0:00

ASOS had run out of money. Nick,

0:02

the founder, sold his car to pay

0:04

the staff payroll. It was everything about

0:06

keeping ASOS alive. Nick Beaton, former

0:08

CEO of ASOS and Matches Fashion. He's

0:10

here to show you what it takes

0:12

for a CEO to grow a

0:14

company from $200 million to $4 billion. What

0:18

has been the main reason for this success? We

0:20

had an amazing team who was super

0:22

passionate about what they were doing. We

0:25

were being super disruptive. We were focused

0:27

on winning. I never grew up wanting

0:29

to be an accountant. I went into

0:31

it going, I can do it. I

0:34

love the way it trained in my

0:36

brain. Always be authentic, brave, creative and

0:38

disciplined. Don't pretend you know. If

0:41

you pretend you know, you'll get it

0:43

wrong. I was super emotional about ASOS because I was in

0:45

love with it. What do you think

0:47

everyone at e-commerce needs to know about

0:49

e-commerce? So first of all. Hello,

0:55

my fellow leaders. Welcome back to Anatomy

0:57

of a Leader with me, Maria Vorostovsky.

0:59

I'm an executive head hunter, career coach

1:01

and host of the show. Here we

1:03

talk about how to find career fulfillment,

1:05

how to succeed in business and how

1:07

to live well whilst doing so. Very

1:09

quickly, I really need your help. We

1:11

have entered the podcast awards and then

1:13

listeners choice is now open for voting.

1:15

You can directly support our show by

1:17

voting for us. Just click the link

1:19

in the show notes, look

1:22

up on Anatomy of a Leader and get

1:24

voting. Promise you I will

1:26

not let you down. Thank you

1:28

so much. Nick. Hey. Welcome

1:30

to Anatomy of a Leader. Lovely to be here, Maria. Nice

1:33

to meet you. And you. Well, before

1:35

we get started talking about your time

1:37

as CEO at ASOS and I have

1:39

to know, where did you get your tan?

1:42

Oh, crikey. So coming

1:44

out matches, I've done

1:46

an awful lot of yoga and an

1:48

awful lot of golf. And fortunately,

1:50

the last few weeks, it's been good weather.

1:52

So I seem to have that skin. Yeah,

1:55

well, for blonde hair, blue eyes, I don't know

1:58

where it comes from, but yes. I definitely. town

2:00

well. Yeah you look like you've been surfing like

2:02

for the summer. I mean for the story I

2:04

could say I have but I haven't. So

2:07

I've just been out and about in the garden

2:09

out and about on my bike out about playing

2:11

golf. That sounds very healthy lifestyle

2:13

is that something that you've always maintained in

2:15

your life? Yeah always try to keep a

2:17

little bit of balance it kind of puts

2:19

my brain back together and so

2:22

being on a bike doing a bit of yoga

2:24

doing a bit of golf I found yoga late

2:26

it puts my brain back together

2:29

and so it's not the only thing I do

2:31

but it's one of the things that keeps me

2:33

focused keeps me centered and if on my bike

2:35

I can't think about anything else because I'll fall

2:37

off. Yeah I have to concentrate. So it makes

2:39

it helps me switch off. Yeah I'm

2:42

really glad you say that because I

2:44

know I meet a lot of people who

2:46

really discover taking care of their brain and

2:48

their bodies quite late in their kind of

2:51

business career and it's something that they feel

2:53

like they have to play catch up to

2:55

do but it makes such a massive difference

2:57

to your ability to

2:59

perform on the job. 100% so

3:02

there's a couple of these the phrase I

3:04

always use is be active on active active

3:07

off and if active off

3:09

is reading a book doing

3:11

some painting or just hanging

3:13

out with a family or your friends do that

3:16

but it doesn't have to be sport because not

3:19

everyone wants to do sport do yoga do cycling

3:21

do golf but just find something to be active

3:23

off because that keeps everything in balance and

3:26

it's best to know wherever your

3:29

power source is and if your power source

3:31

is your friends and family go back to

3:33

that to rejuvenate your power source if

3:36

they don't want to hang out with you that

3:38

particular moment go and read a book read the

3:40

paper switch off so be active on be active

3:42

off is what I've always tried to do but

3:44

I mean I didn't get that in my 20s

3:47

because when you're in your 20s you think you're

3:49

invincible so you just run hard and

3:51

keep running hard and then you realize you're

3:53

burning yourself out so you've got to find

3:55

a different mechanism. So at which point did

3:58

you realize that you can't maintain that sort

4:00

of relentless, hostile kind

4:02

of style. When you

4:05

look yourself in the mirror and

4:07

you've got bags under your eyes

4:09

and you're genuinely tired and

4:12

you're not focusing on the things you

4:14

want to focus on and you're being

4:16

ratty around the people that you are

4:18

close to. So it's

4:20

probably my early 30s while I realized it

4:22

when I was bringing back issues and being

4:24

ratty with my wife, ratty with my friends

4:26

and family. I'm like, I need to find

4:29

a different mechanism. I've got to

4:31

keep something in check. I can't perform 100 miles an hour

4:34

without putting something back. So it was round

4:36

about my 30s, I understood that. So you

4:39

kind of only learned the hard way. Yeah,

4:41

totally. I mean, there's often things

4:43

that you tell people, but

4:46

the things you mostly tell people are

4:48

through experience rather than things you've done.

4:51

And so I developed a

4:53

meditation type technique. Now, if anyone's

4:55

listening who is proper into meditation,

4:57

they will scream at this.

4:59

But I know now when

5:02

it's time for me to decompress and

5:06

it came at me when I was

5:08

at Matalan years ago, I was put

5:10

in charge of technology, CIO. I

5:13

was totally equipped for that. And there

5:15

was one moment where all

5:17

the tools weren't working, the warehouse

5:19

wasn't working, and it was all

5:21

to do with technology. And so I

5:24

was getting screamed at by the CEO, screamed

5:26

at by the founder. And I'm

5:28

like, I just don't know what's going wrong here.

5:30

So I went to speak to the IT guys.

5:32

They came over and explained what happened. And

5:34

they used a phrase going, the database has been

5:36

congested, now we've got a number of database locks

5:38

at the locks, and we need

5:40

to go through defragmentation process. So

5:43

I had to kind of say, you have to explain what

5:45

that means, talk to me like I'm five, because I have

5:47

no idea what you've just said. And

5:49

then the IT guy rolled his

5:51

eyes and went, here's another guy in charge

5:54

of IT, who doesn't understand IT. And

5:56

he was right. And he said, well,

5:58

you're old enough to remember. directory or in it

6:00

I said yes I am and

6:02

he said imagine pulling out every page of

6:04

the telephone directory and then putting it all

6:06

back together in a non chronological order I

6:09

went yeah he said that's what happens with

6:11

the database I went how's it

6:13

get that way he said keep hitting

6:15

the same records it gets fragmented it

6:17

needs re-indict re-indicting and re-fragmenting I went

6:20

brilliant and as you walked away I

6:22

went that's what happened to my brain so

6:25

I kind of developed a my

6:27

own mental defrag process where

6:30

it was like I keep hitting the same

6:32

files in my brain I suddenly get a

6:34

little bit foggy get a little bit ratty

6:36

less clear so I kind of

6:38

go into a meditative process where I'm going what

6:41

am I gonna leave behind what's not

6:43

making me stronger what do I need

6:45

to take forward and I found

6:47

if I ask myself those questions get out

6:49

of the way do a little bit of

6:52

active off the answers come to me and

6:54

the things that were bothering me and slowing

6:56

me down often the things that I

6:58

can't control or won't happen and they're the ones that

7:00

were also waking me up in the middle of the

7:02

night so I go into that process

7:04

every three months or so so I caught my own

7:07

mental defrag which I credit to that IT

7:09

guy who was rolling his eyes speaking to

7:12

me many years ago when I was at

7:14

Matalan I

7:16

love this idea of figuring

7:19

out in your through experience like

7:21

where at which point you get

7:23

to this sort of frazzled state

7:26

where your brain is literally like scrambled and

7:28

then learning that and being able to like

7:30

spot the signs and then be able to

7:32

say you know what I'm dealing with this

7:35

situation that I need to then kind

7:37

of like unwind myself from it

7:39

yeah definitely I mean so it was

7:42

it came at me through experience the trial

7:44

and error for actually go I've got to

7:46

sort something out here so it certainly wasn't

7:48

something that I planned to do it was

7:50

something I developed and went right that's good

7:52

many years later when I was CEO

7:54

ASOS and I moved it

7:57

on again and the same process I

7:59

met a guy called Kieran Brecken who

8:01

was chief exec at Logica at the

8:03

time. He and I did a panel and

8:06

I've stole shamelessly this story from

8:08

him and this process from him

8:11

and I don't do it quite as religiously

8:13

as he does but he

8:15

talks about firing himself every

8:17

year and so

8:20

this is a CEO so he goes I'm

8:22

going to fire myself every year and then

8:24

I'm going to rehire myself the following week

8:27

and I'm going to be rehired

8:30

by the very person who knows

8:33

everything about me, everything that

8:35

I've been doing well, everything that I've not

8:38

done and everything that I need to do

8:40

and that person is me and

8:42

so he then talks about what you

8:45

say to yourself to rehire yourself to

8:47

go again and be fit for running

8:49

the organization and I love that. That's

8:52

kind of like you can't hire from yourself and

8:55

so I've done that a few

8:57

times and so

8:59

that's quite a good process too. It just kind of shreds

9:02

the things that are

9:04

not helping you and actually goes right this is

9:06

what I need to do and rehire and

9:09

I personally feel it quite energizing. It's

9:11

like shedding your what's not

9:13

serving you anymore and then

9:16

being very intentional about what you're going

9:18

to bring back in. Correct. So it's

9:20

like what you know what doesn't need

9:22

to be here like go away and

9:24

let's focus on what the bigger picture

9:26

here is. Clear the mental price, clear

9:28

your mental processes, refocus on what's important.

