0:00

Hi, everybody. It's the Blocks podcast. My

0:02

guest today was the creator of the

0:04

show Community and the co-creator of the

0:06

show Rick and Morty. And

0:09

he sent me a list of

0:11

blocks that's, I don't know

0:13

if you can see it on the, it's multiple.

0:16

It's a few pages. It's

0:19

what you would kind of expect from the

0:22

co-creator of Rick and Morty. It's, it's,

0:24

he referred to it as recursive

0:27

and it's, it's eating its own tail.

0:30

It's a parody of blocks and

0:33

it's a departure from, it's, it's

0:36

everything you want. I don't know

0:38

how I'm going to do it. Well, it's, is

0:40

it time for your show to, you

0:43

know, have that peak episode

0:46

where can Neil talk

0:48

to a man who is mostly

0:51

block? And,

0:53

and to your earlier point and looks

0:56

like it. Yeah. If you see on

0:58

video, he was not happy with his,

1:00

his single. Yeah. His

1:02

closeup is a little concretey.

1:05

Yeah. You know, I

1:07

don't want to say not happy because that

1:09

implies that like I feel entitled to look

1:12

better than I do. Like I just, it

1:14

just, I don't, I don't see, I have

1:17

very low lighting in my bathroom and then I,

1:19

I brush my teeth and I go to, go

1:21

to work. And so it, just,

1:24

it's just a gentle reminder to get back on. Well,

1:26

what would you, what would you do? What

1:28

would you, what would you do if like seeing what you

1:31

see now what, now what do you do? I,

1:34

I stopped eating snacks

1:37

for every meal. Like I, so I,

1:39

I'm on a meal plan. Like

1:41

it's not like a birthday cake and pizza

1:43

and I don't indulge, but the problem is

1:46

that because I have a nutritionist and I've been,

1:48

I, I, I've,

1:50

I've experienced what I'm supposed

1:53

to do and gotten the results, which is I

1:55

just have a meal plan. If I just eat

1:57

the five meals a day, I'm. I'm

2:00

fine. I'm high energy. I'm focused. I

2:02

feel good and all this stuff. And

2:04

then there's like these little snacks that

2:06

I'm allowed to have. So it's five

2:08

plus snacks? Well, no, no. Five. Okay.

2:11

Well, no, there's like emergency. There's a

2:13

bowl of like, like, look, if shit

2:16

goes wrong, if you're a little dixie

2:18

couple of cottage

2:20

cheese is went bad

2:22

in the Southern California sun because it was on your

2:25

porch too long, whatever, or if you're going on a

2:27

trip and you don't, you're not, you don't want to

2:29

bring a, an organ harvesting.

2:31

Something tells me you, you

2:34

said Midwestern, you said porch. I feel like

2:36

it's a patio. Okay. All

2:38

right. It's your, you've entered the tax bracket

2:40

of patio. Okay. Your porch

2:42

days are behind you. Well, it's, it's, it's

2:44

certainly there's no, there's not a lot of

2:46

shade where the meal people leave the fanny

2:49

pack full of things I'm supposed to eat

2:51

hours later. It sounds Spartan, but I'm sure

2:53

you're paying a good deal of money for,

2:55

for what you're getting. And

2:58

sometimes it's deviled eggs for breakfast. And

3:00

then you're like, when did this get

3:02

here? 5am? What time is it now?

3:04

11? Are they still deviled or are

3:06

they now maybe poached? What

3:09

were you doing before community? I was right

3:12

before community. I was in a

3:15

chapter I'm sure you've had, we're

3:17

both the same age. We've both, you know,

3:19

like, I'm sure you've, like,

3:21

in spite of previous successes, you've

3:24

probably had like literal

3:26

unemployment. Like I was collecting unemployment checks for

3:28

that. I never collected unemployment. It had been

3:30

a while, but yeah. I remember that time

3:32

as being amazing in my life. Cause I,

3:34

I didn't understand. I thought it was like

3:36

welfare, like mean, like, like that I was,

3:38

I was having to say, I'd like the

3:41

taxpayers to take care of me. And then

3:43

I remember one of my friends saying, no,

3:45

that's your money and you're losing

3:47

it. It's like, that's part of what gets taken out

3:49

of all of your work that you've ever done. They

3:51

like are hanging onto it. And I'm like, that's kind

3:53

of cool of them. Yeah. And,

3:56

and finding that out and just getting a check

3:58

that just like saved my life. in

8:00

a good mood, if you're in a good mood, I'm

8:02

in a bad mood, I have to like, I have

8:04

to make, you know, I get scared. The proximity, the

8:07

potential for compromise. Where

8:09

is it from? I don't know. I

8:12

mean, it's... The

8:16

detachment thing I can definitely relate to.

8:18

And even the loyalty thing I can

8:20

relate to. I guess I'm

8:22

wondering what's your origin story, emotionally.

8:26

I mean, it ain't Daryl Hammond's.

8:30

I've been listening to your rogues

8:32

gallery, i.e. all of my heroes,

8:34

you know, like, leading up to

8:36

this. You

8:39

don't have abuse synesthesia, you mean? Yeah,

8:42

I mean, I think we all have trauma. I

8:46

think I really like,

8:48

I hate, like at 51, I hate... One

8:51

of the things I hate about my

8:53

30-year-old self is that I went

8:57

way too far in parading

9:00

my ancestral

9:06

history around. I didn't

9:08

know how fame and stuff was gonna work.

9:10

Like, I just sort of thought that, you

9:12

know, the 25-year-old version of me that's like

9:15

in an improv show and

9:17

somebody throws out the suggestion jelly donut

9:19

and I do

9:22

a scene about how my dad

9:24

spanked me and

9:26

my dad's in the audience and it's

9:28

like a real story and everyone's laughing

9:30

and they're saying, this feels so real,

9:32

that's why it was funny. And like,

9:34

that dopamine spike caused me for the

9:36

next... Like, so I

9:38

just... So the TLDR of

9:41

my current total digression is,

9:43

I really think my parents

9:46

did a fantastic job. And

9:48

I don't want the twilight

9:51

of our relationship or lack

9:53

thereof to be spent

9:55

with me like, bagging on it or like

9:57

referring to it in these terms that and

10:00

the public can interpret them. I literally called my mom

10:03

three days ago to say, I'm sorry I ever criticized

10:05

you. Because I've been watching my

10:07

girlfriend raise her son. And I'm

10:09

like, this is so fucking hard. I

10:12

cannot believe that I was critical.

10:15

I'm like, dad, I'm still on the

10:17

fence. But also as a fellow Gen

10:19

Xer who has had a TV writing

10:22

career and therefore has always been around

10:24

the mechanism of fame and publicity, isn't

10:27

part of it in just

10:29

like when you were 25, you

10:32

felt like it was punk rock and totally

10:34

righteous to like make fun of your mom

10:36

for being a lizard woman. And

10:38

then like after being

10:40

through chapters where you're

10:42

being called a pedophile because you vote

10:44

wrong or because you know, like or

10:46

I shouldn't, I just tried to

10:49

make myself sound like a victim there. I've

10:51

been like publicly held

10:53

accountable for

10:57

mis-inhaviors of younger, less

11:00

powerful people and

11:03

had to atone for it. And

11:06

it's like, what the hell did my

11:09

mom do by comparison? She's a 25

11:11

year old chick who married her best

11:13

friend and didn't plan

11:15

for me and

11:17

still bothered to feed and clothe me.

