of themselves

7:52

. Like the Premier League , don't want to piss off

7:55

all their clubs by overly regulating

7:57

them , because then the super-leaders right . So that's

7:59

like . That's the backdrop . So

8:02

what then has happened is

8:05

, in response to the

8:08

fan-led review , announcing

8:11

or recommending an independent regulator

8:13

, which the government announced their intention to take

8:15

forward , the Premier League now

8:17

feel under a heck of a lot of pressure to demonstrate

8:20

that they can actually regulate right

8:22

. So what we're seeing now and we're

8:24

seeing it with you know , we'll talk about

8:26

man City's charges , but what we're seeing with man City

8:28

, what we're seeing with Chelsea and what we're seeing with

8:30

this Reviton is , is , is is the

8:32

death throats of the Premier

8:34

League desperately trying to prove

8:37

that they don't need this independent

8:39

regulator because look , look

8:42

, government , we can do it ourselves . Look

8:44

how harsh we were on Everton . So

8:46

we are at a . We

8:48

are to Austin's point . There is

8:50

absolutely no way . This is the most serious

8:53

thing a Premier League club has ever done in

8:55

terms of breaching regulation

8:57

. Not a cat in hell's chances

8:59

. This is the most serious thing that Premier League club

9:01

has done . But we've been

9:03

and this is very evident we've

9:06

been unlucky enough slash

9:08

dumb enough to do it at precisely

9:11

the moment . The Premier League

9:13

need to demonstrate that they can regulate

9:15

themselves , and that's the political

9:18

sort of element of this . There

9:20

are lots of people in rooms of the Premier League going

9:23

we need to show we can regulate , otherwise

9:25

we're going to get regulated , we're

9:27

going to get regulation forced upon us , and

9:30

that is like the . That's

9:32

the political backdrop that I think is worth

9:34

understanding when we think about this .

9:43

Yeah . So I mean , and I think you know there's

9:45

a I've been thinking about this a lot

9:47

and , and you know you can sort of see

9:49

that they've . You know you're seeing life

9:51

, sometimes people over correct and

9:53

over compensate and it's quite possible

9:55

that actually the way this plays out ends

9:58

up reducing the Premier League's credibility , because

10:00

now the independent

10:02

panel , there'll be an appeal . We'll get to that in a

10:05

second . We'll talk about you know what the potential implications

10:07

that are . So the point reduction might

10:09

be reduced , but the Premier League

10:11

asked for 12 points . That's the thing

10:13

the Premier League can't change is

10:15

that they believe that Everton's breach

10:17

19 million pounds one breach of

10:19

the rules , was worthy of a 12 point

10:22

deduction . So I think , adam , I think maybe

10:24

you did the math on this when we were talking in

10:26

our group chat but if you , if Manchester

10:28

City , found guilty of 115

10:31

point deductions , then you've

10:33

got to , you've got to deduct them . You

10:35

know nearly 1500 points , I mean

10:37

, which would roll over seasons , a season so

10:39

they'd get relegated . It'd be quite beautiful . They'd get

10:41

relegated every year for

10:43

around 12 years and

10:47

eventually , eventually they'll

10:49

start coming back again . So it obviously

10:51

just it feels like in

10:54

an attempt , ben , as you say , to make a short term

10:56

point , they've actually

10:58

created a rod for their own back .

11:00

Yes , and

11:03

the other problem is as well is

11:05

that they have created a situation

11:07

by letting this stuff

11:09

go for so long they're

11:12

past the point where they can meaningfully

11:14

do anything about it because

11:16

, okay , they recommend

11:18

a 12 point deduction , we get a 10 point deduction . Chances

11:20

are that goes down on appeal , like

11:23

they're in a situation

11:25

now where we're certainly going to be advocating

11:28

for similar punishments to every

11:30

other club that's breached any sort of rule

11:32

in the last 12 years . So the problem was , is that they

11:34

were so they say fair , because they

11:36

thought they didn't need to be to enforce it

11:38

because , you know , there

11:40

wasn't the specter of independent

11:42

regulator coming over the hill . So they were . Incredibly

11:45

, they say fair about enforcing

11:47

it in the first place . And what the problem

11:49

is now is that they're now over correcting because

11:51

they're in this desperation mode

11:53

. But when you've been so , they say

11:55

fair , you have , you have so many

11:58

different charges that have built

12:00

up and built up , and built up , and that's how man City , that's

12:02

how the Premier League ends up charging man City with 115

12:05

different things . That's

12:07

, that's the absurdity of it . So they

12:09

are and I have fuck all sympathy

12:12

for them because they've brought this entirely upon

12:14

themselves . But the Premier League have left themselves

12:16

in a really dumb situation

12:19

because of their actions previously , when

12:21

they they basically didn't care about enforcing

12:23

this stuff . You could essentially do what you liked

12:25

and , knowing that no

12:28

one was really going to get on to you about it

12:30

. And then and that's great until it

12:32

there's a problem and the Super League was the catalyst

12:35

that created the problem and now they're dealing with we're all

12:37

dealing with the consequences of it .

12:40

Yeah , andy , what's your thoughts and reflections on

12:42

this , having sort of lived in the last , you know , lived

12:44

through this in the last few days ?

12:46

Yeah , like everybody else , I

12:48

was genuinely shocked

12:50

when the 10 points were announced

12:53

. I just didn't think in a month Sundays

12:55

, that we'd be hit with

12:58

anything like that sort of sanction

13:00

. What Ben said

13:02

about the political sort of aspect

13:04

of it is really fascinating because

13:07

I mean just to put some some meat on

13:09

the bone of . Of , however

13:11

, to 19.5 million pound breach

13:13

relates to a club

13:16

entering administration in 2009,

13:18

. When the government went into administration

13:20

, so they literally went out of money , went

13:22

bust , entered into administration

13:25

, 80 jobs were lost from that football

13:27

club and that only

13:29

attracts a nine point penalty . So

13:32

the idea that Everton's misdemeanor

13:35

is worse is is simply

13:37

the more that I've thought

13:39

about it since Friday . It just

13:41

gets more and more ludicrous

13:43

. I agree with what's

13:46

, as previously been said , the Premier League

13:48

. I just digging themselves a bigger hole here because

13:51

because they

13:53

, whatever happens to Everton going forward

13:56

and we can come on to that in a bit when we

13:58

talk about a possible appeal and

14:01

forward the Premier League , I just that

14:04

they're like a sort of running

14:06

around with their pants on fire because they

14:09

, they , they give the impression

14:11

. Somebody said in another podcast that

14:13

football for all its multi billion

14:15

pound , you know money

14:17

, all the money that goes through it and it's a multi

14:19

billion pound sport and business

14:22

industry . It's run really

14:24

, really badly , and this

14:26

episode demonstrates to

14:28

me that that's entirely

14:31

the case , because

14:34

it

14:36

, just as every day that goes

14:38

by , the 10 points is is

14:41

utterly completely ludicrous . And

14:43

somebody got buckled on the echo podcast

14:46

made the point that if Everton finish

14:48

six places low in the

14:50

league because we've , if

14:53

this 10 pointed auction sticks and

14:55

Everton finished six places low

14:58

in the league than we would have done that's

15:00

effectively a 12 million pound fine

15:02

as well , because you lose two million pounds

15:04

for every place

15:07

you finish in the league . So

15:09

there's that aspect to

15:11

it as well which I hadn't even thought of . Every day

15:13

that goes on there's some sort of new

15:15

aspect of it that either you think of

15:17

yourself or somebody else

15:20

mentions to you , and

15:22

I'm just I

15:24

mean Ben's ever done . Everton

15:27

have just , I mean , the wrong place at the wrong

15:29

time , as as is , as

15:31

is , you know , so often the case with Everton

15:33

we have , we have , we have properly ever

15:35

to .