9:30

So really good processor. I'm

9:32

sure many people have some similar

9:34

processes because it builds your own

9:36

resilience, it builds your own focus

9:39

and it's very difficult to say

9:41

this is how you

9:44

should do it. It's just a this is a

9:47

process that works for certain people. If you do

9:49

something similar I think it's important that you will

9:51

find your own process. Take

9:54

me back to your early

9:56

years. Where did you grow up? I

9:58

grew up in Nottingham. and

10:01

one of one of them all boy

10:03

family and We're

10:06

up at the council house in Nottinghamshire My

10:08

father was the first one to go

10:11

to university now in our house. What

10:13

was the poly actually? and

10:15

everyone else in our family were coal miners or

10:18

steel workers all the way back.

10:20

I've done the ancestry.com

10:23

all the way back to the 18th century.

10:25

They're all coal miners or worked in mines

10:27

and things like that So yeah, that was

10:29

kind of where I grew up. Hmm. And how

10:31

did that shape you? Tough

10:34

I knew you'd asked me that I don't really know

10:37

so It was

10:39

apart from it was you coped

10:41

with what you coped with You

10:44

got on with whatever you got on with

10:47

and there was a general feeling of hard

10:49

work and endeavor And

10:51

it was kind of like you don't get anything

10:53

unless you put some effort in so those were

10:55

definitely feelings

10:58

that I got. My father passed away

11:00

or died when I was nine and

11:03

so then there was a different feeling in the

11:05

house where it was I probably

11:07

ought to Take

11:09

a bit more responsibility and I felt that

11:11

many years later Felt like I was

11:13

a bit more responsible and I felt like I had to live

11:15

up to something Not really

11:18

knowing what that thing is, but kind of had that

11:20

feeling. Which where are you in the

11:22

birth order of your siblings? I'm the oldest so

11:24

you are the oldest three boys and how old were

11:26

you when your father passed away? Nine years old. Nine

11:28

years old you said yeah How

11:31

how did you feel then? So,

11:35

I mean this is this is not how

11:37

I'd advise people dealing with it. I've

11:39

probably put it in a box and left

11:41

it in a box Probably

11:45

45 years But

11:49

So it's every now and then I peek in the box

11:52

and but most the time I leave it in the box

11:54

So I know that's not how you should do it, but

11:56

that's kind of how I've dealt with it I

11:58

feel like it's I mean it's just surviving coping

12:01

mechanism, especially when you're so

12:03

young, to, you need

12:06

to get on with it because it could be

12:08

so overwhelming that can just consume you. So I

12:11

think it's there for a reason. That coping strategy

12:13

is there for a reason. Yeah, I

12:15

feel like the box is there looking after me, but

12:17

I don't need to go and revisit it all the time. Yeah.

12:21

So you were nine years old, growing

12:24

up in a family, tough times,

12:26

having to, what you said was, what I really

12:28

like, what you said is work

12:30

hard and endeavor. So this idea of, well,

12:32

if you're going to get anywhere, you have

12:34

to work for it and you have to

12:36

be enterprising. There's

12:39

nothing given to you. Yeah, and you have to

12:41

do something differently too. Correct. Always

12:43

had that feeling. It sent

12:45

me on a different path that

12:48

my father did pass away because

12:53

I don't think I will be what I've

12:55

achieved now without it. So

12:57

it meant that some

12:59

people came to assist my mum

13:03

and then took me under their wing

13:05

and gave me opportunities that I might

13:07

not have had before. So for example,

13:09

there was one guy who

13:11

kind of became a pseudo father figure for many

13:13

years, said round about

13:15

my A-Levels time, said, why

13:20

don't you come and work in my office?

13:22

Why don't you come and work in my office during

13:26

the summer? And that office was an accounting office.

13:28

I'd never thought about doing accounting at all.

13:32

So after my A-Levels, which

13:34

weren't great, they were very average,

13:37

I joined the Royal Marines and

13:39

I signed up to be a Royal Marine. And he

13:41

said, why don't you come and

13:43

do some accounting? Now you can't think of two

13:46

things more polar opposite. And

13:48

so my mum wasn't massively keen on me

13:51

signing up to do Royal Marines. They

13:53

were active in Northern Ireland at that point in

13:55

time and she's from Northern Ireland. So she wasn't

13:58

massively keen on that. And

14:00

so I tell you what, I'll go and

14:03

do some work in the counting office.

14:05

And at that point in time, it

14:07

was small traders, small businessmen, bringing

14:09

in a bag of invoices and

14:12

a few bank statements and going,

14:15

can you tell me how much money I've made? And

14:17

so it literally was with a pencil and rubber

14:19

on a extended trial balance, working

14:21

out how much money they'd made. I

14:24

quite liked it. But the

14:27

thing that was most inspirational for me was

14:30

looking at the people around me. So I'd be

14:32

18-ish when I was doing that. The people around

14:34

me had all got good degrees. They'd all gone

14:36

to a decent university. They'd got great air bubbles.

14:39

I'd got none of that. And

14:41

I'm like, well, why am

14:43

I different to them? Well, I'm not different

14:45

to them apart from actually they have worked

14:47

harder, got the butts in order, been to

14:49

university. So I kind of went, well, I

14:51

think I can do that. So

14:53

after a period of time, they

14:56

asked me whether I was interested. The same guy asked

14:58

me if I was interested in doing it. I went,

15:00

yeah, yeah, I can be an accountant. So I ditched

15:02

the Royal Marines. And they said, well,

15:05

you have to go and do some more air levels because your

15:07

air levels are terrible. I went, yeah, they are. So

15:09

I did two more air levels at night school. Then

15:11

I went and did an accounting course at Trent

15:13

Poly, which is the same poly my dad went to. Not

15:16

in Trent University now. And

15:19

I then started the training contract

15:21

at KPMG and

15:23

became a child accountant. When

15:26

you decided that you wanted to pursue this

15:28

path and you've seen people who basically

15:30

were role models saying, well, if they can do

15:32

it, I can do it too. Was it easier

15:35

then to study at A

15:37

levels and when you were doing or did

15:39

it still feel challenging like you

15:41

had to push yourself? It still felt challenging

15:43

because I was doing three nights a week at night

15:45

school. I did two A levels at night at night

15:48

school, did accounting and economics at night school. So I

15:50

was working in the day and then three nights a

15:52

week. Doing

15:54

at night school. And then

15:56

I had other people help me. as

16:00

well. So yeah, it was challenging. It felt like

16:02

it's all I was doing, working

16:04

and doing A levels for a year, but

16:06

it was worth it because it kind of like reset

16:09

something and put me on a different path. So

16:12

then you said KPMG. Yeah. Yeah. How

16:14

was that? Loved it. Lots

16:17

of young people, lots of bright

16:19

people, different clients every week, and

16:23

different challenges. And what I love most

16:25

about it is the way it trains

16:27

your brain. And so it's

16:29

a mental discipline, which suits me. And

16:31

didn't know it suited me is how

16:33

to think, how to analyze, how to

16:35

diagnose different problems and

16:37

a routine and process. And every

16:40

week I was turning up, speaking

16:42

to CEOs and CFOs, probably

16:44

asking them about something low level about

16:47

how can I match this invoice to

16:49

a purchase order. But it was you

16:51

were meeting with other people that were

16:53

here, achieved and were successful. And you

16:56

tend to get the sense of the

16:58

things you need to be doing. And

17:00

I wanted to do those things too.

17:03

So finance background, we're probably going to have to

17:05

skip a lot because otherwise we're going to be

17:07

here. You became the finance controller at Mattalan. Yeah.

17:14

So that kind of led you to there. What

17:16

was your experience like there? So

17:18

the very first week I joined

17:22

Mattalan, I was given

17:24

a task to do. I was head of business planning

17:26

and finance. And they said, we want you

17:28

to do a planning process, put together a five year plan of

17:32

how we link stock management, store management,

17:34

store forecasts, warehouse forecasts. I went fine,

17:36

I can do this. So I

17:38

did all that. And I

17:40

socialized it with all the operating board. I was

17:43

a member of the operating board. Thought

17:45

I'd nailed the presentation. And

17:48

the very first operating board after I'd done

17:50

it, which was a month later, the

17:53

presentation was an absolute car crash.

17:56

And the CEO at the time, the

17:58

chap called Angus Monroe. who was

18:00

extremely numerous capable guy, went, so

18:02

that's really good Nick, and

18:04

so what are we gonna, how much we're

18:07

gonna take at Christmas, and this was

18:09

round about October, I said well I don't know Angus, because

18:12

you asked me to do a long range plan, he

18:14

said yeah but I'm really interested in what the Christmas

18:16

sales plan was, and then

18:18

the whole meeting kind

18:21

of turned and I certainly

18:23

felt very exposed going sugar, I

18:26

wish he'd asked me that because I hadn't done

18:28

it, but what it taught me was

18:30

that they'd had three days trading that

18:33

wasn't where they wanted it to be, and

18:35

they were therefore worried about the near-term forecasts,

18:37

and had focus on the long term, so

18:39

it was a really interesting lesson that in retail you've

18:42

got to be all over the details day to day,

18:44

it works day to day, and the day to day

18:46

informs you, and so I walked out

18:48

of that meeting, went to the CFO at the time and

18:50

said I'm really sorry I've let you down, called

18:53

the headhunter and went I think you've put me in the

18:55

wrong place I need to leave, the

18:57

headhunter talked me back around and said don't be deaf

18:59

Nick these are the reasons why I wanted to do

19:01

it, there's a lesson in there for you, went

19:03

back to the CFO and said I'm so sorry

19:06

and he went I thought it was a really

19:08

good meeting, he said the only

19:10

thing that you missed was you weren't looking

19:12

at the sales forecast day to day basis

19:14

and standing in the shoes of the rest

19:16

of the operating board, which I wasn't, so

19:19

I never made that mistake again, and I

19:21

became fascinated by retail that there were things

19:24

moving all the time, there's a machine turning

19:26

24-7, someone's always buying

19:28

something, someone's always selling something, something's

19:30

always being fulfilled, there's always technology

19:32

working, so it was a really good lesson

19:35

early doors. Was that your first

19:37

role in retail? Yes it was, at

19:40

KPMG I did consulting, corporate finance and

19:42

accounting, always retail clients but that's my

19:44

first time I've actually been in retail.