11:20

And on top of all that, gave me

11:22

a typewriter for my birthday cause I wouldn't

11:25

stop fucking around with hers. And you know,

11:27

like told me I could do anything. The

11:30

amount of things that these people

11:32

have done for me, it's

11:35

like, and then, but it was just like,

11:38

I just look at my younger self and

11:40

by younger, I mean my 30 year old

11:42

self as like this ungrateful prick now. Do

11:45

you get- Yeah, I'm getting that. By the way,

11:47

I was like 40 when I did three mics.

11:50

And that was like taking my, especially

11:52

my father to task and all this shit and

11:54

on Netflix. And it was like, I

11:57

still, I guess I

11:59

stand by. but I

12:01

don't, I don't, not like, I

12:03

don't know if I would do it today, but, I

12:06

just think. But it was, I mean, it was more like,

12:08

that actually wasn't even that, it was

12:10

revealing whatever, but yeah, I'm with you in terms

12:12

of like, oh, you

12:16

have the specific experience of being called to the

12:18

carpet, so to speak, so. Yeah, and you, but

12:20

I think as you get older, which

12:23

is hardly a feat, it's not nobility, I

12:25

think it's just, it's almost entropy, but at

12:27

least that's a good thing about entropy, like

12:29

a fruit ripening, you,

12:32

you get older and the fight goes out

12:34

of you, and all you want is to

12:37

be a genuinely good person, and you start

12:39

to realize that, that one

12:42

of the biggest things about that is that you should,

12:45

you should not involve

12:47

other people in your weird

12:50

performative shit. But I, I mean,

12:53

I, I have no

12:55

doubt that, I think, I think

12:57

both you and I are saying the same thing, which is the

13:00

stuff needed to be expressed, but I still

13:02

feel bad about ever having done it, because

13:04

to the extent that it was ever received

13:06

as punitive or, you know, like

13:09

I don't, and so

13:11

all of that was one big preamble, just so

13:13

that I can give a proper

13:15

academic answer to your question, where does this

13:17

come from? Yeah. Childhood trauma,

13:20

I mean, but as my parents were

13:22

so fond of saying, it was the 70s, I mean. Yeah.

13:26

And so that's why I said, not Daryl Hammond

13:28

style, but definitely

13:30

chaos, pure fucking chaos.

13:32

Collateral damage, but

13:35

pretty reasonable amounts. Well,

13:39

yeah, yeah. The kind that, I

13:42

mean, anyone that's, that was

13:44

alive in the 70s knows that

13:46

just like M&M or

13:48

Iced Tea lyrics being read on

13:50

Larry King, like. Die, die, die,

13:52

pig, die, the police. If

13:54

you just described factually some of the things

13:57

about your childhood to a 25. year

14:00

old today, it's

14:02

gone beyond them. They'll now not believe

14:04

you. Like now they'll say, I don't

14:06

believe you. It really does sound distillate.

14:09

It sounds like from a hundred years

14:11

ago. And they think that

14:13

you're lying. They think that they're like,

14:15

that's not true. Adults wouldn't drink and

14:17

drive when you were a kid. They

14:20

absolutely would drink and they mostly

14:22

drank and drive. There was not

14:24

a bestselling book about raising children

14:26

that literally told parents not to

14:28

breastfeed and to let them cry

14:31

until they stop crying. That

14:33

wasn't a best seller. Maybe it was

14:36

a fringe self-publishing. No, I'm sorry. It

14:38

was a best seller. It

14:41

wasn't Dr. Spock. That wasn't the guy.

14:43

It was Dr. Spock. Okay,

14:46

so what's the TLDR on

14:48

your being called? You

14:51

got like Me Too-dish and you seem

14:53

to handle it in

14:58

an adult mature way. Would

15:00

you agree with that? I don't remember the specifics of it other

15:03

than going like, oh, this seems to be the way to do

15:05

it. Yeah, I tried to

15:07

do it the way that

15:09

I was watching my colleagues,

15:13

cousins in the industry, all

15:16

of whom I have the most sympathy

15:18

for because it, yeah,

15:21

there was an avalanche that

15:23

happened and the

15:25

movements happen. They don't

15:27

happen with scalpels and lasers. They happen in avalanches

15:31

and the time for due process

15:35

and fairness and discourse, the whole point

15:37

is that that's over. Those were the

15:39

things that people were hiding behind and

15:43

the system was protecting basic

15:45

abuses of power that

15:48

we now know because of this shift. It's

15:50

very much like, you're my age, so you

15:52

remember with smoking. It was like, I

15:55

was a smoker till I was 32 and I

15:57

remember, I have these faint memories of beings.

22:00

in their head is, I

22:02

am an underdog, I am fighting everything,

22:04

I am a hero, nothing ever goes

22:08

my way, and now on

22:10

top of that, you're telling me I

22:12

did something to you by being born

22:14

and they get all ballistic, and then

22:17

they kind of end up inadvertently peacocking

22:19

the very thing that is

22:22

happening. And over time, it settles and

22:24

the culture shifts and stuff. But if

22:28

you're grandfathered in, so

22:30

yeah, the tough thing about a proper apology

22:32

is the actual

22:35

shifting, where you go like, I

22:38

am not the protagonist, this is not my

22:40

story, I am a character in it, I

22:42

am a bad character in it, I am

22:45

at best a piece of furniture, I am

22:48

a circumstance, I'm a storm, those are

22:50

at best, at worst, I'm Darth Vader,

22:52

I'm somebody that actually

22:54

tried, but at best, I'm

22:57

definitely not a hero. This is a story about someone

22:59

else that had to deal with someone. Well, that's just

23:02

a good way to do conflict resolution of

23:04

like, we all assume

23:06

we're the hero and

23:08

just like, hypothetically explain

23:11

this story to me with you as the villain.