15:36

This is what we've done .

15:39

And what , what , sorry . What one thing as well is

15:41

is is what ? What

15:44

are the mitigating factors that I thought

15:46

would surely help the club is

15:48

the fact that they've been working with the

15:50

Premier League for two years and

15:52

being completely honest and open and , you

15:54

know , not withholding any documents or anything

15:56

like anything like that , and

15:58

that doesn't appear to have made

16:00

one jot a difference at

16:02

all in terms of the punishment

16:04

we've got . I mean , some of man cities charges

16:07

actually relate to obstructing

16:09

the investigation . It's not just

16:11

financial jiggery , pokery , it's

16:14

deliberately obfuscating the investigator

16:17

to reprocess .

16:19

Yes , which makes it makes the context

16:21

worse that they've decided that Everton

16:23

who complied , and essentially

16:26

a difference of opinion , right , like I mean , that's what it comes

16:28

down to and to some degree , okay , the Premier

16:30

League get to make the rules , like in a way , like

16:32

that you know , in the end they win . But

16:34

the fact that you can

16:36

have a situation where a club complies

16:39

or cooperate with an investigation

16:42

, which the League acknowledged that Everton did

16:44

, and

16:47

you still say that's worthy of the worst penalty

16:49

Amongst the many problems with this , gives

16:51

you nowhere to go when someone doesn't

16:53

comply , as man City are

16:55

. We know they've got lawyers

16:59

trying to tangle this thing up

17:01

in bureaucracy just

17:03

to delay it , and I will come to you in a second , but I

17:05

just want to . I forget Another thing that , andy

17:07

, you were talking about things that don't make any sense . There's

17:10

a really great point in an athletic article , I think yesterday

17:12

by Patrick Boylan , about potential

17:14

, these five clubs

17:17

who potentially can sue us now , and

17:20

how can five clubs sue

17:22

us for getting relegated

17:24

? Well , I'm well

17:26

, I'm going to stay up if Everton

17:28

got relegated . Well , interestingly

17:30

.

17:30

Well , just on that point , nottingham Forest

17:32

are one of the clubs . Well , they've not been

17:35

relegated , they've never been relegated , so

17:37

how ? they can now and

17:40

also the fact again , I am obviously

17:43

not a lawyer in this instance , but

17:47

that you know , in the way of the world , that's not going to stop

17:49

me from having an opinion anyway . The financial

17:51

breach relates to the 2021-22

17:53

season . So Leicester

17:56

and Southampton ? Well , first of all , southampton

17:58

and Leeds would have got relegated even

18:01

if Everton had had a 10 point deduction

18:03

last season . So

18:05

that's one point , mate , one point there

18:07

. But you're absolutely right . Only one

18:09

club would have stayed up if

18:12

Everton would have got relegated . Is

18:14

that not true ?

18:16

You're referring to the previous . You're

18:18

referring to the previous season , when

18:22

it was between us and Burnley . So

18:24

Burnley are one of the clubs , and

18:26

if we were , you're right , because the 2021-22

18:29

season that's when it ended , that's when the period of financial

18:31

irregularity has been investigated

18:34

, that was the end of that period , that's

18:37

where the investigation has been about to that point , and

18:39

Burnley obviously were the ones that

18:41

got relegated , rather than us , because

18:44

we stayed up by , I think , two points . So if

18:46

it applied , then Burnley . If

18:48

you're going to say , like any , what clubs have a legitimate

18:51

claim , it's Leicester

18:53

and Burnley , for the last

18:56

season and

18:58

the season before , respectively . They're

19:00

the clubs . Forrest got relegated

19:02

Forrest I mean God

19:05

knows what the forrest are trying to get after

19:07

, because

19:09

they've got absolutely zero credibility

19:14

in this whole thing

19:16

and no reason at all

19:18

to be warranted a claim . So I don't know what

19:21

they're really thinking about . But

19:24

the one and then

19:26

Southampton and Leeds , they've again , they've got none

19:28

at all . I

19:32

mean , leeds would have leaped frog does last season

19:34

, as would have Leicester , but Leeds would have gone down

19:36

anyway , so it didn't really make a difference . I

19:38

mean , if you want to talk about the two million

19:40

quid that they would have got by going one place above

19:42

, okay

19:45

maybe , but if we got the 10

19:47

point deduction last , year , leicester would have stayed up right .

19:50

That's basically what happened . That's the one that

19:52

would make any sense is you

19:54

say ? And if we've got the 10 point

19:56

deduction the year before .

19:57

Burnley would have stayed up . But

19:59

the problem with this is that you're not . You

20:03

can't project the 10 points onto a specific season

20:05

because the 10 point deduction , if it

20:07

remains , that is for a breach across multiple years . So

20:12

one of the things you can't

20:14

just go well , if that had been applied that season , we'd

20:16

have stayed up because , like well , but it wouldn't have been , because

20:19

we can't be charged for two years ago because the charges

20:21

cumulative

20:24

for breaching it over three years . And

20:28

this , I think , is why , again , no lawyer . This

20:32

is why I think those clubs are gonna have a real issue

20:34

proving like harm and causality

20:36

, because , like , what is our overspending

20:39

over those three

20:41

years actually worth in

20:43

points terms ? How do you quantify

20:45

that ? You can't quantify

20:48

like , oh well , it's worth X number of points , it's

20:51

worth X number of points this year and

20:53

Y number of points that year . No , it's a fine

20:55

of 10 points for behavior over three years

20:57

. You can't then go oh well , we're

21:00

gonna apply five points to that year and three points

21:02

to that year and two points to that year , and therefore

21:04

that leads to this Like that's

21:07

. The commission literally doesn't do

21:09

that . It's 10 points for a behavior

21:12

over a three year period . I don't

21:14

see how you can then reasonably pass

21:16

that out to identify

21:19

specific cause

21:21

, specific effects from

21:23

that deduction .

21:24

Yeah , and especially given that .

21:26

But also we got fucking worse

21:28

because of all that spending the

21:32

idea that we bought Neil

21:35

fucking Mopey .

21:38

I mean . Here's all I mean . This is what evidence I

21:40

mean . For me this would be evidence like defense , because

21:45

those clubs , on the face of

21:47

it , they didn't lose

21:50

out . They lost out because they got relegated

21:52

in our expense , as they view it . But

21:55

just before we started the

21:58

pod , I was checking something , cause I was interested

22:00

in seeing , like , by that logic

22:02

, surely other clubs that we took points off

22:04

could also stake a claim because

22:08

, like- .

22:08

Yeah , like any team , right , Every team- .

22:12

And here's the perfect example Arsenal , in the

22:14

end of the 2021-22 season

22:16

which is again reminder

22:19

, that's the period up to that

22:21

is being investigated they finish

22:24

on 69 points , two points

22:26

behind Spurs . We beat

22:28

them at home to one that season

22:30

. So if

22:32

you wanna talk so like , if

22:34

you wanna go down that road , arsenal

22:37

could also have a claim as well , because

22:39

they can claim that that and then you obviously

22:41

open up a huge kind

22:44

of worms about well , we can make

22:46

a claim because I've been to us and it's just it's

22:48

not gonna work , and

22:51

that you can't escape that logical

22:53

, you can't

22:55

escape that logical inference that if the relegated

22:58

clubs do that , therefore

23:00

other teams get a claim

23:02

as well , because you can't say relegation

23:05

is is

23:09

worse for one team than it is for another team

23:12

doing something else . It just won't , it's

23:14

not gonna wash , yeah .