19:48

Well in some ways also because you haven't had

19:50

that background, you know you had to pretty much

19:52

pick everything up when you were there, so it's

19:55

not totally surprising that you would

19:57

have missed something. Yeah totally, I mean

19:59

the those guys I

20:01

was working with were super

20:03

established traders, merchandisers, marketing guys

20:07

and you know they I was giving them something

20:09

that I would do tomorrow so the work was

20:11

fine but I just totally missed the fact I

20:13

was not studying their shoes and they were all

20:16

worried about the current trading and I was coming

20:18

in going this is where we're going. So

20:21

how did you end up at ASOS? I

20:24

did a short time in Lechebus, I've

20:26

matched land seven years, did a short

20:28

time in a hospitality leisure

20:31

business and then I met

20:33

the current CFO at an accountant dinner

20:35

at Brocket

20:39

Hall with PwC

20:41

and I sat next to him and

20:44

I'd never heard of ASOS and

20:46

I had a lovely conversation with this guy

20:49

John Cumberludden and he

20:51

apparently went back to the founder who was

20:54

also a Nick and said if you ever want

20:56

me to do a different role I've just met

20:58

my replacement which was me. Now

21:00

I didn't know this some months later

21:02

I headhunted phone me up and said

21:04

are you interested in ASOS? I

21:06

went well I don't know anything about it but I met

21:09

this lovely guy a few months ago he said they want

21:11

to talk to you so I went to

21:13

meet the founder so I went to

21:15

meet the HR director first, a lady called Andrea

21:18

and it was a very small company it

21:20

was there was probably at

21:23

that time there was less than 200 million

21:25

turnover a couple hundred people in the office

21:27

maximum and the interview

21:29

I had was doubled up as

21:32

a changing room so while I

21:35

was meeting the HR director there

21:37

was a screen behind me and

21:39

I became aware that people were getting

21:42

undressed and getting and getting changed and

21:44

I said just what's going on there?

21:46

Scrappy! Scrappy! I said that's

21:48

where the models change and

21:50

I'm like so there was a screen in the

21:53

room and the models were changing behind me and

21:55

then in an office around the corner that's where

21:57

the catwalk was set up so I'm

21:59

like there's something really compelling about

22:01

this. I quite liked it.

22:03

So I went back to

22:06

home and told my wife and I said this would

22:09

be the smallest company I've ever worked for. I'll

22:11

have to take a bit of a pay cut but you

22:14

know what this is something really special

22:16

that I'm getting from this. She

22:18

said if you want to give it a go and you'll be happy

22:20

go do it. So I did. I

22:23

met the founder. We had a

22:25

fantastic first meeting and

22:27

then he asked me to come back for a final interview and

22:30

the final interview was at the pub in Camden

22:33

and at 11.30 when I

22:38

left the pub and we had dinner I said

22:41

that was the longest interview I've ever had. Have

22:43

I got the job yet because I can't cope

22:45

with another interview. And he said I'll let you

22:49

know in the morning and that was it and then we start I started

22:51

in 2009. Which pub was it

22:53

in Camden. York and Albany. Okay.

22:56

I know it well. Yeah. In Camden very

22:58

well. We had an awful lot of very

23:00

important discussions in that pub. Yeah. It's

23:02

I mean it's it's a it's

23:04

not even a gastropub it's like a proper

23:06

restaurant. So it's not like a pub in

23:09

Camden. Yeah. OK. It's a posh pub posh

23:11

pub slash restaurant. So you started as a

23:13

CFO. How did you make the transition

23:15

from CFO to CEO. So

23:18

the winner joined the

23:20

founder Nick was going right.

23:22

You look after this which is CFO

23:25

and then he went I think you can

23:27

do logistics. Why don't you have logistics.

23:29

So Nick was quite happy for me

23:31

to run all the all the execution

23:34

areas. And I've had some

23:36

experience of that at Matalan. So

23:38

I'd I'd had done it at

23:40

Matalan. I'd done some distribution work

23:42

on. So I became business change

23:44

director. So I went fine. And

23:47

so I running distribution

23:51

which was fulfillment and to

23:54

to consumer. And

23:56

so it became natural that I

23:58

was almost operator. and finance

24:00

guy and then I ended up

24:02

picking up technology as well. So the

24:05

only things I wasn't running until

24:07

Nick and I made the switch was

24:10

product and marketing and people. So

24:14

by the time Nick and I did

24:16

the switch from where he formally

24:18

stepped down and I became CEO, I felt

24:21

like I was running big chunks of

24:23

the organization. And

24:26

how did I do it? I focused

24:29

on the learnings I had when I was

24:31

first in IT director, when

24:33

I did nothing about IT. I

24:35

asked a lot of questions, put a lot of

24:37

challenges in, listened, asked them the same three questions,

24:40

what's the benefit of that, why should we do it,

24:42

where's the final strategy, what's it do for our customer.

24:46

And then I spent an awful lot of time

24:48

walking around warehouses, going through technology,

24:50

just went deep and made sure I

24:53

understood what the people were telling me

24:56

meant. In which

24:58

way your finance background was an advantage to you

25:00

then? Because

25:03

one of the key aspects of finance

25:05

is analytical discipline. One

25:07

of the key aspects of becoming a

25:09

great leader is curiosity. And

25:12

so be curious, use analytical discipline.

25:14

And I actually went, if

25:16

I'm curious, I sit, listen and analyze, I'll

25:18

be able to figure out what needs to

25:21

be done and how it needs to be

25:23

done. And I need to

25:25

also spend a lot of time standing in

25:27

their shoes. So learning all the way back

25:29

from Ataland, where I hadn't stood in the

25:31

shoes of the operating board, I stood in

25:33

the shoes. So I went around

25:35

the warehouses, I went deep in technology, I went

25:37

through the architecture maps, I went and stood and

25:40

picked and packed boxes. So I knew what it

25:42

felt like and I knew what they were dealing

25:44

with. Now not suggesting I was an operator, anything

25:46

like as good as them, but I understand what

25:48

they were trying to do and why they were

25:50

trying to do it. And

25:53

in which way having a finance background

25:55

was a disadvantage to you? Oh,

25:58

that's a good question. I suppose

26:00

people looked at me as

26:02

the numbers guy, rather than a solutions

26:05

guy. So, but after

26:07

a period of time, they saw how I deployed

26:11

myself, saw outstanding in their shoes,

26:13

that went. Obviously,

26:16

you've dealt with a lot of people within finance.

26:18

What do you think made you different? That's

26:22

a really good question. First

26:24

of all, there was, I never

26:26

grew up wanting to be an accountant. I

26:28

went, I went into it going, I can

26:30

do it. I love

26:32

the way it trained my brain. And

26:35

I was generally curious and interested

26:37

in how businesses work. I

26:40

got real love of trying to figure out

26:42

what consumers were doing. And I just

26:44

followed that. And so when I

26:46

was CFO, I made sure the back end numbers

26:49

were tight, but I actually put myself into

26:51

the organization as best I can, alongside

26:53

the operators, so I could help them

26:56

shape decisions before they actually hit the

26:58

P&L account, hit the cash flow or

27:00

hit the balance sheet. So it became

27:02

a natural flip. So I would say

27:04

curiosity, analytical discipline, listening, and

27:07

then challenging were key aspects that

27:09

I used. What

27:11

was Nick Robertson, the founder of ASOS like

27:13

to work with? Super

27:16

inspirational guy. He and I were good mates

27:20

and very focused on his mission,

27:22

very focused on customer experience. He

27:26

had a couple of phrases that stay with me,

27:28

like never be afraid to turn left when others turn

27:30

right. You know, a classic entrepreneur. And

27:33

so very inspirational, built great business that I

27:36

was lucky to be part of. That's

27:39

a great thing. Like never be afraid of looking left

27:42

when everyone's going right. So can you give me

27:44

an example of what that happened? Yeah,

27:47

sure. So we did it

27:49

all the time. I wove this into the

27:51

core values. So when I did

27:53

take over, I had to, because

27:56

the scale had gone. So Nick left when the turnover was

27:58

about 800 million or well. times on the

28:00

board. I then became

28:02

CEO. When I left, the

28:05

turnover was 4 billion and

28:07

we'd gone from 200 people to about three

28:09

and a half thousand in London and 10,000 globally

28:12

in various warehouses, US, Berlin

28:15

and Barnsley. We had

28:17

to make some of the, as you get bigger, you have to

28:19

make some of these principles more

28:22

embedded. So I'll wrap them up in values. And

28:25

he's tell lots of stories about never

28:28

be afraid to turn left when others turn right and

28:30

then go because if it doesn't work out,

28:32

you go back the

28:35

other way. But if it does work out and you

28:37

find something interesting, follow it. And

28:39

so the values became always be authentic,

28:41

brave, creative and disciplined. So authentic was

28:43

I've just hired you for your passion,

28:45

your talent and enthusiasm. That's what I

28:47

want you to bring to work. But

28:50

bring your best self because the brand deserves

28:52

it. The customer deserves it. Your team deserves

28:54

it. Be brave. Your bravery

28:56

was always never be afraid to turn left

28:58

when others turn right because you might find

29:01

something interesting. I'll give an example in a

29:03

second. And then the other one was creative

29:06

is be creative in whatever you do, whether it's

29:08

in finance, design, product, marketing, because

29:10

actually, you know, we're only here selling clothes.

29:13

So let's be creative and have fun with

29:15

what you're doing. And then the last one

29:17

I added a few years later was D

29:19

for discipline. Whatever it is you

29:22

do, be disciplined about it. Hone your craft.

29:24

Right. So this is not

29:27

death by PowerPoint. This is not death by

29:29

KPIs. This is honing

29:31

your craft become good at whatever it is

29:33

you do. And so that

29:35

was the value framework. And

29:37

that's a whole number of stories behind it.