23:14

And that's how you get to like, oh, I

23:17

guess, yeah, I guess you could see

23:19

that as shitty behavior. Yeah,

23:21

and I've been talking to

23:23

a lot of people and also

23:25

having to apologize for things that I did, where

23:28

I just refuse to apologize. Subsequently, they can

23:30

be small things. I have regular fights with Cody,

23:32

we both of us have been to

23:34

therapy, both of us know the definition of

23:36

an apology. So the

23:38

awesome thing is that we'll

23:41

have a fight and we'll need to repair and

23:43

then we'll break it down and we'll say things

23:45

like, look, I acknowledge the offense,

23:47

which is this, I feel

23:49

remorse because obviously we both feel remorse that

23:51

this happened, but I cannot commit to change

23:54

because I cannot tell you that. And it's

23:56

like, because that's the third ingredient

23:59

to an apology. effective apology. It's

24:02

acknowledgement of the offense, expression

24:05

over Moore's commitment to change. I

24:07

think the most, and I should give credit

24:09

to, and this is from a book that

24:13

someone wrote and I feel bad this

24:15

person should be cited. I mean, this

24:17

is where I

24:19

don't know the name. I

24:22

think the book is called like Anna Apology

24:24

or something like that. They go through the

24:26

history of the planet kind of going like,

24:28

here are some of the most successful piece

24:30

of chords. Here's, you know, like, like where

24:33

they go, this can be

24:35

applied to sort of- When you guys

24:37

will not commit to change,

24:39

is it with the caveat that

24:41

down the road you'll be open

24:43

to change? Or is

24:46

it just like, I don't know what to

24:48

tell you. Those are two, I mean, I'm

24:50

laughing at it because it's like, well, those

24:52

are two people who are just still in

24:54

a fight. I mean, but we're at least

24:56

expressing two thirds of- Yeah, but it's less

24:58

of a fight. If you're at least like

25:00

a genuine acknowledgement. Sometimes two

25:02

thirds will get you there. Like, if

25:06

I spill a drink on you at a bar, this is

25:11

an example I always use. The reason why

25:13

people get kind of flummoxed is because they

25:16

feel like an apology is some kind of

25:18

self-flagellation. Like, that it's

25:20

enough to submit. You go,

25:23

my bad, I'm sorry. And then you

25:25

have these ticks where we go like,

25:27

I'm sorry if you got hurt.

25:30

So, something that

25:32

people would think would be a really good apology

25:34

possibly would be if I spilled a drink on

25:36

your jacket and then I go, oh

25:39

my God, I'm so sorry. I'm

25:41

going to pay for that jacket.

25:45

I'm going to get you two jackets, two

25:47

jackets on me. So,

25:50

this person's going like, I'm

25:53

Mr. Jacket Buyer. I'm clearly

25:55

very sorry and definitely admitting that

25:58

I am the one and the

26:00

wrong. It's definitely way better than

26:02

me saying, hey, why

26:05

don't you watch where you're going, guy who got

26:07

your thing spelled on you. The

26:09

person doesn't really, the

26:12

jacket might work, but

26:14

not that you're still, you are

26:17

now reducing that person. The

26:19

reason they're mad, because they got a drink spilled

26:22

on them, is because you have taken over

26:24

their entire narrative. They did not

26:26

plan for a drink to get spilled on

26:28

them. They were in the middle of a

26:30

conversation with a girl they liked. They were

26:33

on their way to the bathroom. They're filing

26:35

their taxes. They've got a story they're trying

26:37

to write. And now you're blowing through it

26:40

and you're deciding that you're more

26:43

important. It doesn't matter if you're on your

26:45

knees, sucking them off. You're

26:48

still stealing all of their narrative.

26:50

Yep. Whereas if you

26:52

say, this is what a person wants to hear

26:55

if you get a drink spilled on them, it

26:58

doesn't save their night, but they want

27:00

to hear, I just

27:03

bumped into you because I wasn't

27:05

looking where I was going. I

27:07

feel terrible. And because this

27:09

happened, I

27:11

am going to not

27:14

do it again to someone else. Right.

27:17

I'm going to make a commitment to paying closer

27:19

attention to where I'm going. I

27:21

think the subtle altruistic thing about that

27:23

is that the victim in quotes, no

27:25

one wants to be a victim. And

27:28

specifically say, I'm not reimbursing you for

27:30

the day. It makes

27:32

them a hero because instead of being a

27:34

victim, which no one wants to be, it

27:36

means that if they simply endure this

27:39

bad thing that happened to them, they

27:42

were a part of making

27:44

things better if

27:47

they really believe it. Oh, okay.

27:49

So you're based. Some dickhead spilled a

27:51

drink on me because he's an obnoxious,

27:54

narcissistic, clumsy, like distracted. But he's committed

27:56

to not being that way. Oh my

27:58

God. God, he, like you should have

28:01

seen the look on this guy's face.

28:03

I really think it's

28:05

sunk in for the guy. Like

28:07

he needs to stop doing XYZ. I'm

28:10

not gonna use my phone anymore when

28:12

I'm drinking or I'm not, it's a

28:14

genuine, it's like their narrative becomes I

28:17

was a part of a shift in

28:19

a dick. A human transformation. It's

28:22

very important. And then five years later you do, where are

28:24

they now? How did it

28:26

go? Talk to us, did it actually manifest

28:28

deeply? I think you follow them with private

28:30

detectives so that the moment they spill a

28:32

drink on a jacket, you jump out and

28:34

go, huh? You have to. Let's

28:36

hear that apology. So easy, isn't

28:38

it? It

28:40

would be wrong of me to complain

28:43

about Netflix, but you know what's not fair?

28:45

The fact that Netflix hides thousands of shows

28:47

and movies from you based on your location

28:49

and then it has the nerve to keep

28:52

increasing their prices on you. Who were they

28:54

giving this money to? Points itself. Now,

28:57

you could just cancel your subscription and protest

29:00

or you could be smart about it and make

29:02

sure you're getting your full money's worth like I

29:04

do by using ExpressVPN. Here's my point. Netflix

29:07

has like 18,000 titles, but they

29:09

only show the United States, 6,000. This

29:12

may apply to Canada, England, whoever's

29:14

listening or watching. So if you get

29:16

a VPN, you can change your location

29:19

and pretend you're in England. This also

29:21

works really well with BBC Plus and

29:23

App because I'm a pretty sophisticated, you

29:26

get it. I like black and white.

29:28

I like voiceovers and chamber music. All

29:30

right, ExpressVPN, it's easy to use. You

29:32

fire up the app and click one

29:35

button to change the location. It

29:37

works on all your devices, phones, laptops, tablets,

29:39

smart TVs and more. Super fast,

29:41

blazing fast, speed, streaming HD with zero buffering.

29:43

You know what I ended up watching? I

29:46

ended up watching Midnight Run. I think I

29:48

had to go pretend I was in

29:51

Spain or something. It's an old Bob

29:53

De Niro movie and Charles

29:55

Grodin, the great Charles Grodin. I

29:58

watched the Heartbreak Kid, the original. spend

40:00

all your time up there kind of going like,

40:02

it's beautiful up here and it smells like roses

40:04

and anyone that says otherwise is a crazy person.

40:06

But if you just stay up there and go,

40:08

I love every bump and crevice and nook and

40:10

cranny, that's great. That's as admirable

40:13

as somebody who spends their entire life

40:15

studying bedbugs or cockroaches or these people

40:17

are important. Like, you know, people have

40:19

to build their- I would argue as

40:21

long as you're creating

40:24

something in that regard, like if

40:26

you're gonna be self-obsessed, it's, you

40:28

know- Yes, if you're sharing it with others. Yes. If

40:31

you're generating material and selling it for

40:33

reasonable price. Yeah. Like I

40:35

would argue then like, you're a net positive.

40:37

I don't care how you gather. I don't

40:39

know you. Like, so if you're

40:42

up your ass, great. Where are

40:44

the episodes? Right. I don't

40:46

like, whatever your process is, just

40:49

give me the shit, give me the worst

40:51

of stuff. Yeah. And so

40:53

the specialness thing is why I go

40:55

like, I don't, I could do

40:57

without that because it's like, there's nothing

40:59

special about needing to be up your ass. Like

41:02

you don't have to add to that.