23:18

Yeah , so just to sorry , andrew , go

23:20

on .

23:20

Yeah , just another thing I'll add

23:23

is , again , I

23:25

don't know if obviously

23:27

the breach is specifically

23:29

for the 2021-22 season

23:31

and it obviously the

23:34

investigation period is over three seasons

23:36

, but

23:41

can any team

23:43

that suffered outside that three year period

23:45

have any sort of claim

23:47

as well ? I wouldn't have thought they could , because

23:51

all these things surely are

23:53

at the times that

23:55

the incident directly occurred

23:57

.

23:59

Yeah , I couldn't say anything . I couldn't see a situation

24:02

where a club who wasn't who

24:05

was impacted outside of that window

24:07

could have any . I mean I don't think

24:09

those clubs have a pretty , have a good claim in the

24:12

best times , but I also don't think

24:14

that . I also

24:16

don't think that , certainly don't think

24:18

any club impacted outside of that would be . For

24:20

those of you listening to this , which

24:22

is all of you , because it's a podcast format , austin has

24:24

just reappeared with a pizza , so

24:28

whilst we've been sort of so , we've been sort of host

24:30

to us for the last two minutes which you may have noticed , you

24:32

may have not it might have all worked perfectly . No , it's great

24:34

.

24:35

We should just we should just be an .

24:36

Austin off for future podcasts

24:38

we could just do this without him .

24:40

It's like that Belgium didn't have a government for

24:42

eight months and GDP went up by 2%

24:44

, and

24:51

I'm usually the one to eat pizza during

24:53

this podcast .

24:54

So , ben and Andrew , it's your turn next week

24:56

.

24:56

Yeah , at some point , at some point , I'll eat a pizza during this podcast

24:59

.

24:59

Good pizza , nothing else , that's a plan I can

25:01

definitely get on board with .

25:02

Yeah , yeah , totally yeah . So

25:04

like I think that the whole , the

25:08

whole that thing's massive , that is sorry

25:10

, sorry . Austin's just now eating the world

25:12

the largest pizza pizza .

25:14

By the way , is that a whole pizza as well ? Is

25:16

that an Xbox style slice with a whole like

25:18

okay ?

25:20

I've got a whole pizza , do you want

25:22

? I mean no , no .

25:25

I mean this is boring for the listeners , but like after

25:27

the podcast , definitely .

25:29

Yeah , yeah , okay yeah it's

25:31

beautiful , made in New York . Pizza on on

25:33

the Amsterdam and 83rd Street can recommend

25:36

, ben , please continue . I went there . I went there

25:38

. Yeah , carry on .

25:39

It's good . It's good pizza . Anyway , enough of the pizza

25:41

chat , back to either Premier

25:43

League of Austin , make notes , make

25:45

notes , make notes , make notes , make notes , make

25:47

notes , make notes , make

25:49

notes , make notes , make

25:51

notes . I wanted

25:53

to dive into like the report

25:56

, specifically because I think I'm and I don't

25:58

say this in some sorts of you know , I'm a very bored

26:00

man . I actually read the

26:02

full report , cover to cover , or however

26:04

many pages of it is there . There are and

26:08

it has some interesting stuff in there A couple

26:10

of things that I want to talk about to just dispel

26:12

a couple of myths , but also a

26:14

couple of things that just kind of don't make sense

26:16

about the justification of it

26:18

, about the how they've arrived at

26:20

the 10 points . So let's say two things very quickly

26:22

. One there

26:25

is this thing floating around that

26:28

Everton fans keep saying and

26:30

we've put it on a banner for the Manchester

26:33

United game that

26:35

the panel says , or the report

26:37

says , that we incurred no sporting advantage

26:40

, and that's

26:42

not true . What

26:44

the report says is that

26:46

they don't believe Everton's breach

26:50

was a cynical attempt

26:52

to gain

26:54

a sporting advantage . But they

26:56

do say that any breach of

26:59

PSR , the

27:01

profit and sustainability rules , any breach

27:04

automatically infers

27:06

, can be inferred to bring

27:09

with it a sporting advantage , because you are literally

27:11

just spending more money than your

27:13

competitors , right ? So that form naturally brings

27:16

with it sporting advantage . So the

27:18

report doesn't say we got no sporting advantage . The

27:20

report says there is a sporting advantage

27:22

to spending too much money . Everton

27:24

didn't do it on purpose , it wasn't a cynical

27:27

, deliberate attempt . But there is a sporting

27:29

advantage because we just spent more

27:31

money , right ? So that's part

27:33

of that . For a second . The other thing I

27:35

want to mention is the way they reach 10

27:37

points , because it's

27:40

weird they

27:43

don't ever actually end up justifying it . But

27:46

there's a bit in the report where they talk about what the

27:48

Premier League asked

27:50

for . So in

27:53

the EFL there

27:55

is essentially a calculation that is done

27:57

, which is that the baseline is six

28:00

points . So you start at six points , you get

28:02

six points for any breach , however small , and

28:05

then every additional £5

28:08

million brings with

28:10

it a one point additional

28:13

, a one point additional reduction

28:16

, right . So now

28:19

the committee say that they rejected

28:21

that , that they don't use that as the framework

28:24

. They don't use anything else as the framework . By

28:26

the way , there's no other contextual

28:28

basis for how they get to 10 points . It's literally

28:30

like finger in the air and dartboard stuff . But

28:32

it is sort of convenient that

28:34

the Premier League suggested a

28:36

framework which , if

28:38

you do the maths 19.5 , 20

28:41

, you're close enough right gets

28:43

you to a 10 point deduction . The committee

28:45

say we're not following that framework . Oh , but

28:47

coincidentally we've also arrived at a 10 point

28:49

deduction . And then the final thing I would say

28:52

and this is the odd thing

28:54

about the mitigation stuff

28:56

Some of the mitigation

28:58

stuff I think is fairly weak from our

29:00

point of view . Like there

29:03

is this whole discussion about player X

29:05

, who was , you

29:07

know , the player who was

29:09

arrested , and then we didn't pursue some money where we could have done , but

29:12

, as the committee sort of notes , that was our choice . Like

29:14

we could have pursued some money and

29:17

gained that back , chose not to

29:19

. So you then can't sort of go well

29:21

, we need the credit for claiming for not

29:23

going after said player , and

29:25

also that we want the credit for X

29:27

, x million pounds , which is a figure that Everton

29:30

basically made up and one that really doesn't make

29:32

any sense . Really doesn't make any sense is

29:34

that one of our mitigations was that

29:36

we had an agreement in place

29:38

with USM services limited , which

29:40

is Uzmanov's

29:42

company , to do

29:45

a naming rights for the stadium

29:48

, which generated 10 million pounds annually

29:50

, right and that we

29:52

then , when the Ukraine-Russia

29:55

war broke out and

29:57

Uzmanov was placed on sanctions list

29:59

and that deal collapsed , we got

30:02

that . We therefore lost the

30:05

value of that . The

30:08

thing is , that is weird

30:10

about this right Is they

30:13

reject this for two reasons . One , they say the agreement

30:16

hadn't been concluded , which is

30:18

true , but all of the paperwork

30:20

was essentially done to demonstrate that it was

30:22

going to be concluded . But the second reason

30:24

they give why they reject this is and I'm going to quote

30:26

directly here because it's important

30:28

Second , the loss of a proposed

30:31

agreement , even when that agreement

30:33

might have been thought likely , is the type

30:35

of event that businesses experience

30:37

. It is not something that can stand as diminishing

30:40

Everton's capability . So what they're saying

30:42

is they rejected our mitigation

30:45

because we should have known that Russia

30:47

might invade Ukraine , which I

30:50

mean Russia

30:53

they were fucking intelligence agencies

30:55

that didn't know Russia were going to invade .