29:39

And here's a great one is

29:42

ASOS was famous for selling clothes. But

29:45

one of the key stories was

29:47

the chameleon phone. And so

29:49

in I think it was early 2004,

29:53

ASOS had run out of money or was closer

29:55

and out of money. So Nick,

29:57

the founder sold his car to pay the

29:59

$10,000. staff payroll. Fortunately there was not

30:01

many staff around because

30:05

on his own admission it wasn't the best car but

30:07

he sold the car to pay the staff payroll and

30:10

always the cash flow

30:12

is tightest in retail around two points

30:14

in the year before Christmas and before

30:16

Easter. So this was October time. We

30:20

then went and bought a chameleon

30:22

phone and the chameleon

30:24

phone is a chameleon. It's

30:27

a pretty average phone but what it

30:29

does do is play a

30:31

really cool catchy tune called Kama

30:33

Kama Kama Kama Kama Kameleon and

30:37

so that is nothing

30:39

to do with fashion but it

30:41

was everything to do about keeping

30:43

ASOS alive. It was the best

30:45

seller that Christmas cash flow crisis

30:48

avoided. Move on. So

30:50

there's an example of trying

30:52

something that actually worked out

30:54

that was technically off mission

30:56

but on the way to

30:58

building a unicorn business

31:01

that ASOS became. So there's a good

31:03

example and cash

31:05

flow crisis avoided we moved on. Now many

31:07

years later when we celebrated our 15th anniversary

31:12

we went and got a couple

31:14

of chameleon phones and

31:16

we bought them off eBay and they're now vintage so

31:18

they're way more expensive and we had them

31:20

in the boardroom. We

31:22

also told staff all about that

31:24

because it's all about the legacy.

31:27

Nothing about what we do but everything about how we

31:29

got here and we called

31:31

one of our boardrooms the chameleon room. So

31:34

mental signals mental triggers of all the

31:36

things that we that you should think

31:38

about entrepreneurialism never be afraid to turn

31:41

left when others turn right. So all

31:43

of those things were woven

31:45

into how we inducted staff, how we

31:47

dealt with our teams and

31:49

how we symbolized it. You

31:52

grew the business from 200 million to

31:54

4 billion you said. Yeah. That's an amazing achievement.

31:56

Yeah I loved it. What do you think has

31:58

been the main reason

32:01

for this success? ASOS

32:03

were bloody good and

32:05

we had an amazing team who

32:08

was super passionate about what they were doing.

32:11

We without using phrases others

32:13

use, we

32:16

were being super disruptive, we were focused

32:18

on winning, we were focused

32:21

on building an amazing fashion destination

32:23

and it was an energy that

32:25

was palpable and lots of

32:28

the things we did was just set

32:30

our teams free and

32:33

it was yeah, give that one a go, okay? Give

32:35

that one a go, yeah. I mean,

32:37

another example when I was CEO is

32:41

one of the design team and

32:43

the women's whereby came up to me and said, Nick,

32:46

we wanna do some wedding dresses. Oh

32:48

no, no, we can't do wedding dresses. I

32:50

said, yeah, we can. I said, you're not

32:52

gonna give this,

32:55

our customers are hopefully best day of

32:57

their life being

33:00

a wedding dress in a plastic bag. No, no, no, we're

33:02

not gonna do that. I went, well, let's not do it

33:04

then. He said, no, no, we are, come and see it.

33:07

So I went downstairs into the product room

33:09

with them and the

33:11

product was amazing. Now,

33:14

it's not my best game but I did go, wow.

33:17

The prices were compelling and

33:19

they said, look Nick, we can get a bride done, dusted,

33:22

dress, garter, underwear, shoes,

33:24

handbag, 400 pounds. I

33:27

went, amazing. Okay, how you gonna pack it? Showed

33:29

me how they were gonna pack it in a box

33:31

that fits into the ASOS

33:33

white noise bag, set up a

33:36

separate line in the warehouse. They'd done all the work.

33:39

The only thing I had to say was, go do

33:41

it. And I went, you

33:43

thought about it girls, go do it. So they

33:45

basically just off their own backs, they were like, okay, we're

33:47

gonna come up with this concept, this idea and we're just

33:49

gonna sell it to you. Because we encourage

33:52

them to do that. So

33:54

we're building capability, encouraging

33:56

them to think differently, embedded

33:59

in everything. thing that Nick had started

34:01

and then codified in our values. And

34:04

yet in the following season we sold 9,000 wedding

34:06

dresses. Wow. And I got

34:09

loads of notes sent to

34:11

me from because of

34:13

next day delivery right. Sometimes you

34:15

have to get married in a hurry. And

34:18

so I got loads of letters from couples

34:21

going thank you

34:23

very much. Did X Y and Z.

34:26

My dress did turn up and I went on ASOS

34:28

and it came following day. It was brilliant. So I'm

34:30

never gonna shut the other people again. And I had

34:32

to get married in a hurry and this was perfect.

34:34

So I got loads of those things. Like you saved

34:36

the day. We say so save the day. Amazing.

34:39

So that was the vibe and you

34:41

know we were lucky to attract many

34:43

talented people in all functions. Talking

34:46

about successes let's look at some of the things

34:48

that went less well. What has been your biggest

34:50

failure there? ASOS.

34:55

I probably left too early and

34:58

I regret that I didn't finish

35:01

my natural term and

35:03

I should have done. Why

35:06

did you leave? We just

35:08

had a difference of opinion with the board. Some

35:11

of it was me, some of it was them and

35:14

sometimes you

35:16

need a more considered approach but

35:19

if you get hot-headed and emotional about something and

35:21

I was super emotional about ASOS because I was

35:23

in love with it. I probably wasn't thinking as

35:26

clearly as I should be. So

35:28

I could have that was one that's one

35:30

regret. In

35:32

terms of there

35:36

were I didn't categorize

35:38

anything we did at ASOS as

35:41

a failure. I

35:43

categorized it as a learning and

35:46

it's going right we've learnt from

35:48

that. Let's go again and I

35:51

used words for the organization a lot like it's

35:53

just a bump on the road. Right we've learnt

35:55

that let's not do that again or let's get

35:57

better. turn

36:00

around and say that's a failure. I didn't

36:02

use phrases like fail fast fail forward but

36:04

we thought that way. So every time someone

36:06

didn't work out just said bump on the

36:08

road guys go again. So

36:11

I don't think there were

36:13

any I can't think

36:15

of any big failures during

36:17

that time. We use them

36:19

as learning experiences and

36:22

if you're going to use those phrases

36:24

you have to behave like that as

36:26

a leader. So you therefore if there's

36:28

something that's not gone well you don't

36:30

lose your cool or get up

36:32

to get emotional with your team. You

36:34

have to be the coolest person in the room and

36:37

when you say it's a bump on the road what

36:39

we learn let's go again you have

36:41

to behave and mean that otherwise you

36:43

shut down something. So that was

36:45

how I tried to be now that

36:47

was my learning to get there but it was that's

36:49

how I tried to be. On

36:52

that point of you know when things are not

36:54

going well and you are the role

36:56

model for the rest of the team like you have

36:58

to be the one bringing

37:01

your best self forward so other people kind

37:03

of model that on you. How

37:06

did you feel being that role model? So that

37:09

was that wasn't a natural

37:11

place for me to be and so

37:13

I mean I love being the CFO. I love being

37:16

the CFO alongside Nick because Nick can

37:18

do all the jazz hands and I

37:20

could just make sure the execution was

37:22

happening and when there was

37:24

when there's bumps on the road Nick could

37:27

soak them up and that'd be supportive that

37:29

was great. So when I

37:31

became that person it was like okay

37:33

this is what it now feels like

37:36

being the CEO because

37:38

when there were things going and not going according to

37:41

plan the organisation then looks

37:43

at you go what do we do and

37:46

that wasn't something else comfortable with until I went

37:49

I've got to be comfortable So

37:51

I went back to the points I've just said be

37:54

cool be supportive encourage

37:59

yes be challenging but go

38:01

we've got to do better and ask.

38:04

Don't pretend you know. If you pretend

38:08

you know you'll get it wrong. It's

38:11

not the time to turn around and say we should have

38:13

done this. It's the time to go

38:15

what have we learned from this guys? How do we get better?

38:18

And the questions are subtly different

38:20

but when you ask like that

38:23

you find people come to

38:25

you with solutions rather than problems. If

38:27

you tell you build an execution

38:29

muscle and a tell and

38:31

do muscle not a stronger

38:34

muscle. That was how I pivoted. Now

38:36

that takes a lot to do

38:38

that and there's a bit where you

38:40

have to be there for comfortable being a

38:42

bit vulnerable going oh my god guys

38:44

what do we do now? And sometimes

38:46

I found that's the best thing you can do as a leader

38:49

because you haven't been chosen to

38:51

be CEO because you're

38:54

the smartest or

38:56

you've got all the answers and if you think that

38:58

you'll get it wrong or

39:00

you might get it wrong. You've

39:02

been chosen for something else and

39:05

so being comfortable express your own

39:07

vulnerability and asking those questions you

39:09

will find people bring you answers and

39:11

then your job is to choose. Make

39:14

the decision. Yeah. Yeah. I

39:17

love that you're saying that because absolutely you

39:19

can't have all the answers as a CEO.

39:21

Impossible. Because what's the point of having the

39:23

team? Correct. And

39:26

so I mean looking back

39:28

I found some phrases that I've picked

39:30

along the ways you can never

39:32

be a leader without followers. Right.

39:35

And so and if you

39:37

haven't got followers you will fail as a leader.

39:39

And so how do you create followership? Well

39:41

you have to therefore have

39:44

some basic humanity and

39:46

which is the basic man says

39:49

you've got to trust some people and

39:51

they've got to trust you and you've

39:53

got to know they've got your back.