41:04

That's why I'm important. That's why I'm

41:07

great. It's like a proper

41:09

adult, I think, goes, this is

41:11

what I do. It's based on

41:13

compulsions. It's based on fascination. It's

41:15

based on neural networking, whatever. It's

41:17

my lot in life. Some guys

41:19

are out there kicking in doors

41:21

and saving cats from fire. Thank

41:25

God they don't demand

41:27

every day of my life that I think

41:30

about them. Or in

41:32

every conversation with them, thank God they're allowed

41:34

to come have a drink and talk about

41:37

Minecraft with me. And then let

41:39

me be fascinated by their firefighting

41:41

without them constantly going, this drink

41:43

reminds me of fighting fires instead

41:46

of Minecraft. Or yeah,

41:48

interesting story about running community. It

41:50

sounds like an ember, oh, oh,

41:52

did we get back on that?

41:54

And kind of like the specialness,

41:56

this need to bend everything to

41:58

the self. That's the I think

42:00

that's a vice. You bring up

42:02

neural networks. How have you changed

42:04

yourself? How have you just become aware of

42:07

your neural networks? And just don't like. And

42:09

just and like, all right, I

42:12

know what I'm probably going to do. Let's

42:14

see if we can not do it. I'm

42:17

not quite that far. I think

42:19

my therapist has helped me

42:21

realize that shame. I

42:23

can't believe I didn't put this on the

42:25

block list. Shame is the number one block.

42:27

Go. It's what do you say more. I'm

42:30

just driven by shame. My body, my mind,

42:32

my soul is. And it

42:35

that that does not shame does not

42:37

go hand in hand with like humility.

42:39

Humility is virtue. But

42:41

shame is just I hate myself, which

42:44

is just a sister cousin of of

42:46

solace. Is a vanity. I mean, it's

42:48

like, yeah, like, yeah. Hating

42:51

yourself and loving yourself. I think you would

42:53

also agree that that there's. Value

42:56

to shame as

42:58

a there's non toxic shame. My therapist

43:00

says a little

43:02

kid, the reason we have the mechanism is

43:04

that a little kid at the top of

43:06

a flight of stairs with their giant head

43:09

that they can't balance when

43:12

they can receive from a gesture and

43:14

a look and a tone of voice from

43:16

their mommy down at the bottom of the

43:18

stairs. No. And

43:22

that the the non toxic shame

43:26

it imprints on them like, oh,

43:28

the top of these stairs, they

43:31

are a mommy disappoint. Like,

43:34

like, like it is a good

43:36

it's a bookmark mechanism for sentient primates

43:38

that can get themselves in a lot

43:40

of trouble if they only go by

43:42

what feels good and what doesn't kill

43:45

them, because we are we spend the

43:47

first 14 years of our development

43:50

as a gangly leopard

43:54

bait. So

43:56

so shame, good shame is

43:58

like Mom and

44:00

dad, like they get, they

44:03

got really freaked out when

44:05

I started

44:08

swallowing this hot poker. That's

44:11

a bad example, that has its own, you don't need to

44:13

be ashamed of that, it burns. But they

44:15

got real, you detect

44:18

and you judge, toxic shame

44:20

is it's not gonna make any difference.

44:25

They say the definition of a phobia is, it's

44:27

fine to be scared of spiders, they're creepy and

44:29

gross. If you can't go in your kitchen and

44:31

you're late to work, because there's a spider in

44:33

there, now we're in phobia

44:36

territory, because the spider probably

44:38

isn't a brown recluse and you're now

44:41

late for work. So now you have

44:43

an, now you have

44:45

arachnophobia. Toxic shame is you're

44:47

fucking yourself up and you're not getting, you're not,

44:50

you're not avoiding falling down any stairs anymore.

44:53

You're just, you're just saying that you're like.

44:55

But it, yeah, to the parental thing, it's

44:57

like there's also norms and

44:59

sort of cultural, I

45:02

think, shame's, it's how we learn

45:04

the rules. It's the rules, it's

45:06

kind of like the norms and

45:08

the expectations of a shared

45:11

society. I don't, that's

45:13

why I'm kind of like pro-shame in some

45:16

ways. Wait, we're just splitting

45:18

these hairs too, because there's no, like, there's

45:20

no Hogwarts for this and there's no like,

45:22

like plumbing union. Like it's

45:24

a semantic game and there's no like

45:27

that word. Even like when does it

45:29

become toxic? I guess if you're, if

45:31

it becomes a phobia. Especially when it's

45:33

self-inflicted and it's only causing you to

45:35

do more things that are

45:38

affecting other people. I think a nice litmus test

45:40

is if

45:42

the shame is the

45:44

reason you didn't do something

45:46

unhealthy and also if

45:50

it didn't cause you to hurt yourself. I

45:53

mean, that includes emotionally. So

45:55

there's the difference right there. That's why

45:58

the word shame has us like. know,

58:00

let's examine why that's your image

58:02

of a person with being esteemable.

58:06

But it's not true. And what I

58:08

found is that my version of an

58:10

esteemable act is like

58:13

I like making furniture, I like workshop

58:17

stuff. So you can flip it,

58:19

right? You make tables so you

58:21

can flip them later on? Yeah,

58:23

yeah. I make special tables with

58:25

secret handle grips and it's especially

58:28

placed so that other people

58:30

when they try to flip my dining room

58:32

table, it'll be like when they tried to

58:34

siphon gas out of Mad Max's car. It's

58:36

just like, I'll put dynamite under there. But

58:38

like the table will flip them. But

58:41

then I just like reach over and go, what's

58:43

the big deal? It's just a table flipping. Yeah,

58:45

it's right here. You see you're in armor, you're

58:47

like, where are the flipping bars? Yeah. Why aren't

58:49

you mad, bro? Maybe your job's not hard. I

58:52

don't see this table flipping. I also

58:54

like that you're so anti-hobbies that you're

58:56

like that hang gliding is

58:59

an esteemable act. I

59:02

know. You're like hang gliding, of

59:04

course, because that's, I know where

59:06

that's, it's just that was a

59:08

Mount John Denver and like that's

59:10

natural living. Yeah. Is putting on

59:13

a helmet and jumping off a

59:15

cliff. I always betrayed you to

59:17

hang gliding, whatever. That's better for

59:19

the environment. So like literally what

59:21

the late 70s, early

59:23

80s would, that was the messaging.

59:25

I mean, what do you do,

59:28

esteemable acts? Well, no, I was

59:30

thinking about that, the esteemable acts.