30:57

Ukraine .

31:00

But , didn't Russia let him go to

31:03

prison as a photography ?

31:04

clearly yeah , but like didn't

31:06

he , barrett Baxendale and Farhad Meshiri

31:08

are meant to go . Hey , hey , I think .

31:10

I think we should Two people who can't run a fucking

31:13

football team .

31:16

So my point is that is one particular

31:19

example of how their justifications

31:21

to get to 10 points and rejecting

31:23

the mitigations just

31:26

a bizarre . It's like and I'm trying to

31:28

be as unbiased as I can Some of our mitigations

31:30

are mitigations we try and use COVID . Covid

31:32

applied to everybody , right ? That's not something that's- .

31:34

COVID applied to everybody . And also I'm

31:36

led to believe that the Premier League have

31:38

factored in COVID losses into

31:40

their financial calculations , so

31:43

the COVID losses are already baked in . So

31:46

the idea that the club can use COVID

31:48

as any sort of mitigation is

31:51

just nonsense .

31:52

But yeah , I think it's worth pointing

31:55

out . I mean as well , like

31:57

no one's trying

31:59

to deny that Everton , you know , shouldn't be

32:01

punished in some capacity because yeah

32:04

, yeah , absolutely , we played . You

32:06

know , we spent a hell of a lot of money and

32:08

lost an eye-watering amount of

32:12

money over those seasons , and

32:14

we deservedly . You know

32:17

we took a punt and you can . You know it's

32:19

not an opinion that I have , but

32:22

an opinion that some people have and you know , fair

32:24

enough for them to have in it . But one

32:26

thing that people say is like you know , the

32:28

Premier League is set up in such a way where

32:31

you have to spend

32:33

that sort of money in order to try and do

32:35

it . And you know Spurs are a good example

32:37

of how you don't necessarily need to do that to

32:40

break that glass ceiling . And you know Vila , you

32:42

know getting closer this season to doing that as well . But

32:48

so no one's saying that we're

32:51

, you know we don't deserve to punish because we do . It's

32:53

just 10 points is absolute

32:55

nonsense . And yeah , it's very you

32:57

know those reasons that you've given a very , very

33:00

clear and very clear ban

33:03

. But there's another one as well with that , you

33:05

get nine points for going into administration

33:08

. And the whole thing

33:10

, all the way at all of our deaths .

33:12

Yeah .

33:14

Yeah , so we could just continue spending and get

33:16

one fewer points as a punishment

33:18

.

33:20

Yeah , totally . The other hilarious thing that

33:22

you realize from the

33:25

report is , putting aside the like , the

33:27

10 points and the reduction , it does

33:29

expose how fucking comically

33:31

badly we've been being run , and I'll give

33:34

you one example of this . One example

33:36

In the financial year 2022

33:38

, which broadly covers the 2021-22

33:42

footballing season , right , which , for

33:44

you know those of you who need

33:46

to try and keep track of these things that

33:48

was the season that we

33:50

started , the season where

33:53

Ancelotti left and we hired Benitez

33:55

and we basically and we bought Damari

33:58

Gray , sold you know a

34:00

load of players and try and raise some money , right ? So

34:02

we started that season with Rafa

34:04

Benitez as the manager . We

34:06

finished that season 16th

34:08

. Our budget for that season

34:10

had us finishing sixth . We

34:14

had , as a club , our

34:16

financial year 2022 budget

34:18

assumed that we would finish

34:20

sixth in the Premier League . Now

34:22

, putting aside like all of the

34:25

other stuff , like you could , you

34:27

would not have found a fucking Everton

34:29

fan on the face of the planet who

34:31

thought we were going to finish sixth that season

34:33

, but that's what our financial planning said

34:35

.

34:36

I mean maybe I'm playing devil's

34:38

advocate . I am playing devil's advocate

34:40

a little bit Like

34:42

that's not as mad as it actually

34:45

sounds , based on what's

34:47

happened since , because we

34:49

finished 10th under Ancelotti that

34:52

season and there was , and I imagine , when those

34:54

financial predict , when those financial forecasts

34:58

were put together , we were banking

35:00

on the fact that we would have not banking on the fact

35:02

predicting for

35:04

no reason , that who were thinking he would leave , that

35:07

we would have Ancelotti as our manager . So

35:10

I agree that sixth will be a bit high

35:12

, but I wouldn't

35:14

say it's like it's not an outrageous actually thinking

35:18

about it , going against what I just

35:20

my very vociferous . What

35:22

about two minutes ago ?

35:25

Composite right , which beats that point that

35:27

, ben , you're making that . Look , we just have not been well

35:29

run and we've

35:31

ended up with in this . If we

35:34

were a properly run club , we wouldn't end up in this situation

35:36

, but we're not the only one

35:38

who's the idea we're the only

35:40

club that deserves to be

35:42

in this situation is absolutely

35:45

ludicrous . I want to move on a

35:47

little bit . Everton are going to appeal . I think there's an interesting

35:49

question which , ben , you posted on Twitter about

35:51

this , so I'll start with you again . Everton

35:55

, in Everton's submission to

35:57

the panel , everton

36:00

basically ended up accepting that

36:03

there being a breach ever since . That said , it was 7.5

36:05

million pounds something and

36:08

that Everton suggested suggestion

36:10

was that a financial penalty would

36:12

be appropriate and if

36:15

the panel fellow wants to go further than a

36:17

transfer ban . So Everton actually

36:19

suggested a transfer ban rather than

36:21

a point deduction . You tweezing the other

36:23

day , but actually you thought that a transfer ban would be worse

36:26

for us than a points deduction . Go

36:29

into that , because I think I'm not . Andy and

36:31

Adam . I'm interested in what you think about this because it

36:34

is probable , let's say on average

36:37

, if the

36:39

penalty gets reduced in some

36:41

way . What do we think our desired

36:44

outcome ? Is there A few points , or do we

36:46

think a transfer ban is actually better

36:48

?