39:55

They've got to know that you've got

39:58

their back. And then you've

40:00

created a safe place where they

40:02

can share their worries, their concerns and

40:04

their solutions. And you have to have

40:06

a place where bad news can travel

40:08

faster than good news. Good

40:10

news finds its way anyway. Bad news tends

40:12

to get stuck and it gets

40:14

stuck because people are scared of sharing it. Now

40:18

I used to talk about that all the time because I'm going,

40:20

look, I'd like to hear the bad

40:22

news a lot quicker because I might

40:24

be able to help you. If

40:26

I can't help you, I can at least unburden

40:29

you and you'll feel less worried and we've

40:31

got a chance of moving on faster. So

40:34

you've got to create that, that followship or

40:36

should not leader and see

40:38

you as only as good as his team or her

40:40

team. And you've got to create

40:42

that psychological safety where people can come to you

40:44

and you've got to be, you've got to bring

40:46

your own humanity into it rather than anything

40:49

else. And then you build a muscle

40:51

with people that scales, then you build

40:53

a muscle that grows and then you

40:55

build a muscle that gets better and

40:58

nothing is perfect. Life is not a game

41:00

of perfect. Neither is business. You are going

41:02

to have, you are going to drop the

41:04

ball. But every time you

41:06

drop the ball, don't yell, go,

41:09

right, what do we do differently? And

41:11

then you get learning as well. What

41:14

do your followers say behind

41:16

your back about you? They'll

41:19

probably tell you more than me, Maria. I

41:22

hope they go, Nick Backters,

41:24

Nick Trusseters and Nick

41:27

Shaped, the organisation and

41:30

in a way that I wanted to be part

41:32

of it. I hope they say that. They

41:37

won't all like me because

41:39

some type of leadership isn't a popularity

41:41

contest. It's not about winning an

41:44

election here. But I do

41:46

hope they'd say, I respect the decisions you

41:48

made and why you made them, even if

41:51

they weren't what

41:53

I wanted. So it's respect is

41:55

probably the most thing I'd

41:57

wish they'd say. I'd like them to

41:59

say. and understanding why I did it.

42:01

So if I did any decision I made, I

42:04

would normally explain why I'd done it. And

42:06

so even if you wanted something, me to do

42:08

something Maria, that I didn't agree with you, I'd

42:11

tell you why I had not done it. You might

42:13

not like it, but you'd understand and I've given

42:15

you the time to explain. You've

42:18

felt that you've left ASOS

42:21

too early. Yeah. And how

42:23

did the role that matches come about? So

42:26

post-ASOS, I was going to do

42:28

plural. And I

42:31

wanted to do plural because I didn't

42:34

think I'd find another exact role

42:37

where I had the same passion

42:39

for it. And I didn't want

42:41

to then do an exact role when I was

42:43

always comparing to what I did ASOS. And

42:46

I became the people, the feeling, the emotion,

42:48

what we're doing, how we're growing. I

42:51

went, I didn't think I can cope with

42:53

that comparison. And so let's

42:55

go and do something plural. And

42:57

I sort of lined up a few

43:00

things while I was going to do that. And

43:03

during that period post-ASOS, I

43:06

had a couple of meetings with

43:08

the APACs, the private equity partner who were

43:11

involved. And they're asking me a few questions.

43:13

I was doing a little bit of advisory

43:15

work for them and some others. And

43:17

they said, we'd like to have a look at matches. And

43:19

so I did, I gave them my view. And

43:23

they said, we'd like to run it. I said, I don't think it's for me.

43:26

They said, we'd really like to run it. And

43:29

so I went, well, if you do this and

43:33

you put this level investment in, then

43:35

I'll give it a go. And

43:37

I got curious. I

43:40

wanted it to be saved because

43:42

it was a British retailer. It

43:45

was everything in there was in my wheelhouse

43:47

apart from dealing with luxury. And

43:50

that was exciting too. And

43:53

I went, this is a British retailer with

43:55

a great heritage started by two British founders.

43:58

I want this to be turned around. be saved,

44:00

it needed saving and that's why I ended up

44:02

going, let's do it. I

44:05

knew there was there was upsides

44:07

and downsides but I

44:09

totally backed myself to give it

44:11

a go. Didn't work out

44:13

but I totally gave it a go. So

44:16

what went wrong at matches? What

44:19

went wrong was, well, I

44:21

meant to start with what

44:23

went right and

44:25

so we found a number

44:28

of cultural aspects

44:30

that needed fixing because it had

44:32

five CEOs in about as

44:35

many years. So when a company ends

44:37

up being run like Chelsea Football Club

44:39

you never end up getting strategies,

44:42

culture, ways of working that

44:44

stick. So the previous CEOs

44:46

were changed too frequently and

44:48

therefore whether they were all right or

44:50

wrong it doesn't matter if they were

44:52

changed within a year none of their

44:55

strategies or changes were enabled to be

44:57

embedded. So we need some fixing there.

44:59

So it needed a cultural reboot. It

45:01

needed new mission, purpose and values. So we put that

45:04

in there. So this is why we're here. That's the

45:06

purpose. This is where we go as a mission and

45:08

this is how we'll do it, which is the values.

45:11

It then needed a crunchy business plan and strategy behind it

45:13

which is what we were put in place and

45:16

then it needed new life breathing into

45:18

the management team. So I ended up

45:20

changing all the management team and

45:22

then deployed a new management team.

45:25

We then went there's some things

45:27

that are wrong. The curation wasn't

45:30

the curation. It was

45:32

too broad. It was a splattering

45:34

of product rather than a really

45:36

focused edit that was unbelievable. So

45:39

I went right we need to do that.

45:41

There was way too many dresses

45:44

going out dresses and shoes. I'm

45:46

like our woman customer is

45:48

not just going to wear expensive dresses and high

45:51

heels. She's going to hang out in casual

45:53

wear. She's going to want some lounge wear.

45:55

She's going to want some active wear. So

45:57

we've got to give her a ultimate edit

45:59

of look. product that suits her lifestyle.

46:01

She's not just gonna be wearing posh rocks and

46:03

our heels every day and our balance is wrong

46:05

so we did that. We cut

46:07

an awful lot of the brands to make it more

46:10

focused which is a hard decision but it

46:12

makes it more focused. We

46:14

had to remove a number of staff because it was

46:16

too there's too many, poorly 250. We had to relearn

46:19

digital marketing, relearn merchandising, refocus

46:22

the organization on contribution, refocus

46:24

on making money. We'd

46:27

halved the losses in year one so it

46:29

was only there 14 months and

46:32

unfortunately APACS didn't want to follow

46:34

on any further investment. They'd indicated

46:37

they'll give X,

46:39

they put initial half X in. When

46:42

we went back for the following they said the

46:44

markets changed we don't want to follow on which

46:47

was a real shame because we were

46:49

starting to make traction there's a number of deals

46:51

going but it had been loss making for four

46:53

or five years. Then

46:55

we got into the hands of Mike

46:57

Ashley through accelerated sale process and

46:59

Mike Ashley did what Mike Ashley does and

47:02

that was the end of matters. Now didn't

47:04

need to go into administration and it could

47:06

have been turned around or could have been

47:08

saved but it did need more investment and

47:11

so if APACS weren't prepared

47:13

to put the investment in Mike Ashley

47:15

certainly wasn't and there

47:17

were very other places where we could

47:19

do it. You need capital to do

47:21

a turnaround to give it a breathing

47:24

space to make the changes. Do

47:26

you think it's also timing? I mean

47:28

obviously given what we've been all the

47:30

aftermath after COVID and investors

47:32

being very very tight with money do

47:35

you think that played a part? Yeah

47:37

100% so the macro environment

47:39

was also really tough right so

47:41

luxury had been growing you know

47:44

by substantially for seven years

47:47

and it been growing not by

47:49

volume predominantly by price increases so

47:51

for five six seven years luxury

47:53

sales were up but prices were

47:55

at about average five percent per

47:57

annum and so The

48:00

macro environment hasn't

48:03

been great for 12-18 months in

48:05

the consumer market. Luxury style

48:07

has suddenly started to hit the buffers

48:10

round about July-August last year and

48:12

we saw bad

48:15

news with Farfetch, Net-a-Porter getting

48:17

into trouble and our

48:19

investment decision with Matias was at a

48:22

similar time of all of that. So

48:24

I don't blame APACs for their decision,

48:26

I wish they hadn't have done it

48:29

but I can see the context in the marketplace

48:32

would have been part of the decision making. What

48:36

do you think everyone

48:39

at e-commerce needs to know about

48:41

e-commerce? Right, so first

48:43

of all on the

48:45

e-commerce market there's a four-year period

48:50

during Covid and post Covid you

48:52

need to eliminate from your thinking.

48:54

So the two years of Covid

48:56

was just a super boost in

48:58

e-com that you'll never get again.

49:00

The two and a bit years

49:02

after of just being the pullback.

49:05

Now if you draw a straight line from 2019 and the

49:07

trend previously

49:10

you'll find 2024 e-commerce

49:12

penetration is exactly on the

49:15

line that we all expected

49:17

without this blip. Now

49:21

what's happened is post

49:23

Covid we all expected, me included,

49:26

is the pullback to be small

49:29

not to be as dramatic as what has happened so

49:31

it's gone like that and like that and

49:34

so you have this boost

49:36

and then you have this pullback but the

49:38

straight line trend is e-commerce is probably on

49:40

the same trajectory as it would have been

49:42

without the pandemic. So Wollicom

49:45

therefore continue to grow as

49:47

a channel 100%. Right,

49:50

so the Gen Z, the millennial

49:52

consumers who've only ever shopped on

49:54

their mobile phone in digital will

49:57

love experiencing stalls but they'll love

49:59

experiencing and continue to experience

50:01

far more on their smartphones in

50:03

the way that it always have been. That

50:05

consumer is getting more economic power and

50:08

will ripple through so you have to

50:10

build a very strong e-commerce offer, you

50:12

have to build stores if you want

50:15

to. The best model is stores, is

50:17

e-com and with some wholesale that's the

50:19

best model and so you

50:21

have to have a strong e-com offer to

50:24

future-proof your organization for the next wave of

50:26

customers. It's just we've been

50:28

with the data has been skewed by

50:30

the boost of COVID and the pullback of

50:32

COVID. Now what you need to know

50:34

to be a successful e-com,

50:37

focus on the customer, the

50:39

concepts are very similar you've got to be

50:42

great in you got to run the front

50:44

end beautifully and run the back end like

50:46

you're running a supermarket

50:49

and because the the margins are lower

50:52

but and so you've got to be

50:54

super tight on it. Conversion is the

50:57

eighth wonder of the world, focus on

50:59

conversion, get great at digital marketing, get

51:01

good at moving products around, get

51:04

good at building a product offer that drives

51:06

a strong conversion and

51:08

strong unit economics and it'll be

51:10

different for whether you sell cheap

51:13

clothing or value clothing or luxury

51:15

clothing, it's the same concept. Build

51:17

the front end that's beautiful, social

51:20

media, smartphones, apps and

51:22

then the back end run it really efficiently that's

51:25

very similar to a normal

51:27

retail business so it's very similar just

51:29

different application. So given

51:32

what you're talking about COVID having this

51:34

sort of you know

51:36

extreme down and followed

51:38

by extreme up and sort of another

51:40

blip, what

51:43

do you think is the future of e-commerce?