59:33

I got self esteem,

59:36

not from esteemable acts. I

59:38

just got, I got them

59:40

from drugs, honestly, MDMA

59:42

and ayahuasca. You mean ayahuasca? Yeah,

59:45

to be clear. Yeah. So I

59:47

didn't do anything in

59:49

particular because I have the, that

59:52

you may have also, which

59:54

is if I'm doing, because I don't like

59:56

doing things I don't like doing, I will

59:59

just be. resentful and sulky

1:00:02

the whole time. If I'm like, oh, is

1:00:04

this esteemable enough? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's a

1:00:06

good way to get killed in hang gliding,

1:00:08

they say. Oh,

1:00:10

the best. If you try to pout, they

1:00:13

say that... Yeah, it's the number

1:00:15

one thing. It's like you don't have the right

1:00:18

form. You literally, chapter

1:00:20

one of the hang gliders handbook is called Lean

1:00:22

In. Yeah, you cannot. It's the definition of the

1:00:24

hang for it. There's a pout with a line

1:00:26

through it. You

1:00:29

had another one on here that I'm interested in, which

1:00:31

is... Hold on one

1:00:33

second, not peanut butter protein bars. Oh,

1:00:38

okay. Nagging concern that I've

1:00:40

never been a person. Yeah.

1:00:45

Explain to people what you mean by that. A

1:00:47

person whose earliest memory is

1:00:51

being the cheese and standing alone, which

1:00:53

is a reaction to other people. And

1:00:55

then even if my reaction to other people

1:00:58

is, I want to be alone, like

1:01:00

not liking people, I'm very introverted, but it's

1:01:02

always about other people. And

1:01:07

then,

1:01:10

do I have a value system? I don't know.

1:01:12

I think that during

1:01:14

the Obama administration, which

1:01:16

our generation for no political

1:01:18

reason, just like that

1:01:21

era, I think we were... It

1:01:24

was easier to feel

1:01:29

virtuous when virtue

1:01:32

coincidentally lined up with

1:01:36

really just whatever you wanted to do.

1:01:40

You have to put energy into homophobia

1:01:42

and racism. It's a lazy person.

1:01:45

It's just like, why would I

1:01:47

care if someone's a different color

1:01:49

or who they have sex with?

1:01:51

Hero, time to go

1:01:53

get your statue. And it's like, oh,

1:01:56

there's a homeless person. I think I'll

1:01:58

give them a dollar that I... I have because

1:02:00

I don't have work today because I'm a writer.

1:02:02

Like it now because

1:02:05

of the kind of, you know. It's

1:02:07

like performative morality of

1:02:09

convenience. It's just untested. Yeah,

1:02:11

and of convenience. I think the thing

1:02:13

that makes me the most nervous about

1:02:15

the only, my only stake in politics

1:02:17

is just from a global history perspective

1:02:20

and going like, please don't put me

1:02:22

in a chapter of history where I

1:02:24

will find out exactly what I'm made

1:02:26

of because I think it's nothing. Yeah.

1:02:29

I don't have any evidence that

1:02:31

I have actual integrity, bravery that

1:02:33

I have. I'm

1:02:36

going too high with this. It's

1:02:38

more pervasive than that. I don't know if

1:02:41

I like bananas. Like I

1:02:43

don't know if I just don't not hate

1:02:45

them. I don't know. Like

1:02:47

I'm not sure. Like I feel

1:02:50

like there's a computer in my

1:02:52

head whose first job was to

1:02:54

simulate like and blend. And

1:02:57

then I was smart enough maybe to realize

1:02:59

that that's not how you make a lot

1:03:01

of money. What's funny about your position, I

1:03:03

mean, I guess you probably just work a

1:03:05

lot, right? Yeah. And

1:03:07

so you can avoid a lot that way. Yeah. But

1:03:10

I'm sure you've had the moments, even if it's just

1:03:12

a weekend of like, what am I actually like? Yeah.

1:03:16

I mean. Like other than these habits

1:03:18

that I've like formed, what do I like? What

1:03:21

kind of people do I like? Do I like bananas? Yeah.

1:03:24

Do I like concerts? I mean,

1:03:26

yeah. I mean, did I ever really? Or did

1:03:28

I just go? Yeah. It's like,

1:03:30

like I don't and it's yeah, that nagging suspicion

1:03:32

that I am just a cloud of reactions

1:03:35

and I mean, I look,

1:03:38

I hear other people talking and I do believe

1:03:40

them when they say, I don't

1:03:42

like this. I do like that. And I'm

1:03:45

like secretly, there's this part of

1:03:47

me that's like, am I just masking? You

1:03:51

know? Like,

1:03:54

because I don't know how

1:03:56

strongly I feel about that. Like my

1:03:58

convictions all can be. linked to

1:04:00

not just

1:04:04

self-interest, I do think it's self-interest but

1:04:06

also with a note that like self-interest

1:04:08

for me doesn't can easily include. I want

1:04:10

to feel like a good person. I want

1:04:13

to feel like I'm

1:04:15

a Democrat politically because I

1:04:17

do agree with the philosophy

1:04:20

that a proper civilization is,

1:04:24

that a civilization should be measured by

1:04:26

how well it's least fortunate are doing,

1:04:29

are taking care of, are protected. That's

1:04:31

an academic distinction that if Karl Rove was

1:04:34

sitting here, he would say, yes, I agree

1:04:36

that that's the definition and that the other

1:04:38

side feels academically like that shouldn't be it.

1:04:40

It should be how well the

1:04:42

most fortunate are doing and then it'll kind of trickle

1:04:44

down or whatever. That's

1:04:47

not me getting all call

1:04:49

to action, here's what you said. That's

1:04:52

objective definitions as far as I understand it. I'm

1:04:55

over here going like, because

1:04:58

I do, but I think part of it is because I see

1:05:01

the other version as like bound

1:05:04

for failure. It's either

1:05:06

bound for failure, it's bound for

1:05:08

instability, it's bound for chaos. If

1:05:10

you try to do trickle down

1:05:13

unregulated unhinged capitalism, if you

1:05:15

start slipping and slapping over

1:05:18

into white nationalism, you

1:05:21

may taste like a Snickers bar to you

1:05:23

because you, those

1:05:25

peanuts are really satisfying you because you didn't

1:05:27

have the breakfast of $10 million

1:05:30

in your bank account. But I'm

1:05:32

sitting over here going, I'm fine

1:05:34

with the way stuff has been

1:05:36

working, deeply flawed system, rule of

1:05:39

law, democracy. You're

1:05:41

also aware though, it's easy to pay a

1:05:43

high tax rate when you make a lot of money. You

1:05:47

know what I mean? You also

1:05:49

like- Yes, exactly. Watching me talking

1:05:51

to you today is you're

1:05:54

so intelligent that I

1:05:56

feel like you've annotated your life to death.

1:06:00

You've analyzed- Hey,

1:06:02

Neil, that must've been hard for you to say. You've

1:06:05

annotated your life to like,

1:06:09

we've kind of, and I'm in the

1:06:12

same boat a lot of times. It's

1:06:14

like, I've analyzed it to a microscopic

1:06:16

level and

1:06:19

kind of ruined it in

1:06:21

a way. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah.

1:06:23

Like kind of ruined it with,

1:06:25

I mean, analysis, paralysis from analysis,

1:06:27

all that stuff. But it's almost

1:06:29

like dissecting comedy. Yeah. It's

1:06:31

like dissecting frogs. It's like a beautiful

1:06:34

sculpture out of virgin

1:06:37

marble. But

1:06:41

there's no velvet rope around it. So

1:06:43

it's just covered in kids' fucking fingerprints.