36:50

Yeah . So if you offered

36:52

me three doors

36:54

right behind , what is it ? 10

36:57

point deduction . Behind

36:59

door number two is a transfer ban . Behind

37:02

door number three is fine , you take the

37:04

fine . And then I would take the 10 point deduction

37:06

because I think if you're gonna be like one

37:09

of my friends , who you know , when this came out

37:11

sort of text and we're

37:13

one of our group chats and was basically like , oh , this basically

37:15

relegates the club and I was I had to point

37:18

out that it literally doesn't even put us bottom like

37:20

we're still above got , we're still but burbani on gold

37:22

wisdoms . So it's like , if

37:25

you're gonna take a , if you're gonna take a point

37:27

deduction any season , this is the season

37:29

to do it , whereas I think a transfer ban , depending

37:32

on how long it lasts . You have a transfer ban

37:34

for January . You probably go . Okay , we can

37:36

probably manage that . Our squad's probably good

37:38

enough to get us on the table . Then you buy in the summer . I

37:41

think if we're in a situation where there

37:43

is a transfer embargo , transfer

37:45

ban , over to

37:47

transfer windows , I think

37:49

there's a . I think you're in a lot of you're in a lot

37:51

of problems there because you're probably

37:54

gonna . What then players get

37:56

players wanting to go because you're

37:58

not gonna be able to improve the side in a way

38:00

that demonstrates progress . People

38:02

start sniffing around because they know you need to raise

38:04

money . So , like in a world

38:06

where you sell an honor

38:09

, let's say , and can't replace

38:11

him and address a gaze a year older

38:13

and James Kofke is a year older

38:15

, and someone comes in for a Jared Branth

38:18

way and you can't replace him and you're playing Michael Keen

38:20

again , like . I just think a transfer ban

38:22

is actually far more damaging to our chances

38:24

of surviving next season than

38:27

a points deduction in this season is

38:29

. I I would say

38:31

I'd rather take , putting

38:33

aside the fact they might get reduced , if the

38:35

Premier League said , okay , you can either live with 10

38:37

points or it's a transfer ban for the next two

38:40

windows , I'd be . I'd be right , we'll

38:42

take the 10 points , like because we'll stay , we're gonna

38:44

stay up regardless . I've got every confidence in

38:46

that . So I just think

38:48

you take the pain now rather than

38:50

extending it over the

38:52

summer , creating itself a really difficult

38:54

situation next year . And that's before you get into

38:57

, like you know , if you , depending

39:00

on what we're allowed to do , transfer wise because it depends

39:03

on , like , players that you have on loan with agreements

39:05

assigned in a cow , blah blah . We

39:08

basically have one

39:10

first choice winger

39:13

who is actually ours

39:15

, which is Dwight McNeill , and then you got

39:17

Lewis Dobbin or whatever . But Jack

39:20

Harrison is not ours , dan

39:22

Juma is not ours , so

39:24

if we can't sign them , and then we have a transfer

39:26

ban and they go back like you're

39:28

literally the point where you're rolling out Lewis Dobbin

39:31

every week and like I'm sure

39:33

he's lovely and whatever , but he

39:35

ain't a Premier League level winger

39:37

and that's like he's gonna be your first choice because

39:39

you can't bring anyone in . So I think , yeah

39:41

, long way of saying I'll take the points

39:43

. Please don't give us a transfer ban , if you're listening

39:45

.

39:45

Premier League yeah , the relegation

39:48

point , you know I think is really important

39:50

to understand because I saw I mean

39:52

not the media , generally know what they're talking about

39:54

on any given subject but you know a lot

39:56

of , like you know , puts a threat of relegation

39:58

, which is like I understand

40:00

why you would say that , because where we end up

40:02

. But look at the league table , the idea

40:05

we're not gonna get what we three points behind

40:07

you know , bournemouth or I think

40:09

you know two points the idea we're

40:11

not gonna get , on average , two points

40:13

more than those teams over

40:16

the course of the rest of the season , which is all

40:18

we need to do , is like nuts

40:20

, like you know , you can see how well , adam

40:24

, what do you think about the ? What do you think about

40:26

the ? Yeah , you know , ever since appeal and what

40:29

you , given the situation we're in , what

40:31

you want to see happen , what your ideal

40:33

, best outcome , real estate outcome is from here yeah

40:36

, I want to see the club come out , come out fighting

40:38

.

40:38

I mean , this isn't my line , so

40:41

but I'll , nick , it is that

40:43

. I think it was a , I

40:46

think it was never . It was never Southall , actually who

40:48

said the Premier League have achieved

40:50

in doing the impossible , which is which is unite

40:53

the Everton board and the Everton fans

40:55

, because

40:59

you

41:01

know they've , so

41:04

the fans are obviously gonna be as

41:08

vociferous in , you know , in

41:10

lots and lots of good ways as , and that

41:12

brings out . You know , we've seen on the pitch

41:14

how that can change a tide of a game . You know . So

41:17

, never tackle on Ronaldo , whatever . Yeah , that

41:19

was how that basically changed our season

41:21

and the fans can really

41:23

lift the players . So the fans

41:25

will come out and do that . I think , on that point , a

41:28

lot of fans have got to be sort of careful

41:30

about what they put and stuff , because attaching

41:34

Everton's , attaching

41:37

the net , like Everton's name

41:39

, to anything that might be

41:42

, might land the club in hot water

41:45

during this appeals process will be something that

41:47

they'll have to be careful about . And you know , we

41:49

know we've got a lot . Most

41:51

of our fans have their head screwed on , but unfortunately

41:53

, some of the vociferous ones are also the most

41:56

stupid . But

41:58

I want to see the board , you

42:00

know , come out and and

42:03

which you have done in the state . It was very clear

42:05

and I think they were absolutely right to

42:07

say quote we

42:10

, we look at home with great interest the outcomes

42:12

of other similar investigations

42:15

and you know , end quote

42:17

, which I thought was a real , real

42:19

good , really , really , really good point to make

42:22

. How , you know , in these circumstances , you

42:24

know you might say that you wouldn't usually talk

42:26

about with the other other

42:28

other clubs and other other parties and that have

42:31

other parties involved in similar

42:33

things , but I thought that was that was that was brilliant

42:35

, because that really captured , I think , and

42:38

it's not even what about a really it's a genuine

42:40

, it's a legitimate point to make

42:42

. Is that about you know , city

42:44

and and to a lesser extent , chelsea and

42:47

you know the top , the European City League as well

42:49

, and yeah

42:52

. So I want

42:54

to see the want to see the board , you

42:57

know , really push for a point , a point , a point

42:59

, a reduced points deduction

43:01

, because that's the way to go . I agree with Ben completely

43:03

the , the idea of a transfer embargo

43:06

will be , will be , wouldn't

43:08

be good at all . You know you're talking about if

43:11

we get like a six-point you know , a

43:13

six-point deduction

43:15

in the end . You know that's a

43:18

couple of wins and and that's you

43:20

know that that eradicates it . So

43:22

yeah , it's

43:25

. It's gonna be interesting , isn't

43:27

it ? On the ?

43:28

it's gonna be hell of a really interesting on Sunday yeah

43:31

, yeah , it's gonna be a bear pit

43:33

and I love the stuff you know . Shout out to

43:35

the 1878s check

43:37

out their Twitter , because there's a bunch

43:40

of fact that they're handing out corrupt

43:43

signs to everybody in the stadium

43:45

.

43:50

I've seen Everton fans say that they're leaving

43:52

, that they're leaving Barclays as their bank

43:54

and they're trying to change their mortgage .

43:55

I saw a guy who worked for Barclays

44:05

who resigned . Yes , I wouldn't

44:07

do that if I was him , but he was like that's really

44:09

for them anymore . So we're

44:12

not good . Look , we're all scousers

44:14

, spiritually at least , if not , even

44:16

if two of us aren't literally . But like

44:18

that is a you don't like

44:21

you . Just we ought to grudge more

44:23

than any other people

44:25

absolutely like

44:27

wrong us . We'll be talking about

44:29

a thousand years from now , with archaeologists

44:32

will be piecing together what

44:34

society was like , and the only thing they'll

44:36

know is that a football team called

44:38

Everton were treated unfairly yeah

44:45

, it is .

44:46

It is the worst . It is like the worst strategic

44:48

decision anyone's made since Hitler opened that

44:50

second front right like it is like

44:53

in terms of bad

44:55

decisions to have made . It is like picking

44:57

on Everton fans is like you want

45:01

to make us the victim .