51:46

I mean you're talking about that it's back

51:48

to where it was had it just continued

51:50

without this period of time, what

51:53

do you think is the future of it? So

51:55

I can see in

51:57

fashion that 50 of

52:01

people spend will be

52:03

through an e-com channel in

52:05

the next period, the next cycle. I don't

52:07

know when but it will be. So

52:10

in 2019 30% of all clothing nearly in the

52:14

UK was bought online. Now

52:16

obviously during the pandemic that went up to high

52:19

90s and let's come back down again. So

52:22

I see 50% of it quite easily

52:24

in reach. Interesting.

52:27

And so therefore if you haven't built

52:29

an e-com offer that's capable of receiving

52:31

50% of your customers

52:34

spend you've left yourself exposed.

52:36

There's something you said earlier about when

52:38

you were at Matalan and you were

52:40

too focused on the long term but

52:42

not focusing on the short term at

52:44

least at that point in time. Is

52:47

there something to do with that as well because I mean

52:49

that obviously you have to react to

52:52

what's happening in the here and now

52:54

but keeping the long-term vision in mind

52:56

and it's almost like this ability to

52:58

manage polar opposites that you

53:00

that makes you successful like you can't

53:03

focus too much on one or the other. Yeah

53:06

so you could say that's spinning different plates

53:10

and or you could say manage

53:12

for today while building for tomorrow and

53:15

make sure because the day's context might

53:17

be very different and so

53:19

if the economic position

53:21

you're in means you can't invest in

53:23

the things for tomorrow keep today alive

53:25

to keep your powder dry then do

53:27

that so you always have to manage

53:30

today and tomorrow so manage today while

53:32

building for tomorrow but be clear when

53:34

you need to start switching

53:36

or pivoting. What advice would you

53:39

give aspiring CEOs? So

53:42

you don't

53:44

get picked to be CEO

53:46

necessarily because you're the best

53:49

at your execution or

53:51

functional discipline. You

53:53

get picked because somebody thinks you can

53:56

add something different and

53:58

so CEO when

54:00

you first appointed can do one

54:02

of two things. You

54:04

can run around every part of the organization

54:07

and get stuck in all the detail and

54:09

think you're helping or you

54:11

can step back and go I've

54:15

got to now exercise the muscle that someone

54:17

has seen in me and build

54:19

myself as a leader. And

54:21

so I've seen I've done both and

54:24

I've seen people do both. If you

54:26

start running around being involved

54:28

in all the detail and

54:31

you're effectively lost in transition.

54:33

And if you're lost in

54:35

transition you're not really helping your

54:37

team and you're not really doing

54:39

the things that the people

54:41

have chosen you want you

54:44

to do. And you find yourself

54:46

being the busiest person in

54:49

the organization and that

54:52

you find yourself not really making cut through

54:54

on anything. A

54:56

CEO there's probably

55:00

six to a dozen key

55:02

decisions that you have to make every

55:04

year tops and

55:07

they're the ones that only you can

55:09

make. The rest of

55:11

the decisions should be made by your

55:13

team and you

55:16

should enable them to be made by

55:18

the team. Yes monitor yes be on

55:20

top of the detail but make sure

55:23

you're making the right calls and they're

55:25

making the right calls. Otherwise you're following

55:27

each other around. So that's

55:29

my first advice is make

55:31

sure you've decided how you're

55:33

going to deploy yourself. And

55:36

I think my experience is the

55:38

six to twelve maximum decisions only

55:40

you have to make and give yourself the

55:42

time to do it. If you're

55:44

following your team around you're not doing what they want

55:46

you to do and need you to do and you

55:49

all should do in their way. If

55:51

the team aren't right change the team and

55:55

get people who want to be on your

55:57

mission high for aptitude as well

55:59

as x-men. experience, which

56:01

is how you are hired, and you

56:04

don't always think about it that way. Set

56:06

up a clear purpose, clear mission, clear

56:08

values, which only you can do, you

56:10

do with the team, and then you

56:12

galvanize people towards it. So

56:14

yes, you should be involved

56:17

in monitoring execution, but execution is

56:19

the responsibility of your functional directors.

56:22

You're ultimately accountable, so be on top of it,

56:24

but let them do it. So

56:26

those are the things I found. And

56:29

then the other bit is, be present

56:32

in all the places you need to be present.

56:34

Use every opportunity to shape the

56:36

organization. Don't be afraid to

56:38

repeat yourself. And repeat

56:40

yourself is going, guys, this is what we're about. Here's

56:42

our mission. This is how we do it. Because

56:45

it's reinforcing key messages that's

56:47

super useful. And

56:50

so don't be afraid to repeat yourself.

56:52

Don't be afraid to make the tough

56:54

calls and they'll respect you. When there

56:57

are tough moments, don't go invisible. Don't

57:01

go into the boardroom and

57:03

surround yourself by a PowerPoint. Be

57:05

present. Walk the floor more.

57:08

Do all hands. Be present at

57:10

the weekly team meetings, because they

57:12

will notice and people

57:14

will come and respond

57:16

to whatever messages you're

57:18

giving. So be present.

57:21

Always be present. Don't retreat when

57:23

there's tough moments. Build

57:26

your team. Trust your team. And then

57:28

use mechanisms. And so mechanisms

57:31

I always use is, and I learned them,

57:33

is no more than six to eight direct

57:35

reports. Because

57:37

you'll never create the humanity and

57:40

the trust if you've got 14.

57:43

You'll let down 14 people rather

57:46

than really working for six to

57:48

eight people. And when you

57:50

build six to eight direct reports, know something

57:52

about them, then there's something about you. They

57:55

trust you therefore, you trust them. And that

57:57

means you'll know the partner's name. You know

57:59

the children's name. you know when they've

58:01

got significant birthdays going on and give a bit

58:03

of you two. You've built a piece of trust

58:06

and that person will therefore run with you,

58:08

run for you and feel

58:10

like you've got her back and vice

58:12

versa. That's really important. And

58:14

if the person's, the people are wrong in the team, you're going to

58:16

have to change them. And

58:18

the first time someone ever said that to me,

58:21

I absolutely hated it when they

58:23

said you're going to have to fire a few people to

58:26

enable people to take you seriously. I

58:29

just thought what a complete nutter piece of... Just

58:31

to fire people just because rather than having

58:34

a reason to do that. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.

58:37

Well that's how I interpreted it. And I thought that was the

58:39

worst advice I ever heard. And

58:41

I went that's completely against

58:44

everything I stand for. But actually

58:47

sometimes I think it didn't

58:49

mean it, the guy didn't mean it the way it

58:51

came across. It was you're going to have to build

58:53

your own team and you're going to have to therefore

58:55

remove some and add some to get the shape of

58:57

the team right, which is for the benefit of the

58:59

organization. So it sounds brutal,

59:01

but actually it became

59:04

something that I went, so

59:06

it wasn't just because it was because you

59:08

now need to shape the team in your

59:10

flavor rather than expecting the same

59:12

things in the same construct with the same

59:14

players. That's interesting. So

59:17

you're a new CEO, you're going into

59:19

a business. How do you decide who

59:21

to replace? So

59:24

I read a book years ago

59:26

called The First Hundred Days. And

59:28

every new leader, I always give them the first

59:31

hundred days. And one

59:33

of them is talking about categorizing the capability of

59:35

the team you're working with. And

59:38

so you categorize them into capable

59:41

and disaffected, capable

59:43

and engaged. And I then try and

59:45

assess where they sit in that. And

59:48

once I've assessed where I sit in that, I know what I've got. I

59:52

know what I'm dealing with. And

59:54

I've not always done

59:56

this well. You then go, I need

59:58

a blend of people that... fill

1:00:00

in my gaps, some

1:00:02

that augment my strengths,

1:00:05

and some who are going to think differently

1:00:07

and be a bit maverick. Because you've then

1:00:09

got a blend of

1:00:11

interesting perspective, rather than

1:00:15

I'm going to hire six people

1:00:17

that look like Nick, think like

1:00:19

Nick and behave like Nick. Because

1:00:22

wouldn't that be dull? So it's

1:00:24

cognitive diversity, it's skills diversity, it's

1:00:27

different ways of thinking and behaving. Because within

1:00:29

that you get a cocktail of better ideas.

1:00:32

And your role is therefore to bring them

1:00:34

together as a team, navigate them team and

1:00:36

then choose the right or wrong direction

1:00:39

for them. And if you

1:00:41

get super talented to people like that,

1:00:43

that are high energy, highly engaged, it's

1:00:46

quite tough. It's also quite fun. How

1:00:49

do you avoid hiring clones? Actively

1:00:52

choose not to. So you

1:00:55

have to be very consciously aware. So

1:00:57

early in my leadership, you end up hiring people

1:01:00

who you think you get on with. That's

1:01:04

quite important, but not the most important. Do

1:01:07

you think that it's also important, it's

1:01:09

actually more important when the teams are

1:01:12

smaller and the business is smaller. And

1:01:14

as the business grows, it becomes something

1:01:16

that you have to be almost moving

1:01:18

away from. No, I think

1:01:20

it's really important at all scales of organization.

1:01:23

And so how we ended up

1:01:26

at the last couple of

1:01:28

teams I built, I started

1:01:30

to build mechanisms for testing

1:01:34

my judgment. So I built,

1:01:37

we used personality profiling,

1:01:40

we used some specific

1:01:42

ASOS values tests.