1:06:45

Yeah. Like your own kid. Yeah.

1:06:48

There's paper cups, because you just hang out

1:06:50

and fondle the thing that

1:06:53

could otherwise be smooth and mysterious. Say,

1:06:56

hey, who sculpted that? Did his mom

1:06:58

hit him or not? Do you, where

1:07:00

do you, how do you feel on

1:07:04

the scale of positive emotions? How

1:07:06

do you, where are you with like joy and

1:07:10

happiness? Cause those are the, those to me are

1:07:13

the first ones that go Yeah.

1:07:15

from the heavy analysis. Cody and I are, I

1:07:18

think are both at a chapter of our lives

1:07:20

where we're, we're, we're

1:07:22

coping with privilege. Like we're,

1:07:24

we're, she's younger than me.

1:07:26

So. Well, it is

1:07:28

Hollywood. Go ahead. Yeah, exactly. I

1:07:31

mean, look, I had to spend

1:07:33

the extra 12 years making

1:07:35

up for my ugliness. Yeah, no,

1:07:38

yeah. You had to catch up. Yeah. How

1:07:40

the system works. The achievement. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You

1:07:42

had to close the achievement. Good looking guys got

1:07:44

to spend that 12 years learning how to treat

1:07:46

a lady on a first date. Yeah,

1:07:49

you were doing outline. Yeah. I

1:07:51

need an Emmy. My winner is small. I

1:07:55

need to lead with an IMDB entry

1:07:57

of some kind. Yes. So

1:08:00

the where were we the

1:08:03

oh it's the it's like

1:08:07

Joy this joy is like having a content and

1:08:09

like you when you're in charge of your own

1:08:12

joy Like whether you are having it or not.

1:08:14

That is like a big it's like

1:08:17

It's not so much a block as it is like a blank page

1:08:19

where you sort of like So now Cody

1:08:21

and I are talking about like should we are we

1:08:23

cruise people should we go on a cruise? Because

1:08:27

when we go to Paris We sit in the

1:08:29

hotel room and wait for the Eiffel Tower to

1:08:32

be replaced with something more interesting to look at

1:08:34

while we listen to podcasts are that what you

1:08:36

are you sure you're not an Epcot I Mean,

1:08:40

but there's other people thing. I know there's other

1:08:42

people in cruises But I think you can find

1:08:44

a cruise where it's like well Yeah, you have

1:08:46

to you have to work against yourselves where you

1:08:48

like we are claustrophobic a

1:08:50

little bit So let's go

1:08:53

make ourselves claustrophobic. So we have to

1:08:55

engage What you

1:08:57

probably have too nice a house. Yes.

1:08:59

It's comfort comfort Comfort

1:09:02

doesn't it doesn't work against joy,

1:09:05

but it's it's almost like it's like good. What

1:09:07

would a good metaphor be? It's like Comfort

1:09:09

is like it's so soft that

1:09:11

you can't You

1:09:14

can't yeah, you can't I was gonna say you can't bounce

1:09:16

but it's like a sock you can kids bounce up and

1:09:18

down in Beds they use them as trampolines. I can't find

1:09:20

the metaphor It's like you

1:09:22

need joy Yeah,

1:09:24

and comfort kind of a lot of

1:09:26

joy is also getting serotonin is only

1:09:28

real I believe serotonin is only released

1:09:31

when dopamine is only released when your

1:09:34

Expectations are exceeded. Mmm What

1:09:38

are your goals for yourself? Yeah, I don't

1:09:40

I I Feel

1:09:42

like I I feel like I keep disappointing

1:09:44

you but that's cuz I'm you have disappointed me

1:09:46

at all Okay, good. Like it's actually been I

1:09:49

think you're Representing yourself. Yeah,

1:09:51

I think this is what you're like. Okay.

1:09:53

Well that was Absolutely

1:09:56

true and backhanded I

1:10:01

think that's the brand,

1:10:04

isn't it? Yes, this

1:10:06

is who I am. What

1:10:12

I mean is I don't have a

1:10:15

good, I'm not going to

1:10:17

go hang gliding. I've

1:10:21

become a bit of a doomsday prepper, and

1:10:23

I think that's for absence of having this

1:10:25

joy. I didn't go into trying to

1:10:27

get other people

1:10:29

to like me and gain security with a

1:10:31

preconceived thought about what I would do if

1:10:34

I ever got the- The

1:10:37

$6,000 toilet. Yeah. It's

1:10:39

kind of an idea to remember the jerk

1:10:41

with Steve Martin and Madeline Conner.

1:10:47

You remember that scene after they're

1:10:49

rich and he's like, he's shooting

1:10:51

crossbows or she's taking crossbow lessons

1:10:54

or knife throwing lessons and he's

1:10:56

got dispenser

1:10:58

with martini glasses. It

1:11:03

is a little bit of they're lost. It's not a-

1:11:05

Yeah. It's a dark part of the- Well, I'm not

1:11:07

even talking about the money part. What's your goal for

1:11:09

your, if

1:11:11

you're shame based, are you trying to get

1:11:13

less? Are you trying to be

1:11:15

less of any of this stuff? I want to

1:11:17

try while I'm looking for the esteemable act, which

1:11:19

I'm not going to no soup kitchen. Yeah. Because

1:11:21

I don't, I don't, look,

1:11:23

maybe I, maybe this lifetime I fight that until

1:11:25

I'm 70 and then I finally go in a

1:11:28

soup kitchen and my brain lights up like a

1:11:30

Christmas tree and I go and I die going

1:11:32

like, I should have given

1:11:34

more soup. But

1:11:37

my therapist was quick to point out esteemable doesn't

1:11:39

mean charitable necessarily. Oh, thank God. It just means

1:11:42

like a thing that, yeah, thank you, Christ. That

1:11:44

knocks a hang gliding off of there. Um,

1:11:49

the, that it's like, when

1:11:52

I started woodworking, I

1:11:55

started experiencing sort of new, like

1:11:58

feelings that I, I'm

1:12:01

going, I think this might be esteem because

1:12:04

I can make a shelf or a

1:12:07

table and not

1:12:10

only does it not only does it not have to be important,

1:12:15

it doesn't even have to

1:12:18

be well-made because

1:12:21

it just love making

1:12:23

it and it's for me. And

1:12:27

it's, and I think

1:12:29

one of the most important things about

1:12:32

it is when I was trying to

1:12:34

explain to people like what do you get out of

1:12:36

it? And when a fellow writer asked me that, I

1:12:39

feel it clarifies for them for me to say,

1:12:42

if you make a shelf, like

1:12:45

the entire world, if

1:12:49

you wanted to do this experiment, you

1:12:51

could invite the entire world to

1:12:54

weigh in on whether it was a

1:12:56

good shelf and it

1:12:58

wouldn't change your knowledge of

1:13:02

whether you liked it or not. It's

1:13:05

like, and by the way, you're not gonna

1:13:07

bother inviting the world because you don't need

1:13:09

to, because if you put a can on

1:13:12

it and it doesn't

1:13:14

fall onto the floor, then

1:13:16

you made a shelf. For

1:13:18

me, it's an escape from the way

1:13:20

I look at the thing that we

1:13:22

used to love to do, which is

1:13:24

make the shelves of television. Well, yeah,

1:13:26

and what is the difference between an

1:13:28

episode of a TV show and a?