45:02

Fucking great , like we know , we've got practice

45:04

, like yeah , so , and I think it's

45:06

going to be , you know , because one of the things that's going to be interesting

45:08

is you know the good

45:11

luck I was , you know , the scariest man United on

45:13

TV . Good luck

45:15

if , when every single person in the

45:17

ground is holding up a sign that says the

45:19

Premier League's corrupt , good luck

45:21

not having that show up on TV yeah

45:24

, the world , you know like you got

45:26

no chance and just and you want and all

45:28

comes you to sort of finish on this , but

45:30

just on the sort of dynamics

45:32

of this , those it's , there's a really fascinating

45:35

things going to emerge now , of course , because you

45:38

know Everton are not going to be alone in feeling

45:41

one , probably feeling that this is

45:43

unfair , but also in terms

45:45

of pushing for what happens next , because you

45:48

got man City , who are , you know , being investigated

45:50

for 115 breaches . Chelsea self-reported

45:53

that they believed that , you know , things had

45:56

happened . There've been payments made that were

45:58

, you know , outside the rules , and things that

46:00

the new owners of Chelsea , you know , self-reported

46:03

that they believe the previous owners

46:05

of the club had done . That , if your

46:07

man United or Liverpool

46:09

or Spurs or any of the top

46:11

clubs , you are going to want those

46:13

two clubs , particularly man City , to

46:16

have the book thrown at them now . So Everton

46:18

are not going to be without allies in

46:20

the dynamic of the Premier League . You

46:22

know , in terms of this now being , you know

46:24

, being the

46:27

law and the rules being applied consistently

46:30

, and the absurdity and this gets back

46:32

to , you know , the point made at the start the absurdity

46:34

is they can't now apply it consistently

46:36

because , even if you say man

46:39

City a found guilty of half of the

46:41

breaches , right , they

46:43

have to deduct them hundreds and hundreds

46:46

of hundreds of points . Right

46:48

, it's like which . Obviously they're not going to do

46:50

. They're not going to put man City in the National

46:52

League , you know , they're just not going to do

46:54

it . They're not even going to relegate them . It's

46:56

unthinkable . So they've

46:58

created a situation where it is impossible

47:01

for the Premier League to act consistently

47:03

and I think , overall , for all the you

47:06

know noise and heat that's been generated right now

47:08

, I think that's actually a really bad decision

47:11

by them . I think that they are going to in

47:13

year , in a couple of years , when all this is played

47:15

out you know , you could they're going to look

47:17

back and they're going to see this as a decision

47:19

they are now trying , they're going to try and extricate themselves

47:22

from because they actually can't do

47:24

what it obviously implies the

47:26

interesting thing ?

47:27

sorry , very quickly . The interesting thing is

47:29

that because the Premier League and the football

47:32

league are different organizations , they can't

47:34

actually relegate the

47:36

anyone

47:39

to whatever division . All they can do is

47:41

kick them out of the Premier League , yeah , the

47:43

football league they're not obliged

47:45

to take them yeah

47:48

, and the football league . You

47:51

could have man City just booted out the league and if the football

47:53

league go well , we don't want you either . Like

47:55

, what do they do ? Do they just ? Do they rock up to like

47:57

a Sunday Park League ?

48:02

It's like an unpopular kid in school . Hi

48:05

, can I play with you ?

48:12

You've got dog and duck FC lining up against

48:15

Irving Harland , managed by Pep

48:17

, on the sideline like yeah because

48:19

, of course , what would happen is if they you

48:22

know man City get a giant points deduction and

48:24

get relegated , that's fine . But if they get kicked

48:26

out of the league , either the if I have to take

48:28

the main , which they're not just going to give them a Spot in the championship

48:30

because they , they could , you know they can't increase

48:32

the size of the championship , they , you know you end

48:34

up in an AFC Wimbledon situation . Or

48:37

, of course , they do a deal where they say , okay , four teams

48:39

come up , you know , like , fine , but they're

48:41

obviously not going to do that . Just , geopolitically

48:44

, right , the , the man

48:46

City are owned by . And I think , look , whenever

48:49

you see something , you think it's a conspiracy and you

48:51

think it could be conspiracy or it could be . People are stupid

48:53

. The world has taught me that people are just stupid

48:56

and you know the Premier League , I

48:59

mean , I think they are stupid . I've

49:01

not thought this through because man City are

49:04

owned by a state who

49:06

is an important strategic partner

49:08

to the British government . Right , they

49:11

are not going to have a situation

49:13

where that states , you know

49:15

, very priced SF by the state is hugely

49:18

devalued by the Premier League

49:20

. It's just not going to happen . Like it's like

49:22

it . Just , it's just not so

49:24

. The Premier League , even if they , with best

49:26

intentions , said no , we're going to apply the law , failure

49:28

, I'm going to deduct my man's , whatever man's , it

49:31

will not happen . So

49:33

then they're going to be in a situation I really could

49:35

see this happening when Everton

49:37

, in two years or three years , after man City have

49:39

gotten , you know , they might fudge it and give

49:41

them a fine or whatever . Everton , go well

49:43

, hang on a minute . You know we're

49:45

now going to sue you because you

49:49

Impeded us in

49:52

a way that was unfair and inconsistent . And even

49:54

though the Premier League makes its own rules , anything

49:56

, you know , any Body

49:58

in the UK , you know the process

50:00

of judicial review , allows

50:03

you to seek a judicial review

50:05

, literally by a court

50:07

, of any decision that's made anywhere if

50:10

it breaches , you know , the , the

50:12

important , the principles

50:14

of justice . So at that point that

50:16

Everton could go to a judicial review , the Premier League

50:18

and the whole thing could flip on its head . So I

50:20

think that's the where the story is going to move to

50:22

very quickly is , how do the Premier League extract

50:25

themselves From ? Actually , they

50:27

back themselves into a corner , you know they

50:29

. They look like they're being tough but they achieve

50:31

very little , but they've . They've back themselves into

50:33

a corner . Sorry , andy , I want to send

50:36

this three times there . What ?

50:37

are you ?

50:37

I think it's finally before we're gonna wrap up , but

50:39

give us your final thoughts on . You know how you

50:41

think this plays out from there .

50:45

One point on something Ben said

50:47

a little while ago about why

50:49

a points deduction was preferable to a transfer

50:52

ban , and I completely agree with everything he

50:54

said , because obviously the the

50:56

lower half of the Premier League or the lower

50:58

third of the Premier League this season is

51:01

the weakest it's been for some

51:03

considerable time . You've got

51:05

three teams in Luton , sheffield United and Burnley

51:07

, who have struggled so far and probably

51:10

will struggle for the remainder of the season . Now

51:12

next season Could

51:15

be different because Leicester in Ipswich

51:17

are flying at the top of the championship and

51:19

Leeds and Southampton are having

51:21

Good seasons

51:23

as well . So there's every possibility

51:26

that the bottom of the Premier League next

51:28

season could be stronger

51:30

than average , which is why

51:32

you really don't want to go into next

51:34

season With

51:37

any sort of transfer

51:39

ban hanging over your head or being implemented

51:42

, because for the reasons Ben's already

51:44

alluded to , that would be arguably

51:47

an even worse situation to be in

51:49

than having a points deduction

51:51

this season . And as

51:54

to listen , what do I know ? I didn't

51:57

think we'd end up with a points deduction at all and

51:59

here we are with 10 , so Go

52:02

in and appear . I wouldn't be at all surprised if

52:04

, on appeal , it's reduced to maybe

52:06

five or six .