1:01:46

I made sure all the top team

1:01:48

spent two hours with an educational psychologist,

1:01:51

and I got the output from all of those. So

1:01:54

that gave me cumulative assurance that

1:01:56

my judgments and

1:01:58

assessments of the individual. were

1:02:00

supported by some sort of evidence.

1:02:03

And whether it made it better

1:02:05

or not, I don't know. I felt like I was

1:02:07

making better decisions on the back of it, because I

1:02:10

got some cumulative evidence

1:02:12

to help me go, this is the right person.

1:02:16

I think it's important to have the intention.

1:02:18

And as you said, looking for evidence, whatever

1:02:21

the structure is, that

1:02:23

you are asking yourself

1:02:25

those questions and looking for that evidence

1:02:27

rather than making assumptions. It's

1:02:30

really easy to go, this lady's

1:02:32

fantastic, we're gonna get on great. She's gonna

1:02:34

be great. And then you stop

1:02:36

searching for the evidence to support it,

1:02:38

because you've already made a decision. So

1:02:40

that's why I fight myself and go,

1:02:43

right, now let me go through the

1:02:45

process. Let me pause and reflect. And

1:02:47

my first adjustments might

1:02:49

be right. And if they are brilliant, but

1:02:51

let me put through the process

1:02:54

to make sure I'm absolutely cool. And

1:02:56

then you bring colleagues in to get a

1:02:58

validation. So always bring colleagues in to get

1:03:00

a validation. Has there

1:03:03

been a moment where maybe early

1:03:05

on, because it seems that you have figured this

1:03:07

out, that you've really liked someone

1:03:09

and thought I'd really get on with them,

1:03:11

so let's just go for it, let's hire

1:03:13

them. And then it went wrong. Yeah,

1:03:15

I've done that. What happened? It

1:03:17

went wrong. And- How

1:03:20

wrong? And people decisions

1:03:23

like that. I mean, some of

1:03:25

my, back to my earlier

1:03:27

question, some of my biggest

1:03:29

mistakes at ASOS were

1:03:31

all about people decisions. And

1:03:34

it's choosing the wrong person that

1:03:37

I thought was right, and then not

1:03:40

choosing to react to that when

1:03:42

I should have done. Those are my

1:03:44

worst mistakes, because they

1:03:49

tend to leave landmines that blow up. They

1:03:53

tend to leave bruises that aren't

1:03:55

great. You think they're

1:03:57

operating under the values and approach. that

1:04:00

you have discussed with them

1:04:03

and you find out later that they're not and

1:04:06

it tends to unsettle the

1:04:08

organisation, the execution and

1:04:10

isn't cool. So it's

1:04:13

one of those where I would say those have

1:04:15

been my things I wish I'd have done acted

1:04:17

faster when I got it wrong. I'd

1:04:20

still take a

1:04:24

decision on someone if I thought yeah he or she

1:04:26

is going to be great but if I've

1:04:29

got it wrong I need to move faster. It's

1:04:31

quite interesting because it takes a bit of time for

1:04:33

you to realise you've made a mistake

1:04:35

because you want them to work out because you're involved

1:04:37

in it. Then you end

1:04:39

up looking for supportive information to prove

1:04:42

that you're right and you

1:04:44

might not listen to some of the feedback from the

1:04:46

team because what you see is great and

1:04:49

that that passage of time is

1:04:51

quite potentially damaging. Confirmation

1:04:54

bias. Yes. I've

1:04:56

chosen this person and therefore I'm right

1:04:59

and so you look for things support that you're

1:05:01

right even though when it's going wrong. Like

1:05:04

you don't look for evidence against your

1:05:06

decision. And it doesn't mean the bad people

1:05:08

or doesn't mean not capable people it just means

1:05:11

the construct the circumstances the environment isn't right for

1:05:13

them. Yeah. And so it's your role and fortune

1:05:15

as a leader to act upon that. What's

1:05:18

the saying? High,

1:05:20

slow, fire fast. Yeah I

1:05:22

agree with that and you

1:05:24

know you asked me earlier about biggest mistakes.

1:05:26

I forgot to tell you that those will

1:05:28

be my biggest mistakes. Not following that advice.

1:05:32

It's pretty much every CEO I

1:05:34

speak to that's one of their biggest failures.

1:05:38

Not firing people

1:05:40

soon enough. Yeah you

1:05:43

tend to know here in your

1:05:45

gut before you've processed it in your

1:05:47

mind and your mind overrules your gut

1:05:49

for too long. Interesting. I

1:05:51

actually think it's a bit of both. It's

1:05:53

like knowing how to separate and

1:05:57

work with both because the gut

1:05:59

is obviously telling. you something based on

1:06:01

your experience, but your gut

1:06:03

can also fool you into thinking that

1:06:05

you need to look for evidence for

1:06:07

it. Because you'd also, because

1:06:10

the gut is like, well, I'm usually right.

1:06:12

So why am I wrong in this instance?

1:06:14

You know what I mean? It's like, it's,

1:06:16

it can play against you as well. So

1:06:19

I think it's being intentional, but also learning

1:06:21

to listen to your instincts, but knowing when

1:06:23

to question your instincts as

1:06:25

well. Totally agree. Because when

1:06:27

the two are in sync, then you're

1:06:29

like, I know now and I know

1:06:32

why this isn't working. And then there's,

1:06:34

there's another bit that I do a lot

1:06:36

of is I will, I will

1:06:39

take someone and, and

1:06:41

let them have an arm and choose

1:06:43

someone and give them allowable

1:06:45

weaknesses as long as those

1:06:48

allowable weaknesses are within something

1:06:50

that's important to me or not important to me.

1:06:52

And so, and that's the bit where I'll

1:06:55

give them room to grow on that. That's

1:06:58

important too. Give them room to grow.

1:07:00

Yeah. Because we've all got weaknesses, right? And

1:07:02

people can surprise you. 100%. And given the right

1:07:06

environment, people can really like level

1:07:08

up and step up into their

1:07:10

potential and learn and change and

1:07:12

grow. But if, and this

1:07:15

is where you're talking about giving that space,

1:07:17

you can't do that when you

1:07:19

don't have space. There's something magical

1:07:21

about backing someone, letting

1:07:23

them know they're backed, telling them

1:07:25

where, where they could be even

1:07:28

better. And then watching them be

1:07:30

even better. Something really rewarding

1:07:32

and magical about it for both. And

1:07:35

so that's one of the beauties of being a

1:07:37

leadership role. You can have those moments. So

1:07:41

I like those moments. You had

1:07:43

experience of that early on for yourself. Yeah.

1:07:46

You've seen how that can make a massive

1:07:48

difference to your life. Totally. Early on

1:07:50

with, with a guy said, come and

1:07:52

try this early on with,

1:07:56

with other circumstances. So definitely

1:07:58

something I'll enjoy. because I definitely

1:08:00

was someone that benefited by

1:08:03

someone believing. It's

1:08:06

interesting that the thread through

1:08:08

your career is this ability

1:08:10

to pivot and evolve and

1:08:14

step into a role. So for example,

1:08:16

going from, you know, not

1:08:18

knowing what you're doing, it's like, okay, accounting,

1:08:20

then going into KPMG and

1:08:22

then going into a retailer

1:08:24

and then from retailer going

1:08:27

into an e-coms business. So

1:08:29

having and going from a, you know, finance

1:08:31

to then CEO. So

1:08:34

they're quite big transitions with

1:08:36

regards to having to grow

1:08:39

into something or

1:08:41

change. It's almost like many

1:08:43

reinventions. Yeah, great. So

1:08:46

the, I mean, my phrase, if

1:08:48

you ask me is we're forever work in

1:08:50

progress. And one day I'll

1:08:52

be a great leader until that day, I'll keep getting

1:08:54

better. And every time

1:08:56

there's an opportunity to expand and grow and

1:08:58

build new muscles, I tend to take it

1:09:00

and then try and back myself to make

1:09:02

it happen. And

1:09:06

you know, learn and listen from others around.

1:09:11

Those are the key things is

1:09:13

having the humility and awareness and

1:09:15

the presence to go. This

1:09:18

is one of those moments where I need to

1:09:21

ask, learn rather than say and do. So

1:09:24

looking back now, what advice would you give your

1:09:27

younger self? Don't worry,

1:09:29

it all turned out fine. You'll

1:09:31

be all right. You don't need to work so

1:09:34

hard. Well, no, I wouldn't say I'd say still

1:09:36

work hard, but I was joking. It's because

1:09:38

it's such an interesting question because

1:09:41

it's like that whole concept of

1:09:43

time travel. If you go

1:09:45

back and change something, will your whole life

1:09:47

turn out differently? So had you told yourself

1:09:49

that everything's going to be all right, would

1:09:51

you have worked as hard as you did?