1:13:31

It has to, it's for

1:13:34

everyone else. And my job, my

1:13:36

employer is the audience. And I- And that's coming

1:13:38

from you who it

1:13:41

seems like there is a, the

1:13:44

appeal of it is there's like a high

1:13:46

degree of self satisfaction within it. It's like,

1:13:48

I've never watched an episode of something you've

1:13:50

written and been like, this guy's

1:13:52

all about the crowd. I get, yeah. This

1:13:54

guy's pandering. But I can say the same

1:13:57

thing about your stuff. I think that, I

1:13:59

think that that's. Don't you think

1:14:01

from having talked to all of us that

1:14:03

that is the little tricky do? That

1:14:05

the people we call hacks are people that

1:14:07

just don't know that one simple trick, which

1:14:10

is that a good pirouette is

1:14:12

like it puts your body at risk, you

1:14:14

know? And a bad pirouette, which isn't worth

1:14:16

doing, is like you holding out the rule

1:14:18

book and going like, oh,

1:14:21

how to do a perfect pirouette? And everyone's like, boo, I

1:14:23

could do that. And then they

1:14:25

want to watch somebody who appears to

1:14:27

be given to reckless abandon. It's

1:14:30

like a paradox. Rule

1:14:33

number one, I think

1:14:35

you're my

1:14:38

version of a Sith that's an

1:14:41

evil Jedi for you kids. If

1:14:44

you are convinced that you're

1:14:46

not trying

1:14:48

to please an audience and you're doing anything

1:14:51

close to what we're doing, because that just

1:14:53

seems like a fundamental delusion. But

1:14:55

then rule number two, which then now

1:14:57

starts the spiraling, is the only way

1:14:59

you're ever going to please them is

1:15:02

like they need to. You're

1:15:05

not going to please them by like chasing them

1:15:07

around and asking them where to put your TV

1:15:09

show. They're going to be like, I hired you

1:15:12

to know these things. Quickly, what does the shelf

1:15:14

where is the shelf fall into this? And I

1:15:16

mean, quickly, like, don't get on a train

1:15:19

of thought. Quickly, what's the shelf? How's

1:15:21

the shelf different? Is it all

1:15:24

there is no audience for such thing as

1:15:27

a hack shelf to me? There's a good

1:15:29

woodworker there is. Right. There's no

1:15:31

such thing as a disingenuous shelf. There's no

1:15:33

such thing as you can't critically take down my

1:15:35

shelf. You can't do it. Like, if I decide

1:15:37

I made a good shelf, I don't I don't

1:15:39

even have to have a definition of good shelf.

1:15:41

It's just a shelf. You

1:15:44

cannot make it a worthless shelf by

1:15:46

writing an essay about how

1:15:48

Harmon's up to his old shelf tricks

1:15:50

again, or this appears to be

1:15:52

a shelf at first, but it's really a

1:15:54

table on a wall. And think

1:15:57

about that for a second. Like, you

1:15:59

can change. my work by doing

1:16:01

that in my head

1:16:03

and everywhere. It's an ephemeral

1:16:05

subjective because I can't, it's

1:16:07

easy for people to go like, yeah, but who

1:16:09

cares what other people say? What are you

1:16:12

nuts? We care. It's

1:16:14

a, we're connected people. They're the boss. They're

1:16:16

God. If they're not happy, we're doing a

1:16:18

bad job. So of course we

1:16:20

care what they say. The problem

1:16:22

is they're so dumb. They're such

1:16:24

terrible, terrible, dumb, dumb people. And

1:16:26

then you, so you have to

1:16:28

have love, unconditional love for the

1:16:30

audience and go like, I am,

1:16:33

I am here to just generate general

1:16:36

joy and happiness. And the only way I

1:16:38

can do that, I have to, I

1:16:41

have to rip my sternum open. I

1:16:43

have to, I have to, I have

1:16:45

to do something they cannot get

1:16:48

at a different lemonade stand mixing a

1:16:50

couple of metaphors. I have to not

1:16:52

mix metaphors. I have to go up

1:16:54

my ass and like give them something

1:16:58

worth, something that resonates with them,

1:17:00

makes them happy. And yes,

1:17:02

that's a wonderful, beautiful, very proud of

1:17:05

the work done there. But at the

1:17:07

end of the day, esteem, I don't

1:17:09

know. Cause like if

1:17:12

I've done that the best, then what

1:17:14

have I done other than obliterate myself?

1:17:16

The shelf, holy shit. I just gave

1:17:18

myself extra space to put

1:17:21

stuff on. Like a,

1:17:23

like an Emmy that symbolizes

1:17:25

me having been

1:17:27

a not real person for long

1:17:30

enough. Wow. You

1:17:33

think in 900 word

1:17:37

bursts. I'm so sorry. You specifically asked me to

1:17:40

be concise. No, no, no, no, listen to

1:17:43

me. You

1:17:46

think a 900 word burst. Do you know at

1:17:48

the beginning of the, so when you start, it's

1:17:50

just unwrapped. You think it's three sentences and it

1:17:52

just becomes that. Yes. You're the first person that

1:17:54

I think has ever asked me that, which is

1:17:56

not to say that no one's I never had

1:17:58

this, this, this, this, this, this is such a

1:18:00

great question. No, no, but I'm curious, cause I

1:18:03

know, I know I pretty much, my

1:18:05

teleprompter is like three lines. It's a

1:18:07

great, you know where you're gonna end.

1:18:09

You're like a West Wing writer. Like

1:18:12

you're like, you're like a creator, you're

1:18:14

a craftsman. Yeah, like three, but, but

1:18:18

I would argue, I mean, it's a grass screener thing.

1:18:20

Cause like, there's a,

1:18:22

it is fun and

1:18:24

interesting to

1:18:27

watch you go on a, on

1:18:29

a tangent. And I didn't, and the

1:18:31

reason I wanted you to quickly, cause I didn't want

1:18:34

you to do that about the shelf. Cause it wasn't

1:18:36

important enough to me. But like,

1:18:39

but there are people like you and there is

1:18:41

a, I don't mind grandiosity

1:18:43

as long as it's entertaining. And

1:18:45

I, you, you, you are,

1:18:47

you are grandiose and entertaining.

1:18:50

And I, so I'm giving you a dispensation.

1:18:57

It's fun to watch your brain go. I've

1:18:59

tried to explain it to people in the

1:19:02

past, not excuse it, but explain it that,

1:19:04

that it's also

1:19:06

the explanation for why I say

1:19:08

bad things is because there, my

1:19:10

brain is doing nothing

1:19:12

until the propeller in my throat

1:19:17

starts blowing air through my vocal cords.

1:19:19

It does. And then that

1:19:22

starts powering as a

1:19:24

side thing. Like,

1:19:26

like, like the, the mouth is talking

1:19:29

like a cockroach's legs are running. And

1:19:31

like, and then the brain is

1:19:34

neat. Goes, we need to fill

1:19:36

this. Yes. Yes.