52:08

Yeah , so it's interestingly on

52:10

the hand through . No

52:12

one was expecting a 10 point deduction Like

52:15

that is true .

52:16

Yeah .

52:16

I like I know this from like

52:18

you

52:20

know I don't understand , like had Klanders-Stein sort

52:23

of put but sources and I've

52:27

told me that the club

52:29

and the Premier League felt

52:31

that the Premier League's briefing like knew

52:33

that the Premier League's briefing of 12 points was like

52:36

Trying to show that they

52:38

were playing hard balls . The club

52:40

, everyone around it , the

52:43

Premier League , most of the people in the know there

52:45

were sort of expecting a

52:47

, you know , six points of a fine

52:49

or three points with three points of a , spend it in

52:51

a fine . So actually the panel

52:53

have Because

52:56

the panel is independent to the point that's

52:58

worth making the panel

53:00

have actually screwed the Premier League

53:02

even more because the panel actually

53:04

Given a penalty harsher than

53:07

the Premier League actually really wanted

53:09

. What the Premier League wanted here was

53:11

to Was to brief out that

53:13

story that said 12 points so they can pretend

53:15

they were tough . And

53:17

then when they given six points everyone

53:19

sort of goes yeah , okay , that seems

53:22

fair enough , they've dealt with it , they

53:24

haven't said this enormous precedent . So I

53:26

don't feel sorry for the Premier League at all , but it is interesting

53:28

that the independent Independence of

53:30

the panel and how hard the Premier League briefed

53:33

it might have actually created this additional problem

53:35

because no one was expecting this . No

53:37

one like and I mean that like everybody

53:39

that I've spoken to involved in this sort of world

53:41

Nobody thought we were going

53:43

to get the deduction this harsh nobody

53:45

.

53:46

No , yeah , just just just of

53:48

the point dead quickly about . About the panel , you've

53:51

reminded me of something I read in a

53:53

Times article a couple of days ago . One

53:55

of the members of the panel is a man called

53:57

Nick Igo , and In

53:59

2007 he was the finance

54:02

director at West Ham United .

54:04

Oh , what happened at West Ham in 2007 ?

54:06

Andy tell me . Let me remind you they

54:08

signed two players called Javi

54:11

Masherano and Carlos Tevez

54:13

and played them in the 2006

54:15

2007 season , and they were crucially

54:18

keeping West Ham United up . Carlos

54:20

Tevez scored a goal at the last day

54:22

of the season at Old Trafford , which

54:24

meant that West Ham United stayed

54:27

up and Sheffield United were relegated . Now

54:30

turns out that West

54:32

Ham breached third-party ownership

54:34

rules with those two players , so they didn't

54:36

own them , they weren't their players , they

54:39

weren't properly registered . Now West Ham escaped

54:43

a points deduction and paid 20

54:46

million pounds compensation to Sheffield United

54:48

Instead

54:54

, a situation that is still a running

54:56

sore with Sheffield United today , and understandably so , because normally , if

54:58

you feel like you're going to get a good score , you're going to get a good score . That's

55:00

going to be a running sore , because normally , if you feel ineligible

55:02

players for any reason , you

55:04

end up with a points deduction . So

55:09

I just , I just thought it was interesting that the finest director at West Ham

55:11

when that situation was playing out was

55:13

on the panel that gave Everton a ten point

55:16

deduction .

55:18

I mean clearly he's got the right expertise .

55:22

I've done this . I know this one .

55:24

He can spot some dodgy finances a fucking , by the way , that way , but

55:27

like the thing about that is

55:29

it's that's a situation where a points deduction

55:31

would actually be Valid

55:33

because you can actually look , particularly

55:36

with . You can actually look

55:38

and say , well , if he hadn't been playing on that day he wouldn't

55:40

have scored that goal . So you

55:42

know like . So you know you could actually in

55:44

some way , because you don't know what happens in the alternative

55:46

universe . But it was about specific

55:48

players . Everton's overspend was

55:50

interest payments on a loan for a new stadium

55:52

and , by the way , why the Premier League have

55:54

a problem with us . Redeveloping part of Liverpool

55:57

was a separate , you know Question why

55:59

that counts as a footballing expense to make any sense

56:01

to me .

56:02

Anyway , let's talk about Sorry

56:05

I can't bring up one other thing I talk about . On

56:07

the talk about the Premier League . I know if anyone's seen

56:10

that's come out in the in in

56:12

the athletic today by Adam

56:16

Adam Clayton and

56:18

he has

56:20

the athletic and putting

56:23

a freedom of information request about

56:26

the sort

56:28

of relationships and

56:30

the email and dialogue

56:33

between the Premier League and

56:35

the foreign office around the time that the Newcastle

56:37

Takeover

56:40

was going through and it's

56:43

it's well worth a read . It's just been broke

56:45

today on the athletic because it adds

56:48

more sort of weight to

56:50

the idea that the you

56:52

know that the Premier League is not fit

56:54

for purpose and can't regulate itself , because they've

56:56

said all along that the foreign office

56:59

had absolutely no , had

57:04

absolutely no involvement in the process At

57:08

all and it

57:12

transpires that they absolutely did . I mean

57:14

that there's quite a lot of it , but I'll just sort of read out a couple

57:16

of just Really

57:20

a couple of things . Were

57:22

, there were like there

57:24

were meetings in like the days before between

57:27

the Premier League and and

57:30

the foreign office and there were emails exchanged

57:32

in the days before and the foreign

57:34

office actually would the foreign office actually

57:36

briefed , distributed

57:39

, prepared top lines . I imagine obviously

57:41

awesome . This is like your sort of your

57:43

sort of game , presumably for expected

57:45

media scrutiny . I'm quote , I'm reading word

57:47

for word now on the matter and the stock

57:49

questions included how has the government

57:52

allowed a country responsible for the murder of Jamal

57:54

Kassagi to

57:56

take control of one of North , the Northeast

57:58

most important cultural assets

58:01

? So the

58:04

fact that the Premier League's

58:06

act , the Premier League's maintenance that there

58:09

was no involvement at all , has

58:11

now been shown to be completely untrue

58:14

. And If anyone

58:17

remembers like the Premier League

58:19

initially blocked the Saudi takeover

58:21

About a

58:23

year , 18 months beforehand , and

58:26

then it all of a sudden , just kid , it all of

58:28

a sudden just went like , seemed to went and go

58:30

through . There was no sort of I , there

58:33

was no build up to it . It was a real shock to

58:35

me by anybody else . But

58:38

so you sort

58:40

of you know

58:42

you wouldn't , you wonder what else is if those

58:45

sort of emails have been happening . You know you wonder what else

58:47

has happened in that . Anyway , I just thought that that

58:49

was worth sort of pointing out

58:51

and that'll be interesting to see what

58:53

comes out from that , because

58:56

the idea that the Premier League is

58:58

corrupt is now going to be any

59:01

sort of information

59:03

that anybody has or

59:05

evidence on that on that basis and will

59:09

be making making

59:11

headlines .

59:13

Right Shall we talk about Maniati quickly .

59:16

Yeah yeah , yeah .