1:09:54

That's a great question, Maria. I don't know

1:09:56

is the answer, but you find yourself when

1:09:59

people ask you. questions you find self

1:10:01

saying things that you think now

1:10:03

that you I know damn well

1:10:05

I didn't do and it's

1:10:09

you then have to go yeah I know I

1:10:11

never did that but the it's

1:10:14

one of those where do as I've now

1:10:16

learnt rather than do as I did because

1:10:18

you'll save yourself a love emotion a lot

1:10:20

of heartache a lot of a lot of

1:10:22

angst so I would say go back if

1:10:25

I did go back and say damn well

1:10:27

it'll all work out fine I

1:10:29

probably wouldn't have had the same focus

1:10:31

and endeavor looking back I was probably

1:10:34

quite a driven individual I was quite

1:10:36

pushy and I might not

1:10:39

need to have been all of those characteristics

1:10:42

but it might not have got me to where

1:10:44

I got to so I don't know the answer

1:10:47

hmm I do think

1:10:49

about that question because the reason why I

1:10:51

started thinking about it more I interviewed Mark

1:10:53

Curry the co-founder of the Inkey list yeah

1:10:55

and he said well I wouldn't say anything

1:10:57

to myself and if I did I probably

1:10:59

wouldn't have listened to it anyway and I

1:11:01

thought that's really interesting like

1:11:04

would you there's some reason to life

1:11:06

being unpredictable that you don't know what's

1:11:08

gonna happen because if you

1:11:10

do you would definitely make decisions in a

1:11:13

different way yes you would

1:11:15

and there's there's a number of

1:11:17

sliding doors that are probably best

1:11:19

to have gone through without

1:11:22

the knowledge of what might happen yeah it's

1:11:24

this idea like had I done

1:11:26

that I was like it should

1:11:28

I have be regretting this decision

1:11:31

yeah I'd say I don't know the

1:11:33

answer that but there is one thing

1:11:35

I did there's another thing that I do that

1:11:38

I do reflect on and

1:11:40

I reflect on in current in current

1:11:42

some of the current workforce is

1:11:45

there's a bit of resilience that

1:11:48

I think people can't be

1:11:50

taught that you have to learn and

1:11:53

then I worry a lot about it

1:11:56

so one of the aspects I think

1:11:58

that makes people successful is

1:12:00

not whether they're super visionary,

1:12:02

not with the great leaders, not with

1:12:05

the great functional experts. I think they're

1:12:07

all part of the ingredients and they're

1:12:09

important. But there's a little bit of

1:12:11

resilience and the resilience is,

1:12:13

you're going to get knocked back a few times.

1:12:15

You're going to move sideways before you move up.

1:12:18

Someone's going to not give you that pay rise

1:12:20

quite often until you get the promotion. It's

1:12:23

how you cope with those moments. There's

1:12:27

many people where in

1:12:30

the previous life where they've gone, well, I've been here six months now,

1:12:32

so when am I going to be a manager? Well,

1:12:35

you've got quite a way to go. Well,

1:12:38

why aren't I director? Well, you're

1:12:40

going to have to be 10 years

1:12:42

imposed to become a director. Well, what does

1:12:44

she do that I don't do? There's quite

1:12:47

a lot actually. Then

1:12:49

there's a bit of I'm out then. There's

1:12:51

a bit of how you cope with

1:12:53

that journey as a person, as an

1:12:55

individual. There's nothing wrong with being pushed,

1:12:57

there's nothing wrong with asking. But the

1:13:00

resilience needs aspects. You're going to be

1:13:02

knocked back way more than you're going

1:13:04

to be promoted. You have

1:13:06

to wait far longer than you really want to, and you're

1:13:08

going to have far more bumps on the road than

1:13:10

you really want to. So it's coping those

1:13:12

bumps on the road. They're

1:13:15

the galvanizing moments. They're the things that

1:13:17

shape you as a person, how you

1:13:19

cope with the bumps and how

1:13:21

you rise from the bumps, because you're going

1:13:23

to have bumps. And

1:13:25

the same with an organization. Every

1:13:28

bump you go through as an organization,

1:13:30

it's how you galvanize the change from

1:13:33

it. And as a person, it's

1:13:35

exactly the same. Whatever the bump is, it's

1:13:37

how you rise from it that ends up

1:13:39

defining you and ends up defining an organization.

1:13:42

So there's something about resilience that I think

1:13:44

is something I've talked a lot

1:13:46

about with people I work with. Now, they look at

1:13:48

me and just think, he would say that, but I

1:13:50

actually think it's really important. So what's

1:13:52

kept you going? What do you think has made

1:13:54

you resilient? It's

1:13:56

a really good question. So this...

1:14:00

There's various moments, when

1:14:03

I qualified as a charge of accountants and

1:14:05

passed the exams and got through that, there

1:14:08

was a piece where I went, well I'm

1:14:10

now smart enough to figure

1:14:13

things out and pass some pretty tough exams. I'm not very

1:14:16

well to do it, plenty have done it and harder. But

1:14:18

that gave me an awful lot of confidence that

1:14:20

I'm going, I've now got the mental resilience and

1:14:23

capability to figure things out. But

1:14:25

that's only part of the equation. And

1:14:28

then on the emotional aspects of resilience,

1:14:32

I've developed a technique where I go, I

1:14:35

catastrophise and

1:14:38

look at the worst outcome and

1:14:40

take myself through that outcome where it's

1:14:43

visceral and then I'm like, is

1:14:45

that it? And so

1:14:47

when I get to the place where, is that it? If

1:14:50

that's the worst thing that can happen, I then build myself

1:14:52

back up from it and go, right, well let's go for

1:14:54

it. I now know what the worst

1:14:57

thing that can happen is, it ain't that bad. And

1:14:59

so I'd like to avoid that. And

1:15:01

then I then feel personally equipped

1:15:04

to authentically say,

1:15:06

we're going to do this team because I've

1:15:08

envisaged it, it ain't that bad. And

1:15:11

there are very few things that really are that bad. In

1:15:15

business there's other things that can be. But

1:15:19

when you catastrophise it and then bring it

1:15:21

back to the present and go, okay, I

1:15:23

feel empowered to go for this. I think

1:15:25

I have equipped myself. That's

1:15:27

the technique I do. So but

1:15:30

you know, I read someone,

1:15:32

someone's article the other day

1:15:34

about resilience and it was

1:15:36

a CEO of an American tech firm. And

1:15:39

he said something like, the

1:15:41

only way I can advise

1:15:44

you on being resilient is to

1:15:46

endure suffering. So if

1:15:48

you endure suffering, you'll

1:15:50

be resilient. So in the kindest possible way,

1:15:52

I wish you all suffering. Something

1:15:55

like that is what he said, which I thought

1:15:57

was really interesting. And

1:15:59

because it's It's one of those

1:16:01

things where resilience comes with just

1:16:03

judgment, experience, wisdom, and experiencing it,

1:16:06

and then how you cope with it. And then you

1:16:08

go, I went through that and I'm still here. It's

1:16:10

all fine. We can go again.

1:16:12

So it's an interesting aspect. I think

1:16:14

it's very hard to avoid suffering. And

1:16:18

I think our problems actually stem from trying

1:16:20

to distance ourselves

1:16:22

from it and from like shutting it

1:16:25

off rather than just going through

1:16:27

it. That's what

1:16:29

I've experienced. Like the more you don't

1:16:32

deal with the difficult things,

1:16:35

the harder it is to move

1:16:38

forward. They

1:16:40

become, it's a bit like, as I

1:16:42

was saying earlier, what are the things I'm carrying that I

1:16:44

need to let go of? Because they're

1:16:47

holding me back. So let's get rid of those.

1:16:49

What are the things I need to carry

1:16:51

forward? Let's carry them forward. And then I've

1:16:53

shed that bit and I go again. You're

1:16:56

in the book called Great by Choice.

1:16:59

No. Jim Collins. I've

1:17:01

read lots of Jim Collins, not that one. Good

1:17:04

to Great is one and Built to Less

1:17:06

is another. Yeah. So in

1:17:08

Great by Choice, he talks about sort of 10 Xs. So

1:17:11

companies that have outperformed by

1:17:13

at least 10 times the

1:17:15

market and

1:17:17

the different qualities they all

1:17:19

had. And one of the

1:17:21

things he talks about is, well, discipline. So

1:17:24

this idea, he calls it like the 20

1:17:26

mile march. So no

1:17:28

matter what the weather, you still

1:17:30

do 20 miles a day. You don't need

1:17:32

to go more than that. But even if

1:17:34

it's like, it's really stormy outside, you still

1:17:36

kind of like do it. So

1:17:38

this idea of building yourself up

1:17:41

to perform at a certain optimal

1:17:43

level, regardless of the conditions and

1:17:45

not overstretching yourself on the good

1:17:48

days either. The other

1:17:50

thing he talks about is this

1:17:53

idea of not going below the

1:17:56

death line. And this is

1:17:58

what you're talking about doing almost this sort of. every

1:18:00

mortar of like what all of the things can

1:18:02

go wrong and figuring out

1:18:07

all of the potential things that might

1:18:09

happen that not so great and coming up

1:18:11

with solutions

1:18:13

for them and then thinking, okay, you know

1:18:15

what, we know if this happens and this

1:18:17

happens, we already have an idea of how

1:18:19

to respond to it. Should

1:18:21

that happen? I thought that was really interesting.

1:18:24

So this, what does it call it? Productive

1:18:26

paranoia. Yep. I

1:18:29

did follow that. And so, so

1:18:31

yeah, I know it's a book

1:18:33

that could probably be an article, but

1:18:37

the concepts that he talks about today are really

1:18:39

interesting. You

1:18:42

talked about having sort of

1:18:44

this portfolio career. I mean, there's a

1:18:46

lot of things that we haven't covered.

1:18:48

I mean, you're on the board of

1:18:51

several companies. Is that what you envisage

1:18:53

continuing doing? Is that your future? That's

1:18:56

a good question. So I really enjoy

1:18:58

the companies I'm on the board of

1:19:00

and advise of. I really enjoy because

1:19:03

I like working with the

1:19:05

mostly founder led and your

1:19:07

youngish entrepreneurs. And I love

1:19:09

it because they want

1:19:12

advice and there's things they haven't yet experienced

1:19:15

or mistakes they haven't yet made.

1:19:18

And again, no, no, don't try that one. Try that one. That's

1:19:21

a great idea. Give it a go.

1:19:23

So that's really good fun. But I think

1:19:25

I'm I think I'm currently in

1:19:27

the moment where I think I want to be

1:19:29

another CEO, but I'm not sure whether I do.

1:19:31

So I'm kind of going I

1:19:34

think I want to run another organization because

1:19:36

I love building teams. I

1:19:38

love galvanizing change. I love getting stuff done.

1:19:41

But actually, I'm at a moment where I might

1:19:43

just take a couple more non-exec

1:19:45

style roles, advisory roles. So I'm currently

1:19:47

figuring it out. So that's what my

1:19:49

summer is about, trying to figure out where I want to go

1:19:51

and see what's coming. And that's what I'm thinking

1:19:53

about at the moment. Hmm. Well,

1:19:56

I wish you all the best. Actually, before we

1:19:58

go, if you were to describe. what leadership

1:20:00

means to you in three words. What is that?