1:19:39

It yeah. It's a talking, I'm

1:19:41

a talking machine. But

1:19:43

you also are getting it with a, with a,

1:19:45

with a talking machine, wifi,

1:19:49

like computer, let me

1:19:51

see if I can understand this. Cause

1:19:54

I clearly you're getting at

1:19:56

something when, okay. The propeller

1:19:59

starts going. the

1:20:01

throat propeller, you

1:20:03

start, so you're, but then you have

1:20:05

something you want to communicate. Do

1:20:08

you know, do you have a, but I see this

1:20:10

as a metaphor for an episode of a TV show.

1:20:12

So are your episodes ever

1:20:14

done or are they just

1:20:17

the do? Yeah, they're do. They're never finished. They're

1:20:19

just like, this is as close as we could

1:20:21

get. Gotta get, gotta get. This isn't, I don't

1:20:23

even really like, I don't even know how I

1:20:26

feel about this anymore. Yeah,

1:20:28

until the audience, until

1:20:30

it's finished, finished like a collaboration, once

1:20:32

the, it doesn't need to be once

1:20:35

it airs, like you see a final

1:20:37

sound mixed of something. You've

1:20:39

got an audience of collaborators, 200

1:20:41

people, if you're

1:20:43

from the network Camelot, like people

1:20:47

have like gradually, like before it goes off

1:20:49

the assembly line, there are more, I go,

1:20:51

this is a great episode of television. And

1:20:53

sometimes I'll even say, like

1:20:57

very specifically, cause it's me sorting through it

1:20:59

in my head, like I'll even say out

1:21:01

loud, I like this

1:21:03

episode so much that I actually don't

1:21:06

care if everyone

1:21:09

reveals to me that it sucks. Like,

1:21:11

which is, I think

1:21:13

a lie, it's a lie, but

1:21:16

it is an expression of, I'm able to

1:21:18

like it that much in that moment. Yes,

1:21:20

almost. You want your baby to be beautiful,

1:21:22

but like, this sucks

1:21:25

and it, but it, you

1:21:27

know, I'm- You can believably

1:21:29

convince yourself you don't care. I,

1:21:32

yes, because I'm, because experiences and

1:21:34

luck have taught me that if

1:21:36

I can allow people to force

1:21:39

me into a schedule and I

1:21:41

can keep from getting fired, that

1:21:44

the end result will be complete products that everybody can

1:21:46

be proud of and make people happy. Do you have

1:21:49

a secret belief

1:21:51

that it needs to be torturous to

1:21:53

be good? No, I

1:21:55

don't believe in that. I believed that when

1:21:57

I was 25. I don't believe that

1:21:59

the- darkness, that the self-hatred

1:22:02

is important to the

1:22:04

craft at all. I think that's a

1:22:06

dodge. Yeah. All right. Well, I was

1:22:08

also good, but there's something within your,

1:22:12

I'll give you some credit for your

1:22:14

verbosity, which is you feel,

1:22:16

you would almost feel dishonest to

1:22:19

stop talking, to

1:22:22

not finish a thought. It

1:22:24

would feel dishonest to not finish

1:22:26

this thought. Like, I should, like,

1:22:28

I feel

1:22:30

like I should also say this, like

1:22:33

caveats on caveats on caveats, because you

1:22:35

did think it and you

1:22:38

don't want to be dishonest and not sort of

1:22:40

verbalize it. Wait, I'm sorry. I'm

1:22:42

getting tangled in the negatives

1:22:44

there. No, no, the positive is

1:22:47

that you are your

1:22:49

grandiose, but what I

1:22:52

would say, the reason you're grandiose is because maybe

1:22:54

it's ego, but I also think that there is

1:22:57

a part of you that feels like

1:22:59

you should say it because you thought it

1:23:01

and it would be dishonest to not say

1:23:03

it. Yes, yes, yes. And like, I would

1:23:05

like to just complete this thought because the

1:23:08

thought wants completion. Yes, yes. Absolutely.

1:23:11

And also, I don't want, it's

1:23:14

like people who talk in sound bites, like, they're

1:23:18

manipulating people. That's

1:23:20

not me being sour grapes. I just mean

1:23:23

that's what my brain is doing. It's like,

1:23:25

if I said something and finished

1:23:27

it, then

1:23:29

I should be president, shouldn't I? Because I've

1:23:32

become a master of understanding what people need

1:23:34

to hear. And also, I'm so confident in

1:23:36

what I think that I just gonna, oh,

1:23:38

sounds like I said the right amount of

1:23:40

things and now give me my cracker. Yeah.

1:23:42

Yeah. I mean, I have this, you're right.

1:23:44

I mean, it's very nice of you to

1:23:46

say, Dan,

1:23:48

you're absolutely irritating, motor

1:23:50

mouth. I

1:23:53

really don't think that. I think you're

1:23:55

legitimately. From honesty. I've enjoyed everything you've

1:23:57

said. I really have. Like, I

1:24:00

find. I find you very interesting. It's

1:24:03

just- And it seemed like you had a better time with Dave Keckner. Well,

1:24:07

I like that you went at the SNL people

1:24:09

for it. You watched all the SNL people. Now, I

1:24:12

listened to my favorite people. I

1:24:14

started with Patton and then I went

1:24:16

right to Keckner because I loved him

1:24:18

and I thought it was amazing that

1:24:20

I was like, why

1:24:23

did my conversations with Keckner always go so

1:24:26

quickly that one of us crying? And

1:24:28

it was such a great- Right there. Like

1:24:30

you making fun of him. Well,

1:24:34

the reason I said that is because one of

1:24:36

your blocks is constant interrupting of others and

1:24:38

refusal and inability to be interrupted. So,

1:24:41

but you've been pretty good. Face

1:24:44

blindness, and

1:24:46

I also empathize with a lot of these or

1:24:48

sympathize, you've

1:24:50

obviously accused yourself of being too egotistical

1:24:54

to remember people. Right, right. I

1:24:57

think that, yeah, I don't know. I took a

1:24:59

test online for like clinical, like

1:25:01

you have an actual medical excuse to

1:25:03

be face blind. And I scored right

1:25:05

above the medical excuse,

1:25:11

which I took to mean a confirmation

1:25:13

of my suspicion, which is it's not

1:25:15

a spectrum thing. I

1:25:19

think my theory is that your brain

1:25:21

and childhood, it's like the

1:25:23

glucose is going to different departments

1:25:25

and budget meetings. And what profit

1:25:27

was this little animal like getting

1:25:30

from knowing the difference between which

1:25:32

two guys is making fun of

1:25:34

him for peeing with his pants

1:25:36

around his ankles. Like, oh, that's

1:25:39

Steve and that's Stucky. What

1:25:41

are your birthdays? I've

1:25:43

got to get the hell out of here so

1:25:45

I can enslave these people with my talent. Yeah,

1:25:48

I don't know their names. So then your brain, by

1:25:50

the time you want to know people's names, that

1:25:53

part of your brain could be atrophied.

1:25:55

Why am I using you statements? My,

1:25:57

that part of my brain. Great.