59:18

Yeah , just before we do . We should probably obviously

59:20

not done a pod in a couple of weeks and

59:23

we should probably just at least acknowledge the

59:25

fact that Everton have managed to turn

59:27

the positive performances earlier in

59:29

the season into positive

59:32

results . We've said on previous pods

59:34

how all the numbers and XG

59:36

and everything were all

59:38

in the right direction and

59:40

in you know , they're all in the right

59:42

places where you'd want them to be . We

59:45

just unfortunately weren't translating those

59:47

good performances into into

59:50

victories . But

59:52

laterally we

59:54

we've been doing that . I mean the last three away

59:56

matches in London . We've won them all at

59:59

Crystal Palace . West

1:00:01

Ham and Rentford

1:00:03

was the other one , wasn't it ? No

1:00:06

, I can't . I mean I've no

1:00:08

idea when the last time was

1:00:10

we won three consecutive away games

1:00:12

in London . I'm going to guess it was quite a long

1:00:14

time ago . So , and

1:00:17

I can just just to again

1:00:19

, it's very Everton . You know we finally turned

1:00:21

the corner and we're

1:00:23

now , you know , rushing towards

1:00:25

a pl . You know we're now .

1:00:29

Open the door , Felfa Clint .

1:00:32

That's the sort of analogy I was searching for , cartoon

1:00:34

style , yeah . But

1:00:37

I mean , and it's absolutely

1:00:39

galvanised the club . I mean , I mean , you

1:00:41

know only don't know sort of many

1:00:44

Evertonians in my neck

1:00:46

of the woods , but the ones that do know are

1:00:48

all as upset and angry about the current situation

1:00:50

as I am , are all as bemused

1:00:53

as everybody

1:00:55

else is . I mean , the atmosphere for the

1:00:57

game on Sunday is going to be absolutely

1:00:59

sulfurous . And I

1:01:02

mean man United . Obviously

1:01:05

they're a good , they've

1:01:07

got good players , but they're

1:01:09

less than the sum of their parts , aren't they ? They're

1:01:12

not a very good team , they're

1:01:14

good individuals . And I

1:01:16

can remember a few years ago when

1:01:20

was it ? When was Ralph Ragnick

1:01:22

, man United managed ? Was that last season or the

1:01:24

season before ?

1:01:26

Last that was . That was the season before

1:01:28

Ten hard .

1:01:29

Season before I went to see

1:01:31

. I mean , I've seen man United

1:01:34

put in some absolute dog

1:01:36

ship performances at Goodison Park . We

1:01:38

have seen Mourinho's man United

1:01:41

lose four nil

1:01:43

at man United

1:01:45

and we beat

1:01:47

Ralph Ragnick's man United as well whenever

1:01:49

the season that was . So it's

1:01:52

perfectly possible that we can get a result

1:01:54

against them on Sunday

1:01:56

and , you know

1:01:58

, for the first time in some years the club's all going

1:02:00

to be put in the right direction . So I

1:02:04

, as far as I'm aware , nobody's got

1:02:06

any injuries , nobody's comes back from any international

1:02:08

games injured or anything like that such would

1:02:10

. So he'll

1:02:12

obviously have a

1:02:15

full strength side to

1:02:20

pick from . So I think what I think

1:02:22

we're going to win . I'm going to say be optimistic and

1:02:24

say two nil Everton .

1:02:26

Yeah , I think it's a really good point about

1:02:28

that man United , a brittle as

1:02:30

well , Very much so . Yeah , I

1:02:32

just think in that atmosphere you

1:02:35

know they're

1:02:37

not I fancy us against them . Anyway

1:02:40

, the way we're playing right now , I think that Goodison

1:02:42

is going to be like it hasn't been for a long time

1:02:44

on Sunday and I just think it's

1:02:46

going to be very , very difficult for you

1:02:49

know , man United to do a psychologically

1:02:51

weak team , you know , to

1:02:53

stand up to it . So I agree , I think we'll

1:02:55

win . Adam , what are you ? What are you thinking ?

1:02:59

To be honest , I couldn't wish for a

1:03:01

better team to play , because

1:03:03

they're

1:03:06

very

1:03:09

perverse sort of perverse side , you

1:03:11

know , because they're actually . They're actually like top

1:03:14

, if not . They're actually like , I think , second

1:03:17

or third , if not top of the form table of the

1:03:19

primary league , which sounds really perverse , you

1:03:21

know , given all the negative or

1:03:23

the scrutiny that they've been getting over the last few weeks , because

1:03:26

I think they've won like four or five primary games or something

1:03:28

, they've just not done any of any of it

1:03:30

with any conviction whatsoever and

1:03:32

that's the only that they're . In lies the sort of difference

1:03:34

. Yeah , united

1:03:37

are about as solid

1:03:39

as a Liz trust government when , when they're put

1:03:41

under pressure so they're

1:03:43

not going to be any

1:03:46

, then they all go . The

1:03:50

atmosphere and the way

1:03:52

the , the fans and the players

1:03:54

are going to be really up for this game , you

1:03:57

know , obviously on the back of a really

1:03:59

good win away at Palace and then a two week international

1:04:01

break in

1:04:03

between means it's

1:04:05

, it's a , it's a combination of lots

1:04:08

of different factors which are going to be mean

1:04:10

. It's going to be a hell of

1:04:12

a hell of

1:04:14

a game for , for us , and

1:04:17

I can't what ? I can't , absolutely can't wait . Can't

1:04:19

wait for it .

1:04:21

It's interesting about my United form because , I don't

1:04:24

know , maybe this is like a perverse thing to say

1:04:26

, but I think they've been a bit lucky , honestly

1:04:28

like , because they they wouldn't like game

1:04:30

to get against who it was when Tony made

1:04:32

came off the bench and scored twice in a

1:04:35

minute which are both like sort of scrappy

1:04:37

, you know sort of scrappy goal , and

1:04:39

they all count , obviously . And

1:04:42

then I'll watch for the next game and they're they're

1:04:45

even in winning . I don't think they've been that convincing

1:04:47

, you know , and the team selection is very

1:04:49

strange over there now . You know , he's got McGuire's

1:04:52

back in , he's got you know what is

1:04:54

it for ? An is that the center half

1:04:56

? He's got to be playing , and so I

1:04:58

just think there's a lot going on . That not

1:05:00

, there's a lot going on there isn't working

1:05:03

at all , and I think , if we know that we should

1:05:05

beat them and that man United but you

1:05:08

know , I don't think they're going to be up for up

1:05:10

for a fight and bloody hell they're

1:05:15

going to get one on Sunday , anything

1:05:17

else , for anything else before we wrap

1:05:20

up .

1:05:22

No , I think we should probably wrap up

1:05:24

the possibly the longest pod we've ever

1:05:26

done . I keep thinking of more things to say

1:05:28

about the FFP and everything

1:05:30

, but we could be here all night .

1:05:33

Depending on how many . How many uses

1:05:35

the word honey to cut the

1:05:38

. That's for work , for we're

1:05:40

only an hour and six minutes , so it's not not

1:05:42

the longest one we've ever done . Okay , fair enough

1:05:45

, we have an amazing ability to

1:05:47

always come in around an hour like it just is

1:05:49

. No , we don't . We don't limit it

1:05:51

, we don't like . There's no . Trust me , as

1:05:53

you can tell , dear listener , there is no

1:05:56

planning organization , it's

1:05:58

all . We always sort of just end up

1:06:00

at an hour . So , yeah , we're about , we're about right , all

1:06:03

right , so we'll be back after , after

1:06:06

Sunday's game and

1:06:08

, you know , hopefully on the other side of a

1:06:10

victory , follow us on

1:06:12

Spotify , apple podcast , wherever you get your podcast

1:06:14

will be there and tell your ever since supported

1:06:16

mates that were here and always want to

1:06:19

get new listeners . And come

1:06:21

on , you blues , let's give my United hell on Sunday

1:06:23

. You

1:06:32

.